Talk:Gimbap

Assembly Directions?

I wish for someone to add to the article directions on how to make and assemble gimbap together. --터울 02:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Translation

Cited on the bottom, the sources 6, 7, and 8 are incomplete sentences. "일본음식에서 유래된 것으로" means "in the origin of Japanese is". Citation 6 is not "한국민족문화대백과[Encyclopedia of Korean National Culture]" but rather a section from Nate Encyclopedic Database. The full sentence is "김밥은 밥에 여러 가지 속을 넣고 김으로 말아 싼 음식으로 일본음식에서 유래된 것으로 보이며 우리나라에서는 근대 이후에 많이 먹기 시작한 것으로 추측된다.", which roughly translates to "Kimbap, a food consisting of rolled with rice and a variety of ingredients, generally viewed as Japanese in origin, is hypothesized to have gained popularity in our country (Korea) afterwards."

It does NOT say that Gimbap (or Kimbap) is derived from Makizushi or vice versa. "보이며" means to be seen or viewed, so it would mean that it is believed to be this way. Also, whatever happened to the Ssambap section? Ssambap is no longer an article. Please either put the information in the section of Gimbap or create a new "Ssambap" article. You cannot delete something in its entirety because you disagree with it; it exists therefore its documentation stays.

Please revise this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 (talk) 05:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Name of the food

Last month I ate "kimbab" in a korean restaurant in London and seeing there was no article about it in Finnish Wikipedia, I started one. There was an article in Swedish Wikipedia for kimbab, but it took some time to find the English version. I don't know korean or how it's translitterated, but the name of the food seems to be spelled gimbap, kimbap and kimbab. Which is the right form? Are the alternate versions common enough to be mentioned in the article or to be redirected here? --Sumiko 08:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

And what's the relation between "kimbab" and "bimbab"? The same ingredients, but not rolled? --Sumiko 08:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you're thinking of bibimbap? Aside from the fact that they are both Korean dishes based on rice (hence bap), I don't think there's any connection. -- Visviva 14:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification and link to the article. I can translate it for the Finnish version of Wikipedia. --Sumiko 22:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... The original Korean is 김밥; kimbap is the McCune-Reischauer romanization, and gimbap is the Revised romanization. We normally follow the Revised system on Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean), which is why you'll find this article here. Kimbab and gimbab are incorrect, but common, romanizations, so they should probably redirect here. -- Visviva 14:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

And now they do. :-) Thanks! -- Visviva 14:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for explaining the roanization. :) Have to exchange the name of the article in fiWikipedia. --Sumiko 22:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Maki-zushi

There is no historical evidence that Kimbap came from Maki-zushi. Even Maki-zushi formed current style (one-bite small size) AFTER World War II. During Chosun Dynasity, Koreans usually eat rice with kim(nori in Japanese) and banchan. This evolved into current Kimbap and even there are some theories that Japanese Makizushi was inspired by this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crmtm (talk • contribs) 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC).

Maki-zushi was completed in Edo period.　nori in Korea had only the paste. And, Japan introduced board Nori to Korea at the Meiji era. --Azukimonaka 21:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

In 1995, the Ministry of Culture and Sports (文化體育部/문화체육부) of South Korea published a book named "Japanese life wording purification collection" (日本語式生活用語純化集/일본어투 생활 용어 순화집), and proposed that the foreign word 노리마키 (NoRiMaKi) was changed to 김밥 (GimBap). And norimaki (in Japanese language) resembles maki-zushi.

Therefore, I think that there are some relations to these words.

See also:

• Template:Ja icon "The language purification movement in Korea (国語純化運動)", CLAIR (Council of Local Authorities for International Relations) (財団法人自治体国際化協会), Tokyo, May 2005.
• Template:Ko icon "일본어투 용어 순화 자료집".

--Nightshadow28 17:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Korean article is non-existent, Japanese article requires a login. Both hold no academic value whatsoever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.206.254 (talk) 06:06, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Origins of food

Azukimonaka and nightshadow28, much of Japanese cuisine flowed from China and Korea. There is no apparent authority, treatise or otherwise suggesting that the renaming of "kimbap" is a result of Japanese influence. To suggest that "kimbap" and even the so-called "introduction of nori" is not entirely truthful, as dried seaweed has not been proven to be a purely Japanese invention. Can we delete the last paragraph of this stub? It is not accurate and offensive. Those links you proffer do not demonstrate your point in any case.

I will submit more documentation evidencing that "nori" was NOT introduced to Korea, nor was kimbap "introduced" or a product of re-invention from Japan. In fact, it is the other way around. Unless you submit more authority proving either of your points, I will delete the paragraph or ask the Administrator to do so. Azntokki 02:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Azntokki

The origin of Gimbap

(Some of my comments below were copied from this discussion at AN/I.--Endroit (talk))

This edit by 144.82.106.67, and this edit by Manacpowers (talk · contribs), attempted to replace "is derived from" with "a parent to". This appears to be misinformation, and I will correct this.

Due to the possible violation on WP:CITE, and WP:V, I deleted Jjok (talk · contribs)'s citation from 국립국어연구원. If he can answer my question: how he found the quote in the page of the book, he can put it back to the article anytime. My request for Jjok to clarify the source is so simple that WP:DR seems to not even needed.--Appletrees (talk) 23:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Due to violation on WP:CIV, I deleted Acuwer's (talk) accusations and statements. In fact, the whole conversation is not productive and it seems that Acuwer just want to provoke. It becomes clear when he start using inappropriate arguments and linking non topic youtube videos just to fuel some dispute. Fniss (talk) 12:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Regards removal of Cyi5697 (talk) added content. Oda Mari reverts my removal and asking me to refute added content when Cyi5697 is the one should provide sources and references. It seems that Oda Mari is bias? Since its heavily debated topic, it should reach consensus before adding on the article. Its already stated "There are two views about the origin of Gimbap... " There is no need for yet another section that someone randomly adding personal POV without providing source or reference. "The origin of kimbap is sushi" is not "...two views about the origin of Gimbap" witch is already accepted and stated in earlier section. Therefore Cyi5697 added section is not NPOV and should be removed. - Fniss (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to step on a hornet's nest here, but for the record, I have a problem with the theory that Kimbap is derived from sushi, as presented here, but for a different reason. The word kimbap may be derived from Japanese "norimaki" (at least kimbap may have been called that before the word kimbap was invented after the emancipation) but that doesn't make it sushi. "Norimaki" just means something rolled in seaweed. Since it's not the same thing as makizushi, I don't see why this article mentions futomaki, which literally means large rolls (Kimbap slices aren't especially large), or why there's a link to makizushi (which is just a different way of preparing sushi that superficially resembles kimbap). Sushi has vinegar. Kimbap has sesame oil and salt. So if it's related to any sort of Japanese dish, it would probably be onigiri, which has the same ingredients, not sushi. In Korea Japanese-style onigiri is called kimbap regardless of its shape. Sushi is called "sushi" and clearly distinguished from kimbap. The onigiri article here on Wikipedia correctly mentions samgak kimbap as a type of onigiri. If no one has any objections, I'll change the link to point to the onigiri article. JohnDavidWard (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I reverted your edit. If you wish to add "Gimbap is a type of jumeokbap (that is, Korean onigiri)", you should provide a reliable source. Also if you wish to change to "Gimbap is derived form Onigiri", you should provide a reliable source. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. I've been doing some home improvement and haven't been able to respond. My point wasn't to say anything new about gimbap in diachronic sense, but in a synchronic sense. That is, I'm talking about the taxonomy of gimbap, not its origins. I just put my comment here because I thought it would be relevant to previous discussion on origins, not that I was introducing a new theory. But in the time I've been off Wikipedia, I see that someone else has already tried to correct the article in the same way, so I'll add a new section now about this. JohnDavidWard (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Invalid sources

Since I noticed the quality of reference is quite bad and level of academic value is about zero. I think we should look over the sources. As far as I can see. there is no valid source proving that Gimbap is being derived from Norimaki.

• The article by Kuroda Hukumi (Fukumi Kuroda, actress) is POV. Holds no academic value
• Yahoo! Korea dictionary is obsolete and not valid.
• ref 7 och 8 is obsolete and not valid.
• nisshin-foods.co.jp and nishinippon.co.jp does not qualify as a reliable source let alone a scientific one.

Im not trying to push any buttons. Im updating the swedish wiki and I want to make sure the articles have some sort of credibility and value.. without second hand references. I tried to search for any proof for that statement myself but couldn't find any. Again, there is no source that proof that Gimbap is derived from Norimaki. Im removing the statement until someone can provide valid sources that hold some sort of academic value. – Oppa ^talk –  22:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this article definitely needs better sources. Most of them are just one line, throw-away references which seem to be repeating popular myths rather than being the result of any research. They should probably be deleted until something better can be found. Also, I don't see why the translations of the references at keep saying "norimaki" since none of the source articles use that word. They all say either "Japanese sushi" or just "Japanese cuisine." JohnDavidWard (talk) 23:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

You are confusing 초밥 (sushi, literally vinegar rice) with 김초밥 (norimaki or makizushi, literally nori sushi). ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

My point there was simply that whoever did those translations used the odd word "norimaki" rather than the expected "makizushi." It's not worth arguing about. JohnDavidWard (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Gimbap as sushi or as onigiri

It seems like this page is missing an important bit of information, namely that gimbap is a sort of onigiri rather than sushi, or at least is classified that way. I can add citations, but I already added what seemed to me like a commonsense change incorporated basically what the Wikipedia page on onigiri already says, but it was reverted. Since this page is apparently heavily edited, it was wrong of me to make the changes without reaching consensus here. So for the sake of discussion, here's my argument:

1. Although the differences between sushi and onigiri are sometimes ignored, technically sushi is vinegared rice. Sushi also usually contains bits of seafood or raw fish. I hope this doesn't need a reference, because it's mentioned prominently in the Wikipedia article for sushi and onigiri already, with only a recipe book as a citation, but it's apparently taken for common knowledge among the editors on that page. Korean has a word for sushi, 초밥, which is distinguished from 김밥. My YBM dictionary gives chobap as "vinegared fish and rice." The Korean wikipedia page on 초밥 makes essentially the same point.
2. Gimbap does not contain vinegar. Instead, it's usually made with sesame oil, which gives it a savory rather than sweet-sour taste. For example, the KBS World Korean Cuisine cookbook app says, "The main difference between gimbap and Japanese sushi is the use of vinegar. While cooked rice for Japanese sushi is flavored with sweetened vinegar, cooked rice for gimbap is seasoned with sesame oil and salt."
3. The description of gimbap as currently written ("Gimbap is derived from Japanese futomaki (Makizushi) during the Japanese rule (1910-1945).") gives the impression that gimbap is merely a subtype of sushi. If we can agree that gimbap is not a type of sushi, then it needs to be rewritten or expanded. I wanted to rewrite it because it seemed to me that the specific language used was not justified by anything in the citations. But leaving that aside, if gimbap is not sushi, then it seems logical to say roughly what it is instead.
4. A subcategory of gimbap is samgakgimbap, which is (I hope we can agree) identical with the most popular type of convenience store onigiri. If samgakgimbap is a type of onigiri as well as a type of gimbap, then the categories of onigiri and gimbap must overlap or coincide. On the Wikipedia page on onigiri, which discusses Korean jumeokbap as a subcategory, it would seem that the English language Wikipedia is using onigiri as a generic cover term for non-sushi rice snacks. This would suggest that, in the loose sense, gimbap can be described as in the onigiri family.
5. Although it would be accurate to describe gimbap as a type of onigiri, this being a Korea-related article, it seems appropriate to use Korean terminology where possible in order to maintain a consistent and neutral point of view. 'Jumeokbap' is the best translation of onigiri available.
6. Although it's a little unusual to call gimbap 'jumeokbap,' it's not that hard to find references describing gimbap as essentially jumeokbap rolled in laver. For instance, a citation on the Korean gimbap page says, "초기의 김밥은 매우 단순한 형태의 주먹밥으로부터 참기름과 소금으로 양념한 밥에 시금치나 단무지 등을 김에 단순히 싸는 형태로..." which means, "Primitive gimbap, in the form of bap from a very simple form of jumeokbap, seasoned with sesame oil and salt, wrapped simply in laver with such things as spinach and pickled radishes..."

Thoughts? I've numbered these points so that anyone can responded to whichever one they think is too weak or unsupportable. JohnDavidWard (talk) 19:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

1. 2. I don't object this point. The source[1] says "In Korea, gimbaps are derived from the Japanese maki sushi, but they are usually stuffed with rice with sesame oil and meat." Also we may be able to find reliable sources supporting this claim.

3. Please see the five sources provided in the article again. Then if you still think the description is not justified by anything in the citations, please explain more about it.

4. 5. The term "samgak gimbap" was coined recently by the Japanese convenience store Seven Eleven probably in 1998. There is no historical relationship between the two. If you have any reliable source "samgak gimbap is a type of gimbap", please provide it.

6. There are many theories expressed by Korean people about the origin of gimbap. The Korean article adopted "복쌈" (bokssam) citing an unreliable blog-like report written by a news reporter. If your source is reliable and the theory is widely accepted, you can add the theory as another theory to this article instead of replacing the existent well sourced descriptions.

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

1. 6 I mentioned it above on the talk page, and I'll repeat it here, that I'm not trying to add a new theory on the origin of gimbap. I'm talking about its classification among rice-based foods in a modern day context. Reptiles are descended from amphibians, but it's still incorrect typologically to say that reptiles are amphibians. In the same way, it's incorrect to say that gimbap is a type of sushi. The article doesn't say this, but it implies it, and it needs to be clarified. If I find well-cited evidence for a new theory, I'll certainly add it.
2. 4 That samgak gimbap is a type of gimbap is already mentioned on this page. Personally, I think the fact that convenience store onigiri came to be called samgak gimbap rather than something else says a lot about a lot about what Koreans themselves see as the defining characteristic of gimbap: it's made with oiled rice and wrapped in laver. Of course, it isn't typical gimbap, but neither is a penguin or an emu a typical bird. There doesn't need to be a historical relationship. There's no common descent between agriculture in the Old World and in the New World but they're still classified as the same thing. If you think that samgak gimbap doesn't belong here, delete the section on samgak gimbap yourself. It doesn't really have anything to do with me.
3. 3 Discussing the non-Korean references first, Number four is from a non-academic encyclopedia which covers the whole continent, and contains several minor mistakes in the section on Korea. Number five is from a Spanish cookbook (about ten dollars, less than a hundred pages, paperback). Neither cites sources. I don't think either of them could be considered authoritative when it comes to Korean history. I've complained about the poor quality of the sources here before.
4. 3 Moving on to the references in Korean, it's clear that none of them have the derivation of gimbap as their central thesis, and they're all more descriptive than historical. These sources are reliable, but they don't necessarily support the sentence as written. For instance, number six says "일본음식 김초밥에서 유래된 것으로... 추측된다.", which means "It is speculated that [it is] ... a derivative of the makizushi of Japanese cuisine..." (referring back to gimbap mentioned in the previous sentence). The other two use only slightly different wording. The bad English translation makes what they claim seem stronger that it is. If this is an assumption, it ought to be described as such. If there's ambiguity in the original, it shouldn't be ignored.
5. I had originally changed "is derived from" to "is thought to be derived from or influenced by." Perhaps "assumed to be derived from" works better. I added the other part to avoid the impression that gimbap was and continues to be a sort of sushi, but also I think "derived from or influenced by" is within the semantic leeway of the word 유래. It's one of six or so words for derivation or origin in Korean, and the only one of these that can also mean experiences or influences (gradual, over time, at least when applied to a person or a institution). If anyone has more information on the nuances of that word, I'd be glad to hear it.
6. 3 Also, none of the references use the word "futomaki." Maybe it's somewhere else in one of the books where I couldn't read, but as far as I can tell, it's unsourced.
7. All in all, I'd be happy if we made the sentence consistent with what the sources actually say, and added a new sentence or two to the effect that gimbap is not, technically speaking, sushi, as it's not made with vinegared rice, and so on. JohnDavidWard (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)