Talk:Master race

This article holds that the Mater Race is something that already exists, whereas normally I have heard it used in the context of something that will be achieved through eugenics. User:H7asan

I've removed this sentence, since it seems very obscure, and ios also rather distracting and confusing ['[it] was first used by the British colonial power to denote the original inhabitants of the areas (colonies) that they had conquered and ruled.]. Why would the people being ruled over be the 'master race'? Clearly this usage is wholly different from the standard one, and appears to be no more than a coincidence of phrasing. It should not be main definition of the term. Paul B

Paul, yes, it is somewhat unusual but correct, I think. I copied it from the German version, which I did not write. I am quite sure that Hitler openly admitted that the British colonial policy inspired him to do the same for his colonization of eastern europe. Andries 19:28, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Concept of Master Race is not something that purely applies to the German usage of the concept. It is a common recurring theme throughout many mythologies and stories of a people of unblemished spiritual descent, similar to the concept of demigods. The word "Aryan" in the Central Asian cultures implies people who are "great ones", or "heavenly/divine ones" in translation, and the concept of Aryan and Master Race were used in some ways by Nietzsche in his supraman ideology before the Fascists adopted the idea into their own twisted version of it.

People of "unblemished spiritual descent" do no belong in this article, which is about theories of racial difference. Nietzsche was not concerned with race. Paul B 10:01, 31 July, 2005 (UTC)

May I just say that Nietzsche's own ideas were almost (but not quite) fascist, so although they modified his ideas they did not 'twist' them. I know it i sfashionable to talk as if Nietzsche was a decent man and a good man...etc...however it doesn't cut any ice when you look at his works. You can see by reading them, who the Nazi's modified them (easily) to fit with thheir own agenda.

Nietzsche was over racist. The german version of this page denied no more the verifiable fact: hundreds and hundreds of Nietzsche's phrases reveal an explicit biological and social cruel racist. These phrases are hidden or manipulate by certain ideologists. Sorry, but see yourself some citations in: www.alonsofia.com--193.153.225.34 (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

P.S. And why would Hitler take British Colonial Policy (which has many differences to Nazi Colonial Policy), becase the British used the term 'Master Race' in reference to the indigenious inhabitants of a regions. It shows whoever wrote that in the (German) article's lack of knowledge if A) He thinks the two 'nations' had the same or similar colonial policies or that the idea of 'Master Race' stems for that (completely unreleated) term. - Lucius Anonimus

Blond/Blue Italians

"Italians, under the rule of Benito Mussolini, are not known for having blond hair and blue eyes, yet they fought alongside the Germans as Aryans."

First, there is a disconnect between perception and reality here; being "known for" a characteristic really has nothing to do with anything Italians themselves can do or control. (e.g. the world was once known for being flat, yet the explorers never fell off)

Also, though the experience is anecdotal, Italy seems to be chock-full of blond haired, blue-eyed citizens. Perhaps this isn't the case on The Sopranos and other television and movie portrayals, but in reality... <((Insert Anti-Human propaganda here))>

Those are not native Italians, they are from the Lombards, Vikings and other German related people who ivaded after the fall of Rome, which is why Rome and Europe went into the dark agaes, only to be reborn after the African Moors had to inadvertantly show them the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.86 (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Colonial US

In the US a similar concept exsisted. Benjamin Franklin clearly proposed a division between Anglo-Saxons & Saxons and the rest of Europeans whom he considered to be "Swathy Whites." This ideology which was somewhat popular in the US during the late 18^th and early 19^th century created a defacto, Anglo-Saxon/Saxon master race. The concept is initially the same; thus I beleive the exsistance of a master race concept in the colonial United States ought to be mentioned here. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 21:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Franklin's views are not really very clearly thought-through, as expressed in his article, which you can see here.[1] He is rather vague about why these Anglo-Saxons are more "lovely", and which races should be included in loveliness (he refers to the white and also the "red" - presumably meaning natives) and he also says that maybe this is just his own preference. There's no clearly articulated theory behind it at this stage. Paul B 08:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Franklin's views are just Anglo-Saxonism. Whilst the master race concept clearly comes from the USA it was a post-colonial development and seems to be partly in reaction to Anglo-Saxonism.--Rusty Tonic (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

NPOV.

There isn't one single indication or comment about the fact that the theories about matser races (whether nazi or japanese or anything else) have been widely discredited. That's not very NPOV. ;) --Regebro 18:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I quote from the article: "Most modern geneticists no longer give credence to the hierarchical model of race on which the policies of eugenics and racial hygiene are built. The concepts involved in this theory of Germanic superiority is also strongly contested. Most modern scholars see no connection between Indo-European population movements and alleged "Nordic" racial characteristics." Paul B 20:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, that's under Aryanism. Are we to conclude that Nordicism IS given credence? :-) But fine, there is some text I can use, I'll move it. --Regebro 21:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It was in that category because it comes after the Nordic category, and the statement links the two. Paul B 22:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was in the category after the Nordic category, ie, the Arian category. Anyway, I have fixed it now. :) --Regebro 22:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It was put there to link the two sections on both Nordic and Aryan concepts - at the end of the discussion of the factual aspects of the issue as a summing up. Paul B 00:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why it was put there, just how it ended up, and it ended up looking like it was ONLY referencing Aryanism, and it looked hidden away as a small aside. I moved it to the top of the page where it clearly is about both, and where it is NOT hidden away, thereby making the article less POV. I honestly have no idea why you are even discussing this. --Regebro 11:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

How can it "only" reference Aryanism when it in fact explicitly refers to the Nordic concept??? If people read the article - which is quite short - it isn't "hidden" at all. I don't mind the section being at the top, but I was explaining that there was also a sensible reason why it was where it was. Paul B 12:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I attempted to correct this but Paul Barlow keeps on reverting my corrections --- Skapur 23:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

And you you deleted the discussion, apparently to misrepresent my position - which is a serious no-no. Paul B 23:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not intentionally delete it. I did not see it. Was it an edit save conflict? --- Skapur 00:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

An edit conflict from several hours ago? I don't think so. Here's the evidence. [2] Paul B 00:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry. I did not do it intentionally. --- Skapur 00:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. Never mind, fixed now. Paul B 16:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Unique to Europe?

Is the master race concept really unique to Europe? What about Japan in the early 20th century? I have the impression that this was an ideoalogy of racial superioroty as well? Is that a misunderstanding? --Regebro 11:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult to say. What's distinct about Europe is the way it claimed to be based on scientific taxonomies of race and had acres academic-sounding literature to back it up. I don't think there was anything comparable in Japan, but it would be interesting to know. Numerous cultures throughout history have believed that their people were superior to others for various reasons, which often mixed cultural, environmentalist and other arguments. These certainly often included the vaguely "racialist" concept of "superior breeding" and "purity". They also sometimes articulated features such as skin colour (as in the ancient Egyptian racial/ethnic taxonomy). But the specific concept of a "master race" as such - defined by anthropometrics - is very distinctive to European theories of racial taxonomy which didn't really exist before the 19th century. If someone knows more about Japanese thinking at this time it would be useful to discuss. We could also explore the history of the idea of ethnic superiority. Paul B 12:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese i've met have a valid claim to being a local Master-Race, i'm afraid to admit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal

I removed the section on Tolkien as the central premise (along with most of the details) was inaccurate. The idea that Tolkien portrayed the Numenoreans as 'morally superior' runs into trouble when considering that they slipped into 'devil worship' and human sacrifice... he also specifically wrote that intermarrying with other men was NOT the cause of their decay... indeed, that was the claim advanced by the evil Castamir the Usurper against the rightful (mixed blood) king Eldacar of Gondor. Et cetera. The presentation of Tolkien's work in the article just was not accurate. --CBD 23:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nordic race.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Other uses

• Muslims referring to non-Muslims as "infidels" and giving them effectively sub-human "rights" in Islamic countries?
• Jews, especially Zionists, referring to "Goi", and dehumanising Palestinians?
• Romans and Greeks referring to pretty much all others as "barbarians"?
• Khoisan using the same word they use for "wild animals" to describe Caucasoid and Negroid peoples?
• Indians using various racist terms for both south Indians, and Europeans?

etc

etc

But the "Master Race" theory is uniquely Germanic in character and design. That's nice to know. Only Nordics can be racist. It is physically impossible for ANY other human group to be racist. Alternatively, this article could be cleaned up......

None of this is about race specifically, but about cultural or religious identity (and 'goy', btw, just means 'people'). In none of these cases is there a concept that a particular race has physically innate qualities of leadership, which is essentially what the adea of a master race is about. Paul B (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Referring to people racially unlike you is about race specifically(Khoisan). Likewise there are countless writings by Greeks and Romans mocking the "darker" and "lighter" races.

"Goyim" means "cattle". There are various references to "God's chosen People", and how non-Jews are beneath the "Chosen Ones". Whether that means race specifically today, what with some degree of interbreeding is a matter of discussion, but saying that "Master Race Theory" is uniquely Germanic is just plain wrong. In fact, the original "Nordic supremacists" were French. Likewise the movement took roots in Russia, where a remnant survives today. There are various "master race" ideaologies in the world today. For example the Bantu peoples of Central Africa regard themselves as naturally "superior" to their Bambutid neighbours. Or the lighter-skinned Israelis regard themselves as somehow "superior" both to dark-erskinned Palestinians and darker-skinned Orientalid ans Sephardic Jews. There is likewise "master race" bias in India today. Or how about Afrocentrism ? And the list goes on and on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.152.206 (talk) 12:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Goyim does not mean and never has meant cattle. That's pure myth. Look up the word. No one disputes that people in group A have considered themselves to be superior to people group B in numerous cultures througout history, but that's not how the tem "master race" is used. Yes the ideas of Boulainvilliers lay behind those of Gobineau, and the concept evolved in Nordicism, but the specific concept of a master race as such only became clearly defined in Nazi ideology. Paul B (talk) 12:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you consider to be 'clearly defined'? Surely that is entirely subjective. Is it also pure myth that the Talmud refers to certain laws that place Jews above non-Jews, or that many prominent Israelis have referred to non-Jews as "beasts that walk on two legs"? The problem here is that this article attempts to display that only the Germanic peoples(who do not really exist as such, if you consider the meaning), are the only "Master Race" promoters in history, when clearly "master race" theories abound today. The Germans may or may not have been the only people to use the specific term "master race", but so what? ANY claims of superioirty of other peoples is a "Master Race" ideaology. So why make this German-specific? Surely that in itself is racist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.158.152.206 (talk) 12:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this article ever says what you are implying, which is that only Germanic peoples claimed to be of a superior race. You're trying to equate a term with a historical and cultural context with a more generalized notion of racial inequality, that is you're pretending to ignore the history behind the term. "Master race" is well understood as specifically Nazi terminology. As you even state yourself, other races have used different terminology to assert their superiority, for example Jews calling non-Jews "beasts".66.188.125.219 (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

21st century neo-liberal interpretation

Hybrid Vigour. the 'master race' would acheive supremacy in any culture, in any geographical location. (nietzche's idea of the Overman.. assimilating ALL local adaptations? - as a descendant of polish noblemen i think he would not aprove of the Nazi's Eugenic's programme - alliance with Stalin in exterminating his parents' cultures' superior members.)

Hybrid Vigour would achieve the 'master race'. although continual DARWINIAN SELECTION is a pre-requisite. —Preceding the 'overman' would have no need for a 'parent master race'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

hence i justify...

"Materialism Is The Most Humane Form Of Darwinian Selection"

unsigned comment added by 81.153.189.239 (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason the ruling class has lighter skin

Is because they sit indoors all day and never go out in the sun. That's not science, it's common sense. 199.117.69.8 (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Any Proof?

I hereby challenge the claim that the term master race or German: Herrenrasse was a concept in Nazi ideology. I claim it was not but rather a propaganda term used by the Allies.

Please give proof (original sources) that this term was used in speeches or publications by/of any Nazi leaders between 1933 and 1945. 62.226.30.93 (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be great if someone could pinpoint when the allies first started using the term 'master race' in relation to the nazis' belief. Was it during the war?--Rusty Tonic (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

You are true. There is not a single source for the use of the word "Herrenrasse" by any German official or any written document using it. The whole subject itself was created by Allied prodaganda and developed into its own fictional, fantasy universe fueled mostly by comic & film, and lately video games. --84.171.167.157 (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Many European groups are missing on the hierachical list

Greeks and Slavs for example. 199.117.69.60 (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Amazing how you WN Stormfront people love to retcon history yet at the same time the types of discussions you have and things you believe in RE-ITERATE history. 97.118.191.93 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Dubious fictional representations

I have tagged the Fictional representations section as dubious, with a few additional citation tags, rather than just deleting the whole thing outright. Almost everything in here is spurious at best. Starting with the Lovecraft and Howard comments; they may have one or two works about Aryan races but saying that the Master Race concept "underlies much of the work" is a stretch. It goes on to comment on Conan, which seems to me to imply that the character is part of the Aryan Master Race. This is false, the character of Conan is Celtic rather than Teutonic. The section ends with a Star Trek reference, "recovery [after WWIII] is accomplished partly by the European Hegemony." The presence of this comment also seems to imply that European Hegemony is a Nazi institution or otherwise related to a Master Race of some kind. This is unlikely considering the Trek back story (WWIII was also called the "Eugenics Wars" and successfully fought against a Master Race) and the term "European Hegemony" itself is likely to just be a science fiction version of European Union. If no objections are raised, I will delete this section soon. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It's true that "Conan" is a Celtic name (probably derived from the historical Conan Meriadoc), but Conan in the stories is a Cimmerian, not a Celt. The Cimmerians were an Iranic people. The point is that Conan is supposed to have existed in an imaginary prehistorical phase before tribal distinctions between Celts, Iranians and others emerged. However, if you look at the Aryan article, you will see that both are "Aryans". You are making the mistake of equating 'Aryan' with 'Germanic'. In fact the Conan stories mirror the "arctic Aryan" origin hypothesis typical of the period. I suspect you are right about the Star Trek passage. The section probably needs to be cleaned up rather than deleted. Lovecraft and Howard (along with Tolkein) are writing in heyday of these theories and their work reflects them, butr Star Trek comes from a different context. Paul B (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Howard uses the Aryan Drift theory with a number of stories but not Conan. Howard's Cimmerians are explicitly stated to be the ancestors of the Celts; s:The Hyborian Age outlines the fictional history of his setting, if you are interested. In his version the Aryans are mostly descended from the Æsir (Viking-equivalents) while "the Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans." A separate series of stories about James Allison are set during the Aryan Drift, as well as the similar "Children of the Night". The wording at very least needs amended to remove the ambiguity/inference. Searching for "Aryan" and "Lovecraft" on wikisource shows a few works in which he mentions Aryans in passing as a part of history but nothing directly about the Master Race. Lovecraft was a racist (he wrote "The negro is fundamentally the biological inferior of all White and even Mongolian races") and even supported fascism for a while but, again, there is no evidence I can find, and certainly nothing cited in the article, that says about the Master Race. I'm not sure about the accuracy of Buck Rogers fighting for "Aryan-Americans" (again, no citation); the Armageddon 2419 A.D. doesn't seem to support it, mentioning only Americans. The rest are all post WW2 stories deliberately referencing the Nazis; I'm not sure about their inclusion or not ("Series X used fictional Nazi master Race-equivalents in Episode N" isn't really notable). - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Forgotten

As much as I despise this concept, I realized they left out Arabs, (Oriental) Asians, Indians and Native Americans. (though that's probably a good thing) 76.179.135.129 (talk) 22:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Problem with article

The problem with this article is the conflation of the specific and the general, with Nazi Herrenvolk and the concept of master race as held by various groups. I think the article should be more general, with sub paragraphs on use by the various groups; if people are so obssessed with the Nazi concept above all others then it should be given a separate page again. And why is this part of WikiProject Jewish history and under Jewish history categories?!--Utinomen (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggested merge

As this article is entirely about the Aryan master race concept, I suggest that it would be best to merge it into Aryan race as a new section. Without any other race being covered under the heading of master race, there is no need for a separate article. Mergeing them together should produce a better suingle article than either of the separately. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:21, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The article may now entirely be about the Aryan Master race concept but should it? My counter suggestion is Herrenvolk as a seperate article with the nazi stuff from Aryan race included, and this as a general article--Utinomen (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I have just created a more general article called Super race that explores other super race concepts beside the Nazi one. Keraunos (talk) 16:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Master race does not always refer to Nordic peoples

Master race is not always referring to Nordic peoples. In Nazism, Hitler for instance believed that the ancient Romans were a master race of their time.--R-41 (talk) 01:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The Nazis believed the Romans were a master race because they believed the warrior aristocracy of the Romans was composed of Nordic Aryans who had migrated there from Northern Europe in prehistoric times. Keraunos (talk) 16:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Aryans were Indians

First of all Aryans were Indians. They originated from India. There was no Aryan Invasion and archelogical evidences prove that there was no invasion. Aryan Invasion is a concocted story by Europen countries because they were unable to accept the fact Indian race was also a Cascasian race. British also emphasized on that false claim so that they can apply the devide and rule policy North India vs South India which they have been well known to do throughout Indian History. Others were Hindu vs Muslim, Sikh vs Hindu, Sikh vs Muslim etc etc. It is quite possible Indian race might be a master race as it is very easy to identify someone has Indian ancestry just by looking at them even if they only have a hint of Indian blood. Other possible master races are Mongoloid and Negroid as these are also easily identifiable just by looking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.57.79.155 (talk) 18:51, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

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horrible article

There are so many mistakes in that article it is unbelievable. My favorite is idea of one singe, homogenous ideology. [There were many different anthropological schools, different ideas about "Entnordung" (historical reduction of nordic racial elements; the old germanic people were more nordic and therefore considered more "progressive"), about liberalism/birth rates/race mixing reducing the "quality" of human beings), the Ostara-mythologies (wich were never taken seriously) and many different theories

Even the translation "masterrace" is problematic. "Master" and the German "Herr" are not identical.