Talk:Homeopathy

To Do List

add explanation of healing crisis in the context of homeopathy, and how this relates to how homeopathy is claimed to work, including both the homeopathic explanation, and the conventional medical critique. add a broad-brush description of the work of Constantine Hering and James Tyler Kent and how it differs from Hahnemann, keeping the depth of coverage appropriate for a summary article. Kent is noted for "the well-known Kent repertory, on which virtually all modern practise of homeopathy is based" homeopathic hospitals in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were attended by the rich and powerful as the best locations where one could get better. They were relatively clean and calm institutions that had a better cure rate than many of the mainstream clinics of the day. Of course, this was due to the fact that most mainstream hospitals of the day were filthy places where one was more likely to die of an infection rather than be cured. In this, homeopaths of that era were closer to the do no harm dictum of the Hipocratic Oath than many of their contemporaries and, indeed, many practices perfected in homeopathic hospitals are still employed today as best practices for palliative care. The fact that they didn't use the "heroic" measures in common use, such as bloodletting, powerful drugs like arsenic, strychnine, mercury, belladonna, etc. meant that more patients survived, since these drugs often caused more deaths. In many cases doing what amounted to nothing, i.e. placebo homeopathic treatment, was better than doing something, i.e. overkill with poisons, thus letting the body's own recuperative powers do the healing, which for many ordinary ailments is just fine.

Article is confusing and uninformative

I'm a third-year medical student and I cannot understand this article at all. Specifically -

Practitioners treat patients using highly diluted preparations[1][2] believed to cause symptoms in healthy individuals similar to the undesired symptoms of the person treated.

This sentence seems to describe the central mechanics of this field and is completely ambiguous. I've read this article three times and I'm left more confused at each successive attempt to understand the subject matter. It would be helpful if the introduction could be reworked by someone familiar with the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.60.103.171 (talk) 08:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

To treat a patient, homeopaths select substances that they claim cause the patient's symptoms in healthy people, repeatedly dilute and shake mixtures of such substances, and give them to the affected patient, in the belief that it will cure the symptoms in the sick that it caused in the healthy ("like cures like"). The solution eventually given to the patient is so dilute that it contains none of the original substance: it's essentially water shaken in hope with a tincture of self-delusion.

The sentence is so convoluted because it's trying to fold in several issues, including the fact that it's not clear that the original substances actually cause the symptoms homeopaths believe they do. - Nunh-huh 08:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the whole "water memory" thing. Yes, that's right, future doctor, water remembers the stuff that was mixed into it, and then used those memories to cure the patients. (Damn, what are they teaching these kids in medical school nowadays?!)JoelWhy (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you both for your insights. Maybe the the sentence in question can be reworked to incorporate something along these lines which seems more readable (This is not my description. I'm hesitant to provide the original URL which may be unnecessarily provocative):

"...Thinking that these treatments were intended to "balance the body's 'humors' by opposite effects," he developed his "law of similars"—a notion that symptoms of disease can be cured by extremely small amounts of substances that produce similar symptoms in healthy people when administered in large amounts...." --64.150.184.38 (talk) 13:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. It's probably harder for us to recognize the lead as confusing since the editors on this page tend to know a decent amount about the topic (making it easy to assume it makes as much sense to "outsiders" as it does to us.) Maybe we should kick around a few ideas for rewording the lead.JoelWhy (talk) 13:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been having an off-wiki discussion about several pseudoscience articles, but especially homeopathy and acupuncture, both thoroughly and absolutely (well, as absolutely as science can take us) debunked. Neither work. Neither do much for health other than the supposed "placebo effect", which in medical research is another word for "miserable failure." Yet, because of a complete misunderstand and misuse of WP:NPOV, both articles are very confusing, even to an expert reader like me or the OP of this thread. Because the "pro-pseudoscience" crowd (and I don't know if that's completely true, but reading the archives of the discussion here, it seems so) make broad attempts to undermine the science, in both articles the language becomes so convoluted, that you can't tell what's being written. It's just ridiculous that we don't write like most individuals in science-based (or the less restrictive evidence-based) medicine. The state what works and what doesn't, and neither homeopathy or acupuncture work.

During the off-wiki discussion, which included several Wikipedia vets, real scientists and doctors, and a few plain old people like me, it became clear that although everyone hates Wikipedia's lousy standards for pseudoscience, no one cares to deal with the problems here. If this article was written from the Scientific POV, which in science articles is the neutral POV, then the lead would be clear. It would list what homeopathy is. One paragraph. Paragraphs two and three would state why it doesn't work, and the consequences of using it. There is a classic criminal trial in process in Australia where the homeopath continued to treat a "patient" that was nearing end-stage rectal cancer. That should be in here. The lead must state without a single iota of doubt that homeopathy is just water. Oh, and to get around the true believers of homeopathy, water cannot possibly retain a "memory" unless we suspend all laws of physics. We really fail here in providing a forum (in the article) for bad science wrapped in a lot of badly written language, that makes it totally impossible to determine if it is bad science (or no science at all). We also seem to not require the old "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" meme for any pseudoscience article, but especially acupuncture and homeopathy.

So I completely am on board with the OP. I'm not sure if he thinks homeopathy works or not (and the quality of medical education these days is appalling where even Harvard teaches snot-nosed medical students about junk medicine), but they are correct, this article makes no sense, and requires prior knowledge of the field to read it without blowing out an AVM in the brain. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 15:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with SkepticalRaptor, I understand that this article needs to be informative about what homeopathy is, its history and so on. But when there is no science to support, many cases of harm and no peer-reviewed articles supporting the claim, why isn't that clear in the article. If you call the poison control people and tell them you have just taken an overdose of homeopathy they laugh at you. Seems like leaving the article as it is is confusing people and possibly causing harm. Sgerbic (talk) 16:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree the article needs reworking in a way that isn't cluttered. I'll look at this very soon and come up with some plan. Yes I'm a homeopath, yes I personally think the article is biased, but I take on the situation here as it stands at the moment.

I've been practising for nearly 25 years and am not stuck in any particular homeopathy camp. I think I'm able to sieve through some of the more complex and badly worded bits of the article and come up with some referenced clarity. The intro is the first bit to sort, and for sure can be further polished once the rest is done. This is always going to be a long article, I can't see that changing much at all, but its readability is definitely possible to improve.

Skep rap - you along with some others trot out the "no scientific support". Thats evidently not true. Yes, the main meta analysis overall come to the same conclusion (we can look at these in more detail too as time goes on) which gives "the weight" of scientific support mentioned in the article some credibility, but that doesn't equate to "no scientific support".

I look forward to some interesting on topic discussions and a good result. Cjwilky (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand the scientific method. One or two lone papers that seem to show that some hypothesis is true don't constitute any kind of general "scientific support". We expect other experimenters to repeat controversial experiments to verify their results - and to examine the paper for things like experimental slip-ups, statistical errors, failure to properly control for all variables, lack of double-blind techniques or the lack of a sufficiently large statistical sampling to be meaningful. Only when some number of papers have been published on a topic - and they've stood the test of time and not been shot down for making mistakes can you truly say that there is "scientific support". The truth here is that the very small number of papers that claimed to have found an effect larger than placebo have all been found to have errors or biasses of one sort or another. Hence, you're incorrect. There is no scientific support for homeopathy...not a scrap. (Which, incidentally, is why WP:MEDRS requires articles such as this one to be based on secondary or tertiary sources...not the original primary sources which could easily be shown to be in error in some subtle but important way.) SteveBaker (talk) 13:37, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, Steve, one can get an incorrect result from one study (or a small number of studies) even if they were performed perfectly rigorously, with suitable controls, blinding, and sample sizes. Chance variations in patient outcomes will occasionally give a result that appears statistically significant in one properly-conducted clinical trial, but which mysteriously isn't repeatable. That doesn't change your (entirely correct) conclusion, however—as even an utterly-flawless primary study can still fall prey to lucky (bad or good) outcomes, Wikipedia should be extremely reluctant to draw conclusions based on cherry-picked primary sources. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Its still the case that the article needs tidying.

I think its very clear about the issues of experiments not being of good quality. I agree entirely. However, this is the situation. We know why it is, essentially because its difficult with homeopathy, though not impossible. Its also the case that funding is an issue. We'll get to the evidence issue, but lets first clarify some of the more muddy stuff that is more easily cleared up.Cjwilky (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

overdosing on homeopathy section?

I've just found a secondary source from a Sacramento newspaper that has made me think that the homeopathy page might benefit from a section on activism against homeopathy. There was a large amount of attention Feb 2011 with the 10:23 campaign by skeptic groups mostly overdosing, some alone, some in large groups. I'm sure there must be some citations existing besides just the videos. I know James Randi did a very public overdose on sleeping pills some years ago. I also remember seeing a video of a woman taking it over several days when she was sick, and then calling the poison control center when she took too much. Before I go scouting around for more references, what is the opinion of this group? Here's the Sacramento article that made me think of this. http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/drugs-not-bugs/content?oid=5825955&fb_source=message Sgerbic (talk) 16:44, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Randi routinely begins lectures by swallowing a bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and somehow manages to stay awake for his entire lecture. Clearly, Randi possesses a superhuman ability to remain awake!JoelWhy (talk) 17:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I knew it. Randi is so powerful, that he's debunking homeopathy, so that he can start Randipathy, an alternative medicine that requires drinking his blood. Or something. But seriously, we really should talk about how there are significant protests against homeopathy. And maybe we should include the Australian criminal trial against the homeopath. Let's NPOV this article, and get rid of the weasel bones thrown to homeopathic nonsense supporters. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 17:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, this article could really benefit from more balance and NPOV. It sounds like you both have good ideas for getting started with that. Allecher (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I think we would have to be careful about too much of a discussion on anecdotal accounts such as Randi's. Not saying we can't include it at all, but it certainly can't be a strong emphasis w/in the article.JoelWhy (talk) 18:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Joel, this is kind of what frustrates me (and just speaking for me) about Wikipedia. We allow the homeopathic potion POV to stand because we're trying to be nice, even if it's based on highly suspect information. We try to do the same on the other side of the coin, and we get stopped. As long as homeopathy is in the top 3 of hits for homeopathy, don't we have a duty to mankind to show the average reader that homeopathy doesn't work? And when we say "it doesn't work", we mean "it's a joke." NPOV shouldn't be "well, we'll give the homeopaths a few sentences so that they don't whine like little girls", it should mean "there is no evidence that it does work, there's boatloads of evidence that it does not work. It's just water, and there is no scientific principle that supports water doing anything more than rehydration." I'd be willing to wiki-fy that.  :) SkepticalRaptor (talk) 18:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I agree we should make it crystal clear that the science shows it doesn't work and there is no conceivable mechanism for it to work. But, the reason we know this is not from Randi's "debunking" -- I'm sure Randi would be the first to admit that what he's doing is really just a fun stunt that doen't prove or disprove much of anything. We know it's nonsense based on the science. Homeopaths are the ones who have to rely on anecdotes to show it works. Just as we can't allow them to include anecdotal accounts here, we can't be guilty of the same.JoelWhy (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it amusing that the science side can have fun with this stuff, but the anti-science side gets all offended? Anyways, our anecdotes are honorable and based on real science. So there! :P SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I see what you're saying JoelWhy, but I do think that a mention of public "overdoses" and other organized opposition would add something important to the article. It's certainly a newsworthy phenomenon considering it's been reported in the Sacremento (as Sgerbic mentioned) as well as the Guardian and New Scientist. As an analogy of sorts, the page for Evolution includes a [and cultural responses] section which mentions creationist opposition. When folks come to wikipedia to find out what homeopathy is, I think it's important for them to see that there is a larger public discourse going on surrounding the merits of the field.Dustinlull (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm certainly willing to include any reputable scientific articles from homeopaths that answer the question why overdoses don't kill. So this sounds like people are okay with the idea? What would we title it? Skeptical activism? Overdosing on homeopathy? The 10:23 Campaign and other activism? Ideas? Sgerbic (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I would favor naming the section something broader like "Skeptical activism" or "Public opposition" because we might want to also add something about the various lawsuits.Dustinlull (talk) 21:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

One actually *can* overdose on water, (water intoxication) but probably not in any amount that would be encountered in a homeopathic remedy. (This has occurred in MDMA users and at least one radio stunt.--Axatax (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I've made a start on the Public opposition section. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things that need to be inserted. Need a link to the Randi mention. Can someone please supply the citations of the various times he has done this. Sgerbic (talk) 05:07, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

I long ago added similar content (but for slightly different reasons) to this section: Homeopathy#.22Active.22_ingredients. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:46, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

In terms of public opposition I believe we should establish standards on this. I suggest one off events need to be verified in terms of numbers, and really, if we are seriously looking at "Public" opposition we're looking at significant opposition not small collections of ten or twenty people.

There is of course public support too, at least equalling the cited one persons opposition in the article. So I suggest either we add another section of Public Support, or we combine this one, renaming it Public Opposition and Support, or better is Public Opinion possibly? Though the latter wouldn't eg include the single person lawsuit, as its not opinion. To be clear, I'm not suggesting not including lawsuits. Cjwilky (talk) 03:31, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, no opposition to support then ;) I'll create the section and enter relevant information.Cjwilky (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I think you are misstating the facts regarding no opposition to the proposed section as it is discussed below but I'm curious to see what you come up with. Happy Editing. --Daffydavid (talk) 04:31, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I was referred to this section to discuss Pulic Support by another ed - see below. Either way, in other parts of the talk page there were no objection per se, just concerns about NPOV and the references that you gave me (that don't hold weight re having a Support section). Clearly issues would be discussed when content is entered. And of course only support equally as significant as that in the opposition would be in there, and we will not be using homeopaths as support. Usage of homeopathy is support, though has its place in the regulation and prevelance section, so wouldn't need to be gone into in a Support section.Cjwilky (talk) 12:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Ethics and Safety

We have

In an article entitled "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?"[179] published in the American Journal of Medicine, Michael Baum and Edzard Ernst—writing to other physicians—wrote that "Homeopathy is among the worst examples of faith-based medicine... These axioms [of homeopathy] are not only out of line with scientific facts but also directly opposed to them. If homeopathy is correct, much of physics, chemistry, and pharmacology must be incorrect…".

Can someone explain why this is in the Ethics and Safety section? Cjwilky (talk) 00:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

When I read it I see the direct implication that it is unethical to treat a patient with Homeopathy as there is no scientific proof that it works, maybe it could be clearer but it doesn't seem vague to me. --Daffydavid (talk) 04:35, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You are making an assumptive leap there Daffy, its not referring to ethics in any specific way. I understand your point (although wrong, and even disagreed with by Ben Goldacre), but this para is vague. Cjwilky (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Accupuncture and other therapies

SteveBaker reverted my edit in Homeopathy#Regulation_and_prevalence. The original was:

In 2012 in the United Kingdom, Derby University dropped its complementary medicine program, including homeopathy, and the University of Westminster ceased enrolling new alternative medicine students. Salford University had dropped its homeopathy, accupuncture and Chinese medicine programs the previous year.

I removed the references to other therapies as I don't see why they are relevent to the article or the section:

In 2012 in the United Kingdom, Derby University dropped its homeopathy program, and the University of Westminster ceased enrolling new homeopathy students. Salford University had dropped its homeopathy program the previous year.

He said "Westminster isn't a "publicly funded" university - so the original reference is 100% correct and on-topic." I don't follow the relevance of the comment in relation to the changes I made and he reverted, nor its relevance in any way. Please explain :) Cjwilky (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

You justified your removal on grounds that it was contradicted by information from the University of Westminster (which is indeed still offering courses on Chinese traditional medicine). However, the section you edited refers only to the ban on awarding degrees in alternative medicine at publically funded universities. The University of Westminster does not take public funds - it's privately funded. So our statement that all of alternative medicine (including homeopathy) was banned is a true statement. Had what you removed been untrue - I would not have objected to your edit - but since you made a mistake and our information is 100% correct, I think it's worth keeping. Our article makes it clear that homeopathy wasn't singled out for banning - it's a general ban on ALL alternative medicines. That better explains the case against homeopathy - it's not being singled out as particularly unsuitable as degree-material, it's being lumped in with all of the other hokey stuff. I greatly prefer the old version to your change...hence I reverted. SteveBaker (talk) 02:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. It would be more pro homeopathy to leave the section as you have reverted it to, however it is inaccurate and that is my point here.

1) If a university is accredited, it is a university - thats how it works in the UK, maybe not elsewhere. There isn't a differentiation in quality of qualifications. So I don't know why you raise this as an issue. Further, its worth you looking at Private_university#United_Kingdom. You will see that you are wrong in your assumption.

2) You mention a "ban" on awarding degrees in complementary ("alternative") medicine at publicly funded universities - where did you get that from? I see no evidence of this, indeed the evidence is that this is not so - see the UCAS link below. If its from the article you cite, then that is a misinterpretation of a misleading article.

3) From that article you cite: Meanwhile, the University of Westminster, in central London, which used to be the country's leader of alternative medicine degrees, is no longer taking on new students in this area of study for the fall 2012 semester. I have shown this to be false. You can check here too: UCAS search results for acupuncture degrees in 2012 where you will see several other "public" universities also offering courses.

4) You mention only public funded universities and say Uni of Westminster isn't included, but then you include it in the article. Please explain.Cjwilky (talk) 15:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Homeopaths or homeopathy?

I changed

Homeopathy has been criticized for putting patients at risk due to advice against conventional medicine such as vaccinations, anti-malarial drugs, and antibiotics.

to

Homeopaths have been criticized for putting patients at risk due to advice against conventional medicine such as vaccinations, anti-malarial drugs, and antibiotics. with the edit note of "The statement as its stands is akin to saying physics has been critcised for dropping a bomb on Hiroshema, its illogical, and isn't what the references actually say. Please discuss on talk page, with evidence if you wish to revert this"

SkepRap reverted this saying "Reverted to NPOV version". Please explain AND specify where in the references it says homeopathy and not homeopaths.

And Skeprap may wish to reply to other parts of the talk page (reply in the relevant section), namely one of unsubstantiated accusations they made, whilst he/she is at it :)Cjwilky (talk) 11:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The description of a pseudoscientific expensive water-pushing murdering charlatan is exactly the same as the practice. Homeopathy=homeopath. You probably shouldn't use the strawman comparison between homeopathic murders and war. Unless that was your intent, which even though I know there have been plenty of murders as a result of homeopaths and homeopathy, it's probably not in the hundreds of thousands. But it's good that a homeopathic potion pusher like yourself understands the horrifying crimes of homeopathy. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 16:32, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Clearly the choice of an inefficacious before an efficacious treatment for a serious infectious disease or progressive illness is the risk that we should be discussing. While that cited source is not of the best quality (a letter), its author (Ernst) has a long history of publications of systematic reviews on the topic. That he is a homeopath speaking against his own field should add weight. Still, it is quite dated. More recent reports such as PMID 19043817 and PMID 19350429 are primary, but informative in discussing the avoidance of basic vaccinations by different populations. Ernst's title addressed "homeopathy", not "homeopaths" for rather obvious reason. Homeopathy as used by people who are not homeopaths still presents that same risk. If I as a non-homeopath were to take a homeopathic product for a year after being diagnosed with an early stage cancer it would not be as likely to keep me alive so long as prompt use of real medicine would. The primary issue is the choice of practice, not the choice of practitioner. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I just want to emphasize that, while this article should make it crystal clear that this is a total pseudoscience, there is no need to try to vilify homeopaths. We shouldn't add things specifically to serve as a thumb-in-the-eye to practitioners. I'm not talking about a false compromise; I only mean that we shouldn't phrase items in an attempt to paint homeopaths as wicked or con-artists. We just present the facts, and we make sure to do so in as straight-foward and simple a manner as possible to ensure the reader understands the subject. Fighting over whether to say "homeopaths" vs. "homeopathy" really seems to be missing the forest from the trees, here.JoelWhy (talk) 19:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Skep rap - first, you aren't big enough or honest enough to appologise for wrongly accusing me of saying homepathy cures cancer. Second, your bias on this topic is declared by your consistent unnecessarily aggressive language - I suggest you look up NPOV, and read it, and then ask someone to explain it to you, slowly. Third, your understanding of the English language ("homeopath=homeopathy") is fundamentally lacking. And the simile I gave illustrates a point clearly, no need to go off on one about it, off topic about it. Really, calm tha self down lad/lass, have a nice cuppa tea and a biscuit.

LeadSongDog - Ernst is not a homeopath any more than you are.

Anyway, the issue here is about homeopathy v homeopaths, and the evidence is the reference. The title, is a title, it isn't in itself a work or even part of a work, you know that - to suggest otherwise is an extreme and wrong form of cherry picking given the content of the letter, and to call your reasoning obvious, is a little vague too. Ernzt using the homeopathy in the title yet refering solely to homeopaths within the content of the letter is akin to wrapping a chicken in a raptor bag - close but actually not the same thing, and misleading. Maybe Ernzt has an agenda which makes him do such stuff, or maybe there is another reason? Its certainly not to do with accuracy.

That it is a letter and uses some unscientific, statistically insignificant "research" which "shows" 1 out of 23 homeopaths who replied said they felt there was some value in using potentised substances in childhood illnesses - or so is the insinuation as there is no evidence of what is actually asked and what the actually response was. But its there along with some other info/reference, I'm not arguing that, but the point is the content of that letter in no place mentions homeopathy as being the problem, it constantly refers to homeopaths. Indeed at the end, the conclusion, it is said "homeopathic remedies may be safe, but do all homeopaths merit this attribute?" If you disagree with this, show me specifically with quotes, and then lets look at the weight of the focus in that source - homeopathy or homeopaths.

Joel - I'm glad someone else notices the tone of discussion here from several editors, not just the skeprap.

There's no real forest without real trees. Being accurate is important, or do you disagree?

I'm trying to deal with this in small digestible bits. And I agree the main issue here is the interpretation of the scientific proof of homeopathy, and we will get to a better, more accurate, less bias version of that. We also need to look at making the whole article more readable, and not one exclusively for planet skeprap. But there are other things in this article. I've heard this before, effectively "homeopathy is a pile of shit, who cares about your accurate point here, lets see the consensus, yes its 7 skeptics to one homeopath again, therein lies the truth we have on wiki..." ermmmm... ironic or what? Cjwilky (talk) 20:37, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

CJ, accusing someone (SkepRap) of being rude and failing to be polite yourself is not the way to go. You must admit that your views have been given ample space and consideration here. Being pedantic is almost never a good thing. Your point here of Homeopath vs. Homeopathy is a prime example. Also see Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy for a rebuttal to your other point about prevalence. (Might not have been being pedantic here, just unaware.) Regardless, happy editing. --Daffydavid (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Daffy, I guess skeprap never wrongly accused you of doing something illegal? Yes, it pisses me off the way he uses up talk space with off the point abuse.

If homeopath v homeopathy is so meaninglessly pedantic to everyone, then why not have it as the accurate version and not the innaccurate one? I'm sorry that I have to waste so much time on this through someones unsubstantiated revert. I tried to be as clear as possible about the issues, is that wrong? Please feel free to advise on alternative ways to go about dealing with these situations. Though do that on my talk page not here, where I'd like to stick to the point :) Cjwilky (talk) 21:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, Cwilky is correct, it is homeopaths recommending against medicine. That said, the practice of homeopathy with it's belief system must motivate against medicine. Without expanding that simple phrase to a paragraph I suggest accepting Cjwilky's wording although this seems a minor issue and hardly needed the nuclear optionAcleron (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, no further arguments, accuracy wins over misinformation :) That passage now changed to how it was when I corrected it. Cjwilky (talk) 12:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Skeprap seems a law unto itself.... maybe it'll come over here and discuss rather than play the fool? Really, this is getting boring. Cjwilky (talk) 23:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Sourced "misinformation" over orignal "accurate" information. I would have reverted if someone else hadn't done it first. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Its not sourced Arthur - show where. And further, even if there is someone out there thats effectively written "Homeopathy" has two legs, two eyes etc (cf. "homeopath"), doesn't mean its to be included in wiki. NPOV is clear in this case. Cjwilky (talk) 00:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

You're right, at least as to the two sources in the lead. My mistake. I have seen it as "homeopathy puts patients at risk", but the source isn't one of the two in the lead, and doesn't seem to be in the body. I guess I'm on your side, after considering the sources. You are at 3 reverts again, though, so you shouldn't do anything about it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Cjwilky on this. "Homeopaths" makes more sense in the context it is being used, and (more importantly as far as Wikipedia is concerned) is what the cited sources say. Brunton (talk) 08:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh good grief! I can't believe this thread. Homeopathy is that which is believed by homeopaths - homeopaths are those who believe in homeopathy - you can't separate the two. It really doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether it's homeopathy or the beliefs of homeopaths that has been criticized here - it's the exact same thing! If homeopathists believe that conventional medicine should be avoided - then that's what homeopathy says. If homeopathy says that - then that's what homeopathists believe - because (by definition) if they don't believe it then they aren't homeopathists, they're from some other fringe theory.

There isn't some magical thing called "homeopathy" that has a separate existence from the ideas in the minds of the homeopathists! Hence, simply changing the words from "Homeopathy says XYZ" to "Homeopathists say XYZ" is not the issue here.

I presume that the real issue here is that some homeopathists believe that conventional medicine should be avoided and others see it as complementary to their treatments. The latter group don't want all of homeopathy to be labelled as anti-conventional medicine because that approach kills people and results in some serious legal liability. But if that's the case then we also cannot make a blanket statement that implies that this belief is held by homeopaths in general.

So it's back down to our usual problem (which I'm starting to realize is endemic amongst fringe theory articles) of not having a solidly agreed definition of what our subject matter is because all of the believers out there are basically making it up as they go along. Since it's all scientifically proved to be bullshit, we don't have a standard of truth to hold any particular personal definition of the term up against. The leaders of these fringe theory movements make a ton of money selling junk and writing books about the subject - and they make money by continually coming up with new "ideas" - which are cheap because they don't have to be backed by any kind of reality. Since their writings are not backed by secondary and tertiary sources - so we can't consider them to be reliable descriptions of what the fringe theory is - which is just as well because they don't agree with each other and frequently contradict themselves.

This dooms us to never having a comprehensive definition of the term "homeopathy" - and by extension, calling someone a "homeopathist" doesn't have much value in predicting what they might or might not believe in. Hence saying "Some homeopathists believe XYZ" is about as meaningful as saying "Some people believe XYZ" because the definition of who is or is not a homeopathist is as ill-defined as the term itself.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:23, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm pleased someone is working with logic here too as there is a fervant religiousity of "skepticism" here - its just a perspective as many perspectives have been held, or should we say "believed" to be the way and have subsequently been superceded. Not only that, but as with many perspectives, people have a perspective on the perspective as proven by so many comments on this talk page. Anyway, lets examine what SB says.

"Homeopathy is that which is believed by homeopaths - homeopaths are those who believe in homeopathy - you can't separate the two."

Belief is not part of it. It can be, it is in some cases, but thats your POV. The accurate NPOV version is A homeopath is someone who practices homeopathy. Homeopathy is practiced by homeopaths. For example, every time I give a remedy to a patient I follow a process. Thats it. Its a method. I practice homeopathy.

"It really doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether it's homeopathy or the beliefs of homeopaths that has been criticized here - it's the exact same thing!"

Homeopathy is a method. To believe in homeopathy is beyond the method. A homeopath may believe in many other things apart from homeopathy. Discussing the pro's and con's of vaccination for example, pointing out where to find the info about this, not trotting out a pro vaccination line etc is something else. Many people do this, not just homeopaths. The evidence cited, the Ernzt research, shows 1 out of 23 homeopaths discussed views contrary to the mainstream about vaccinations. That 1 may well have put both sides, it doesn't clarify this in the reference. I don't see any evidence for your illogical statement in this case in particular, and more strongly about your vague leap of thought.

"If homeopathists believe that conventional medicine should be avoided - then that's what homeopathy says."

I think I have already covered this, but to make sure you understand, there is no evidence for your statement. Ernzt had some survey (not scientific as he himeself acknowledges) that showed 1 in 23 said as I said above. I will try and make it even clearer for you - a homeopath drives a car that is homeopathy. A driver of a car may love marmite. It doesn't follow that cars love marmite - thats actually what you are saying. It doesn't even follow that drivers of cars love marmite any more or less than drivers of buses - though you aren't even getting your logic to that level.

"If homeopathists believe that conventional medicine should be avoided - then that's what homeopathy says. If homeopathy says that - then that's what homeopathists believe - because (by definition) if they don't believe it then they aren't homeopathists, they're from some other fringe theory."

You say, if "People A" who all share "Belief H" believe "X", thats what "Belief H" is. First, I've covered the belief thing. Second, you make a massive assumption in the last part of your statement that "X" has anything to do with "Belief H", and even if it has some relationship, you assert that its more than intrinsic, that its the same. A leap again, and no explanation, and certainly no evidence. Though you say "by definition". Its even very poor rhetoric.

"There isn't some magical thing called "homeopathy" that has a separate existence from the ideas in the minds of the homeopathists! Hence, simply changing the words from "Homeopathy says XYZ" to "Homeopathists say XYZ" is not the issue here."

Homeopathy is a method. Whats in the mind of a homeopath is "by definition" homeopathy (ie a method) and a whole world of other things that are unrelated to homeopathy, and some that maybe have some relationship to homeopathy, but at the same time are not homeopathy. The issue you state is very clearly the issue. You make that clear by discussing it and showing your misunderstanding of it. Indeed you wish to pass on your misunderstanding to readers or wiki. Is it just misunderstanding or is it POV?

"I presume that the real issue here is that some homeopathists believe that conventional medicine should be avoided and others see it as complementary to their treatments. The latter group don't want all of homeopathy to be labelled as anti-conventional medicine because that approach kills people and results in some serious legal liability. But if that's the case then we also cannot make a blanket statement that implies that this belief is held by homeopaths in general."

You "presume". Effectively you make your POV very very clear here. There is a reference to an unscientific, statistically insignificant, research acknowledged by the researcher himself, that 1 in 23 homeopaths make the statement of putting forward views to vaccination that are contrary to what is trotted out (and I use the words trotted out, because in my experience very few - less than 1 in 23 to be unscientifically accurate - of doctors have ever looked beyond the info that is given to them by health authorities who have a policy to carry out that is based on herd immunity, and certainly not about allowing people to make an informed decision about what they are taking, nor even aiding doctors themselves to make an informed decision). And then you want to make a blanket statement about "homeopathy" and not even "homepaths".

"Since it's all scientifically proved to be bullshit, we don't have a standard of truth to hold any particular personal definition of the term up against."

There is evidence that demonstrates homeopathy works, it even says so in the article. That the meta analysis is what is being used in the article at present brings the weight to show that homeopathy hasn't been shown to work, does not mean the same as "its all scientifically proved to be bullshit" as you put it. A logical issue again.

You then go onto a nihilistic end to your post. As well as sway off topic and give your POV about people making a ton of money selling junk and relating that to homeopathy I take it? Yes, its very clear that there isn't much quality research about homeopathy. Defining it is very possible, maybe I can help? However, I don't accept lack of logic and POV rhetoric, of which there is a great deal here from the followers of the skeptic movement who dominate this article. Chin up, we can do this :)

Cjwilky (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's put it this way. There is no scientific evidence that homeopathy works, nor is there evidence that meets Wikipedia's standards that homeopathy works. There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that homeopaths get results, but there is absolutely no evidence that the results are due to, or even related to, homeopathy. As for whether homeopathy is hazardous to patients; I have absolutely no doubt that it is, but SteveBaker is correct; we don't have a source for the statement, nor can we be sure that it is, because its tenets are unclear.  :::It would be best if you did not edit this, or related, articles. You start with the premise that homeopathy gets results; as there is no evidence of this, it should not be in Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

As I keep saying. We need to step back and look at the big picture. We keep quibbling over definitions (which will not be agreed on). The page is on a fringe topic and we should approach it that way. The lede should be very simple. Then the history of who invented it, and a bio of him. Then a few definitions of terms. The controversy against it. And then done! Cut the page to 3/4 of what it is now.Sgerbic (talk) 16:05, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Arthur, I was going to let it pass, but I'm intrigued and it is on topic. I'm not sure what you mean here, and I refer to both the first (you have no doubt...) and the second part (nor can we be sure that it is... - you mean can't be sure its dangerous?):

As for whether homeopathy is hazardous to patients; I have absolutely no doubt that it is, but SteveBaker is correct; we don't have a source for the statement, nor can we be sure that it is, because its tenets are unclear."

Cjwilky (talk) 18:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no doubt that homeopathy, no matter how "implemented" by homeopaths, would lead (at least some) patients with serious, treatable, conditions to forgo medical treatment. I don't have a specific, sourced, instance, as we I don't really know the tenets of homeopathy, but I cannot imagine any possible interpretation of the tenets which would not cause problems. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:40, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

The article already has specific, sourced, instances. See footnote 162 for a particularly tragic example. Brunton (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow! Thats some major footnote. Sgerbic (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

cleanup tag

A certain user (you know who you are) wants to change all but the first reference to Homeopathy: How it Really Works to quasi-Harvard citations. As far as I'm concerned, either all the footnotes should include the full citation, or none. It's not an acceptable citation format on Wikipedia to have ibid.- or op cit.- like citations. Perhaps other multiple references to the same article — but not the same page — should be combined in like fashion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've changed it so each reference to a different page of Shelton has its own entry in the footnotes, and removed the now redundant References section and tag. Feel free to revert if this isn't appropriate. Brunton (talk) 08:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've altered the citations, making use of {{rp}} to delineate page numbers without repeating references. — Scientizzle 12:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment added to discussion of Shang paper

The alleged comment by the Swiss government about the Shang paper, that an editor is trying to insert into the article, is actually about the Swiss HTA, not the Shang paper. Also, since the comment includes implied criticisms of the authors of the Shang paper, including it without a RS showing that a Swiss government report had made these criticisms of the Shang paper would presumably raise WP:BLP issues. I have undone my own revert as I realised I had already made three reverts only about 38 hours before, but I hope this is a good enough explanation for removing this inaccurate and unsourced information. Brunton (talk) 22:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think accuracy is ever the point here, its all about NPOV and it being sourced is it not? In which case a reversion is justified. However, the previous reversion did remove some info that may have been superfluous, but it also removed an important part of the conclusion making this POV. THIS kind of bias is crucial in this article - there ARE two sides to the story, the evidence is clear on that, the POV isn't.

I suggest this is put back "It then concluded there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions, and that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects." Cjwilky (talk) 04:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

The infamous 'Swiss report' is a minor attempt by homeopaths to publish a misleading view. It wasn't published in a reputable journal and as such it shouldn't be considered as RS in comparison to Shang et al.Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both.

The authors may be considered as authoritative on homeopathy but they have no authority status when examining evidence and it is this aspect that is being considered here. And Cjwilky, there may be two sides to a story, but they are not equal and do not require equal billing. Acleron (talk) 12:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)