User talk:Drmies

Level three warning on disruptive editing

Please stop introducing platypuses into SPI case pages, such as those you created at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wm55. Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia, and contributions of this type are considered humourous. Continuing to add jokes and other amusing content into SPI cases may lead to you being blocked from editing, as members of the evil cabal of administrators have no sense of humour. I mean, come on, do we really need those cute graphics all the time? JamesBWatson (talk) 09:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

That platypus is nude! Shock! Horror! It couldn't be more nude if it tried. We need a filter for image such as that. - Sitush (talk) 09:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

What did I tell you about the evil cabal? [1] JamesBWatson (talk) 13:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't template the fucking regulars, JamesBWatson, or I'll platypus you! And thanks for your action on the SPI and your note at the AfD. I left DoRD a redundant memo message. Drmies (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Template? Template? Where's the template that says "Please stop introducing platypuses into SPI case pages"? If I'd known there was one, I could have saved myself the trouble of hand-crafting that message. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:45, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll be introducing the "Platypus of playability" shortly, unless Kelapstick beats me to it while I get the kids. It should probably come in different levels. Drmies (talk) 20:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	For the awesome Wicked reference on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phillip Nelson, I award Drmies the Barnstar of Good Humor. Seriously, you made this theatre nerd's day ~ Matthewrbowker Talk to me 18:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate that immensely--esp. since, ahem, I am not familiar with that particular work... Drmies (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm Writ Keeper. "No good deed goes unpunished" is a prominent line in the lyrics of a song in Wicked (the song is even called "No Good Deed"), but it's also a regular ol' idiom that predates the play. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hi, I'm Drmies. Thanks Writ Keeper! Drmies (talk) 18:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Any interest...

...in taking a look at this one [2]? Thanks and cheers, 76.248.149.47 (talk) 02:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• NO! Drmies (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

No ale for you. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 03:15, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Mata amritanandamayi - wiki

Hello drimes - can you please list your issues regarding above page. All details are with proper references and Neutral point of view. No promotional here. If you have any issue, I am ready to clarify in details. Vivekash — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivekash (talk • contribs) 04:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think I explained them. Those details, if they are of encyclopedic relevance in the first place, are not neutral and the sources are not reliable--[3], [4], [5], [6], [7], and I could go on, are not reliable and obviously promotional: they promote the centers that use those techniques, making claims about their efficacy. Sorry, but this kind of content is not acceptable. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It is not promotional. All references are given to show that it is taught all over the world. when you write some thing about a biography of an Individual - you should tell positive things also. otherwise wiki will be become wrong tool to attack one individual with a motive. If you see the biography - you just have an attack over mata amritanandamayi. If you really interested in uphold the ethics of wiki - please revert back. all details are given with fantastic and very clear references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivekash (talk • contribs) 04:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Anyone can see that this is not correct. The links cited above and other support comments (in sub-par English) such as "Large number of people was benefited by the above technique"; "A huge pool of trainers is created and they teach the IAM all over the world based on request"; "More details available in the following website.(www.iam-meditation.org)". I'm going to report you for using Wikipedia as a promotional tool. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:51, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello Drimes, I agree with you that it can be improved. many details are removed which looks like promotional. but be positive. you can not remove every thing at one stretch which also more like a vandalism or hate against an Individual. we are not promoters but we are want to contribute to wiki in nice way with proper details. If you have any apprehension, let we discuss so that we can keep biography of a person to the good extent reliable. As of now, it looks like a blog or editorial page attacking some body. thanks in advance. Vivekash--121.243.61.82 (talk) 05:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• No, I don't accept that. You called me a vandal for removing promotional information, now you're editing without logging in. Find me one edit where I am hating on an individual. I think I have some experience here that helps me in determining what is and what isn't acceptable. Drmies (talk) 05:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
• I see that another admin agrees with me. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 05:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Be a meanie at Minhas?

Take a look at the history and talk page of Minhas. Unbelievable, but I rather think that I could be done for edit warring after my latest revert. OTOH, consensus has to be based on policy and so the numerous reverts against me carry no weight. Should I send it to RFPP or will I be shooting myself in the foot? There are, after all, some trigger-happy folks around. - Sitush (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually if they are around then they'll be doing the shooting and I won't need to hit my own foot. But you get what I meant. I hope. - Sitush (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a look when I can. Take my advice: withdraw. Stay on the right side of the bright line, always. Drmies (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I am on the right side of 3RR, no problem there. I suspect some socks but it would be easier just to semi. - Sitush (talk) 23:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Are you sure a stub is all that can be salvaged? You know there's some folks who say that having unverified content is fine (I'm not one of them). Anyways, you're not breaking the rules yet and you've started a discussion on the talk page. I think you'd be on safe ground if you can revert, next time, to something more than a stub. Who needs sleep? (Yes, semi-protection is easy and you can ask for it--I won't do it right now, but that's also because of perception. Post the request and see what happens.) Drmies (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

No, I am not sure that a stub is all that can be done. I am sure that it is all that can be salvaged. I appreciate your attempt, which I t-i-c ridicule below, but this lot are quite difficult to track down. I find it very odd and will continue to search because, in truth, there has to be something out there. Oh, for my JSTOR access (still pending) etc. Or a decent academic library at the end of my street. - Sitush (talk) 00:58, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of information on "Emil Kazaz" article.

Is it possible to put back the information that was on the Emil Kazaz article. I see that there are problems regarding its in-line citations. I have reviewed it, and the article is not poorly written, non-neutral in any way. It merely discusses the achievements about the artist. I see there are in-line citations that are not coded to Wikipedia correctly. Could you possibly fix that problem? Also, the inline citations are referenced in the External link tab. That links need to be in the reference list column. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This article is of an important Armenian public figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.213.128.251 (talk • contribs)

• No, and no, since you're the editor who got blocked on that article in the first place. Drmies (talk) 00:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

October 2012

Hello, I'm Sitush I am, honestly). I noticed that you made a change to an article, Minhas, but you didn't provide a reliable source. I’ve removed it for now, but if you’d like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Are you a regular? Can I template you? Hopefully my edit summary explains. No offence intended - the templating is jokey, although the point is serious. Thanks for trying. Sitush (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Shucks, none of us know it all. Least of all me! - Sitush (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, regarding Gyan, I'd forgotten this. I must remember to use it. - Sitush (talk) 01:01, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Damn you Sitush. Drmies (talk) 01:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• I can live with that. Being "the bastard offspring of your mother fucked by a dog" (or something similar) is the more usual and bizarre type of insult found aimed at me at articles such as this. Or just a simple death threat by email etc. The community is notable and one day, hopefully, we'll prove it. I am convinced that transliteration and non-English sources are the big issues here. I could probably use the works of the Anthropological Survey of India but, alas, they are pretty much a 40-odd volume regurgitation of the British Rah sources, such as H. A. Rose, but with poor attribution. - Sitush (talk) 01:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'm no zoologist, but I'm pretty sure that's biologically impossible. Though they say we're very similar to mice. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 22:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Grand Style

Hello. Thanks for the help. I think I have made all the necessary changes to my article Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Grand Style. Scorpiorok (talk) 19:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Wondering if a 'See also' section would include Grand manner. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 20:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I've moved it to main space. Scorpiorok, don't be surprised if this article undergoes serious revision. 76, tit for tat: I put up your Rotting Flesh, maybe you can copyedit this article a bit? Hint hint? Drmies (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

As it turns out, Grand style redirects to Grand manner, and the caps in Grand Style are in correct--so I'll move it to Grand style (rhetoric), which strikes me as appropriate. IP, do you have a hatnote handy for the Grand manner article? Drmies (talk) 20:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

(back from dinner, now otherwise occupied) Will take a look. If I log in and use my registered account, everyone will recognize my true identity, and the condemnation will be horrifying. As it is I can't go out in public for fear of hurled comestibles. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 22:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Aw shucks. Thanks for helping out, Man Formerly Known as "The Hope". Drmies (talk) 17:15, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hint, hint

Can't believe this once passed AFD process [8], but in 2007 things were a bit looser. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 20:25, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Or you could just log in. ;) Drmies (talk) 20:31, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Help on a talk page about iTunes

This is at Talk:Manila_Luzon#iTunes. Same person that asked if I was gay and wanted Facebook, twitter, myspace links in external links.

From the article it states, "...is available for purchase via iTunes and many commercial music sites" and then gives the links to the singles on iTunes." He is not understanding the is promotional and thinks this is referencing something. Bgwhite (talk) 21:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think you're gay. You hate your wife too much to be gay. Drmies (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
• Man that article is not good. Drmies (talk) 22:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hey, I don't hate my wife, I actually love her. But, don't tell her that as I don't want her to know.
• In fairness to XLR8TION, Luzon's partner died recently and the article was pounced upon by all sorts of users. XLR8TION has cleaned it up alot from where it was.
• "for all we know it's john sununu in drag" Thank you for that mental image I will never forget. Bgwhite (talk) 22:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Víctor Vázquez

Hi there my dear (virtual) friend, "AL" "speaking" (hell we all know it's VASCO!),

found a ref in Dutch for this guy's transfer to Club Brugge, could you be a sport and translate the title please? Man, i really have to take up Dutch lessons, no excuse being unemployed and all :)

Have the greatest of weekends (all the same to me, Monday through Sunday), warm regards - --AL (talk) 23:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• Sure thing. Hey, if you start going to church again at least Sunday will be different. Do we have a job for you in the motherland? I know someone who works in the Amsterdam Arena--send me your resume and we'll see... And if you're a good defender, Ajax can probably use your help. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Same problem, now in Sander Boschker, in the article's intro. I mean i could have a go and try and translate it myself, but it would definitely be "googlish"...In a related note, reading Boschker's NL.WIKI, it looks like he prolonged his contract a further year, but somebody wrote "retired" in his English piece so i was mislead. Which is which m'friend?

And what is it that Dutch goalkeepers eat to have this longevity?! Then again, maybe it's just those Amsterdam winds (Boschker, van der Sar, Jan Jongbloed - unless i'm much mistaken it means "young blood" does it not? - did not play for Ajax but he did play for a club in the city, "resisted" until the age of 46!)... Cheers --AL (talk) 14:49, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, Eddy Treytel was old too, bald before his time I guess. I do believe having seen footage of him bringing down that seagull but I can't find it on YouTube. He does have a delicious Rotterdam accent. Drmies (talk) 15:02, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• OK, Boschker is not retired: I just straightened that out. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:07, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thank YOU for your friendship and attention. That working invitation you made yesterday? Too bad i'm just a sad human being, not willing to take a chance anymore, i'll regret it when i'm 80... --AL (talk) 15:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Supercouple page

You posted somewhere a message referencing a few boards I could take this issue to. I can't find that message. Please direct me to the appropriate discussion board. I want this resolved ASAP, as you know it's a very ludicrous statement that has to go. Sancap (talk) 01:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• No, I don't know that. On the original ANI thread, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive770#Help_requested_on_Supercouple_page, I pointed out that this was (at that time) a matter for WP:ANEW, but you kind of pre-empted that by continuing the edit war. I did point out the talk page, and you promoted your view there. It's a pity no one responded; the IP editor may be operating under a different IP address now but I'll drop them a line. At this point, it's probably a matter for Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. But I suggest you try a lighter approach than you've tried so far, since you haven't managed to convince other editors yet. Good luck. Drmies (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've commented here [9]. It's not a ludicrous statement per se; it seems the relevant question is whether it's received enough use to be credible. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 14:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks: I didn't know there was already a discussion at that noticeboard. Drmies (talk) 14:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I here and here. 187.1.160.79 (talk) 03:47, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I started a discussion on the appropriate noticeboard yeserday. In less than 24 hours, two IP editors have replied, stated their opinion and then closed the discussion before I could even respond! And isn't it the admins who are supposed to be discussing this with me on that kind of board, not the same IP editor I've been arguing with? I need to take this issue somewhere where it will get the proper treatment. Sancap (talk) 00:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Ralph Patt

Thanks for your suggestions. What do you think about the Death Records and Williams YAHOO death notice and WP:RS?

Williams is a secondary source for the Vanilla Book and the death date. The Death Records (using SS database) is the only source for place of birth and is the primary source for death date. I don't think that anybody is likely to challenge those facts, or the short description of The Vanilla Book.

Of course, the birth and death dates and the Vanilla Book sentences could be removed, and the bio updated as though he were still alive, but this seems unreasonable in this case. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hey Kiefer. I don't know--I think it would look silly without those dates. The Yahoo message should be used sparingly, but you've used only neutral information as far as I could tell after a quick glance, and I personally wouldn't challenge it, though it's not the best of course. For Death Records (which is also a bit unlikely to be challenged, but who knows) it may be best to post a note on the RS board. If you're right, that this uses SS information, it should be no problem.

  I've added a few things--not in Harvard format, and with my apologies. Maybe you can find a place for this as well (in an octet with Richard Maltby, Sr.). Good luck! Drmies (talk) 14:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Those were very nice additions, especially the Columbia River book, which I really should have found earlier. I don't remember the Billboard finding, but it doesn't look to be so important. He seems to have authored a report on Las Vegas groundwater that had 30 citations, on JSTOR or Google Scholar, but I've not had the energy to add it. It doesn't look like it adds much to the bio.

Thanks also for catching The Music News book, which establishes notability for the Patt--Wayne booklet. I asked for a finding about the reliability of The Music News last year, when I wrote about two Ovation Guitar clones, because I've only read extended news-releases (apparently) in it. (Is it really a journalistic journal?) Nobody answered..., at least not before I cut 95% of my pages monitored after a block..... Whether by a journalist or the publisher, the statement that it was a best seller is informative and credible. I'll try to write RSN about the Yahoo group this weekend. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:07, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Glad to help, Kiefer. Drmies (talk) 17:12, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Request for a second opinion

Hi Drmies. Could you possibly take a quick look at User talk:Danielj27052705 and The James Young High School which came up on my watchlist the other day. The user was trying to add a full staff list and list of facilities to this article, which was a reasonable newbie mistake to make, but I blocked them when after admitting they were affiliated with the school, they twice removed a mildly negative but well-sourced sentence from the article. They seem reluctant to read up on our policies and maybe another voice will help them to understand, if you have the time. You may also comment on whether you think I am too involved to have made the block if you like. Thanks for any assistance you are able to provide. --John (talk) 17:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• OK, I looked at the article, their edits, the talk page, and other associated pages (closing that AfD in the process per WP:SNOW). You have acted perfectly appropriate, in my opinion. Should they place an unblock request I shall refrain. I'll copy some of these comments on the talk page. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt attention. --John (talk) 18:07, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Always a pleasure, John. And may I point out that you're actually preventing my retirement? But you won't stop me from having lunch. Drmies (talk) 18:09, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I can see why after making such a remarkable edit, you would find my request rather banal to complete. All the more grateful for your intervention, m'lud. --John (talk) 18:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Friz

Drmies, you look smashing today! Would you (and/or your loyal stalkers) do me a favor and look at Friz Freleng, as well as my comments on User talk:49.145.53.55? I've reverted some of the IP's edits to the article a few times and don't want to break any rules by doing it any more. Thanks! MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 20:45, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

John (talk · contribs) took care of it. Thanks, John! MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 22:37, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mandarax; just passing through, but a quick look at the pages edited by the 49 IP shows a lot of unsourced changes in this vein, and a history of such edits made by a series of 49.145 accounts. This could be a wide range of sneaky vandalism, or at the least annoyingly unsourced edits. Mondo annoying, and lord knows I don't want to draft a report, but maybe a few others would like to follow the trail and weigh in. Me, I'm gonna try to watch the AL wildcard game, as if I care. 76.248.149.47 (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

One for the watchlist

This user has chosen a name that is going to get a lot of watchers among (mostly young and male) WP contributors. Unlike, say SpottyWong ;) Thanks for the pointer re: ScottyWong's admin assessor & related discussions. I can't see it ever taking off but then SW wasn't suggesting that it should. According to the tool, I make too few edits to non-article/non-article talk space. Am I bovvered? - Sitush (talk) 20:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hm, probably it's some 300-pound computer programming dude. I made too few edit summaries and lost almost 100 points. Also, I need to do more blah blah blah. I'm drinking a delicious Belgian red ale--from Ichtegem. It better be good for the price. Drmies (talk) 04:25, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Block question (sort of)

I indeffed User:Efrange - see the discussion at WP:ANI. A non-admin replaced the material on Efrange's user page with {{indefblock}}. The template documentation says that this is typically added by the blocking admin, although anyone can add it. My typically Bbb-nit-picky question is what guidance is for when you should or shouldn't use this template, or parroting the language of the template doc, when is it "needed"?--Bbb23 (talk) 22:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Mmm, I don't know. I always wonder what it is that makes other editors place such tags; it always seems like a kind of final stab. I use this sparingly and probably only to replace offensive or otherwise unsuitable content. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
• Here's one: User:StillStanding-247--a kind of disappearing. Drmies (talk) 22:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Heh, that, too, was added by a non-admin, but how come that non-admin gave credit to the blocking admin? "My" non-admin didn't (sniff).--Bbb23 (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Cute (having trouble stopping laughing).--Bbb23 (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, I just placed one myself. Maybe some would consider it a badge of honor, like a body count, but I derive little pleasure from it. Drmies (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• Ooh, we could add it to the service badges (see this surreal discussion).--Bbb23 (talk) 23:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Warning

Hello, I'm Marco Guzman, Jr. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Talk:Big_Bird that didn't seem very civil. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it’s one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. You wrote: "Bullshit. It's not news. It's nothing--it's only an opportunity for social media overusers to indulge. We're writing an encyclopedia here, not a list of trivialities. Even if it was trending it means nothing--it's not trending now, and it won't be tomorrow. You got a dozen edits here; Macaddct1984 and I have a couple more and I think we might have a better idea of what it is that we do." Marco Guzman, Jr  Talk  00:29, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• And? Drmies (talk) 00:36, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Dear Drmies: I note that you have received several warnings lately, and have recieved criticism on AN for being too jocular, so this is a pre-emptive intervention, just in case you are turning to the Dark Side of Wikipedia.

  Please don't do that. The Good Side (Light Side? Positive Side? Democratic Side? [oops!]) needs you! You are loved and appreciated, please return to the bosom of your Wikipedian family. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:05, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• I guess I should have said "bird shit"? No, I've not gone over: I'm still the same abusive admin I was before. Bwuhaha and all that. Good to see you again BMK; are you staying out of trouble with dams and other stuff? Drmies (talk) 01:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yeah, too busy in RL lately to spend much time editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Father Mulcahy: "Jocularity, jocularity".--Bbb23 (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Question for you and your TPS crew: Who was it that recommended that English-language writers favor Anglo-Saxon words whenever possible over words of Latin and Greek origin? Was it in one of the style guides? Strunk & White? (The question came up at work today.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know--I don't have S&W laying around here, but I doubt that they'd make suggestions like that. Still, they like economy, terseness. It's one of the things that's perennially floating around about the Gettysburg Address--this is a fantastic book, by the way. Maybe Malleus knows, but I think he's on vacation. Drmies (talk) 04:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:SPI/Runtshit

I think you forgot to put the sock. XD Elockid ^(Talk) 01:15, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Yes I did. Baka. But never mind--apparently I was an idiot for starting it in the first place. Thanks Elockid. Drmies (talk) 04:15, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Why would anyone try to improve Wikipedia?

"I have no opinion on the dab page per se" You won't say anything because I am right that the Territory topic should have a real article.

Why would anyone try to improve Wikipedia if an obivous improvement will just result in an edit war, and then the administrators won't protect the improvement? If I put a proposal on the Talk page, it will be ignored, and if I try to make the change again weeks later, it will just be reverted again. Suggestions on the Talk page are almost always completely ignored and lead to no action being taken on a page. So there is no way to improve Wikipedia. It is stuck the way it is now forever. 24.125.39.254 (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• You're falsely claiming vandalism, trying to get your opponent blocked. How is that improvement? You haven't even tried conversation. Drmies (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2012 (UTC)