Talk:Homeopathy

To Do List

add explanation of healing crisis in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique. add a broad-brush description of the work of Constantine Hering and James Tyler Kent and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known Kent repertory, on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based" homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the do no harm dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for palliative care. The fact that they didn't use the "heroic" measures in common use, such as bloodletting, powerful drugs like arsenic, strychnine, mercury, belladonna, etc. meant that more patients survived, since these drugs often caused more deaths. In many cases doing what amounted to nothing, i.e. placebo homeopathic treatment, was better than doing something, i.e. overkill with poisons, thus letting the body's own recuperative powers do the healing, which for many ordinary ailments is just fine.

Provings

I'm confused. It says at page 202 of Devrient's translation of the 1833 Organon (the 5th German edition) that provings are done with medicinal substances that are "alone and perfectly pure". Do later editions differ, or has current practice changed from what the Organon calls for? Incidentally, the proliferation of ISBNs for works which are in the public domain is troubling. We should be linking to free online archives for all these, not driving sales to specific reprinters. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The 1913 Everyman's edition of Wheeler's translation uses slightly different English wording here: "perfectly simple and unadulterated form". LeadSongDog come howl! 16:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The 1833 translation linked to seems to be of the 4th German edition - its table of contents lists only 292 aphorisms, and the 5th edition had 294 and wasn't translated until 1849. The 5th and (posthumous) 6th editions of the Organon state, at aphorism 128, that "provings" should be carried out using 30C remedies. The book on homoeopathic pharmacy cited in the section of the article on provings also states that modern "provings" are almost invariably carried out using ultramolecular remedies. And, of course, the basic "law" of similars states that disease can be treated by a remedy that causes the symptoms of the disease, not a remedy made from something that causes the symptoms. Brunton (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

So you get the idea that Hahnemann was developing his ideas about homeopathy. He was learning and expressing that in his writings. What then is your understanding of what he was saying overall? I ask that knowing that wiki needs references, but the question stands. And as for the references for that, what qualifies?Cjwilky (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Odd edit

Can someone explain this sentence to me? "This is at odds with Hahnemann's rules for proving, which would also appear to exclude "imponderables" such as light of venus, shipwreck, pink and TV radiation." I've read it a dozen times and cannot figure out what it means. Is it trying to say that (1) light from the planet Venus; (2) shipwrecks, (3) the color pink, and (4) radiation emitted from televisions are all "imponderables"? I've read this sentence a dozen times and I just don't understand what it means.JoelWhy (talk) 14:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've reverted that addition as grammatically confusing, as well as unsourced WP:OR. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:07, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The poison quotes were on "imponderables" for a reason. It's a term of art that homeopaths use for remedies that are made purely by association (not mixing). This may be writing something on a piece of paper then putting a vial of water atop that paper. It may be exposing a vial to the light of the sun, or even of Venus. It's a sympathetic magic idea that even some homeopaths have trouble with. While definitely not wp:MEDRS, these might shed some light: [1] [2] [3]. I gather the term goes back to Hahnemann (1833). LeadSongDog come howl! 16:31, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow. All I can say is wow. I mean, as if homeopathy wasn't silly enough, along comes some homeopaths who manage to make regular homeopathy seem like its based on the Theory of Relativity in comparison.JoelWhy (talk) 16:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Are you suggesting there is nothing in the light from the sun? Strange is that imponderable "magic" that causes a fridge to work from those black things on the roof. Thank the lord the earth is flat. Cjwilky (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Way to slay that straw man...JoelWhy (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

No straw without the sun, dood Cjwilky (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I am sure that you are only pretending not to understand so there's not much point explaining. What is worth explaining is why the fact of adverse reactions to penicillin is not relevant in this article. Penicillin is a drug, it has a real and provable effect, it is a genuinely life-saving medicine that also has rare side-effects. Homeopathy is purely a placebo, it has no effects so of course it has no side effects either. Medicine has a way of dealing with the risk/benefit equation (hence the change away from live vaccines for polio once polio had declined to a tiny fraciotn of its original prevalence). Homeopathy has no mechanism for self-correction and lacks any self-criticism whatsoever. There is no comparison between the two. Guy (Help!) 18:53, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The point I made, which as usual seems to be missed in this talk page, so I repeat it again, is about the suggestion above ("It may be exposing a vial to the light of the sun, or even of Venus. It's a sympathetic magic idea that even some homeopaths have trouble with.") that sunlight contains nothing, remedies from it are magic and some homeopaths have issues with that (I don't know of any at all). An imponderable is a remedy made from nothing visible as matter. Hence photons, magnetic fields and the like are well established "somethings" that aren't visible matter and so are classed as imponderables. Cjwilky (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sunlight is energy, but it doesn't turn water into medicine. That's just inane. SÆdon^talk 17:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, if you look at the edit history for Solar water disinfection it will be clear that I'm quite aware that sunlight interacts with water and with things suspended in it. Obviously, it at least marginally warms the water. But it doesn't become yellow, or radioactive, or start emitting a solar wind. The "sympathetic magic" is in its purported acquisition of only the specific attributed healthful properties of the Sun (or Venus, or whatever). LeadSongDog come howl! 17:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Photons, magnetic fields, etc can be measured and studied, as can their impact on matter. The only thing I find 'imponderable' about all this is how anyone can utilize these special pleadings to convince themselves that homeopathy is medicine.JoelWhy (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should mention somewhere that the use of 'imponderable' here is another word used by homeopaths to mean something different than in general English or in science.Acleron (talk) 21:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

From what Cj wrote above I'm gathering that they use it in the normal English sense but happen to be uneducated about what physics has elucidated thus far and so they call it imponderable from a perspective of ignorance. For instance, Bill O'Reilly seems to think the force that makes the tides go in and out imponderable, while the average 8th grader would snicker at the thought. SÆdon^talk 21:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Awkward one. My understanding of imponderable is either something that cannot be detected or thought about. As none of these silly examples are in those categories I suggest they have misused the word. For example, Cj says 'Are you suggesting there is nothing in the light from the sun?', so they know there is 'something there' therefore it cannot be imponderable.Acleron (talk) 11:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem here is not whether sunlight can or can't do something to a liquid that's exposed to it. The problem is that the homeopathists don't have a good explanation for why they claim that this might work - and they have not performed appropriate scientific double-blind experiments to verify that it does. In the case of sunlight, it is indeed plausible that sunlight could have some kind of photochemical effect - but that's not the issue. The amount of 'Venuslight' is so utterly negligable that it's entirely implausible that it could have any effect. If so little sunlight reflected off of some planetary body could have such a profound effect then merely taking the liquid out of the bottle to injest it would cause a gazillion profound changes due to sunlight reflected off of the bottle cap, from the patient's mouth and so forth. It's this lack of a connection between what you're doing and why you're doing it - backed up with careful experimental testing for efficacy that makes this all a pile of steaming bull-crap pseudoscience. These exposures to various kinds of light are "imponderables" because nobody has attempted to ponder them - and controlling experiments in which tiny numbers of photons of sunlight reflected from Venus have some profound effect really are pretty much "imponderable" because you simply cannot control for all of the millions of other sources of sunlight reflected from the experimenter's hands, the room and so forth. This nature of homeopathy where very dilute amounts of substances (or now light) are claimed to have a profound effect really are "imponderable" because any water you could ever obtain anywhere had C30 dilutions of every substance found on earth in it before the researcher even started to mess with it. You can't make a C30 dilution of eye-of-newt (or whatever it is this week) without also accidentally making a C30 dilution of the experimenters' tears, his excrement, his skin cells, the copper pipes that carried the water here, the light of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Betelgeuse, etc, etc. A clean, controlled experiment is impossible and (in truth) the whole practice of homeopathy is fatally flawed because of that. SteveBaker (talk) 12:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd be a bit more relaxed and say that understanding the why, while scientifically interesting and valuable, isn't necessarily required for a therapy to be legitimate. When penicillin was discovered (and for quite a number of years after it came into regular use) no one knew that it worked by irreversibly, but that didn't mean that it wasn't considered a 'real' pharmaceutical. The problem with homeopathic remedies is twofold; first, since the mechanisms of action isn't really known (and likely doesn't exist), its practitioners have made up any number of different stories and tout them all as fact without any supporting evidence for their reasoning. Doctors using penicillin didn't know how it worked, either, but it didn't matter and they didn't have to make up elaborate stories and rituals because they didn't have homeopathy's second major problem—penicillin actually worked reliably in clinical use. That's your second point, Steve, and by far the most important. Homeopathic practitioners have never demonstrated an ability to consistently achieve results better than a placebo. Whether that's because the entire field is irrational bunkum or simply because their test samples keep getting contaminated with moonlight is nearly irrelevant from a clinical standpoint. That's the bind that the homeopaths are in; either they need to produce consistent results with an entirely empirical, phenomenological, explanation-less approach (which they haven't been able to do), or they need some sort of physical evidence supporting any kind of rational mechanism (and which might explain why their efforts at therapy are so inconsistent, and guide them in how to improve their method's efficacy). Instead, they fail the clinical tests, and come up with untestable mechanisms. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:22, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Yea, but for all we know, Penicillin doesn't actually work -- it's just a fungi that's been exposed to the healing light of the moon, which provides the real healing effects. I hope you've enjoyed my Homeopathy dissertation.JoelWhy (talk) 14:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, we do actually know why it works. As TenOfAllTrades helpfully points out - it inhibits the action of DD-transpeptidase. But it's certainly true that this deep, underlying mechanism wasn't understood when the treatment was first used. But that doesn't mean to say that we didn't understand "why it works". Fleming was culturing Staphylococcus bacteria on agar plates and noticed that wherever there was a colony of some particular blue-green mould, there was a region on the plate where no bacteria were growing. So he knew that the presence of this Penicillium notatum mould killed bacteria. Since we knew that bacteria are the cause of many infections, it made solid logical sense to use Penicillium notatum to cure infections. Why? Because infections are caused by bacteria and penicillin kills bacteria. That's a pretty solid "why it works" connection in my mind! The "why" was understood to a level appropriately deep to suggest that trials in mice should be undertaken...and when that was shown to actually work, human trials were undertaken - and when those also worked, we started using it to routinely treat infections. Subsequent understanding of the mechanism by which penicillin works has produced further breakthroughs in the treatment of infection.

There are three separate lessons for homeopathists there:

1. You find something that you have some solid experimental reason to believe might work. The "why" of the treatment.
2. You have to test that something actually works before you start giving it to people.
3. If you do find an effective treatment without fully understanding why it works at the deeper levels of biochemistry, you continue to do good science to gain that understanding.

These things are essential in order to be sure that you're actually helping people and not poisoning them or preventing them from seeking existing other "known to be effective" treatments (two serious issues with homeopathy). The "why" part is essential because understanding "why it works" almost always results in ways to improve the treatments' efficacy and/or to find alternative treatments with fewer side-effects that work using the same biochemical pathway.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Try this one on for size: Swan S. "Luna" Homeopathic World October 1, 1883. pages 469-475

Describes the "proving" of that imponderable. Makes an interesting read. LeadSongDog come howl! 22:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

...and powerfully conveys why you need a control for every experiment, with double-blinding and a statistically meaningful sample of test subjects! SteveBaker (talk) 12:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Imponderable is a term that within homeopathy classifies a group of remedies that are not from plants, animals, milks, minerals etc. Its not unusual for a word to have a slightly different meaning within a discipline, its ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Hahnemann made a remedy from magnetic field, so its not at odds with how he made remedies. Cjwilky (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

If that is how you define 'imponderable' then it is not a slightly different meaning. It is known in great detail what causes a magnetic field, how it behaves and how it can be manipulated, it is not imponderable, at all.Acleron (talk) 21:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm confused. Since a magnetic field is not an imponderable using the standard definition, and it is an imponderable for homeopaths, doesn't that mean the definition is, in fact, different? (I'm not defending the concept, obviously, as the entire concept is patently absurd, using a standard definition or not -- but, if they use a different definition, I suppose it should be indicated here.)JoelWhy (talk) 21:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Not imponderable, "imponderable". Hahnemann was using the term "imponderabilia" in the 1830s, when there was far less knowledge of magnetic fields (or for that matter of viruses), and the term continues in homeopathic usage. The special meanings of jargon terms like "imponderable" and "remedy" is the reason we had them in "scare quotes". It conveys to the reader that the encyclopedia distinguishes the jargon from the regular meaning of the term. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:42, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Hallelujah! Cjwilky (talk) 23:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Wait, so basically, Hahnemann said "F***ing magnets, how do they work?" 86.** IP (talk) 11:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Can someone ban this IP please, or at least check which registered user has used that same IP Cjwilky (talk) 18:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why? (btw: 86.** IP isn't an anon). --Six words (talk) 20:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Cjwilky, feel free to submit a report at WP:SPI. Just be prepared to be laughed out of the room. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:17, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, just great - another common English word that has some entirely different meaning to homeopathists. Is there a list of these somewhere? It's very hard to discuss the article - or to write a decent article that non-homeopathists can understand when the words found in our homeopathy references have to be so carefully translated into regular English. SteveBaker (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Torsion fields

Our article Torsion field (pseudoscience) says that this (whack-job) theory has been proposed as an explanation for Homeopathy. Sounds like we should at least mention it someplace. Does anyone have any deeper insight and maybe a reference or three? SteveBaker (talk) 14:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

First 5 minutes in google and can only turn up the same phrase as in the wiki article which doesn't reference the application to homeopathy. We have so many explanations (quantum, energy, nanobubbles, silica, clathrates and so on) that are wrongly based on accepted science, do we need to include an explanation to a pseudoscience which is based on pseudoscience? My inclination is to have a form of words such as 'and other explanations not based on any known acience are touted'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acleron (talk • contribs) 17:56, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

"…an explanation to a pseudoscience which is based on pseudoscience…" Excellent. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 22:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Article is confusing and uninformative

I'm a third-year medical student and I cannot understand this article at all. Specifically -

Practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations[1][2] believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the person treated.

This sentence seems to describe the central mechanics of this field and is completely ambiguous. I've read this article three times and I'm left more confused at each successive attempt to understand the subject matter. It would be helpful if the introduction could be reworked by someone familiar with the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.60.103.171 (talk) 08:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

To treat a patient, homeopaths select substances that they claim cause the patient's symptoms in healthy people, repeatedly dilute and shake mixtures of such substances, and give them to the affected patient, in the belief that it will cure the symptoms in the sick that it caused in the healthy ("like cures like"). The solution eventually given to the patient is so dilute that it contains none of the original substance: it's essentially water shaken in hope with a tincture of self-delusion.

The sentence is so convoluted because it's trying to fold in several issues, including the fact that it's not clear that the original substances actually cause the symptoms homeopaths believe they do. - Nunh-huh 08:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the whole "water memory" thing. Yes, that's right, future doctor, water remembers the stuff that was mixed into it, and then used those memories to cure the patients. (Damn, what are they teaching these kids in medical school nowadays?!)JoelWhy (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you both for your insights. Maybe the the sentence in question can be reworked to incorporate something along these lines which seems more readable (This is not my description. I'm hesitant to provide the original URL which may be unnecessarily provocative):

"...Thinking that these treatments were intended to "balance the body's 'humors' by opposite effects," he developed his "law of similars"—a notion that symptoms of disease can be cured by extremely small amounts of substances that produce similar symptoms in healthy people when administered in large amounts...." --64.150.184.38 (talk) 13:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. It's probably harder for us to recognize the lead as confusing since the editors on this page tend to know a decent amount about the topic (making it easy to assume it makes as much sense to "outsiders" as it does to us.) Maybe we should kick around a few ideas for rewording the lead.JoelWhy (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been having an off-wiki discussion about several pseudoscience articles, but especially homeopathy and acupuncture, both thoroughly and absolutely (well, as absolutely as science can take us) debunked. Neither work. Neither do much for health other than the supposed "placebo effect", which in medical research is another word for "miserable failure." Yet, because of a complete misunderstand and misuse of WP:NPOV, both articles are very confusing, even to an expert reader like me or the OP of this thread. Because the "pro-pseudoscience" crowd (and I don't know if that's completely true, but reading the archives of the discussion here, it seems so) make broad attempts to undermine the science, in both articles the language becomes so convoluted, that you can't tell what's being written. It's just ridiculous that we don't write like most individuals in science-based (or the less restrictive evidence-based) medicine. The state what works and what doesn't, and neither homeopathy or acupuncture work.

During the off-wiki discussion, which included several Wikipedia vets, real scientists and doctors, and a few plain old people like me, it became clear that although everyone hates Wikipedia's lousy standards for pseudoscience, no one cares to deal with the problems here. If this article was written from the Scientific POV, which in science articles is the neutral POV, then the lead would be clear. It would list what homeopathy is. One paragraph. Paragraphs two and three would state why it doesn't work, and the consequences of using it. There is a classic criminal trial in process in Australia where the homeopath continued to treat a "patient" that was nearing end-stage rectal cancer. That should be in here. The lead must state without a single iota of doubt that homeopathy is just water. Oh, and to get around the true believers of homeopathy, water cannot possibly retain a "memory" unless we suspend all laws of physics. We really fail here in providing a forum (in the article) for bad science wrapped in a lot of badly written language, that makes it totally impossible to determine if it is bad science (or no science at all). We also seem to not require the old "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" meme for any pseudoscience article, but especially acupuncture and homeopathy.

So I completely am on board with the OP. I'm not sure if he thinks homeopathy works or not (and the quality of medical education these days is appalling where even Harvard teaches snot-nosed medical students about junk medicine), but they are correct, this article makes no sense, and requires prior knowledge of the field to read it without blowing out an AVM in the brain. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 15:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with SkepticalRaptor, I understand that this article needs to be informative about what homeopathy is, its history and so on. But when there is no science to support, many cases of harm and no peer-reviewed articles supporting the claim, why isn't that clear in the article. If you call the poison control people and tell them you have just taken an overdose of homeopathy they laugh at you. Seems like leaving the article as it is is confusing people and possibly causing harm. Sgerbic (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

overdosing on homeopathy section?

I've just found a secondary source from a Sacramento newspaper that has made me think that the homeopathy page might benefit from a section on activism against homeopathy. There was a large amount of attention Feb 2011 with the 10:23 campaign by skeptic groups mostly overdosing, some alone, some in large groups. I'm sure there must be some citations existing besides just the videos. I know James Randi did a very public overdose on sleeping pills some years ago. I also remember seeing a video of a woman taking it over several days when she was sick, and then calling the poison control center when she took too much. Before I go scouting around for more references, what is the opinion of this group? Here's the Sacramento article that made me think of this. http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/drugs-not-bugs/content?oid=5825955&fb_source=message Sgerbic (talk) 16:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Randi routinely begins lectures by swallowing a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and somehow manages to stay awake for his entire lecture. Clearly, Randi possesses a superhuman ability to remain awake!JoelWhy (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I knew it. Randi is so powerful, that he's debunking homeopathy, so that he can start Randipathy, an alternative medicine that requires drinking his blood. Or something. But seriously, we really should talk about how there are significant protests against homeopathy. And maybe we should include the Australian criminal trial against the homeopath. Let's NPOV this article, and get rid of the weasel bones thrown to homeopathic nonsense supporters. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 17:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, this article could really benefit from more balance and NPOV. It sounds like you both have good ideas for getting started with that. Allecher (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I think we would have to be careful about too much of a discussion on anecdotal accounts such as Randi's. Not saying we can't include it at all, but it certainly can't be a strong emphasis w/in the article.JoelWhy (talk) 18:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Joel, this is kind of what frustrates me (and just speaking for me) about Wikipedia. We allow the homeopathic potion POV to stand because we're trying to be nice, even if it's based on highly suspect information. We try to do the same on the other side of the coin, and we get stopped. As long as homeopathy is in the top 3 of hits for homeopathy, don't we have a duty to mankind to show the average reader that homeopathy doesn't work? And when we say "it doesn't work", we mean "it's a joke." NPOV shouldn't be "well, we'll give the homeopaths a few sentences so that they don't whine like little girls", it should mean "there is no evidence that it does work, there's boatloads of evidence that it does not work. It's just water, and there is no scientific principle that supports water doing anything more than rehydration." I'd be willing to wiki-fy that.  :) SkepticalRaptor (talk) 18:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I agree we should make it crystal clear that the science shows it doesn't work and there is no conceivable mechanism for it to work. But, the reason we know this is not from Randi's "debunking" -- I'm sure Randi would be the first to admit that what he's doing is really just a fun stunt that doen't prove or disprove much of anything. We know it's nonsense based on the science. Homeopaths are the ones who have to rely on anecdotes to show it works. Just as we can't allow them to include anecdotal accounts here, we can't be guilty of the same.JoelWhy (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it amusing that the science side can have fun with this stuff, but the anti-science side gets all offended? Anyways, our anecdotes are honorable and based on real science. So there! :P SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I see what you're saying JoelWhy, but I do think that a mention of public "overdoses" and other organized opposition would add something important to the article. It's certainly a newsworthy phenomenon considering it's been reported in the Sacremento (as Sgerbic mentioned) as well as the Guardian and New Scientist. As an analogy of sorts, the page for Evolution includes a [and cultural responses] section which mentions creationist opposition. When folks come to wikipedia to find out what homeopathy is, I think it's important for them to see that there is a larger public discourse going on surrounding the merits of the field.Dustinlull (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly willing to include any reputable scientific articles from homeopaths that answer the question why overdoses don't kill. So this sounds like people are okay with the idea? What would we title it? Skeptical activism? Overdosing on homeopathy? The 10:23 Campaign and other activism? Ideas? Sgerbic (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I would favor naming the section something broader like "Skeptical activism" or "Public opposition" because we might want to also add something about the various lawsuits.Dustinlull (talk) 21:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Description in lead is incorrect

The following description says that the diluted preparation causes symptoms in healthy people but that is incorrect. The diluted preparation does nothing to healthy people (and nothing that science can detect in sick people either but that's not the issue here), it's the undiluted substance that is believed to cause symptoms in healthy people similar to what the diluted preparation is suppose to cure.

"Practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the person treated."

I edited it by adding the text underlined text:

"Practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations using substances which, when undiluted, are believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the person treated."

It was deleted with the summary "Changes removes how homeopathy works.". But that is wrong, just as the sentence is/was wrong. Jojalozzo 04:39, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Relax. Attacking editors is just not cool. If you blow out a carotid on such a minor point, I'd hate to see what happens with a really important edit. Enjoy whatever you want to do. There are more civil ways to go about this. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 05:55, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any attack occurring here. The concern is a legitimate one, one which has been expressed many times over several years, but for some reason one source has always been used to trump many other sources to back up the current version, which doesn't make sense. I long ago gave up trying to make it sensible according to normal homeopathic practice. Joja is just trying to make it logical and according to normal practice (how homeopathic supposedly "works"), which goes against that one source. Making a proving and the final remedy essentially identical doesn't make any sense, but that's what the article has been saying for some time. Whatever. Just don't blame Joja for trying to improve things and getting frustrated. Joja is correct. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, because it's so important to worry about grammar instead of writing what we should, that is, "This crap doesn't work." Like acupuncture, this is an unreadable article that was written to make sure the homeopaths don't complain so much, instead of be solidly scientific. My cynicism about whether Joja did anything useful remains, not because he or she is incompetent, but because of all the things that need to be done on the article, he or she got offended by a throwaway edit with a rude comment here. Seriously, he/she/it needs a chill pill. So we've wasted three paragraphs on grammar, and 0 on removing the pro-homeopathy POV. Truly amusing and ironic. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 06:57, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for not being clearer. I was not offended by the reversion and I didn't mean your edit summary was grammatically incorrect, I meant it was factually incorrect. Let's not personalize this. The sentence I edited is supposed to describe how homeopathy is supposed to work, but from my reading, no homeopath would agree that "highly diluted preparations [are] believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals." It's illogical and absurd. I am not familiar with any source that would support this statement and if there is one I would challenge it as fringe. Jojalozzo 15:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

It's how the ideas were set out by Hahnemann, and that's what should be in the lead; though in the article we might want to point out homeopathy is much sloppier about how it defines what remedies do what now, with there being essentially no real standards as to how you decide what remedy does what. 86.** IP (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Homeopaths seem to be incapable of standardizing their treatment, so it makes it impossible to describe accurately. We need to explain what homeopaths think is homeopathy, not what we know it to be. Hence my original change, which now seem irrelevant. Not worth any further discussion, I capitulate. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, logic fails when trying to deal with homeopathy, but originally Hahnemann did use undiluted substances in his provings, which could sometimes be a dangerous endeavor. The proving and finished remedy were VERY different!

We have used a source that claims he stopped doing that and that homeopaths have since then used diluted substances in their provings, which happens to be contrary to the descriptions of modern day provings on many homeopathic websites. They claim that provings are undiluted substances (Hahnemann's original method). That leaves us with a dilemma: Should we only use that one source and ignore the others, leaving the impression that all provings are diluted substances? I think we should make it clear that the matter is a confused mess, with both undiluted and diluted substances being used in provings. Sure, it's illogical, but since when is homeopathy logical?! -- Brangifer (talk) 17:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should explain that even the homeopaths don't agree. Sgerbic (talk) 18:22, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I've just changed it back, as it is stated in the Organon that provings should be carried out using diluted remedies, and clear from accounts of modern provings that this is actually done, and is clear that homoeopaths believe that the remedies themselves cause the 'proving symptoms' - see for example the many instances where homoeopaths have claimed that taking duilute remedies will make their critics ill. Brunton (talk) 22:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

No, they warn against it because they believe it's possible to overdose on the final remedies. Reality has proven otherwise.

There is a certain form of logical symmetry in the basic and original homeopathic idea, even if it's purely metaphysical word magic without any reality regarding treating disease:

• 1. When an undiluted substance is given to a healthy individual, it can cause symptoms.
• 2. When that substance is diluted and given to a sick individual, it can relieve the same symptoms and cure them.

That bit of "logic" is disturbed when we only cite the modern practice of some homeopaths when they do provings. We are not describing the basic and original homeopathic philosophy. That's just plain wrong and confusing. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:03, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I see that I'm uninformed on the modern state of this topic. I also capitulate. Jojalozzo 22:32, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

This is what aggravates me about your change. I was unhappy with what I wrote, but at least it made some sense, and I understand what your change is supposed to do, but I'm not sure it actually makes any more or less sense than my change. This is so confusing. We should decide whether to write it from the perspective of what the homeopath is trying to claim, or just debunk it. This half-way writing is just beyond confusing. Not trying to state exactly what should be written, we should write "blah blah blah, this is what homeopaths claim is happening." Followed by "however, science has clearly found that homeopathy is crap, because a) there is no evidence that the substances cause the disease, b) because diluting the substance does not do anything even if there's an effect, c) water does not have the ability to "remember" anything, and d) homeopathy is a joke. " You may have to fix some of my NPOV. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I understand Skeptical Raptor's frustration. I'm trying to follow this conversation and my head is swimming. This article is for the general public to understand what Homeopathy is, what its history is and more background on it. And yes, I do think we should make sure the lede is very clear about there being No science behind the claim. I like the way SR has laid it all out, of course without the starkness. But it should be that clear. Why are we tiptoeing around this topic? If there is evidence that homeopathy works then we can put it in the article. But the evidence needs to be evidence that WP will support, not "I felt better after taking it" kind of evidence. This is WP afterall, lets write it clearly, so the average person will understand the facts. We can always change the lede if the facts also change. In the mean time the facts are what SR stated. Sgerbic (talk) 23:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Skeptical Raptor that this whole article is a mess. Way to much weight has been given to the pro-homeopathy side of the article and the overall flow of the article is disjointed. This sentence should be moved ," Practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations[1][2] believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the person treated." as it is confusing to the uninitiated. Too much information about SH is also placed in the lede which would be better placed in the history section.Daffydavid (talk) 00:26, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly a lot of the confusion is due to changes in homeopathic practice. I think that most remedies are still based on Hahnemann's self-provings using undiluted or slightly diluted solutions but apparently modern homeopaths now conduct provings using remedy strength solutions and neither approach has a scientific basis. There should be a way to capture that concisely, e.g. "Originally, practitioners devised preparations by highly diluting substances that, in undiluted form, were believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the preparations' targeted conditions ("like cures like"). Modern homeopaths develop new preparations which they say, even at very high dilutions, cause similar symptoms in healthy people as those experienced by unhealthy people who would benefit from the remedy. There is no scientific basis for either the original or the modern approach." Jojalozzo 00:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe homeopathy intentionally obfuscates things. Your sentence actually makes the most sense ever. I think there's too much confusion by what homeopathy is supposed to be rather than how it is practiced now. Which is a bit ironic that they can't even get their "medicine" right, because it's just water. Why don't you just write what you said here. I'm sure we can support it. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 02:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Joja, I agree with SR. You sum it up perfectly. We need to state the original concept, and also state what some modern homeopaths do by using diluted substances (and other modern ones claim to use undiluted substances in provings...). -- Brangifer (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Disaster!!

Respectfully, this article is incomprehensible! Please editors, do not assume that a casual reader possesses prior knowledge of this field! Who wrote this? Dr. Seuss?? --Axatax (talk) 06:05, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

As people say around here, this is not a forum. If you have a specific point, then please bring it. If you want something changed, then describe it. If you want this article to say "Homeopathy works," then you probably should find another article to edit. Just a suggestion.

I'm sorry if I offended. I came here looking for information on this subject, but this article is far too esoteric for a non-indoctrinated person. I can find no specific point of contention: the whole article reads like voodoo.

SkepticalRaptor (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)