Talk:Brandon Teena

Welcome to the talkpage of the Brandon Teena article. Please note the guidelines above and please see Naming conventions and MOS:IDENTITY to understand how Wikipedia addresses identity issues of people outside gender binary roles and identities.

What gender was this person ?

Maybe the story is familiar to Americans, but to others, like me, who know nothing of this story whatsoever (I followed the link via the page for comedian Norm MacDonald) have no idea what gender 'Brandon Teena' or 'Teena Brandon' was ? And consequently the article is really, really confusing as to what the motives of his/her killers was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.30.197.161 (talk) 07:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena identified as male, as the article makes clear.

The article begins by stating that Brandon Teena was a trans man. (Follow the link to read more: "A trans man, transman, trans guy, or FTM is a transgender or transsexual man: a person who was assigned female at birth, but who identifies as male.') The section discussing the murder is also pretty clear. It states 'Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants, proving to Tisdel that Teena was anatomically female.' They then raped him. A few days later, Nissen and Lotter murdered Brandon Teena. The section does not go into detail about the murderers' motivations, but the clear implication is that Brandon Teena was murdered because he was anatomically female but identified and lived as a man. Male pronouns are used in the article, in line with MOS:IDENTITY.

Perhaps you are confused about how someone's gender identity can be different from their assigned sex. But the Brandon Teena page is not the right place to explain this - hence the link to the trans man page.

If you have any specific suggestions for improving the page (provided they keep to MOS:IDENTITY), then please do put down an edit request. Happydemic (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

So what are you saying? If someone 80 years identifies themself as 5 years old you must change the birthdate accordingly? If someone that is a caucasian identifies as asian you must identify them as asian? That's bollocks, nonsense and an utter lie... Assigned gender is true gender because it exists before its assigned by anyone, like age and ethnicity and even nationality. A coroner never asks the corpse what the corpse believed, the coroner only checks the truth told by the corpse itself and such things that are found by the coroner as age, ethnicity and gender should be the same in both legal documents and biographies about the person at hand for practical reasons of understanding the truth of the person, we don't go around classifying schizophreniacs and otherkin by the characters or species they believe themselves to be... Do we? One thing is being tolerant of homosexuality, another thing is encouraging deception, and transexuality is a form of deception. Undead Herle King (talk) 08:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion and weak example(s) don't matter in this instance (or in any other real situation I suspect). MOS:IDENTITY explains why the pronoun "he" is used in this particular article. In short, Wikipedia chooses to respect the gender the subject identifies/ed as - not what you want or what you think is right. If the usage really bothers you that much, substitute the pronouns "she" and "he" while you are reading this.

Edit request from Electrcguy, 12 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} All times Teena Brandon is referred to as "he" should be changed to "she" as she was born female and continued her life as biologically female, having no sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. There is no basis for the deliberate misrepresentation of gender for this article.

Electrcguy (talk) 04:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see MOS:IDENTITY which states that a person should be referred as the gender they currently identify as. Stickee (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit, can I self-identify as African-American even though I was born white? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.137.167 (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate." Really? Lord what a load of horseshit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.68.33 (talk) 13:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Typo

"He also began rebelling at school by violating the school dress-code policy to dress more masculine." should be replaced by "He also began rebelling at school by violating the school dress-code policy to dress more masculinly.

Request NOT to remove edit protection.

Strong support in general for the community of Wikipedia editors in adhering to Wikipedia guidelines. Strong support for MOS:IDENTITY and relevant conventions. Maybe this comment is irrelevant, but if the purpose of the discussion page is to make the article better, I'm going to suggest that this existing policy is making it better.66.134.4.226 (talk) 21:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

seconded193.146.58.181 (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Gender Pronoun Issue

This article, while informative, is a bit difficult to follow. The reason is the switching of gender use from main biological designation to self-determined gender identity (though sadly, in this case, that identity was a little shaky.)

I'm not here to pass judgement on a person who was forced to live a lie, and was brutally murdered. The facts of the story are harrowing and bleak.

However, this is an Encyclopedia of sorts, a damn good one in my opinion. And I do question the pronoun usage - it makes the article confusing at first run. I understand that there is a "pronoun reclamation" movement going on in the LGBT community, and that it is being led by American youth and spreading to colleges nation-wide. I went to Hampshire College - I understand these things. And I applaud young people shifting social norms and working for justice.

But can new language usage be forced upon a readership? I'm not certain it can, certainly not without some confusion. What are the literary precedents for dealing with this new usage - is there a general consensus with regards to academic writing? I'm curious.

I don't know what the solve is, and I'm conflicted about the entire idea of pronoun re-assignment. I have very rigid ideas about grammar. But my problem with the article is honestly simply one of parsing information in the quickest manner possible. And I thought it pertinent to express my confusion in contrast to the Edit Request made by a certain other gentlemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.46.45 (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Brandon was a male; his anatomy is irrelevant. Therefore, the use of male PGPs (he/him/his) is appropriate and correct. There is no problem with the gender pronouns on this page. If someone identifies as male, they are male, regardless of their assigned at birth sex (sex is assigned at birth, gender is how one identifies). 96.236.7.10 (talk) 01:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Teena was born female and treated as a girl through childhood, wore feminine clothing and self-identified as a girl until later on (though tomboy-ish... as the article states, and as many girls are... it is the early gender which is relevant in the early part of the entry) - This article reads very strangely and I agree with the original comment.

To refer to Teena as female before adolescence would be a compromise.60.242.39.220 (talk) 19:08, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm here to support the argument. The article is extremely hard to read with the pronoun issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.28.50.165 (talk) 05:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy requires that male pronouns be used for Brandon Teena throughout this article, including in the sections describing his childhood. See MOS:IDENTITY: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life." Happydemic (talk) 14:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

"Sexual Assault and murder" edits

I'm requesting that we expand the section on Brandon's sexual assault and murder. It is my understanding that the rape and the murders did not occur on the same day, which the article may lead one to believe. The documentary The Brandon Teena Story provides an exhaustive description of the events from the sexual assault leading to Brandon's death on the 31st of December. Is there anyway we can unlock the article to delineate the narrative of the crimes a little further? Ptfescewl (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The internet

I remember the occasion well, particularly the use of the internet because of the shortcomings of the Sheriff's department, when hundreds of people on chat lines around the world combined to deluge the authorities with e-mails. It was an important first demonstration of the power of the internet. Is there no literature on the subject which can be cited in this article? 86.155.33.134 (talk) 09:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena

It states on his page, "Teena claimed to be intersex several times, with this later being proven to be false." However, it does not state how this was proven false. Perhaps whoever submitted this comment could elaborate. It is not medically proven false by looking at the exterior of a patient's body. There are numerous variations of a person being intersexed. For two examples out of several types of testing that could've been done: What were the results of a chromosome test as well as that of any mutated chromosomes if any mutated chromosomes were present? Did he have an androgen wash while he was a fetus in his mother's womb? Hmmm? So, if the statement was never seriously clinically proven then it would most likely be best to remove at least part of the statement made on the Wikipedia page created for him. In other words, maybe it can be said: "Teena claimed to be intersexed several times." Then leave off the rest of the statement. If there isn't any knowledge of medical testing other than a visual examination then the rest of that statement is very mistaken.

{Another concerned person for Brandon's memory} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.224.35 (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

From memory, no 'abnormalities' were detected in autopsy. I was only a young person at the time though, so this may or may not be accurate. - Fellow Concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Mfinch13, 5 July 2011

I'm requesting an edit to change Teena's pronouns back to male ones, to be consistent with his self-identification, and therefore with the Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS:IDENTITY). Is there any way that users who change his pronouns to female ones can be blocked from editing the page in the future? --Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

 Done I undid the recent revisions that had changed it to she/her. Unless a user violates a policy, ie WP:3RR or WP:VANDAL they will most likely not be blocked just because they changed the article to she/her. Jnorton7558 (talk) 03:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Greenefloripa, 13 July 2011

Due respect to Brandon, and thus necessarily to his self-defined identity, requires use of the male pronoun in the text of Wikipedia. This is the least respect we can show for him, his memory, and his significant ohers. As to reliable sources supporting this ethic, see Eve Sedgwick, Michael Warner, Judith Butler, and others. As a professor and researcher of Queer Studies, I find the neglect to use the male pronoun in such disrespectful references to Brandon Teena in Wikipedia to be a major topic for a discussion of normatively sanctioned cultural recalcitrance -- even on a page written by people who are acquainted with the issues involved in his struggle! Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The text already does use the male pronoun for him. This was fixed by the previous edit request. Unless you notice some specific places? Jnorton7558 (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Him and his?

Those words are extremely misleading. 184.96.243.120 (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

He, him and his are the correct gender pronouns for this article. See MOS:IDENTITY. Happydemic (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to comment on the MOS:Identity policy as such but since it is considered applicable, it would be very helpful for this article to simply make reference to that policy right up top, just to aid readers. eg "Brandon Teena had female physical characteristics, but self-identified as a male. In accordance with Wikipedia's MOS:Identity policy, the pronoun 'he' is used throughout this article to reflect that self-identification." I can't see why anyone would have a problem with some explanatory information like that up top, and I can tell you as a reader of the article that it would have helped me understand the article. I understand there are some political issues surrounding the choice of pronoun and that is all to the good, but it needs to be admitted that the general reader may need some introductory guidance. - Anthroipoidape — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 00:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The first 7 words of the article (not including the DOB/D) are already "Brandon Teena . . . was an American trans man". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.146.58.181 (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article opens by referring to the subject as a "trans man". To me, this does not solve the problem that the article is extremely confusing to those seeking information - admittedly, it's probably not confusing to people who already know the information anyway, and who seem to have an aversion to making the article clear to readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)