Talk:Nair

"Martial race" in lede

Reference---Durato Barbosa's book 16th century--- These nairs besides being all of noble descent have to be armed as knights by the hand of the king or lord with whom they live and until they have been so equipped they cannot bear arms nor call themselves nairs but they enjoy the freedom and exemption and advantages of the nairs in many things In general when these nairs are seven years of age they are immediately sent to school to learn all manner of feats of agility and gymnastics for the use of their weapons First they learn to dance and then to tumble and for that purpose they render supple all their limbs from their childhood so that they can bend them in any direction And after they have exercised in this they teach them to manage the weapons which suit each one most That is to say bows clubs or lances and most of them are taught to use the sword and buckler which is of more common use among them In this fencing there is much agility and science And there are very skilful men who teach this art and they are called Panicars 1 these are captains in war These nairs when they enlist to live with the king bind themselves and promise to die for him and they do likewise with any other lord from whom they receive pay This law is observed by some and not by others but their obligation constrains them to die at the hands of anyone who should kill the king or their lord and some of them so observe it so that if in any battle their lord should be killed they go and put themselves in the midst of the enemies who killed him even should those be numerous and he alone by himself dies there but before falling he does what he can against them and after that one is dead another goes to take his place and then another so that sometimes ten or twelve nayrs die for their lord We have a "cn" tag on the term "Martial race" in the lede; looking over gBooks, I see plenty of mentions of their being martial, but not seeing much really explicit that they were classified as a martial race in the same way as the Rajput (and to a lesser degree, the Maratha). I think we can easily find sources saying "considered as" but "classified" is a bit more explicit and would require something pretty firm and authoritative. I would really like to see something too to verify the claim that they were de-listed as Marital by the British after that failed uprising. I did find a ref saying that after the uprising the Brits kept them out of the military, but again, that is a general observation, whereas "de-listing" is quite precise and specific and requires a more explicit ref. Anyone have any good materials for the cite, or are y'all okay with broadening the phrase to denote more general perceptions and less official decrees? MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The entire sentence should be removed. Also the next sentence that immediately follows. It is not because there are no reference to martial status, but because there is no need to mention British in the lede. Brits are only one of many Foreign powers who colonized India, and mentioning them alone in the lede is surely undue weight. Btw, this is KondottySultan with new username. --Nair (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I have been searching also, and yesterday did a little tidying up at the linked article while looking for a corroborating cite there. Something needs to give, I feel. Especially since there have been several appeals here for this info + the tags have been in place for a while.

I do not understand Nair's point about weight (are you sure that you can use that name, btw? it sounds as if you are representing a group & so could be against policy). - Sitush (talk) 07:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not a new username, it is usurped from another years-old account. The usurpation itself was done by one of those administrators. There are many such usernames: User talk:Ezhava, User talk:Brahmin, User talk:Mexican, User talk:Canadian, User talk:Arab, User talk:America "Nair" is singular and used by millions as a surname. Therefore it is not against any Wikipedia policy. --Nair (talk) 09:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, though your raise an interesting point about the British and WP:UNDUE, I would counter-argue that "the British labeled the Fooian caste a Martial Race" is an extremely popular sentence put into WP caste articles. I personally would not object to that phrase being removed, and more general statements about the military nature of the Nair being put into the lede, though I would submit that the British limiting them from military service, but then later allowing the Nair Brigade to form, is worth mentioning in the lede. I will BEBOLD and tweak that sentence now, but I'm open to counter-suggestions, or just revert with no hard feelings if you object and can explain why here. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Matthew, Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. I strongly opine that when it comes to Hindu castes, their status or recognition during the Hindu rulers is what counts. That is, the recognition Nairs recieved from Europeans/Muslim rulers/Buddhist emperors is not at all relevant when determining their caste-status or whether they are "martial race" or not, etc. Only local Hindu kings were loyal to caste system and hence the historical status of Nairs should be determined on the basis of how they were officially treated by Hindu kingdoms, such as Travancore. Seriously, I am wondering why you people can't find the current notation in the lede of British raj inappropriate. Four European powers colonized the region: Portuguese, French, Dutch and finally English. Then how can we mention British alone in the lede? We read from the body part that Portuguese also recruited Nairs in their army. This means that if Brits are mentioned in the lede, Ports also should be mentioned. If Brits had a list of "Martial races" then French could have another such list. Again colonial period is only one phase of the long history of Nairs, but this phase was given undue importance. (Not only in the lede, but throughout the article.) --Nair (talk) 02:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that if we were discussing colonists then mentioning only one of the colonising nations would be undue weight. However, the reason that the Brits are mentioned in the lead is not because they colonised the place but because the Nairs were (allegedly) a classified as a martial race at that time. The Portuguese (apparently) did not do so. Your argument is based on a false premise. - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Following are the facts which could be easily traced. [Theres one thing i'd like to know. What interests you so much in Nair's Sitush ? I'm very curious about this since the way you've like locked up the description and monitoring everything. Are you somekind of owner or moderator who would need convincing to "allow" people to make changes or contribute to Nair description ? Do you work for wikipedia ? ]

I dont think any reason why you should not consider the following quotes which were made during their times unlike the kinds authors have researched and come up with recently.

1510.—“The first class of Pagans in Calicut is called Brahmins. The second are Nair, who are the same as the gentlefolk amongst us; and these are obliged to bear sword and shield or bows and lances.”— Varthema

1563.—“…The Nairs who are the Knights.”—Garcia

1755.—“The king has disciplined a body of 10,000 Naires; the people of this denomination are by birth the Military tribe of the Malabar Coast.”—Orme

1661. - “Olive colored they (Nair Women) grow their ears long and consider it fashionable, they wear gold and silver ornaments in the big ear holes... They grow hair and tie it in a peculiar fashion on the head. Chewing betel leaf is common and their teeth are thus often black in color. From a very early age they get military training, though fierce they are also well behaved, which is the custom here…….These Nairs rarely laugh…They are born in Noble families and are adept warriors. They come out with sword in one hand and shield in the other. They are a proud and arrogant people.” - Logan

1661.- “"... it is strange how ready the soldier of this country is at his weapon...they are all gentlemen and are termed Nayars ... they send their children to (Kalaris) when seven years old and their body becomes so nimble and bends as if they had no bones” - Logan

1603. - “The men of war which the King of Calicut and all other kings have is Nair…..each being a gentleman……their women be of great beauty and rare to catch sight of…..possessing fine neat features….befitting the noble class” - John Kanding

"...On the west coast there are a few curious distinctions that indicate, apparently, difference in racial origin. The first of these instances is that of the Nair, the military caste of Malabar. Their traditions point to the north as their native land; they are light in colour, in very great contrast to the rest of the castes of the tract, have retained the custom of polyandry, with a good deal of serpent worship. It appears that they advanced upon their present tract by way of the coast higher up, but how they got there does not appear. As with the Arya, they found a dark race in possession and enslaved them on their estates, where they labour to the present day. In the same tract, too, there is a class of Bráhmans, the Nambudiri, of remarkable fairness of complexion, and noted for their rigid ceremonial puritanism. Then, again, in the track of the Nair's alleged progress, we find a peculiar caste of Brahmans, partly occupied in the cultivation of spices and betel nut, but settled mostly above the Gháts, and not therefore so well sheltered from foreign influences as the Nair, who sought the coast. These Havig or Haiga Bráhmans show their connection with the Túlu country in their speech, and, like the Nairs, attribute to their caste a serpent origin in Rohilkhand, a statement borne out by their title. Between these we have a class of female temple servants of an equally light complexion amidst a universally dark population.."( Jervoise Athelstane Baines , ( 1893 ), General report on the Census of India, 1891 , London , Her Majesty's Stationery Office , p. 184) ↑

"Before quitting the country (Kerala) Hyder Ali Khan by a solemn edict declared the Nairs deprived of all (social and political) privileges and (ordered) not to carry arms. This ordinance was found to make the submission of the proud Nairs absolutely impossible because they would have thought death preferable to such humiliations and degradation. Therefore, Hyder Ali Khan by another ordinance, consented to restore all social and political privileges including carrying of arms, to the Nairs who embraced the Mohammadan religion. Many nobles had to embrace Islam; but a significantly large section (Nairs, Chieftains and Brahmins) chose rather to take refuge in the kingdom of Travancore in the South than to submit to the last ordinance"- Prince Ghulam Muhammad of Mysore

"The Nairs of Malabar who attained much celebrity in warfare....justly entitled born soldiers...by the virtue of their descent they must always bear arms..they constitute the third and the last of the honoured castes....a privilaged people....the Rajahs like the oriental monarchs are fond of exaggerating their importance and boast of the number of Nairs they have in their country and service to impress us (the portuguese) with the idea of their wealth and power" - The Book, Letters from Malabar

"I like to see these nairs who never care their lives who lead an army of similar people even against mighty ocean of enemies and fight to win like a hell-fire " - Lord Wellington

Also adding sne link. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vRwS6FmS2g0C&printsec=frontcover#v=twopage&q=nair&f=false I'll come up with better links. I have sribd scanned copied with proper descriptions and proof to support.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaryan Nair (talk • contribs) 19:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The quotes are ridiculously undue weight and Wikipedia does not exist to glorify a community, whether yours or that of anyone else. Your call to arms says it all, really. - Sitush (talk) 20:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

That was funny. Writing something on wikipedia wont glorify any person or group. I insist on changing it cause i'm pretty sure of what the reality is. I also asked whether you work for wikipedia. If yes then I wont waste my time for this stupid description. Otherwise i'd like to know who you are and what interests you so much in defaming a particualr group on some website, investing your time in some place which isn't related to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaryan Nair (talk • contribs) 08:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

None of us works for Wikipedia--we're all volunteers. As for the other points, no one is required to give out any personal information. And you need to stop the personal attacks, because you can't say someone is "defaming" another group unless you have evidence. Sitush's reasoned rejection of your undue quotes (which I agree with) is not "defaming". Qwyrxian (talk) 08:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in personal details. Just wanted to know what interests him in the description. I'm pretty sure the description is a collection of neagtive aspects, hence my curiosity.

Koyas

Will it be a bad idea that this article should have a section about the Muslim Nairs, i.e, Koyas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.137.139.236 (talk) 17:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps an entry in the See also section? Including anything more substantive would likely be awkward since the Koyas are a distinct group, are not Hindu and have their own article. Whether the See also mention is valid depends a lot on how accurate the Koya (Malabar) article is with regard to the claims of Nair origin. If there is a certainty of relationship then there might be scope for a paragraph explaining how the two groups diveged, but nothing much more. Well, that is my opinion at any rate. - Sitush (talk) 19:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Having now looked at the article in question, I note that it was replete with copyright violations and statements that were not supported by the cited sources. I do not yet know enough about the Muslim communities of southern India to fix these issues but clearly as things stand there is little to justify any inclusion here. I thought it was odd that despite all my reading around the Nair subject I was unable to recall a mention of the Koyas! Of course, the common origin may still be correct but it would need some decent verifying sources. - Sitush (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Koyas do not have any connection with Nairs. Koyas are Brahmin converts. Koyas never practiced Sambandhams. They never allowed other castes to have sexual relations with their women. They were landlords and merchants, not servants like Nairs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.212.73.128 (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

They practised sambhandam with the arab merchants from yemen.Koyas were muslim converted from nairs,they practised marumakkathayam as a sign of it.They conversions were supported by zamorin.These men fought wars like nairs and were called koyas(curropt form of khwaja meaning 'leader',nair also means the same).Nairs belong to warrior clan of kerala called malayala kshatriyas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by

117.213.50.48 (talk) 08:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC) The evidence of mohemadans practising sambandam relationship in ancient times can be obtained from the book "A New account of east indies" by Alexander hamilton who visited Malabar in late 16th centuary. I dont know from where do these people get information that nairs were mere servents.No community can achieve nobility by doing servile jobs. Also There's no evidence for your comment "koyas are Brahmin converts",cite sources if you have any or else remove it.Even Arakkal kingdom,the only muslim kingdom in malabar had nair origins(http://books.google.co.in/books?id=9mR2QXrVEJIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=malabar+manual&hl=en&ei=IoWUTsDfN8bYrQeqp8yuBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=arakkal&f=false). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.49.3 (talk) 18:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I think that you are confused. The article does not mention the Koyas at all. Let's just drop this subject, shall we? The inclusion of Koyas in this article is not going to happen any time soon, and probably not ever. If you want to discuss Koyas then do so at that article, not here. - Sitush (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

koyas are one of the oldest muslim ethinic group,their history date back to 13th century(Battle to capture thirunavaya temple,kozhikode koya was one of the commander of zamorins army in that mission).cited from malabar manual. The things mentioned by me is supported by strong evidences,doesn't craft history(like sadasivan fans' do).I personaly know certain koya families in calicut who follow marumakkathayam(koottukudumbambam as it is said now),where girls remain at their home even after their marriage.Nairs left marumakkathayam 100 yrs ago,koyas are still practicing it.marumakkathayam was not practised by brahmins(expect some families in palakkad). Koyas of calicut& Bunts of tulunadu are two ethinic groups which have historic connections with nair.Article bunt mentions 'bunt relations with nairs of malabar' and it will not be a bad idea to include section bunt in the article

Your personal experience(s) count for nothing in Wikipedia articles, I am afraid. Nor does mine. Bunts were mentioned in this article at one point but the source was hopeless, the point was tangential and the content was removed. I've dabbled with the Bunt (community) article but have not yet given it a really good clean up - it needs one. Unless there was a really close linkage - for example, the communities shared a caste association or they would intermarry but beyond the Bunt-Nair-Koya triumvirate - then I still do not see the point. If someone wants to read about Koyas or Bunts then they can go to the articles for those communities; if they are interested in who followed a particular marriage practice then they can go to ... etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Fake images?

Can I add CN tag to image captions? I'm not sure about this. Because atleast two of the images in this article seems to be misplaced. -Nair (talk) 01:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not tell us here & see if anyone has the answer? No need to post the image itself, the caption would suffice or, alternatively the filename wrapped in the nowiki tags like this (you'll have to edit this section to see the tags) - Filename.png - Sitush (talk) 09:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments and discussions made here may be ignored and forgotten, but a CN tag, once added, will remain there until a decision is reached. That is why I prefer to add tags. Anyway I will try to be optimistic. My concern is over two images. May be these things are already cited in the article, but I would like to be sure about it.

1. The So-called "Headquarters of the Nair Brigade"[1]: The image given here is that of present Legislative Museum, situated right at the heart of Trivandrum city. I have no doubt that this building had some official significance during the Travancore era. But do we have any reference to believe that this was actually the headquarters of the "Nair brigade"? Even then, was this building used solely as Nair headquarters or was it just one among many of its purposes? What exactly do we know about this?

2. Nair feudal chief belonging to the Ettuveetil Pillamar[2]: The source of this image is a self-glorification Website[3] which simply says "An Ettuveedan". The website does not give the source of this image, such as "Painting found on a tomb in ABC" or "Mural in XYZ palace" etc. Anybody can start a website and upload such images. We cannot take this until we have some proof that this image belongs to Ettuveettil Pillai. Again, which Ettuveettil Pillai? Ettuveetil Pillamar were eight warriors each from a different family, living in different villages. Even if this image belongs to one Ettuveedan, which one? The description of the image is in German which reads: "Ein Nayar aus der Gruppe der Pillai, zeitgenössische Darstellung um 1750" (Translation: A Nayar from the group of Pillai, contemporary illustration from around 1750). Pillai is a subgroup of Nair and there are thousands of Pillai families unrelated to Ettuveedans. I think we need to dig into this issue a little. --Nair (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Your raise great points; for 1) I suggest we briefly look into whether this building did indeed serve as a Bde HQ or no. For 2), unless we have any reason to believe it's specifically tied to Ettuveedans, it should be removed, or at least re-captioned if it still serves a use. Thanks for bringing up these details! I do think that there are some Public Domain pics of the actual Travancore Bde or Rgt to be found online, and those would probably be even better additions. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:47, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

So, would you suggest adding the "Citation Needed" tag or "Dubious - Discuss" tag? I hope it is OK to add tags to image captions. --Nair (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I suppose that you could but it doesn't serve any useful purpose since by the sounds of it the issue is being investigated already. If I were you then I would ping MatthewVanitas in a couple of days if there is no development. Rather than add a dubious/cite needed tag we should move straight to deleting the images unless the issue can be resolved. But give it a couple of days at least. Just my 2c. - Sitush (talk) 15:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It has been more than a week since the issue was raised and we have not recieved even a single response. Shall we act now or should we wait more? --Nair (talk) 03:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Not that I'm in charge of it, but I would suggest that we do as mentioned above: if the pic is germane to "Nair" at large but has a misleading caption, the caption and position in the page should be corrected. If it is not germane to "Nair" at large, I see no objections to removing it. Do you feel confident that the Legislative Museum has not previously served as the Nair Brigade HQ? If so, definitely remove it, or if it was previously so, clarify in the caption. Thanks for reminding us about this ongoing issue. MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, now I am going to remove both the images. Since you can't prove a negative, it is up to them (supporters of the use of these images here, if any) to prove the positive. We always have the option of re-adding the images once we have sufficient citations. Thanks. --Nair (talk) 08:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Add some polyandry pics, since the Nair wikipedia page is all about polyandry. Cheers. Nairs are people who practice polyandry. And that nair brigade image is nothing but the place where they practice polyandry. Have fun now and hope you live in peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.202.42.194 (talk) 05:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 116.203.27.249, 3 October 2011

" I like to see these nairs who never care their lives who lead an army of similar people even against mighty ocean of enemies and fight to win like a hell-fire " - Lord Wellington

Nair Indian (Kerala): Hindu (Nayar) name denoting membership of the Nayar community, which is from Malayalam nayar ‘leader’, ‘lord’, ‘soldier’ (from Sanskrit naya(ka) ‘leader’ + the honorific plural ending -r). The Nayars were regarded as protectors of the land.

Nair The Keralolpathi(The origin of Malabar / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keralolpathi), which is a compilation of myths, mentions that Varuna had gifted land in Kerala to Nagas and the Nairs descended from these Naga ladies and Brahmin men. The affinity of the Nair community to Serpents and Serpent worship is indisputable and might have given rise to their reputed Naga origin. Naga worship might have also given rise to the mythical version of Nairs being Kshatriyas belonging to the Serpent dynasty (Nagavansham) who removed their sacred thread and migrated south to escape the wrath of a vengeful Parasurama. According to Chatampi Swamigal who interpreted old Tamil texts, the Nairs were Naka (Naga or Snake) Lords who ruled as feudal lords in the Chera kingdom. A Nair Lady, by Ravi VarmaOne finds mention of the Nairs during the reign of the King Rama Varma Kulashekhara (1020-1102) of the second Chera dynasty, when the Chera Kingdom was attacked by the Cholas. The Nairs fought by forming suicide squads (Chavers) against the invading force. Nairs gradually lost their supremacy over the land after the collapse of the second Chera kingdom

Aaryan Nair (talk) 07:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Not done. Wellington's comment does not seem particularly significant, nor do you provide a source for it. Similarly, you provide no source for your proposed definition of Nair, whereas the article already has sourced etymology. The Keralolpathi is a primary source and therefore is not reliable to verify statements in this article. Sorry. - Sitush (talk) 07:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Like sitush is going to add that. bring some hypothesis like nairs where once cherumans who stayed inside house & became fair skinned & say its from sadhashivan. thats all you want to make sitush 'seriously considering it' .Sesshomaru666666 (talk) 07:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

So what are you suggesting? Nairs originated from snakes? We all know that Keralolpathi is a heap of blunders and historians assume it ZERO historical value. Chattambi Swamikal is not a reliable source since he was a Nair with POV and most of his assumptions were based on legends and ballads.

Even though you stated in a ridiculing manner, the possible Cheruman origin of Nairs is not altogether impossible. Although all those blunders such as 'Serpent' race/dynasty theory, Kshatriya origin, arrival from Ahicchatra, etc were much talked, no serious discussions regarding the scientific origin of Nairs have taken place, since this article is yet to have a separate section concerning the "Theories of Origin". Many historians are of the opinion that Cheruman is a root caste from which many of today's castes have originated. They believe that Cherumans are the real descendents of ancient Chera people. Marriage with Brahmins may be a reason for some of those Nairs having fair skin, but majority of Nairs have same skin color as that of other castes. --Nair (talk) 02:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Mr Nair. Your username being Nair and you being interested in defaming Nairs. You are not Nair that i'm pretty sure of. I saw how desperate you were to remove those images related to Nair Brigade. Dont tell me you have video tapes of polyandry in your Machine. Every group and surname have their own wikipedia description but they never have problem of other people interested in its description and that too with such enthusiasm as if your whole life depends on it. What problem do you have if someone includes a good point about Nairs in wikipedia. I cant know how you locked that page but we have a huge community and we are very close to registering a case against these defaming tactics. I have ample of descriptions that state that Nairs were very bold proud and marital people. If there is a book called Marital Races of Undivided India and i take excerpts from it you directly reject it. I dont understand what you people gain from this. Anyways this is a clear case of jealousy and treachery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaryan Nair (talk • contribs) 06:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Please don't accuse other editors of "jealousy and treachery". It's not allowed per our policy against personal attacks. Second, the article is protected because unregistered editors were regularly adding unsourced information or removing unsourced information simply based on their own opinions about what is or is not "true", which is not how Wikipedia works. Third, could you please explain what you mean by "registering a case"? Do you mean a case here on Wikipedia? If you mean a legal case, I have to tell you that you are not allowed to edit Wikipedia while pursuing a legal case, and all threats of creating a legal case will result in your account being blocked, per WP:NLT. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:17, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Whatever. If you have protected the page in order to moderate the changes that people make in this page, why don't you let people make changes that have a reference to support the particular addition/changes ? As far as I have seen you guys bluntly say that this book/reference is not primary or should I say 'I don't like this book, hence not acceptable!' ? Is it so ? If I add something along with a reference of a book or article, will you let me make the changes ? i don't think that fair moderation would serve your purpose.

And about accusing other editors, I know that editor 'Nair' is not actually a Nair. This itself proves the intention of the so called editors. Removal of Nair brigade image with so much enthusiasm. http://www.keralapolicehistory.com/trvpol.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair_Brigade (Now please don't screw that page too) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaryan Nair (talk • contribs) 08:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the first four characters of your message - please use English on en-WP talk pages. The website keralapolicehistory does not appear to be anything special - can you provide any evidence that it is a reliable source? Your other link is to another Wikipedia article and as such is circular. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Would you rely on this link ?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/65661-travancore-nair-infantry.html

defence.pk has already been used in wikipedia as a reliable source in many places Aaryan Nair (talk) 10:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like a forum. Have you read our reliable sources policy? - Sitush (talk) 09:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, given your edits subsequent to my message immediately above, it would appear that you have not read the policy. Please could you do so. Forums are not reliable sources, nor is it particularly relevant that the same forums may have been used as references in other articles - see WP:OSE. Much as it would be nice to check all articles on English Wikipedia, there are getting on for 4 million of the things and it is beyond the ability of anyone to cope with that. - Sitush (talk) 10:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Aaryan Nair,

Removal an image (so-called Nair Brigade HQ) does not come under the definition of 'defaming'. I have removed two images for not having proper citation. I did it after discussing in this page. I am always open for re-adding the images once we have sufficient references. No addition or removal is final in Wikipedia.

Who told you that I must be a Nair to have this username? "Nair" does not always mean Nair caste. Do you know there are many north Indians like Mira Nair (director of film "Kama Sutra: A Tale of Love") who use this as a surname. There is also a popular hair removal product by the name "Nair".

Now, let me make it clear that I was not the one who added matters you (or other Nairs) accuse as 'defaming'.

• Dog legend - Not by me, neither do I support Sadasivan's reliability.
• Polyandry - Not by me
• Sudra status - Not by me

I do not understand your notation "jealousy and treachery". It is just your imagination that other communities might be jealous towards Nairs. In fact most of the other communities in Kerala are financially and socially much more forward today as compared to Nairs. Sorry, I don’t see anything enviable in Nair caste. ← Nair (talk) 17:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

@ usernam Nair,

So you dont envy Nairs. Fine by me. Why are you having a userid named Nair ? Is it like you made a username specifically for this article ? I dont expect so much dedication since you dont seem like a god sent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vineet Nayar1 (talk • contribs) 12:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 12 October 2011

These nairs besides being all of noble descent have to be armed as knights by the hand of the king or lord with whom they live and until they have been so equipped they cannot bear arms nor call themselves nairs but they enjoy the freedom and exemption and advantages of the nairs in many things In general when these nairs are seven years of age they are immediately sent to school to learn all manner of feats of agility and gymnastics for the use of their weapons First they learn to dance and then to tumble and for that purpose they render supple all their limbs from their childhood so that they can bend them in any direction And after they have exercised in this they teach them to manage the weapons which suit each one most That is to say bows clubs or lances and most of them are taught to use the sword and buckler which is of more common use among them In this fencing there is much agility and science And there are very skilful men who teach this art and they are called Panicars 1 these are captains in war These nairs when they enlist to live with the king bind themselves and promise to die for him and they do likewise with any other lord from whom they receive pay This law is observed by some and not by others but their obligation constrains them to die at the hands of anyone who should kill the king or their lord and some of them so observe it so that if in any battle their lord should be killed they go and put themselves in the midst of the enemies who killed him even should those be numerous and he alone by himself dies there but before falling he does what he can against them and after that one is dead another goes to take his place and then another so that sometimes ten or twelve nayrs die for their lord Reference-book "A description of the coasts of east africa and malabar by Durato Barbosa page 128. Devaprathap (talk) 17:03, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Barbosa is mentioned in the article but only "in passing". His is far too old a work to be used as a main source for information. You would need to present much more recent reliable sources in order to verify your point. Feel free to do so, of course. - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 16 October 2011

The Nairs are known for their martial history, including their involvement in Kalaripayattu and the role of Nair warriors in the Mamankam ritual. The Nairs were classed as a martial race by the British, but were de-listed after rebelling against them under Velu Thampi Dalawa, and thereafter were recruited in low numbers into the British Indian Army. Only Nairs were recruited into the Travancore Nair Army, until 1935 when non-Nairs were admitted. This State Force (known also as the Nair Brigade) was merged into the Indian Army after independence and became the 9th and 16th Battalions of the Madras Regiment.

The Samanta Kshatriya Kolathiri and Travancore kingdoms were originally of the Nair caste The Zamorin Raja was a Samanthan Nair and the Arakkal kingdom of Kannur, which was the only Muslim kingdom in the Kerala region, also had Nair origins. Nair feudal families such as the Ettuveetil Pillamar of Travancore and Paliath Achan of Kochi were extremely influential in the past and exerted great influence on the ruling clan.

116.203.248.111 (talk) 15:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. What is this? Where do you want it to go in the article? Having said that, some parts definitely can't be added--everyculture.com is not going to be a reliable source, the last sentence is unverified puffery, and I'm not sure about the reliability of the keralapolicehistory site (though others may say it's okay). Is this section supposed to replace something else, or just add more info? Qwyrxian (talk) 23:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I did not find any way to mention where it should be added . Anyways you can chuck some lines. But there are lines above which hold value. I want you to replace the start line aout the unitary group. If you wont replace then you could add these lines. 180.215.224.150 (talk) 06:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me as if you are suggesting that we revert the lead of the article back to a much earlier version. Would this be a correct interpretation of your request? Why would we want to do this when the entire issue has been discussed extensively over recent months? - Sitush (talk) 06:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Who discussed it ? And why ? Can you mention the details please ? This was the old interpretation. I want kalaripayattu mentioned over here, since it holds a great historical value and is a significant point to be mentioned. I dont think hypergamy and nambudiri part is of any importance here. There are many more important points that should be added instead of this. Why do you hesitate adding these points ? Please don't be biased since it is not good hurting the feelings of a group of people just for momentary fun. 116.203.250.125 (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

@Qwyrxian

Please go through below request. I have removed those references. It still doesn't matter much since there are ample or references as well. I am anyhow making this as a new request. Please do the needful.

The Nairs are known for their martial history, including their involvement in Kalaripayattu and the role of Nair warriors in the Mamankam ritual. The Nairs were classed as a martial race by the British

The Samanta Kshatriya Kolathiri and Travancore kingdoms were originally of the Nair caste The Zamorin Raja was a Samanthan Nair and the Arakkal kingdom of Kannur, which was the only Muslim kingdom in the Kerala region, also had Nair origins.

180.215.240.98 (talk) 22:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, if you're asking to change the lead, then I must personally decline. I take a pretty strict stance on WP:LEAD (stricter than some editors), and believe that info in the lead should only represent what is in the actual text (with only trivial exceptions, like mentioning a birth date on a bio page). I also do not believe that there should be citations in the lead, except in very limited circumstances--in general, citations belong in the article, because the lead should do nothing other than summarize the article. However, looking at it now, the current lead is, in my opinion, not good. It spends too much time discussing specifically marriage practices, even though that only covers part of the article. If I have time, I will try to propose a new lead; since this article can be contentious, I'll propose it here on the talk page rather than just put it in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:03, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Why did you people change the original content anyways ???? You could have removed lines that didnt have reference and locked it. Instead you deleted everything and put up some crap description and then lock it ??? and I wonder why are so many people interested in this article ???? What the hell is going on ? It seems like a hot cake to me.

Aryan Nayar . Please restore the original description which was very correct, informative and descriptive as well. 116.203.37.176 (talk) 21:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

In your opinion that information was correct...but reliable sources disagree. We must include what reliable sources say. Again, hoping to get to this lead sometime soon. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:45, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Qwyrxian When you say the source is not reliable, I would like you to mention which source is not reliable and also exlain why it isn't reliable.

Greetings, Vineet Nayar.

Vineet Nayar (talk) 16:15, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 22 October 2011

Here is an old painting pertaining to Nayars viz king of cochin on the elephant. The pic depicts the nayar's as mentioned in the below tagline (refer painting). I would like this to be added into the article. You can add it where it would serve its purpose. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1700_1799/malabar/cochin/prevost2.jpg

180.215.240.98 (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: In order to add a picture to an article, it first needs to be uploaded to Wikipedia. To do so, you can go to WP:Files for upload and follow the instructions there. For both copyright and technical reasons, Wikipedia cannot link pictures from other websites. I only very rarely deal with images, so I don't have enough knowledge to help; I'm not sure how to deal with the copyright issue in this, for instance, since this is obviously an old, out of copyright painting, but I bet that Columbia claims copyright on the website itself...In any event, they should be able to help at WP:Files for upload. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

This image is worth adding. Since it is obviously an old painting, no copyright issue arises and any X or Y cannot simply claim such right over a drawing solely for having uploaded it to their website. So I will consider uploading the image to Commons once I get time. But the appropriate description will never be "The Nayar king of cochin riding elephant". The image itself has descriptions in two languages, French and Dutch. French caption is "Le Roy de Cochin sur son Elephant accompagné de ses Nayres" (Translation: The King of Cochin on his Elephant with his Nairs) while the Dutch text reads: "De Koning van Kochin op zynen Elefant, verzeld van zyne NAIROS (Translation: The King of Cochin upon his Elephant, attended by his Nairs.) In short, it is not "Nair King" but "King with his Nairs". It does not say the King himself is a Nair. Thanks. -Nair (talk) 03:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The way that I did it can be seen for the painting reproduced at Isaac Perrins, an article I wrote some months ago. Click through to the image licence etc & if the situation for this suggested image matches that one then it is ok - I got it cleared by the copyright people (User:Moonriddengirl, IIRC). - Sitush (talk) 09:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I have found a similar but better painting named "The King of Cochin riding on an Elephant, attended by his Nayros" here. This is of better quality, no copyright/source ambiguity and comes with a detailed description and source information here. It is a work of Dutch Protestant merchant, traveler and historian Jan Huyghen van Linschoten and if we trust their description, "this iconic image of the King of Cochin seated atop his elephant with his fearsome warriors was one of the best known images of India in western Europe for the better part of two centuries." The original copperplate engraving is on auction, but no IPR issues arise, as per Commons:COM:PDART. ← Nair (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

 Uploaded to Commons:File:The King of Cochin riding on an Elephant, attended by his Nairs.jpg. ← Nair (talk) 08:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure that you can copy/paste the image description at you have done for the upload? It smacks of copyvio to me. Also, are you sure that the "Nayros" are the same group as the Nairs? Obviously, there is a similarity but it is not a spelling that I have seen before. - Sitush (talk) 16:27, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning, I have changed the description in commons. I didn't think about the copyvio. Anyway "Nayros" is "Nair", there is no question on it. - Nair (talk) 18:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Samiksha Varma removed

Sorry, Samiksha Varma, but I had to remove your "edit request". When you make a request, you need to state specifically the change you want made, not just copy whole chunks out of the text. Editors need to be able to see quickly and easily what the difference is. In addition, it's essentially impossible to respond to an edit request covering 5 separate sections of the article. Instead, please start with one request. As the edit request for says, please state your request in terms of "Please change X in the article to Y". Don't recommend removing an entire paragraph and inserting a whole new one--that's too complex for an edit request. If that's the kind of change you want to make, just start a regular talk section, then explain in detail what is wrong with everything in the paragraph (i.e., why we should abandon all of the references currently there), then explain why your proposed version is better. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Add more pictures

Ancient pictures are available showing NAYRO,NAYRE,NAYR,NAYAR soldiers,it should be added.Also the main ritual associated with nair is serpent worship,photos of traditional 'sarpakkavu' should be uploaded.The section lack enough pictures.As we know,Pictures can speak louder than words.

Edit request from , 28 October 2011

I want to update the Etymology section currently. This is a better description.

The word Nair lends itself to two etymological interpretations. The first interpretation is that the word Nair is derived from the Sanskrit word Nayaka meaning leader. The Sanskrit word Nayaka appears in various forms in southern India (Nayak in Karnataka and Maharashtra, and Nayudu in Andhra Pradesh) and the word Nair has been suggested to be the corruption of Nayak in Malayalam.

PS: What are the dogs doing in the Etymology section. This sucks bigtime.

Vineet Nayar (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Bility (talk) 18:14, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The Bunts of Tulunadu who have close relations with nairs of malabar uses surname NAYERA,MENAVA etc .These names have no connection with dogs.DONT trust Sadasivan.He is a big Bastard and a follower of SN guru.Etymology for nair can be obtained from malabar manual,travancore state manual,cochin population sensus etc .These are reliable sources.WHY then going for sadasivan,who was not even a historian.

At first I just removed Sadasivan, because there has been concern on a number of other articles that he is not a reliable source. Then, after looking at the rest, I don't really see any logic behind having any of them. If we really have no actual good idea, we should just state that the source is unclear, despite having a lot of different theories. So, I removed everything except for the first line. We might even want to remove that, or rephrase it to say "The etymology is unknown, as most proposed etymologies have been criticized by various scholars". Qwyrxian (talk) 10:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, tentatively, about Sadasivan. The rage against his book on WP articles is considerable (not itself a reason for removal) and it seems that he was not primarily an academic historian/ethnologist/anthropologist/philologist etc (more of a reason, in the context of modern academic criteria). Elsewhere, someone has spotted what certainly appears to be a glaring contradiction in his book, which had nothing to do with this Nair issue, but exists nonetheless. I could only find one earlier source supporting the dog issue, and referenced it some time ago on this talk page. This entire issue has arisen out of a conflict situation, viz, "X says Y" and "I have found that A says B". Actually, at the outset of my involvement the "X says Y" bit was not even sourced, IIRC.

What I am not comfortable about is a blanket statement saying that "we do not know for sure" (or something similar). That strikes me as being uninformative. Much as I am not keen on the colonial sources, most of which were pseudo-academic from the POV of the standards of today, they were of their time & unless definitely questioned by more recent sources then they may have their place. At that time it was the best that was done and, indeed, were probably the first studies of such issues that was even remotely reliable. Sure, they were probably wrong but these sources are widely used even by studies such as the Anthropological Survey of India. AnSI is modern and in my opinion also not a lot of use, but such things are surely better than nothing. If we say that "it is unknown" then to support that statement we really need to cite something .... and that puts us back where we started, ie: we need to show that there are varying opinions. This is an awkward one and I have no easy solution to it.

I suspect that it is well known that I expanded James Tod and it seems highly unlikely that he could be described as reliable in a Wikipedia context. The same might be done of the likes of Russell, Thurston etc but at least so far I have found nothing much that directly "criticises" those writers, as much as my gut feeling is that they should have been criticised. Perhaps it is just that they are due an academic overview, but of course that is not our responsibility.

Compared to the Hitler Diaries farrago, this is childs-play. But,as HM The Queen said to me only the other day, "one should not name-drop". No, she didn't - just trying to lighten the tone. -

Basically, we either show all possible options, in context of their time, or we show none. But if we show none then we somehow have to get round how to explain that there are none. We need a source that says that. Is there one? This is a nightmare situation, unfortunately. - Sitush (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary Heading

This article does not reflect the great Nair history and their influence on Kerala. In fact most of the customs, arts, practices in Kerala are connected with Nairs. It is true that some portion of nairs were soldiars in King,s Army. But many were Kings as well as rulers of small kingdoms. This article is mainly highlighting the negatives, which has no clear proof. Need to be edited properly; highlighting the positives of the community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.158.173.36 (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

All the pictures are of 16th century showing some portrait. This is may be true; but as I already said "all nairs were not army men". They were also the army leaders, ministers, local kings and some cases King himself. Why there is no picture on current status of nairs.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.158.173.36 (talk) 00:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Diet sources

The following was recently removed from the articles and then reinstated by me.

Pork was also noted as one of their favourite foods, and even high-status Nairs were noted as eating buffalo meat.

The reason for removal was "Removed unsubstantiated information about diet since the sources were very recent studies and not reflecting the race of Nairs when they were a community" - see here

I reinstated because this article is about the Nairs generally and not specifically during any era. I cannot see the cited sources, and there may be room for someone who can see the things to improve the phrasing. However, prima facie, the statements certainly are not "unsubstantiated", as claimed in the edit summary, nor is a recent study (1965?!) necessarily a bad thing. - Sitush (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

THIRUVATHIRA

Thiruvathira was one of the important artform/ritual/festival associated with Nair mainly for women.This is seen nowhere in this article.Description of this can be obtained from Travancore state manual by 'nagam aiyya' VOL 2 section NAIR-festivals page no.365.(http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=6l2uTuuAGY-HrAe_m9ywDA&ct=result&id=9DJuAAAAMAAJ&dq=travancore+state+manual+vol+2&q=tiruvatira#search_anchor) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinu707 (talk • contribs) 08:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

You can do it yourself as well as expanding stub article Thiruvathira. Btw, Thiruvathira is a day/star/festival while the dance/art-form/ritual is called Thiruvathirakali. I believe this article needs further expansion to the areas such as art and literature - Nair (talk) 04:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Nair page- A perspective from the past!

The entire article on Nairs portrays only 'How/What/Who nairs were?' and it often misleads the reader and makes him/her believe that nairs belong to the pre-independent period only. For instance, no nair woman wears the attires given on the page. This certainly represents the past which can be dated a 100 years back. So please update it accordingly and try to give a present point of view if possible. Or please mention under the images that this doesnt represent the current nair costumes, the current images defenitely sends out wrong impression.

Thanks Midds109 (talk) 06:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC) Midhun

Present day Nairs dress like other Indians. Today's Nair girls wear Churidars and boys wear jeans and shirts. There is no point in adding images to show these garments. Attire section narrates what their traditional dressing was. Thanks. --Nair (talk) 13:00, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Comprehensive Study about the status of the Nair community by the Indian Government

NCBC Document 1998 115.118.90.39 (talk) 13:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, the Indian government may be thinking that Nairs are forward but that is not a "reliable source" for the wiki editors, who are all set to prove that Nairs are aboriginals from Nilgiris. Sadasivan and Pullapilly are their only “reliable source” to prove this. So your inputs are not taken, if you have any half naked pictures, hate messages from missionaries and pictures of polyandry, you are most welcome. People are as good as their thoughts, you can depict a bull as a picture of power, at the same time it may be the bullshit that amuse a few, that’s what it go to do with the changed perception of this article. This article is a slap on the face of Wikipedia article's reliability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.67.211 (talk) 06:14, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I beg your pardon! Did you actually read the article before your numerous, often poor changes to it? For starters, it does mention the forward caste position. The fact that you misrepresented that would itself make me doubt your edits but in fact I did go through them before reverting.

Now, feel free to discuss things calmly here, source by source if need be. As a tip, try to avoid making huge changes in one edit as it could be be the case that the good will get lost among the bad: unpicking a huge number of adjustments takes far too long for most people to contemplate, especially if they're overwhelmed by the bad, so they'll more likely just hit the "undo" link. - Sitush (talk) 07:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Sadasivan

There have been some legitimate doubts raised regarding Sadasivan, in connection with another article. Three citations in this article refer to his book & so I have tagged them as being dubious. In fact, I am pretty sure that there are not dubious or even controversial, & that the info exists elsewhere. The tags will at least act as an aide memoire while I go hunting for alternative sources. Obviously, anyone else is welcome to go hunting also but right now I see no reason to actually remove the statements. - Sitush (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Raja Ravi Varma

Before the Raja Ravi Varma image is added (again) it might be worth reviewing the previous discussion about this image at Talk:Nair/Archive_17#Chekon_vs_Rajkris_-_images. - Sitush (talk) 10:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually the entire edit to the lead section here is problematic. It is a restoration of an older version of the article. Some of the sources are clearly unreliable for the points made (eg: the autobiography), others have been superseded by more recent works (& are contradicted or substantially modified in the body of the article), yet others were simply not available for review & had little support via GScholar etc. As far as the "martial race" claim goes, no-one has ever been able to provide a source saying that they were classified as such (although my gut feeling has always been that they probably were).

I think that there is a general awareness that the lead is inadequate but this is not the way to go about fixing it. The lead has to summarise the article - see WP:LEAD - and yet what this edit does is something quite different. - Sitush (talk) 11:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

To clarify something for the contributor of the above edit, it is not usually necessary to provide citations in the lead precisely because it is a summary. Therefore, the justification for the edit - "...replacing old statements without any reference" - is misguided. - Sitush (talk) 11:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush,

The image is taken from wikipedia itself and has no copyright issue. The image clearly is a work of the king himself and there should be no reason for its removal.

Moreover the points in the lead polyandry and stuff which would only be specific to some areas is not such an important point to be mentioned in the lead. I have stated this before cant writeas well. I had instead suggested a better writing along with a reference which was not accepted.

Did not sign in Shashi karayayi. 180.215.240.34 (talk) 13:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Nair polyandry is probably the aspect of Nair life that is most frequently covered in reliable sources, and it is so because of its significant & almost unique manifestation (with hypergamy etc). Therefore, it should be in the lead. with suitable provisos as appropriate. This has all been discussed several times over the course of the last few months.

Nobody has said that there is a copyright issue with the image. Well, not that I can recall anyway. I am not sure what your point is here. - Sitush (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

the point he made is that if there is not copyright issue? what is your issue ? Why do you remove that painting ? Cause it looks good ? If it were some woman from stone age showing her cleavage you would have put it on the top. You are lame Sitush. Very lame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.33.9 (talk) 17:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

And the polyandry thing is specific to only a particular area. You cant summarize it since its not a general fact or tradition. If u trace back to history this has been very common. Be it Draupati in Mahabharata, Greek civilization, Tibet anywhere. You cant mention that in summary since its not general/traditional and it is not at all specific to the Nair's. And moreover since its Marti-linear, the woman had the right to do so if she wishes. It was not a tradition that they had to follow. The woman had the right to dismiss anyone if she doesn't wish to. Taking sentences out of context is being very low of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.33.9 (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush is some lame dalit hehe. The day I find him I will kalaripayattu all the way up his arse. That's when he would consider mentioning kalaripayattu in the lead.