Talk:Germans

Choices for the infobox

Those are some weird choices in the infobox. Eduard Lasker, Emma Ihrer, Christine Teusch, Walter Ulbricht, Christa Wolf and Nena? Not to say those aren't somehow important but there would be much more notable people to pick for this. Kant, Siemens, Gutenberg, Planck, Röntgen, Mozart, Adenauer, Marx just to name a few that would fit a lot better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.153.64 (talk) 15:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

restore original images - clearly no consensus for change - see talk archive. --IIIraute (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

There were barely any women in that montage, and the montage is not easily editable should such certain images within that montage be deleted. German identity has become more and more ambiguous over the years, especially with post-WWII Austrians not identifying as ethnic Germans. Did Marx identify as a German? He became a British citizen, did he assimilate into British culture? Sigh, just wait until the anti-Semitic and anti-German chauvinist bigots arrive here to discuss this, then we will have to hear all the barely-restrained murderous-mindset rages by such chauvinist bigots about Germans and Jews all over again.--R-41 (talk) 18:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought we had consensus to include assimilated Jews? I don't think anyone would really argue that Marx was British? He is known as a German philosopher, economist, sociologist, etc.. Same goes for Einstein - he received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German laureate. Both were born, raised and educated in Germany - both are of converted, assimilated (German)-Jewish background - and both of them did write all their major works in German. So either we do include assimilated Jews - or we don't. Mozart did describe himself as being German - was born in Salzburg, which until after his death did not become part of Austria. The city was founded by the Bavarians and had always been part of Bavaria. His father was from Augsburg, Bavaria - his mother also from Salzburg. Please have a look at a map - some parts of the city of Salzburg are basically still within the modern boundaries of Germany. We are not talking about Vienna. Maybe we could add Merkel, Steffi Graf or Hildegard von Bingen to have more women? --IIIraute (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

If they are significant historical examples of German women, then that is acceptable. Due to the constant mentioning and accusations of POV for his exclusion, I think Hitler will need to be added to the infobox. Hitler is a very well-known ethnic German, exclusion based on arguments of political correctness will only encourage the matter to come up again and again - I say put the picture in, and let the issue die down. Inclusion of controversial historically significant people has been done on other infoboxes. The Georgians infobox for instance includes Stalin in it.--R-41 (talk) 03:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Although I can't see the need to alter the picture gallery, nor can I find any recent edit requests to add Hitler (a serious non-IP request), I have no problem with adding him to the gallery. If you feel one has to add Hitler, do it - but please do not remove the current file! You could exchange Brandt for Hitler, or otherwise add another five pictures below the existing file, for example: Angela Merkel, Hermann Hesse, Hildegard von Bingen, Adolf Hitler, Steffi Graf.--IIIraute (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Deep ancestry and genetics

should interesting information like this not be in the article?

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This page couldn't be anymore bias & Anglocentric. I like how under ethnicity there is absolutely no mention of Angles or Saxons (they DID NOT all leave Germany). No mention of Vikings either despite Germany sharing a border with a Scandinavian country. Despite Germany having more Haplogroup I1 than England does. Despite the North of Germany looking more Germanic on average than ALL of England. Yet on England's page, whats the first thing they mention? Vikings. When the reality is the majority of Brits are Celts, and don't look Germanic at all.

The page goes even further to try an insinuate that Germans are more mixed than they are. Even going as far as to name Jews....Seriously? Both France & England have had higher populations of Jews than Germany. Infact France has more immigrants in their country than the whole of Europe (half their football team is black), and if you go to Paris, there is nothing but people from the 3rd world. No mention of this on France's page? yet they mention "Gauls" as if the french are anything similar to Gauls today.

Jews should not have even been listed anywhere on a topic about German ethnicity, they have remained a small number, and they generally have entirely different Haplogroups, and genetic markers than ethnic Germans and Europeans for the matter. They have nothing to do with modern German genetic make up. If you want to link Jews to someone in Europe, try Sicilians, thats who they cluster with, not Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C4EA:CA0:FDE4:FA3E:2BE4:137F (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Why exactly do you take so much offense to the idea that most Jews are of German ancestry and that likewise there are likely Germans who had ancestors in the Jewish faith? I find it strange you seem to mention things like purity, "Germanicness" (protip- finland is blonder and more blue eyed than any "Germanic" country except Sweden)and Jews.96.231.17.247 (talk) 15:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I also find very weird the comments by the former user. Just for the record, since he mentions it, according to the Genetic Map above, England does have a higher Haplogroup I ratio than Germany. Besides, Germany, from a Haplogroup or "genetic lines" point of view, is quite diverse, as the Haplogroup map above shows. The Myth of Germanic "purity" is, as we know, linked to National Socialist propaganda, and modern genetic science kicks it in the ass. Actually, if we want to speak about "purity" from the point of view of genetic lines or "genetic families", we have to look at Eskimos, Amerindians or some African groups as examples, but certainly not at Europeans, let alone at Germans. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 04:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Karl Marx and Albert Einstein are not Germans

They are Jews. They were Germans by nationality, but due to the fact the article is about Germans as an ethnic group, please take out those two people from the info box. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, which means ethnicity formed around a religion, and Marx and Einstein were of Jewish ethnicity.

I understand you Germans have some guilt feelings for the holocaust and you try to show how you are good in integrating Jews now (70 years too late), but please remember the article is about an ethnic group and Marx and Einstein were not of German ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree in principle that it seems presumptuous for us to include these people in a category that neither they themselves nor their environment considered or wished them to be part of -- if that is indeed the case. Iblardi (talk) 14:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Marx very clearly and unequivocally considered himself a German and not a Jew. In fact his views on Jews would today be considered antisemitic.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

But treating Marx as an ethnic German is not without its problems either. The nature and degree of his "Jewishness" seems to be an issue with which his biographers have been wrestling. For instance, J. Carlebach, in Karl Marx and the Radical Critique of Judaism, 1978, pp. 320-323) concludes that Marx, although he "Marx was not a Jew in any religious, national or cultural sense" and "was never what someone once called ‘functionally Jewish’, ... was Jewish in two respects. First, by descent, and second, by common consent. (...) The little evidence we possess would suggest that, while Marx would have agreed with a description of himself as a Jew by descent, he would have resented the second, though it was and remains something he could not escape" (my italics). The tyranny of external ascription? Iblardi (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Has been discussed a thousand times. RFC/editor consensus has clearly been in favour to include German Jews from assimilated background/assimilated Jews - see talk archive. --IIIraute (talk) 17:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

But I suppose that the discussion is not so much about whether persons of Jewish descent can or cannot be ethnic Germans, but rather whether particular Jewish individuals who self-identified as Jews should here be included as ethnic Germans even if they would have rejected the idea themselves. What about that source quoted by Table Lamp 47 in October 2011, Fölsing's biography of Einstein, which was supposed to have "nailed the issue" regarding Einstein's self-ascribed ethnicity? According to that editor, Einstein was "a strongly motivated Zionist (Fölsing 1997, 494–505)," who "opposed assimilation as a contemptible form of “mimicry” (p. 490)". What happened there -- was the source misquoted? Iblardi (talk) 18:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, he still was an (at least) eighth generation German citizen of converted, assimilated non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate. --IIIraute (talk) 01:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It matters insofar as ethnicity is now commonly defined in terms of both external ascription and self-identification, as the article Ethnic group makes clear. The latter aspect should not be ignored. Iblardi (talk) 12:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Just because Einstein did support the creation of a Jewish state (although once created, he didn't move there himself), it does not mean that he wasn't German. In his youth, Einstein did not identify strongly with Jewish culture and religion.[1] And even if he did, it's a matter of religion and not of ethnicity. Einstein did choose to spend most of his life in German speaking countries, and chose to return to Germany and to become a German national again in 1914. He chose to become a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, and in 1916, Einstein voluntarily accepted being appointed president of the German Physical Society. He did choose to spend most of his adult life in Germany and for his whole life, even when living in the USA, he did continue to use the German language. He was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, (and did choose to continue to use both of them for his whole life) born, raised and educated in Germany, attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate, the latter, again by choice! So, somehow he must have identified with the German culture, language, etc. --IIIraute (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Still, Einstein's case is problematic. According to Z. Rosenkranz, Einstein before Israel: Zionist icon or iconoclast? (Princeton 2011), Einstein’s identification with the Jews was primarily "ethnic and cultural, not religious, in nature". Einstein referred to his "coreligionists"(!) "time and again" as "'ethnic comrades' (Stammesgenossen), thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews. For him", according to Rosenkranz, "the central characteristics of the Jews as a nation were ethnic lineage, 'a sense of being different,' and 'predominantly' non-religious traditions".

Rosenkranz writes that Einstein saw the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry" (my italics -- this addresses the issue of assimilation mentioned above).

"In contrast, he was profoundly impressed by what he perceived as the ethnic authenticity and cultural achievements of the Ostjuden (...)" (p. 255).

"His relationship to his own German identity was also fraught with ambivalence"; in the end, however, "though never explicitly acknowledged by Einstein, he felt a great deal of allegiance to German culture, and even more to the German scholarly ethic" (p. 255-56). (Note, however, that the author does not speak of an ethnic bond.) Yet, immediately after the war, Einstein "was thoroughly disgusted with the 'horrid Europeans' in general. This anti-European sentiment also resulted in Einstein defining himself (and the Jews) as non-European", and "he employed his Jewish ethnocentrism, ingrained in him from a very early age, to conclude that Zionism was qualitatively different from other forms of nationalism and therefore worthy of his support" (p. 256-57).

All of this seems to suggest that Einstein cherished his Jewish ethnic identity and rejected the idea of him being a German in an ethnic sense, despite his affiliation with German culture. Iblardi (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what this seems to suggest - I do know that this is all supposition. However, the points I have made are facts. Einstein was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen, who was born, raised and educated in Germany, and did choose to return to spend most of his adult life there. That's surely enough to make him an ethnic German.--IIIraute (talk) 19:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The facts you made have nothing to do with the discussion. Einstein was of Jewish ethnicity, it's a fact. As assimilated as he was for 8 generations his ancestors made sure to mary only Jews, another fact. What you talk about is nationality. Nothing can make him an ethnic German because you can't change your genes, that's another fact. In fact, during the holocaust Germany was killing Jews an as ethnic group, a conversion would not help. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you repeat a lie many times it will not make it true. Jews are an ethnicity and a religion. Einstein was 100% Jewish by ethnicity. He was not Jewish by religion, it's known, but he always identified as a Jew. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Editing decisions that are solely based on an editor's own reasoning from primary data without regard for the opinions expressed by secondary sources would fall under WP:SYNTH, I think. If a mainstream scholarly source has something relevant to say about the specific issue under discussion, it should not be summarily dismissed. Iblardi (talk) 20:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

What I found is this: According to John Stachel (“Einstein's Jewish identity,” in: Einstein from ‘B’ to ‘Z’ (Boston, 2002), p. 57-75), Einstein’s parents were “even more assimilated to German culture, particularly in its love for the German literary classics, than had been previous generations of south German Jews.” Still, “they unhesitatingly identified themselves as Jews and continued certain Jewish customs” although they “did not practice the Jewish religion or observe kosher dietary laws” (Stachel, 2002, p. 58). Einstein’s family, “similar to other rural Jews”, showed a “high degree of interdenominational tolerance: among village Jews it was common for pupils to attend christian public schools and receive private Jewish tutoring at home.” (Rosenkranz, op. cit., 2011, p. 13). In fact, there had been no Jewish schools in Munich since 1872. Thus it happened that Einstein received Catholic instruction alongside his “private Jewish instruction” (Stachel, 2002, p. 59). Gender roles at home appear to have been “well-defined and traditional in nature, similar to those in the rural Jewish family” (Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 13). Rosenkranz notes that “like other members of the German Jewish minority, the Einsteins clearly maintained a ‘Jewish familial 'inside'’ and a ‘German ‘outside’’—a condition defined by one German historian [i.e. Till van Rahden] as the “situative ethnicity” of the German Jews”.

Later, when he resided in Switzerland, there still was, as Einstein wrote in 1921, “nothing that called forth any Jewish sentiments” in him, but “all that changed” in 1914, when he moved to Berlin. There, he writes, “I discovered for the first time that I was a Jew, and I owe this discovery more to Gentiles than to Jews” (Stachel, 2002, p. 62). Einstein’s “Jewish identity” (in terms of self-consciousness) “was essentially established” by 1923 (Stachel, 2002, 57). From that time onward, apparently, he would refer to the Jews as his Stammesgenossen, “thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews” and would charactierize the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry" (Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 255; also cited above).

When all of the above is taken into consideration, the claim that Einstein should be considered an ethnic German seems at least debatable. Iblardi (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Look, I think it is great that Einstein suddenly discovered "that he was a Jew" in his late thirties, but this article is about Germans as an ethnic group, and not Einstein's religio-moral identity crises. And guess what: you can be German and Jewish! --IIIraute (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be consistently missing the point. Ethnicity, not religion, is exactly what the sources are talking about, as you should have seen if you had read my postings. I shouldn’t have to repeat this, but once again, for clarity’s sake:

According to the above sources, Einstein’s parents “unhesitatingly identified themselves as Jews and continued certain Jewish customs” although they “did not practice the Jewish religion”; "the central characteristics of the Jews as a nation were ethnic lineage, 'a sense of being different,' and 'predominantly' non-religious traditions"; Einstein referred to the Jews "time and again" as "ethnic comrades (Stammesgenossen), thereby illustrating the primacy for him of the ethnic bond with his fellow Jews”; Einstein saw the "assimilationist strivings of the urban, bourgeois majority of German Jewry" as "undignified mimicry"; “like other members of the German Jewish minority, the Einsteins clearly maintained a ‘Jewish familial 'inside'’ and a ‘German ‘outside’’—a condition defined by one German historian [i.e. Till van Rahden] as the “situative ethnicity” of the German Jews”. Now, this last quotation, about "situative" or "situational" ethnicity, which is a somewhat ambiguous term, brings up an interesting point: would it be possible for Einstein to be considered both an ethnic Jew and an ethnic German? Perhaps so, but this should be investigated rather than taken for granted, as you now seem to do. Iblardi (talk) 06:29, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

However, this seems highly doubtful. Rosenkranz (2011) also quotes from a letter to the Centralverein Deutscher Staatsbürger Jüdischen Glaubens, written in April 1920, in which Einstein “reconfirms his Jewish identity in a positive manner and once more rejects his German identity: I am neither a German citizen nor is there anything in me that can be described as “Jewish faith.” But I am a Jew, and I am glad that I belong to the Jewish people, even though in no way do I consider them to be the chosen ones. Let us leave anti-Semitism to the goy and let us keep the love of our brethren”” (p. 75). It is obvious that the word goy includes the Germans and that Einstein is not thinking of himself in terms of multiple ethnical identities here. Iblardi (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The reason why this talking about “tribal brotherhood” may be more important than the actual degree to which Einstein or his family had been assimilated into German society is that, since the work of Fredrik Barth, self-ascription has come to be seen as one of the more crucial factors in defining ethnic identities. This can be shown by a few quotes taken from contemporary writers on ethnicity:

> L.A. Wilkie, Creating Freedom: Material Culture and African-American Identity at Oakley Plantation, Louisiana, 1845-1950 (2000), p. 7: “Frederick Barth’s (1969) Ethnic Groups and Boundaries quickly became the leading text within the field due to Barth’s reconceptualization of ethnic groups as forms of social organizations that maintained boundaries, rather than content, as the primary means of retaining ethnicity and that define themselves through self-ascription, not just through labeling by outsiders... . (...) Barth’s tenets continue to shape the way that many anthropologists define ethnicity”.

> K. Frøystad, Blended boundaries : caste, class and shifting faces of 'Hinduness' in a North Indian city (2005), p. 19: “For Barth, as for Eriksen and others who stand on his shoulders, ethnicity primarily pertains to ascription and self-ascription of group membership and cultural characteristics.”

> J.J. E. Gracia, Surviving Race, Ethnicity, and Nationality: A Challenge for the Twenty-First Century (2005), p. 43: “...sociologists frequently make self-naming, self-definition, and self-awareness necessary conditions of ethnicity (cf. Isaacs 1975, 34-35; Parsons 1975, 56; Horowitz 1975, 113; Hayes-Bautista 1983, 275-76; Aboud 1987, 32; for philosophers, see Bernstein 2001; Outlaw 1996, 7).”

> C. Dowd, The construction of Irish identity in American literature (2011), p. 10: “Barth’s work shows his struggle against essentialist thinking, and in his 1998 preface to the new edition of his book, he makes use of the vocabulary popularized by modern critics to clarify his point, noting that ethnicity is a matter of “social organization” and “self-ascription” rather than “empirical cultural difference”.”

Many other examples could be cited. Now, if this criterion of self-ascription also applies to individuals -which I do not know for sure- the question that should next be asked is whether Einstein's own statements regarding his Jewishness and his "non-Germanness", as quoted above, are in themselves enough to exclude him from the German ethnic group. Iblardi (talk) 18:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute, you keep on referring to Jews as a religion which just highlights how little you know on the topic. Jews are an ethnic group and a religios group, the identities can exist separately. It's obvious Einstein and Marx were of Jewish ethnicity and they had no one in their family of German ethnicity. Maybe it's in your genes to want to wipe the Jewish race, I don't know, but the fact is, Jewish is an ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 06:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"IIIraute...maybe it's in your genes to want to wipe the Jewish race, I don't know..." thanks for revealing your true colours - please say no more! -- enough has been said!! ...don't take yourself so important, you f***ing racist!!! --IIIraute (talk) 14:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It's funny to hear accusations of being racist from a guy who tries to deny the existance of a whole ethnicity. I'm totally not racist and support the right of every ethnicity or race to exist and express itself without being harmed, especially when talking about a minority. I didn't say it's in the genes of all Germas to wipe the Jewish race, I spoke just about you, that's why my comment is not racist. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

At second thought, I do appologise for that comment I made. It is nasty and I shouldn't have said it. But the fact is, for me as a Jew it does look suspicious to see a person denying the obvious fact that Jews are not just a religion but an ethnicity. Even the Israeli law of return is built on the principle that a person can immigrate to Israel even if they are christian as long as one of their grandparents was of Jewish ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

No, it doesnt matter! My family where what you described in Germany, but the fact is, after all that they still married Jews and ethnically they were Jewish. The article is about Germans as an ethnic group, not nationality. The fact is, both Einstein's parents and Marx's parents were of Jewish ethnicity, and so were they. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what concensus you are talking about. Many times people said that people who are not ethnically German should not be in the collage and all of them were dismissed in the named of the so called "concensus", which is ironic because here this word is just used by a minority to dismiss a majority. Even though they were assimilated, ethnically they were not German (as much as you would want them to be). If you decided to go according to the national principle and not ethnical, why is there not even one person of Turkish ethnicity? Mesut Ozil for example. There are many assimilated Turks in Germany. Many people mentioned it before and it's obviously the real concensus is not to put non Germans in the collage. You don't need to feel guilty about it, I'm a Jew and I can tell you it's ok, it's just following the procedures of ethnic articles. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you do not see what consensus is being talked about, then you have not checked the archives. That what convinces you strongly is not seen as convincing by the others. By the way, Karl Marx was not a Jew. And if it it would be very strange if all people who are Jews by Halakhic law were excluded from the list of all other countries, not just Germany. Mesut Özil (note spelling) is not in any way as important as, for instance, Karl Marx. Should he become world footballer of the year three times in a row, he might be a candidate for inclusion. -- Zz (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Uh, yes he was. It says on his Wikipedia page that he was of Ashkenazi Jewish descent.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I love it when people who have no idea of the topic start talking about it :-) Jews are an ethnoreligious group, which mean an ethnicity formed around a religion, which includes similar genes (Jews have genes from the middle east as a reference to where they came from). I don't consider myself Jewish by religion, but I am Jewish by ethnicity and nothing can change that. Karl Marx was 100% Jewish ethnically, it has nothing to do with religion. What the Jewish religion says has nothing to do with ethnic identity. If a German converted to Judaism he still remained German by ethnicity, but he obviously is Jewish by religion. Same thing. Karl Marx was ethnically Jewish, his genes were Jewish and not Germanic. I looked at the "concensus" and other pages in the archive and I saw that many people numerous time brough up the fact that people who are not of German ethnicity should be not put in the collage, so again, there is no concensus on the topic, that's why I reopened the conversation. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

ethnicity is not exclusively based on geneaology as commonly assumed, but can be based on geneaology and/or culture and language. please see → RFC → [2] ← --IIIraute (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is genetics+history, what you are talking about is cultural identity or national identity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Make yourself familiar with Wikipedia. During this, check what tone is expected, why a logical argument is preferred, and how that is presented. For instance, I don't consider myself Jewish by religion, but I am Jewish by ethnicity and nothing can change that is just a personal view. Moreover, it does not refute the points brought up by others in any way.

If you really think that persons who are Jews by Halakhic law are not eligible for the inclusion in the notables of any country, then this discussion page is the wrong place to discuss it anyhow. Go to the right place, establish a consensus that Jews should be deleted from the list of notables of any country, and report back. -- Zz (talk) 17:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

This personal view is an example of a fact, you don't have to be Jewish by religion to be ethnically Jewish or the other way round. Raional arguments don't really work here. Many people come and say Einstein and Marx and Jewish by ethnicity, not German, but for a reason it keeps on being dismissed in the name of a certain "concensus". First of all, a concensus can be changed, Wikipedia is built on the principle of constant improvement. Second, a concensus doesnt get challenged so often by so many people. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is a social rather than biological construct. Germans in each state may be more related to people in neighboring non-German provinces than to other Germans. Frisians, Franks, Angles, Saxons, Swabians/Suevi. Eastern Germans may be more related to Eastern Europeans and Asians than other Germans. We think of English prime ministers such as David Cameron and Tony Blair as English, despite non-English surnames, and do not think of the Royal family as German, despite their ancestry. TFD (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is genetics and history. What you are talking about is nationality. Unlike ethnicities like English or Russians which were formed a long time ago, Germans formed their own united identity at a later stage, and before that were split into different states, but what united them into one nation was the common history, culture and origin. Jews in Germany assimilated, but they still didn't become of German ethnicity because it's impossible to change ethnicity. In the case of Einstein, he actually identified as a Jew, so he didn't even see himself as German. In the case of Marx, both his assimilated parents were of Jewish ethnicity. A good example is Italian-Americans. They are Italians by ethnicity, but Americans by citizenship. There is no such ethnicity as American (well, there is native American but that's not what I mean), therefore no one says I'm of American ethnicity, even if they speak English for 9 generations. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Germans are not genetically homogeneous, and in the examples I provided, Germans in some states may be closer genetically to the natives of neighbouring non-German provinces than they are to other Germans. Northern Germans are genetically closer to Scandinavians, central Germans to northern French and southern English, southern Germans to northern Italians, eastern Germans to Poles, etc. Also, European Jews are closer genetically to Europeans than they are to Middle Eastern or Chinese Jews. Ethiopian Jews appear to have no relationship to other Jews at all. The myth of ethnically pure nationalities is a myth that died out with the end of the Second World War. TFD (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Germans are not homogenous, but the fact is, genetically they are a union of specific Germanic (and a bit of Slavic) tribes which formed the German nation. Jews are a Semitic ethnicity, they were not one of the "tribes" or kingdom which became part of the German ethnicity.

That's a lie. Genetic tests showed that Jews are genetically closer to middle eastern populations like Arabs, Druze and Assyrians then Europeans because for most of their history in Europe Jews lived in isolatted communities (until the emancipation). You can read about it in the Ashkenazi Jews article. Even the Genes Jews do have which are not Semitic are mostly Slavic and not Germanic. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You should avoid terms such as "lie" which is not in the spirit of scholarly collegiality. You are misreading the article, there was a high degree of similarity among Jews in Y-DNA but far less in Mt-DNA markers. These markers were also found to a lesser extent in the host population. In some cases, e.g., Ethiopia, there was no similarity at all. "[B]etween 35 and 55 percent of the modern Ashkenazi genome comes from European descent."[3] You still need to explain why people of German ancestry living in the UK, Holland, France, and Italy, are not Germans. TFD (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If someone doesnt tell the truth it's called telling lies. Claming most of the Jewish genes are non-Jewish is a lie. It's not a matter of different opninions. The research you brought clearly states that the 35-55 might come from European descent, but first of all, it's not sure if it's 35 or 55, or maybe 38? or maybe 45? The fact is, even most of that range falls under 50%. Second, no one said the non-Jewish 35-55 come from Germans. It's mostly Slavic actually (don't forget, though Ashkenazi Jews first settled in Germany and France during their first arrival to Europe, when they left those areas due to the crusades and laws against Jews to Poland and the territories under it's control, like Ukraine and Belarus. There the Cossacs raped many women, and that's mostly where those genes come from. As someone who studied History of the Jewish people in the Tel Aviv University that's a topic I studied a lot about). I don't need to explain it because people of German ethnicity who live in the UK are German and in Italy are Germans, they might be British or Italian by nationality but they can't change their ethnicity. AS I said, Italian-Americans. Even after living in America for many generations and speaking English they are still ethnically Italian and American by nationality becuase there is no such ethnicity called American. Again, there were references about Einstien brough here showing he identified as a Jew on an ethnic level, and Marx didn't have and German roots as far as we know. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxons who conquered Britain are called English not German. The Franks who conquered France are called French, not Germans. The Lombards who conquered Italy are called Italians, not Germans. The West Frisians who live in the province of Friesland are called Dutch, not Germans. The Germanic peoples (Danes, Swedes and Norwegians) who live in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, are called Danes, Swedes and Norwegians, not Germans. But this article is about Germans not Germanic peoples. Your claim about Cossacks btw does not explain why there is such a high prevalence of European mitochondrial DNA among European Jews and is just idle speculation. TFD (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

They are not called Germans because they are not Germans. They were specific Germanic tribes which evolved into certain ethnicities, but they were not Germans as in Germans the ethnic group because that ethnic group didn't exist yet. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Because Germans are not a biological group but a social construct. Being a Frank, Anglo-Saxon, Slav, Jew, Catholic, etc. does not make one a German nor does it exclude one. BTW, at what date did "Germans the ethnic group" come into existence? TFD (talk) 12:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"The Germans (German: Deutsche) are a Germanic ethnic group native to Central Europe."

Contrast this with the first line from the Ashkenazi Jews page.

"Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz"), are an ethnoreligious group who trace their origins to the indigenous Hebrew speaking peoples of Canaan in South Western Asia, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, probably during the early Middle Ages.[5]"

This article is about the indigenous people of Germany, not ethnic minorities who originally came from elsewhere. Karl Marx and Albert Einstein may have been German nationals, but they were not indigenous Germans. It would be analogous to putting Ronald Reagan or Jesse Jackson on the Native American template. They should be removed.Evildoer187 (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

recruited opinion/canvassing → [4]. --IIIraute (talk) 16:00, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

100% correct! Great example. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, but please don't attack Illraute on the basis of his German nationality. This is not YouTube.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are right, I went to far there. It's just for me as a Jew whose family in Germany were killed for being Jews (ethnically, nothing to do with religion) it's annoying to hear someone trying to deny the existance of a whole ethnic group. I don't understand why anyone would do it unless they have a certain political morive. It's like in Syria and Iraq when the government tried to deny the existance of the Assyrian ethnic group because of political reason (to dismiss their claim for an independent country). But you are right I shouldn't have went to the level I went there. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

And if we're gonna bring antisemitism into this, it's worth noting that the consideration of Jews as "simply Europeans who converted to Judaism" has been the official party line of antisemitism (well nowadays they call it "anti-Zionism") for decades now. It's utterly pointless to bring up how the Nazis used their non-Germanic origins to persecute them, because the majority of Jews no longer live in Europe, or identify with it. Rather, the majority of American Jews identify more with Israel than their diasporic host countriesEvildoer187 (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, someone of German descent who lives in the UK, Italy, France etc, is still German in all but a national sense. Similarly, someone who is 100 percent Ashkenazi cannot be an ethnic German, because they are not the same thing. This page is about the German ethnicity, not nationality. Therefore, they don't belong on this page. Jews are more similar to other Middle Eastern populations, according to genetic, cultural, historical, linguistic, and other consensus.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:37, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are missing the comparison. Franks from Germany moved to Gaul where they are called French. Franks who remained in Germany are called Franconians. Angles and Saxons who moved to Britain are called Anglo-Saxons or English, those who remained are called Angles and Saxons. Lombards who moved to Italy are called Lombards, those who remained are Suabians. Friesians who moved to Holland are called Friesians, those who remained are called Frisians. English developed from a Low German. Why is an Angle in Angleland (England) English, while an Angle in Germany is German and an Angle in Denmark is Danish, when they are ethically the same people, speaking dialects of the same language if being German is defined by genetic ethnicity? TFD (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You're missing my point. Ashkenazi Jews are not Germans, in the ethnic sense. Those examples you gave are of foreign tribes who gradually merged with native ones in the lands they had settled, thereby creating a new ethnicity altogether. The result is that the modern French population is a amalgamation of Celtic, Germanic, and Latin tribes, the Italians are a confederation of tribes who settled over the centuries, and so on and so forth. No such thing ever happened with Jews in Europe, or anywhere for that matter. This article is about ethnic Germans, not Ashkenazi Jews. So why are Albert Einstein and Karl Marx on here?Evildoer187 (talk) 02:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, considering the purpose of this encyclopedia, how can it be helpful to the reader to call Einstein an ethnic German? Given that ethnicity is a social category, reference to someone's ethnicity should help us better understand the way a person or group of persons function in relation to other people or groups (in addition, of course, to other qualities such as personal character traits, intelligence etc.) and how this influences the courses of their lives. Which label would be more appropriate for this purpose: that of “German” or that of “Jew”? In general, I think, it would be misleading to present German Jews from the Nazi era as ethnic Germans. For these people, the ethnic aspect of their identity had tremendous consequences for their personal and social lives. Calling them ethnic Germans obscures the fact that they were the victims of ethnic cleansing and the participants in an ethnic conflict -even if it was forced upon them, and also upon many of their ethnic German contemporaries- with the German people on the one side and they, the Jews, on the other. Had they been ethnic Germans, their lives would have been very different; the very fact that they were not cost many of them their lives. Iblardi (talk) 08:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong about Germanic tribes. The Friesians for example lived in what is today modern Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands centuries before those nations were formed and are closely related to each other and in many cases continue to speak Friesian, which is a Germanic language. They also speak the languages of their host countries. Yet we do not exclude them. Similarly, other Germanic tribes settled in specific areas of what are now separate nations and regional differences still exist. BTW can you provide a date at which Germans, as distinct from Germanic tribes, came into existence? TFD (talk) 13:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't mention Germanic tribes. Did you misplace your comment? Iblardi (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly! Einstein was not Jewish by religion because his religious views were not Jewish, but ethnically he was Jewish. That's why he had to leave Germany and that's why he supported an independent state for the Jews. Marx would have the same destiny like Einstein if he would be alive at the time, which is immigration due to the fact he couldn't stay in Germany due to his ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Furthermore he identified himself with Jewish culture and Jewish heritage.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 12:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

What is your definition of a Jew? Is it someone descended from a Jew or someone descended from ancient Israelites? Because if it is the latter, then we cannot know if someone is Jewish because we would need to conduct genealogical or research or DNA testing, but if the former it could include people who had the same ancestry as other Germans. TFD (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

He was an atheist Ashkenazi Jew, had Ashkenazi Jewish parents, and identified himself as a Jew, rather than a German. He considered other Jews, and even the Palestinian Arabs if I recall correctly, to be his brethren. That's a pretty clear indicator of how he felt about himself and his people. Furthermore, it would not be in the best interests of this encyclopedia to conflate Ashkenazi Jews with the countries in which they lived, because they are a separate minority like the Gypsies were. They are not the same people.

You would have a case if either Marx or Einstein were recent converts to Judaism, but it's not so. Karl Marx had brown skin, for Pete's sake, and earlier pictures of Einstein reveal that he had very Levantine features.Evildoer187 (talk) 14:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

OTOH, Walther Rathenau, the other most famous German Jew in the Weimar Republic, wrote, "My people are the Germans and no on else The Jews are for me a branch of the German nation like the Saxons, Bavarians or Wends." The Wends are Slavic Germans. Bavarian nationalists often claim they are not Germans. BTW Einstein rejected German nationality, but accepted Swiss and US nationality. Do you have any sources that he rejected German ethnicity, rather than nationality? TFD (talk) 15:04, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

He clearly refers to the non-Jew (goy) as "the other" in the passage quoted from Rosenkranz, 2011, p. 75. Iblardi (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Rathenau, note that “a branch of the German nation” seems overly interpretive if it is meant as a translation of “ein Deutscher Stamm”, which can be more neutrally translated as “a German tribe”. And although he calls the Germans "his people", he might mean this to be taken in a civic rather than in an ethnic sense. In his 1897 article “Höre, Israel!” he clearly treats the German Jews as a people distinct from ethnic Germans, urging his “Stammesgenossen” (which could be translated as “ethnic brethren”), “das schwärzliche Volk” (as he thinks they are perceived by the ethnic Germans), not to engage in Darwinian “mimicry” in order to merely resemble the “Stammesdeutschen” (=“tribal Germans”, ethnic Germans), but instead to work on the “self-education of a race” (“Selbsterziehung einer Rasse”) by discarding all those “Stammeseigenschaften” (“features of their tribe”) that are hated by their “Landesgenossen” (“compatriots”). Here his ideal of “Germanness” seems to be one of citizenship rather than ethnicity. [5] Iblardi (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The reason why I called the translation overly interpretive is that it seems to imply that Rathenau thinks that the Jews and the other German “tribes” have branched off from a common “German” origin, whereas his actual words could point to the opposite, viz. that the Jews and the Germanic tribes are to grow together to form the “roots” of a German “tree”, so that the German national identity will be “rooted” in the various ethnic identities of the historical tribes that the modern nation encompasses. However, Ernst Jacob, in “Walter Rathenau als Deutscher und Jude” (Der Morgen 2 (1926/1927), pp. 603-610), cites from a letter in which Rathenau asserts his Germanness more emphatically, in the type of language that is clasically associated with ethnic identification: “Ich habe und kenne kein anderes Blut als deutsches, keinen anderen Stamm, kein anderes Volk als deutsches. Vertreibt man mich von meinem deutschen Boden, so bleibe ich deutsch und es ändert sich nichts. Du sprichst von meinem Blut und Stamm, selbst einmal von meinem Volk und meinst die Juden. Mit ihnen verbindet mich das, was jeden Deutschen mit ihnen verbindet, die Bibel, die Erinnerung und die Gestalten des Alten und Neuen Testamentes” (p. 604-5; my emphasis). The case of Rathenau seems an especially complicated one. On the one hand, there is his own self-perceived Germanness; on the other, there is a constant need for him to explain and to justify himself to the outside world, which tends to see him primarily as a Jew and a (relative) stranger. Iblardi (talk) 11:49, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Ratnau obviously ment nationality, simply because ethnically he was a Jew, and a big part of the propoganda against him referred to him being Jewish. Einstein never had any Germany ethnicity to begin with to reject it. Do you really don't see that you don't have a case? Jews are a separate independent ethnicity, nothing to do with the Germans on an ethnic level. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

This is sounding a lot like No true Scotsman. siafu (talk) 17:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do people have such a hard time wrapping their heads around the fact that Jews are a diaspora group from the Middle East, thus making them a Middle Eastern people? I'm beginning to think that people just don't want to acknowledge it.Evildoer187 (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No it's more like telling a Scotsman who lives in England that he is ethnically English because he lives in England and speaks English. Or it's like telling Mel Gibson that he is a Native American because he lives in America. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

No, its more like calling Gibson a Scotsman because that is where his ancestors lived, along with British those of PMs Cameron, Blair, MacMillan, and Douglas_Hume, while Thatcher was Welsh and Callaghan Irish. No king or queen has been English since 1066, and of course we can exclude English Jews, such as Disraeli and the Barings. But can you tell me the year that German ethnicity began. TFD (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

You are still missing the point. This article is about ethnic Germans. Albert Einstein and Karl Marx are not ethnic Germans, they are Ashkenazi Jews. Therefore, they don't belong on here. Also, according to this, the people we now call Germans have been present in what is now Germany since the Nordic Bronze Age, if not earlier. Jews, on the other hand, were not present in Germany until the early Middle Ages. Do the math.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

If you define German as people whose ancestors lived in Germany in the Nordic Bronze Age then English people, Franks in France and Lombards in Italy are Germans too, but many if not most Germans in Eastern Germany are not Germans because their ancestors came later. So for the fourth time, please provide the date at which Germans began. TFD (talk) 23:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I define Germans as the indigenous population of Germany. Jews are a separate minority, who originally came from the Middle East. As for the English, Franks, and Lombards, they are English, French, and Italians respectively. They merged with the native populations and forged new ethnicities, and their ancestors had been present in those areas since the stone age. The same can't be said for Jews.

And here's what it says about Germanic tribes....

"The ethnogenesis of the Germanic tribes is assumed to have occurred during the Nordic Bronze Age, or at the latest during the Pre-Roman Iron Age. From southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, the tribes began expanding south, east and west in the 1st century BC, coming into contact with the Celtic tribes of Gaul, as well as Iranian, Baltic, and Slavic tribes in Central Europe"Evildoer187 (talk) 00:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

At what point do you consider German ethnicity to have started? If it began in the Bronze age, then Angles, Franks, Dutch and Suevi living in Angleterre, Frankreich, the Netherlands and Lombardy are just as German as the Angles, Franks, Deutschlanders and Suevi living in Germany. TFD (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not "just as German" because they merged with indigenous populations in other lands and forged new ethnicities. The result is that those populations have Germanic heritage, even though they are not Germans themselves. This has happened countless times in European history. This never occurred with Jews, who have always been and continue to be a separate group. Would you include Romani people in Germany on this page? How about Turks living in Germany? Evildoer187 (talk) 00:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I propose a change of the first sentence from: "This article is about Germans as an ethnic group", to "This article is about Germans as a nation and an ethnic group." Problem solved. see: Austrians, for example. --IIIraute (talk) 02:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

They're not part of the German nation either. The Jews are a nation and ethnoreligious group from the Middle East. We'd still have to remove them from this page.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Both were German nationals, period. →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx.--IIIraute (talk) 02:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't mean they are Germans. Jews are a separate nation from the Germans, as well. Would you include a German born Turk on this list?Evildoer187 (talk) 02:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

A fully assimilated, eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant Turkish/Muslim background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, who attended a Catholic elementary school, did write all his major works in German, and received the Nobel Prize in Physics, being a German national and laureate, while not being able to speak a single word of Turkish? Yes, why not?? --IIIraute (talk) 02:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not? Because he's not of German ethnicity. You are totally confusing ethnicity with nationality. If you would study a bit of sociology you would know that the top level of assimilation is when you marry into the majority group, so as much as they were assimilated they made sure to maintain their Jewish identity. Both Einstein's parents were Jews, same thing about Marx. Getting a noble prize doesnt change your genes or ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Evildoer187, Frisia reaches across three countries, including the province of Friesia in the Netherlands, the district of Nordfriesland and other regions in Germany, and Denmark. They are genealogically related and 100s of thousands retain Frisian languages. Yet they are indigenous citizens of three different countries. How is it that you consider them to belong to three separate ethnicities? And would you consider David Cameron and Margaret Thatcher to be English? TFD (talk) 03:16, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Because they mixed with the local tribes in each area and developed a separate culture and formed separate identities. In the case of the Jews they married Jews and they kept on identifying as Jews for ethnicity. You were brought quotes above about Einstein's self-identification. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The Frisians did not "mix with the local tribes in each area and develope[] a separate culture". They were the "local tribes" living in what is now modern day Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, which is where they still live, and they continue to call themselves Frisians and 100s of thousands of them continue to speak Frisian. That the kings of Europe chose to draw lines on the map did not change their ethnicity, yet they have learned to speak the languages of their host countries and are citizens. And like the English who moved from Germany to England and may have mixed with the local tribes, the Jews moved to Germany and definitely mixed with the local tribes and even adopted their language, totally losing their own. TFD (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One thing seems clear, this article cannot be about pure ethnicity as you define it. Germany has had numerous immigrants, many of which now pass for German. Its a bit like America, on a smaller scale. --Prüm (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The entire purpose of the article is to provide information to readers about the German ethnicity. The entire page is built around that idea, so I don't think re-phrasing a line or two is going to solve the problem. As it stands, Jews are a separate ethnicity, so they don't belong on this page. We already have an article for Jewish diaspora communities in Central/Eastern Europe.

As for the guy who said that Jews "mixed with local tribes and adopted their language, totally losing their own", that is false. There was no extensive admixture with Germanic tribes at any point in history. Rather, the European components in Ashkenazi Jews are predominantly Mediterranean i.e. Greek and Roman. I'm not saying there is no German ancestry whatsoever, just that it's very marginal. Further, Jewish immigrants to Germany modified their old tongue to accommodate their new surroundings. The result is Yiddish, a pidgin language with heavy influence from their native Hebrew tongue and Middle High German. Lastly, Jews in Germany never became ethnic Germans. They don't share the same history, culture, roots, etc, and they were mostly isolated from the larger German society until the 19th century and even that is debatable. So to treat Jews in Germany as ethnic Germans is inaccurate and misleading. Jews =/= GermansEvildoer187 (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

"This article is about Germans as a nation and an ethnic group." Problem solved. see: Austrians → (Freud), Dutch People → (Spinoza), for example. Einstein and Marx were German nationals →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx. Deborah Sadie Hertz, How Jews Became Germans, Yale University, 2007.[6] --IIIraute (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

You do know that Jews are a distinct nation themselves, right? "The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים ISO 259-3 Yehudim Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. " And I'm afraid those changes to the lead don't cut it, because including Einstein and Marx is still tantamount to treating Ashkenazi Jews as ethnic Germans. That would be misleading. Thus far, you've only presented one WP:RS that speaks to the contrary, which gives me good reason to believe it falls under WP:FRINGE.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein and Marx were German nationals, period. It is time to end the discussion. →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx. --IIIraute (talk) 20:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about ethnic Germans, and the rest of it was written with that in mind. Reverting one or two lines in the lead doesn't change anything. Einstein and Marx were Jews, who are a separate ethnicity. They don't belong here.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly - and did you ever consider to read the section called: Ethnicity → [7] -- Guess what - it does include Jews! --IIIraute (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

"The German ethnicity is linked to the Germanic tribes of antiquity in central Europe.[28] The early Germans originated on the North German Plain as well as southern Scandinavia.[28] By the 2nd century BC, the number of Germans was significantly increasing and they began expanding into eastern Europe and southward into Celtic territory.[28] During antiquity these Germanic tribes remained separate from each other and did not have writing systems at this time.[29] By 55 BC, the Germans had reached the Danube river and had either assimilated or otherwise driven out the Celts who had lived there, and had spread west into what is now Belgium and France.[29]"

Does this sound like it applies to Jews? I don't think so.Evildoer187 (talk) 01:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

...wtf! You're wasting your breath!:

"By the Middle Ages, large numbers of Jews lived in the Holy Roman Empire and had assimilated into German culture, including many Jews who had previously assimilated into French culture and had spoken a mixed Judeo-French language.[41] Upon assimilating into German culture, the Jewish German peoples incorporated major parts of the German language and elements of other European languages into a mixed language known as Yiddish.[41] However tolerance and assimilation of Jews in German society suddenly ended during the Crusades with many Jews being forcefully expelled from Germany and Western Yiddish disappeared as a language in Germany over the centuries, with German Jewish people fully adopting the German language.[41] By the 1820s, large numbers of Jewish German women had intermarried with Christian German men and had converted to Christianity.[42] Jewish German Eduard Lasker was a prominent German nationalist figure who promoted the unification of Germany in the mid-19th century.[43]"

Does this sound like it applies to Jews? --IIIraute (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Not really. In order to assimilate, Jews had to leave their Jewish identity behind, usually by way of conversion to Christianity (although religion is only a part of it). Moreover, they obviously didn't assimilate the entire Jewish people in Europe, because it continued to exist long after these events. As far as it is known, Albert Einstein and Karl Marx were 100 Ashkenazi Jewish, not Germanic.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You don't know what you are talking about. Being "Germanic" has nothing to do with ancestry and everything to do with identification with a cu;ltural tradition,that includes language and history. And being "German" has nothing to do with being Germanic, and it hasn't had since 1945. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you don't know what you are talking about. Germanic IS ancestry and it includes common language and history which were formed by people with a similar background which were together in the first place due to the fact they were related. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein was a fully assimilated eighth (or more) generation German citizen of converted, non-observant (German)-Jewish background, with a Germanic given name, a German surname, born, raised and educated in Germany, and attended a Catholic elementary school and didn't speak a single word of Hebrew. Ethnicity is not equal to genealogy, but also incorporates language, nationality, and culture. --IIIraute (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If you would have any knowledge in sociology you would know that the highest level of assimilation is inter-marriage, and Einstein’s family through all the generations married Jewish (he did it to), which shows even though culturally they were assimilated they didn’t loose their ethnic identity. I love it that you argue with what Einstein himself said about his identity, he always identified as a Jew. His Jewish ethnicity was the reason why he had to leave Germany. He had a German name because centuries before that Jews all around Europe were forced to take local names. Also, if an Italian American took an English name does it mean they are ethnically English or Native American? A big part of what is ethnicity is genes, and weather you like it or not, Jews are an ethnic group, a separate ethnic group, and Jews who lived in Germany were not ethnically German. Einstein and Marx are not ethnically German, they are ethnically Jewish. Assimilation can effect on national identity, not ethnic identity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Some contributors here try to argue that Jews cannot be Germans. This is a counterfactual statement. So, ethnic identities are tried to be constructed, usually based on genes, claiming that one excludes the other. These claims show a stranfe and uncanny resemblance to those perpetuated by the Nazis. Further, just as the claims of the Nazis, they lack any scientific rigor. Most genes are shared by most humans, and there is no genetic marker for being German, Jewish, or whatsoever.

Secondly, by the spurious arguments proposed, Jews cannot be members of any other nationality respectively ethnic group. Interestingly and tellingly, our contributors ignore that Jews would have to be taken from all other similar lists in Wikipedia. This critical point is dodged for the umpteenth time. The uncanny resemblance rears its ugly head again. -- Zz (talk) 15:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews and Germans are separate ethnicities. You don't see how including Ashkenazi Jews on a list of Germans could possibly be problematic? Also, please refrain from these fallacious "Hitler would have been proud" arguments. They are useless here.Evildoer187 (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have a helpful information for you: one can be an Ashkenazi Jew and be of German nationality. It is a statement of fact. According to you, however, Jews and almost everything else are separate ethnicities. So, Jews should not appear on the list of any nation, should they? How come you do not address this point? And yes, certain people would have been proud. -- Zz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is about the German ethnicity, not nationality. We already have a page for the Jewish ethnicity, right here. In fact, Albert Einstein is already on it. One cannot be a full Ashkenazi Jew AND be an ethnic German, and to include Marx and Einstein here is misleading. Whether or not the Nazis would have approved is of little concern to me, because my only interest is improving the article.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Either way, I am taking a brief hiatus from Wikipedia. I will discuss this with you further, upon my return.Evildoer187 (talk) 17:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Why shouldn't you be an ethnic German Ashkenazi Jew? Ethnicies aren't mutually exclusive. You even get ethnic Swedish Xhosa and Scottish Maori. You're pretty free to choose or change your ethnicity any way you like, it's not a fixed quality, unlike ancestry. If Einstein and Marx felt that they were German, they were, and if they didn't, they were not. If they also regarded themselves ethnic Jews, then they were that too. It's as simple as that. Who are you to tell them what they can or can't be, and why would you even have an opinion regarding this? It's just not up to you to decide. I really don't understand how this is even worth any discussion. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

No, you can't choose an ethnicity. You can change a nationality, you can choose a cultural identity, but an ethnicity is largely a matter of genes! You can't change genes! You need to read what an ethnicity is. What you are talking about is nationality. Nationality is not a fixed quality. Einstein never said he felt German, that's the point, he always said he felt Jewish, and even if he wouldn't it doesnt matter because you can't decide on your ethnicity. Ancestry is a more "local" version of ethnicity. I can't believe we have people who don't know basic terminology taking part in the discussion and think they make a point! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

What makes you believe that ethnicity is determined by genetics? Seems an odd view of the world... If you can't change your ethnicity, how come so many people are doing it? Also, I am well aware of the difference between ethnicity and nationality, it's just that neither of them is necessarily fixed. Contrary to what has been claimed in this thread there is no genetic factor that makes a person an ethnic German. A large proportion of the British population is of Saxon ancestry and genetically indistinguishable from Germans, but that does not make them ethnic Germans. To quote from ethnicity: 'Ethnicity can, but does not have to, include common ancestry, appearance, cuisine, dressing style, heritage, history, language or dialect, religion, symbols, traditions, or other cultural factor.' (emphasis mine). If Einstein said he's not German, then fine, he's not. It's his business alone, what do you care? I'm just not sure he's ever said that though, and also... I mean... haff you heard ze guy talk? ;-) Perhaps you can only be an Ashkenazi Jew through descent; that's perfectly possible. Being an ethnic German is however not determined by genetics, so there's nothing to stop an Ashkenazi Jew from also being an ethnic German. I know Ashkenazi Jews (by descent) that self-identify as English. Are you seriously suggesting that they are wrong about their own ethnicity? There are indeed a few ethnicities that are relatively closed to outsiders, but a very great number are much more permeable. Many groups will happily assimilate "outsiders" at the drop of a hat. That's just the way it is, relax, have a biscuit. Also, I've followed you invitation below to "think why" your ancestors "through all the generations [they] made sure to marry Jews". I could for the life of me not come up with a good answer, please tell me the reason. Below you also say that Jews "can be members only of the Jewish ethnic group", but in at Jews it says "Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia." (emphasis mine). So do their genes change upon conversion or something, and immediately cease being, say, ethnic Igbo? That makes very little sense. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 01:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

A person's actual genetic makeup is only crucial to his/her ethnicity to the degree that he/she, his/her ethnic group and/or the society at large postulates the existence of such a connection as a requirement for belonging to that ethnic group. This is one of these things that, to me, makes the modern concept of ethnicity so blurry and difficult. I'm not sure if I have mastered it myself.

At any rate, quotes from Einstein, to the effect that he didn't consider himself to be an ethnic German, can be found further above in this rather disorganized thread. Iblardi (talk) 07:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I largely agree with you, except that I would change the first sentence to: "A person's actual genetic makeup is only crucial to his/her ethnicity IF he/she, his/her ethnic group and/or the society at large postulates the existence of such a connection as a requirement for belonging to that ethnic group." For many ethnic groups ancestry is not a fixed requirement, and this includes ethnic Germans (though possibly not Ashkenazi Jews). Rainbowwrasse (talk) 12:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

That definition is to wide and is meant to include groups like the Druze who claim to be an ethnicity but have the same genes as Arabs or Arabs who have a big wide of genes through the Arabic world. The fact is, both in the case of Germans and in the case of Jews we are talking about ethnic groups which are based on genes, that’s why both article have sections about genes. The person you claim to know means he is English by nationality, not by ethnicity simple because he can’t be of English ethnicity because his ancestors were not the Anglo-Saxons and Celts who formed the English ethnicity. That’s what you for a reason find so hard to understand, you can nationality, not ethnicity. The biggest joke is Einstein himself never identified as a German but always identified as a Jew. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

You still haven't demonstrated to me that you can determine German (or English) ethnicity genetically. If I gave you DNA from a central European person, would you be able to determine his ethnicity with absolute confidence? Please state which genetic factors distinguish an ethnic Dutch person from Enschede from an ethnic German from Gronau three miles further east. You will find that there are none. Yes, there are some genetic markers that are relatively common in Germans, but there is no defining German gene, and all markers are also found in the surrounding ethnicities. I don't know why you say that "both article have sections about genes" btw, the word gene isn't mentioned anywhere in Germans. The Jews I mentioned earlier consider themselves ethnically English and are considered as such by the community, ergo they are ethnically English. I don't mean to be rude, but it does seem a bit pompous of you to say they "mean[s he is] English by nationality, not by ethnicity" when I specifically said that they self-identify (i.e. ethnically) as English. You don't even know these people, how could you possibly know what they mean? Just accept that many ethnic groups are not defined through ancestry, even if a few are. Please also stop repeating your "you're talking about nationality, not ethnicity" mantra, it is pretty irrelevant in the real world and is not helpful. As I've said right at the start, if Einstein said he's not an ethnic German, and sources can be found for that, then I'm perfectly happy with that, I have no ideology invested in it. I can also accept if your particular ethnic group is fiercly endogamous and defines itself via ancestry, but you should accept that there are many other ethnicities that do not. Anyway, you still haven't explained that thing about how your genes change when you convert to Judaism. Or is the article on Jews wrong about converts being fully Jewish? If so, why hasn't it been corrected? Rainbowwrasse (talk) 12:05, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

We don't need to define Germans or English to know the simple facts the Jews are a separate ethnicity, just like we don't need to define Germans to say Russians are a separate ethnicity. The English people are the Anglo-Saxons and local Celts which mixed into the English ethnicity, with a common origin, identity and history. The Germans were formed from Germanic tribes during the Holy Roman Empire. The Jews are a separate ethnicity, with separate origins, with their own identity. Just like Turkish people living in Germany. Jews are a Semitic people which originally came from Israel and to this day keeps it's own identity, jsuit like any other ethnic group. You need to except that ethnic groups are defined by ancestry and few other things. You are the one who doesnt know what happens in the real world simple because you mix different terms. You can change a nationality, not an ethnicity. A person can choose an identity, like an Italian American can see his main identity as American and not feel Italian in any way, but ethnically he will still be Italian, it's not changeable. It's your genes, where your ancestors came from. I don't see what's your problem just admitting the fact that Jews are a separate ethnicity. Einstein never identified as a German but for a reason a few Germans here insist on having some ownership on him (after trying to kill him and his people). Jews are an ethoreligious group, which means an ethnicity formed around a religion. When someone converts to Judaism they become Jewish by religion, but not by ethnicity, I never said someone who converts to Judaism will become ethnically Jewish. From the other hand, a Jew which converts to another religion still remains Jewish ethnically because you don't change your genes by converting. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 13:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

sigh* Here you go again with your "ethnicity is fixed by genes" rant, even though you practically conceded that there is no genetic basis to being an ethnic German or English person by completely evading the initial question and saying "We don't need to define Germans or English...". If you want the phrase ethnic German to make any sense at all, then yes, you do need to define it. Please also note that I have never said that Jews are not an ethnic group, I've clearly said that they are multiple times. I've also never said that you claim that conversion to Judaism makes a person an ethnic Jew; the article Jews does, however. I have no problem with Einstein being included in a collage of ethnic Jews; he's clearly said that he's Jewish. But IF he also considered himself an ethnic German, then he was that, too. If not, then he wasn't. If you can't change an ethnicity there should only be a single one, that of the last common human ancestor. Clearly that's rubbish. Most Japanese would not self-identify as ethnic Africans just because that's where their (and everyone's) ancestors originally came from. Ethnicities can develop, change, and assimilate. For a great number of ethnicities self-identification, culture, and custom are at least as important as genetics, and often more so. On a lighter note, your assertion that "...a few Germans here..." were "...trying to kill him and his people..." is a true gem of casual racism. I'm assuming here that you are trying to imply here that all (ethnic, presumably?) Germans, regardless of their age, year of birth or personal history, are guilty of "trying to kill him and his people". Either that, or you are actually saying that Zz, for example, is really a Nazi war criminal that hasn't yet been brought to justice. As I find it unlikely that the German contributors to this thread are a bunch of Nazi OAPs, I must assume that you believe that calling someone a Nazi is in any way acceptable in polite society. It's not. I don't go around calling you a racist, either. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnicity is fixed by genes, it's one of the things making and ethnicity. It's true ethnicities can change and assimilated, just liked the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts became English, but the fact it, the Jews still exist and they are not one of the groups which formed the German ethnicity in the first place and the fact is they still exist and didn't dissapear. Einstein never said he was German, he always said he was Jew. Both of Marx's parents were Jewish, and yes, if you see someones parents, grandparents and etc were Jewish the person is ethnically Jewish. Zz blamed me and Evolidoer187 are doing what the Nazis wanted, which is a joke because how is the fact we still exist something that Hitler would want, so I am saying that if anything, he should check what his great-grandfather was doing in 1941 before he blames people who suffered from Hitler in doing what the Nazis are doing. How is it racist reminding Germans of there past, especially when someone claims Jews are not an ethnicity? I never said all Germans are. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Again you keep repeating that "ethnicity is fixed by genes", but fail to back up that assertion with anything except your own conviction. Further, how is the fact that an ethnic group still exists proof that members of that group cannot form part of another ethnicity? Ethnic Bavarians still exist, and yet they also formed part of the German and Austrian ethnicities. It would be preposterous to argue that an ethnic Bavarian can't be an ethnic German or an ethnic Austrian. Again, if Einstein said that he's a Jew and not also a German, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is you telling other Jews (or anyone else for that matter) that they are not allowed to decide for themselves what ethnicity they consider themselves to be. If a Celt could decide to be English, why shouldn't a Jew? You may not approve of it since your family "through all the generations ... made sure to marry Jews" (btw you still haven't explained to me why they did that), but it's a fact of life that you do not get to decide for other people. Clearly being an ethnic Jew is very important to you, but to other ethnic Jews their "Jewishness", if you want to call it that, it so totally and utterly irrelevant that they wouldn't even give it a second thought. Please don't say "But Einstein said he's a Jew", because this isn't even about him anymore. As to your racism, you were not "reminding Germans of their past" (which in itself would be largely irrelevant here), you were implying that (just by being German) the German contributors (how do you know they are ethnic Germans, anyway?) to this discussion were somehow complicit in the holocaust. That's pretty racist in anyone's book. Anyway, you are apparently just spouting, so any further discussion with you would appear to be futile. We're also veering off topic. You have a nice day now :o). Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:13, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic Bavarians have a similar history and close genes with Germans and Austrians (in fact, all of them were German during the Holy Roman Empire), but it has nothing to do with Jews. The Jews come from a different origin and have a different history. Even in Germany they lived in closed communities for most of the history. How am I being racist by saying the simple fact that Jews and Germans are separate ethic groups? The reason Einstein's ancestors married only Jews was because they were Jews and wanted their children to be Jewish and consider themselves Jewsish, that's what minorities do when they don't want to dissapear. A Celt didn't "decide" to be English, he didn't become English. He married someone Anglo-Saxon, and at some point all Celts and Anglo-Saxons in England were mixed with each other and created one united identity. It's a process which took generations of one new ethnic identity replacing few others which united. The English ethnicity was formed from few groups uniting and mixing. When that happened to Germans, Jews were not one of those groups, that's why they survived as a separate identity. Jews were and stayed a separate independent ethnic group, otherwise they wouldn't be called Jews anymore. The Holocause is involved here in a typical "the new Germany" logic. Russians don't have guilt because they didn't do the holocaust and they didn't put any Jews in their image because they know Jews are not ethnically Russian. Same thing about English people, French people, Polish people and so one. They put just people of their ethnicity in their images, and there's nothing racist about that, it's normal, that's what ethnicity means. Only in Germans a few German guys feel the need to proove that Jews are in fact Germans, which is a result of the guilt feelings. It's prooving the point of not being racist, except you miss the point. The problem is not the fact that you call a Jew a Jew and say "he's Jewish, not Germans", the problem is that during the Holocause Nazi Germany wanted to kill the Jews on the basis of being a Jew, and that is a problem. Mesut Ozil is not ethnically German and no one has a problem saying that because you don't feel guilty in front of Turks (though to be fair, they are not treated as nicely as they should in Germany). Einstein stated he is Jewish, but for a reason you feel the urge to claim different. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble. (A) When did I say Einstein's not Jewish? I'm all for just asking people what ethnicity they are and not forcing them into something. You're confusing me with you. (B) Who here is trying to prove that Germans=Jews? You really think that this whole discussion is about that or about saying the Jewish people don't exist? Who said that? (C) You have no right to decide whether or not I'm English. But I forgive you. You're probably just upset because you're not really Jewish because your granny once ate a cabbage on a Wednesday or something. I'm not sure, I'm pretty new to this inventing-reasons-people-aren't-what-they-think-they-are business. You're the expert. What's the genetic determinant for being German (English, French, Russian,...) again? I think you forgot to mention. (D) At your behest I had a look at Poles and found Joseph Rotblat in the collage. Tsk tsk, those crazy Poles...they probably put him on there because they felt guilt-ridden about starting WW2 by invading Germany. Or is that not how that got started, I can't remember now... Rainbowwrasse (talk) 22:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Guitar hero on the roof, to use your language: How can you guarantee for Einsteins genetic Jewish "purity"? Do you have some source on that claim? Maybe you can find some information on this in some old Nazi files? You could try "Reichsstelle für Sippenforschung" or "Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt", for example. Otherwise it is quite possible that during many centuries of genetic propagation with several other Jewish families (who could have settled in Germany as much as one millenium earlier), the one or the other German gene might have contaminated the purity through the cause of sexual reproduction?? On the long shot that the files will not provide some "purity references", you are pretty much fighting a lost cause. --IIIraute (talk) 19:53, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

No one in the world is ethnically "pure" as you like to say, but the fact is, as far as he knew all his ancestors were Jewish and he always identified as a Jew, never as a German, why? Because he is a Jew and not a German. I don't know how to get information from there, you would know better, but the fact is, ethnicities exist, it's normal and there is no problem with it. I understand your position which is guilt after World War 2 so going from one extreme to the other, but the fact is, people have ethnicities, there is nothing wrong with it, all ethnicities have the right to exist. He might have had someone German many many generations ago, and might have not. He might have had something Slavic, and might have not. There would be nothing wrong if he would, but as long as there is no proof those are speculations. Again, he always identified as a Jew, and everyone in his family were Jews and married Jews as far as we know. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 19:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It's so funny to see a German blaming Jews of doing what the Nazis did. Guess what, me and Evildoer187 are Jewish, and read the articles about Ashkenazi Jews and Jews and it clearly states an ethnic group. I don't know what your great-grandfather did in 1941, mine were either fighting for the Soviet army against the Nazis or mudrered at the Holocaust, so watch out who you are blaming in what. You clearly don't know the difference between ethnicity or nationality. Jews can be members of any nationality, nationality is a matter of citizenship, but they can be members only of the Jewish ethnic group, that's why ethnicity and nationality are different terms. A person can be a member of few ethnicities but only if they have ancestors coming from few ethnicities. If you don't have a proof Einstein and Marx had anyone of German ethnicity in their families they should not be in the collage. Our problem with the Nazis was never pointing out we are a separate ethnicity, race or whatever but the fact that the Nazis were hurting our human rights and tried to destroy us. I had ancestors living in Germany and they considered themselves German by nationality but just like Einstein and many others through all the generations they made sure to marry Jews, think why. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, let me add my input into this.

Jews are in fact an ethnic group. One only needs to see the Genetic studies on Jews article to find that not only are Jews genetically closer to each other than to their host nations, they all trace a common descent to the Levant. There has been genetic input from other groups, but due to centuries of avoiding intermarriage and assimilation and being ghettoized, there is not that much of it. This has been clearly researched and confirmed multiple times, and one only needs to look at that article I gave as proof, but if you want some sources here and now, this, and this and this should suffice.--RM (Be my friend) 20:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

...and your point is?? P.S. Guitar hero on the roof, you shouldn't be doing this → [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]!!! --IIIraute (talk) 21:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. An ethnic German can't claim he's ethnically Jewish even if he converts to Judaism and it's the same the other way round. People here literally don't get what's a nationality and what's an ethnic group (the joke is, they are ignoring what Einstein himself said about his identity). Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

My point is that yes, Einstein should not be put there. Ashkenazi Jewish culture and traditions is different from mainstream German culture (Jews were generally isolated from their hosts because of their separate religious, dietary, and cultural traditions), and on top of that, Einstein emigrated from Germany. As a Jew, Einstein would not have really been biologically related to the German population. Einstein was not biologically nor culturally German. I'm with Guitar hero here.--RM (Be my friend) 21:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

...but you are just a recruited spin-editor → [14]!! --IIIraute (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

You still have not explained why a Friesian who lives in West Friesia, speaks Friesian and is descended from people who lived there two thousand years ago is ethnically Dutch, while a Friesian who lives in East Friesia, speaks Friesian and is descended from people who lived there two thousand years ago is ethnically German. And please no nonsense about how they mixed with the original tribes because they are the original tribe. TFD (talk) 21:51, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Being Jewish who hold the right for German citizenship (though no intend to claim it) since my ancestors lived in Germany for nearly 1000 years until 1935-I'm offended by the racist argument that Jews are not an ethnic group. According to this argument a German who live outside Germany is ethnically German but a Jew who say lived outside Israel or renounce the Jewish faith is ethnically not Jewish. The fact that many Jewish atheists (like this one) see themselves no less Jewish than the chief Rabbi of Israel is not important-what is important-according to TFD for one is that Friesian who lived in West Friesia is ethnically different from one who live in the east of it while nothing is different between them a side for cultural minor differences if at all. Well, the strange artificial dividing into ethnicities in Europe (outcome of political issues) have nothing to do with this discussion but -being resident of Israel I can say that Druze people in Israel call themselves Israelis and in Syria they are Syrian -their ethnicity remines, however, Druze. A decent scholar would say that what make ethnic group for a one is its own unique history (and undoubtedly the history of Jews who lived in Germany have very little to do with the German history-95% of their time in Germany, if not more, they were hunted and persecuted minority and for long time Jews were not even allowed to freely visit in many German cities) its language (well, German Jews started to speak German as their first language only 100 years-give or take a decade-before the holocaust, and even after their prays remain in Hebrew and Aramaic) religion (nothing in common) genetic origin (nothing in common)and etc. While Marx was assimilated Jew and even self hated (he was disappointed when his daughter -whose mother was German and therefore were not Jewish according to the Jewish law- declared herself Jewish) Einstein did not try to affiliate himself with the German people. The Hebrew university of Jerusalem to which Einstein endowed all of his writings released part of them-there are many many remarks of him on German people and on himself as a Jew. I can say that he didn't see himself as German to any extent, was in favor of heavy punishment against Germany right after WWII and pretty much blame the whole German people for what happened and affiliate himself very strongly with Jewish people. On footnote I will end by saying that Jewish people are undoubtedly ethnic group in every possible way. But in different then any other ethnic group, once one convert to Judaism he/she become part of this ethnic group in many ways and formally. However, the rate of conversions to Judaism is very low and too insignificant to be considered. In fact, I believe the percent people of different origins (e.g., Polish, Russians, Romanians, Gypsies, Turkish) that are assimilated to the German people is much higher though the process is different. It's really nice that you argue that their are no Jewish people only Jewish faith and that you now made Einstein your own property, however-this is false. P.S., The discussion on genetic studies is futile, the consensus in academy-after more than 100 studies published and many more done every year is that Jews are one ethnic group from the genetic point of view with very few exceptions (Ethiopian Jews) and Jews from Germany are genetically Jewish and anyway share pretty much nothing with the German people.--Gilisa (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

...and another recruited POV-pusher → [15]. --IIIraute (talk) 01:07, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

What's the matter? Nothing else to say? Fronm what I see the user gave you facts, but due to the fact it's obviously prooving you wrong you have no choice just to complain. It's normal to ask someone who has knowledge on the topic to comment on the dialogue, especially when unlike you he gives the facts and not how he would like the facts to be. React to the facts, because that's what the discussion should be about (in theory), and not "he won a Noble prize that's why he's German and Mesut Ozil is not". Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:10, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Jews are unquestionably an ethnic group. And a religious group. See ethnoreligious group.
• Holocaust makes it such a charged issue: "How dare Germany claim a Jew it drove away (or killed)?" But ethnicity is not just genetic, and to a great extent it depends on what an individual himself/herself chooses. Let's take the discussion away from Germany. Sammy Davis Jr. considered himself African-American (or the equivalent term of the day) and Jewish. What's the problem with that?
• And Holocaust cuts the other way, too. Normally I would consider a Jew actively professing Christianity to be no longer a Jew for most purposes. But if Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger—who was raised Catholic after his parents were martyred in the Holocaust—considered himself a Jew as well as a Catholic, I'm not prepared to challenge his birthright.
• I think Einstein made it clear he was a Jew, not a German. I think Marx substantially expressed the opposite. Why are we challenging their own definitions? StevenJ81 (talk) 23:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your observation that "to a great extent it depends on what an individual himself/herself chooses": I know that this is the theory, but the problem is that a person may not really be free to choose his own identity in practice if he lives in a society that is used to assigning ethnicity to its members on an essentialist basis. The only ones that could really "choose" their ethnicity in any way that mattered would have been the ones that could pass for "indigenous", European Germans on account of their external features and who were able to hide their Jewish ancestry from the dominant ethnic group. Iblardi (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Whoa there, fellers! Just to get this cleared up: As far as I can see from this increasing tedious and convoluted thread, nobody here has claimed that Jews aren't an ethnic group. It's mostly about whether Einstein was (ethnically) Jewish, German, both, or (OMG! let's spend days tiffing about this one) neither. Apparently the great man considered himself neither a German citizen nor [of the] Jewish faith. But I am a Jew, and I am glad that I belong to the Jewish people, even though in no way do I consider them to be the chosen ones. Seems fairly clear-cut. Jews: 1 Germans: 0 (and as StevenJ81 just pointed out: Marx: Jews: 0 (maybe 1 after penalties) Germans: 1) Why some people feel the need to turn this into a platform for anti-German sentiment, ethnic pigeonholing, and fairly blatant racial abuse is anyone's guess, please stop. Also, it may be worth noting that WP:canvassing is not considered good form, especially if it is done with false accusations. Cheers, Rainbowwrasse (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein as far as we know had only Jews in his family and he identified only as a Jew, never as a German! That's the simple truth. The quote you gave proves that he saw himself as an ethic Jew, that's where the Einstein case should be closed. So why is he still in the image? Why is User:IIIraute still saying yes but his family lived in Germany for 8 generations (so what? They made sure to marry only Jews so their children would stay Jewish, and does an Irish American become a Native American after 8 generations)? You might have not said Jews are not an ethnic group, but others here did. Now about Marx, both his parents were Jews, his grandparents were jews (and apprently rabbis, and were talking about Orthodox Rabbis), and his parents converted to Christianity just so their sone wouldn't have to deal with anti-semitism, but that still doesnt change his ethnicity! That's the thing, if a Turk converts to Christianity and lives in England, do their origins change to Anglo-Saxon? That's exactly the point. I admit I went to far with some expressions, but there were clearly quotes brought here about Einstein's idenitty and about the Jewish ethnicity but still it comes accross a brick wall. It's normal to ask someone who has knowledge on the topic to comment on the dialogue, especially when unlike you he gives the facts and not how he would like the facts to be. They didn't come here to revert or to insult, purely for the facts. The fact is, so far they gave quotes and valuable information. Due to the nature of the page it's edited mostly by Germans, but in such a discussion it's fair if Jews present some quotes from their side. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute I suggest you to comply with WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL and don't call me POV pusher. Refer to the facts, if you know how. If there is POV here, aside for the violation of WP:OR by the argument that there is no Jewish ethnicity (even if they are, even if they see and seen as ethnic group) -then this is the German nationalistic POV that try to make worlds greatest minds ethnically German (even in the case of Einstein who made numerous remarks about his distance from the German people, his closeness to the Jewish people and Jewish mentality (his own words) and predicted that if the relativity proven right German supremacists will argue he's German but Jew if it's proven wrong). There is nothing German in the ethnicity of Einstein-undoubtedly he was German citizen for a long time, born in Germany, his language was German and he was grown much in German culture but wasn't and didn't see himself as ethnic German-the same is today with many second generation Turks who live in Germany. Comparing Jewish people to artificial ethnic groups in Europe is at least irrelevant and pointless and again OR. Before Hitler raise to power 40% of professors in German universities were Jews-more than 40 times their ratio in the German population, this just emphasize that aside for their self-definition, history and etc -their Jewish ethnicity played unique part in their academic achievements. Wikipedia is not real life, you can argue as much as you want that Einstein was ethnically German- a side for being disrespectful for Einstein and motivated by nationalistic need to prove that German people are superior, we all here know this is false. --Gilisa (talk) 09:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

...but you were recruited through canvassing - weren't you? → [16]. --IIIraute (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That's the joke, he thinks he knows better then Einstein who Einstein was! His best argument is "they were assimilated", but if they were so assimilated why did they marry only Jews? I studied sociology and we learned about different levels of assimilation, and the highest level of assimilation is marriage, because let's say if a Jew married a German he is still Jewish, his children will be half Jewish, but would his great-grandchildren know they have Jewish ancestors...? So this is the highest level of assimilation because one group swallows the other or two groups create a new one, but the fact is, even though culturally assimilated most of the Jews in Germany (including Einstein's family) made sure to marry Jews, and that shows the simple fact that they wanted to keep their ethnic identity Jewish. If they would really ethnically assimilate we wouldn't even have this discussion because Jews wouldn't exist anymore! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 09:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews are ethnic group and they were considered such for centuries, this is how Israeli central bureau of statistics counts them, [17], this is in the basics of Jewish religion and this is how genetic science relates to them Genetic studies on Jews. To deny this fact to Jewish people is something that has really no place in this encyclopedia.--Tritomex (talk) 09:55, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

...another recruited opinion through canvassing → [18]. --IIIraute (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein was ethnically Jewish, and declared himself as such. He was in some period of his life also a German citizen but this has nothing to do with his ethnicity. I am for example Serbian citizen but I am not Serbian as my ancestors and my ethnicity is Hungarian.

Look, maybe I'm missing this, but can anyone give me the exact quotes (by Illraute or whoever) to show that anyone claimed that Jews are not an ethnic group? I can't see that anywhere. If it's there and I missed it, boo and hiss. If it's not there, y'all keep your pantyhose on and stop fantasizing about some German supremacy plot to suppress the Jewish ethnic identity. So Einstein was Jewish and not German, Marx was of Jewish ancestry and German. Big deal. It’s their business alone. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 11:13, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That is what IIIraute says: "In his youth, Einstein did not identify strongly with Jewish culture and religion. And even if he did, it's a matter of religion and not of ethnicity." It's clearly claiming that Jews are a religion and not and ethnicity. And here's another one of his "pearls": "Look, I think it is great that Einstein suddenly discovered "that he was a Jew" in his late thirties, but this article is about Germans as an ethnic group, and not Einstein's religio-moral identity crises." The second one was after he totally ignored the explanation that Jews are an ethnic group and again trying to claim it's a religious matter.

And based on what are you saying that Marx is not of Jewish ethnicity? From what I read, his grandparents and parents were Jewish. I agree it's not a big deal, so Einstein and Marx should be simply taken out of the infobox and replaced by people of German ethnicity.

I'm not claming all Germans are like that, but for me it obviously has something to do with the “New Germany” psychological crisis. What I mean is, some Germans are feeling guilt for the approach Germany used to have which is “Destroy the minority. No minority, no problems”, and they bring a new approach: “Ignore the minority existence and claim they are in fact Germans. No minority, no problems”, when the approach should be much more simple: “Yes, minorities exist, they are not ethnic Germans, but it doesn’t mean they don’t have a right to exist as citizens with equal rights and as minorities with the right to self-express themselves. There are minorities, and it’s not a problem”. The fact is, when you go to the English, Russians, Belarusians, Scots pages they have people only of the ethnicity the article is talking about, non of them have Jews in their images, because they don't feel any guilt or crises on the topic. All those countries had famous Jews from converted families like Marx, but they still understand those guys are still of Jewish ethnicity. From the other hand, out of all pages on the Germans page there is an attempt to turn ethnic Jews into ethnic Germans. How come other pages about ethnicities don't have this issues? That's my point.Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 11:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 11:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, lets break this down then: Illraute said that in his youth Einstein did not identify strongly with with Jewish culture and religion. Someone may convert to Judaism and identify with Jewish culture and religion. According to you, that does not make him an ethnic Jew (Jews suggests otherwise, but let's assume your POV for the time being). Therefore, as per Illraute's and your OWN arguments, identifying with Jewish culture and religion 'is' a matter of of religion and culture, not of ethnicity. Einstein's ancestry is irrelevant for whether or not he identified with Jewish culture and religion. Illraute's second comment is about how he came to identify himself as Jewish in later life. He (re-)discovered and cultivated his Jewishness, if you will. This cultivation of an common identity by individuals is crucial to maintaining a coherent ethnic group. To quote from the article: Ethnic identity is constantly reinforced through common characteristics which set the group apart from other groups. Illraute has not said that ethnic Jews don't exist.

On to Marx. From what I gather, Marx identified with German culture, fully immersed himself in it, and was considered fully German by Germans. Whether you like it or not, that suffices to make him an ethnic German. 'German-ness' is not defined by genetics (cf. Dutch vs German, which are genetically indistinguishable). Marx rejected his Jewishness, which I find sufficent reason to not consider him an ethnic Jew. You disagree, deny him the right to decide for himself, and include him in your ethnicity. Fine. That's why I said '1 on penalties' further up in this thread. With Einstein it is the other way around. There are reasons to consider him an ethnic German (and please don't start with his genes again, they are irrelevant for this; the German ethnic group is not defined by genetics), but he himself did not consider himself one. I accept that. Ilraute and others take the same stance as you with Marx: They apply their definition of their own ethnic group, deny him the right to decide for himself, and ALSO include him in their ethnicity. I don't see that anyone has claimed that he was not of Jewish ancestry; it's about whether or not he's also German. You're basically fighting about whether a ball is red or round. Why do you find is so hard to accept that not all ethnicities are genetically determined? Can you tell a Dutchman and a German apart by looking at their DNA? Rainbowwrasse (talk) 14:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Karl Marx was self-hated Jew who made several high profile antisemitic remarks, his case is not important for me-in any case he wasn't ethnically German (though if it wasn't the principle we are talking about the case of Marx is not that important). It's very well accepted in academy to describe demography of countries by ethnic groups. For instance, if there are 1 million ethnic Germans in Russia then Russian demography will include ~0.75% Germans in the demographic survey-even if they speak Russian, married to ethnically Russian people, eat Russian food and hold only Russian citizenship. From previous debates I had with Germans who fervently argued Einstein was ethnic German they some times came with the argument that "The Nazis so Jews as ethnicity-do you want to go back to these days". Well, this kind of arguments have much audacity in them. Jews are the last people that have to pay for horrific crimes made by German people-German history can't dictate anything for Jews. Moreover -the logic of such tasteless arguments goes like this "We made crime and killed you, now-for your own sake-we have taken your identity (because it pisses us and we don't want to be pissed off, for your own safety), keep ours (meaning: we're ethnic group and people and you don't) and by the way inherited your achievements. So thanks, you can be pissed off if you like-we're cool with that, but don't twist history and facts please. As for this thread-can someone do me a favor and google the remarks Einstein made on Germans and on Jews (search for the Hebrew university source which include them all). The article is on Germans as ethnic group, and Einstein clearly shouldn't be there. What more that the mosaic picture include some high profile anti-semitics (Like Vagner who was not less than Hitlers ideological Godfather)-it's an insane paradox and every honest person would admit they don't belong to the same ethnicity and certainly not in the same mosaic. --Gilisa (talk) 11:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

...his name was "Wagner". --IIIraute (talk) 16:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That's all you have to say? Sorry, he didn't mean to hurt your feelings by writing his name in a wrong way. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm absolutely careless about this pre-Nazi name, but thanks for letting me know. BTW, where did you remove all of my posts and by which authority? --Gilisa (talk) 16:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Removing Einstein picture from the infobox

Per the thread above there is no reason to keep Einstein in the infobox mosaic. Ethnicity is defined by the historical line one belongs to. Einstein didn't see himself German by ethnicity or by much else and his ethnicity was not German. The argument Jewish people do not consist ethnicity is not a legitimate nor valid one and of bad form, to say the least. Also, the mosaic includes several high profile antisemitic people, like Wagner- a composer and the godfather of Nazi ideology-there is much absurdity in the idea of having Einstein in the same mosaic with Martin Luther (who called Christians to show "painful mercy" to the Jewish people) and Wagner and arguing they are of the same ethnicity. Lets close this thread fast and remove Einstein from the infobox. As for Marx, while ethnically he wasn't German (actually both his grandparents were Rabbis) -I will not argue for his removal for the purpose of saving all of us time.--Gilisa (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

"Before Hitler raise to power 40% of professors in German universities were Jews-more than 40 times their ratio in the German population, this just emphasize that aside for their self-definition, history and etc -their Jewish ethnicity played unique part in their academic achievements." - so it was their race/genetics, is it that what you are saying? P.S. do you have a reference on that 40 per cent?? --IIIraute (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your sanity. I suggest replacing him with Max von Laue. He's a physisist, won a Nobel prize, opposed the Nazis, and knew Einstein personally. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 14:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Good suggestion! Popular figure with a positive image and big contribution. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Hermann Hesse or Hildegard von Bingen, would be a better, i.e. more prominent choice.--IIIraute (talk) 15:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I think Hildegard von Bingen would be the best choice, as there are hardly any medieval people in the current line-up, and only 13% women (of which 50% are models). I am a bit surprised that Angela Merkel is not in there, and one might also consider for instance Käthe Kollwitz, Herta Müller and Magdalena Neuner. It appears to me that male writers are already well represented; if one more should be added, I would have suggested Berthold Brecht, as to cover the DDR period. I wonder more generally, if it is intentionally to exclude the "bad guys", like Nazi leaders, Erich Honnecker? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iselilja (talk • contribs) 20:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree about Einstein, though I do think Marx to should be removed, simply because he wasn't German by ethnicity. Conversion did not making him German, just Christian, and even that he declined as an atheist. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Here we go again - your ethnicity equals genetics racial theory! --IIIraute (talk) 15:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

You are the top expert here on racial theories trying to make an ethnicity dissapear. That's where your logic got twisted in the quest to get redemption for the deeds of your ancestors, saying that someone is not a German because they are not of German ethnicity is not racism and not a racial theory, saying that someone is better then someone else because of their race is racism. Different ethnicities have the right to exist and to express themselves. I understand you are trying to proove how far you are from the Nazis by trying to proove Jews are Germans, but don't you get you are fighting for the same cause as them, deleting the Jewish race? The fact is, Jews exist as an ethnic group and I don't see how saying that fact is racism. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Deborah Sadie Hertz, How Jews Became Germans, Yale University, 2007. --IIIraute (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute, my source is the great historical book "The Pity of It All: A Portrait of Jews In Germany 1743 - 1933 " by Amos Elon -and I can't find how this fact is surprising given the large number of Jewish people among German Nobelists. In any case my point was to demonstrate the cultural differences even when they apparently assimilated among Germans still there were occupations more affiliated with Jews, I have no racist meanings. Anyway, some Jews tried to become Germans (thanks to centuries of persecutions and oppression) but it doesn't change their ethnicity. --Gilisa (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

...meaning - ethnicity equals genetics/race? -- Regarding your 40 per cent reference - page?? Maybe the success also had to do with the German scholarly ethic? Z. Rosenkranz, Einstein before Israel: Zionist icon or iconoclast?, Princeton, 2011: "His relationship to his own German identity was also fraught with ambivalence; in the end ... he felt a great deal of allegiance to German culture, and even more to the German scholarly ethic" (p. 255-56). --IIIraute (talk) 16:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Guitar hero on the roof, the opposite is right: Saying Jews are not ethnic group is racist. It's very much to deny the Jewish people as a nation. Enemies of the Jewish people once argued Jews are inferior race and today they argue that they don't have the right for self-identification. It's also very historical practice, from the historical point of view Jewish people are one of worlds oldest nations.--Gilisa (talk) 17:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

IIIraute, again- I said nothing about the genetic issue the whole point was to demonstrate difference and perhaps it wasn't the best way to do that so just drop the pen. The page? Again, this remark is not very important and I don't have the book at hand reach right now-if you insist I will tell you in several days. I doubt the success had anything with German ethic given that Jews gained similar level of achievements in Spain-many centuries earlier, and even before, given that they enjoy the same level of achievements in the US and in many other places today. BTW, at least in science-in Israel as well. You could say it's the German ethic if their performances were equal to their percent in the population but given it isn't I refer it to very very long history of putting education in high esteem- starting from the days before exile Jews preferred to marry their daughters to Talmid Chacham certainly if he's Illui than to rich or influential men and vice versa, Talmid Chacham would chose his women by the righteousness of her parents. So, this is really long history of culture which admire knowledge just for the purpose of knowledge and also free thinking (infact, in famous remark Einstein praise his Jewish heritage for this exactly).--Gilisa (talk) 17:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Look, guys, please don't start this again. Everyone here knows and accepts that Jews are an ethnic group and that Einstein was a part of it. He did not see himself as an ethnic German. Conversion to Christianity and his later loss of faith obviously didn't make Marx German, but he and the German people around him considered himself as such, and that suffices and should be accepted. It does not erase his Jewish ancestry, but unlike Jewish ethnicity German ethnicity does not put a strong emphasis on genetics and ancestry, so there is no contradiction. I am sure that there are some people out there who think that Jewishness is a religion, but this is mostly out of ignorance. Let's just stick with Einstein out, Marx in. Also, let's not make this about whether Einstein was successful in what he did because of Jewish or German attributes. He was shaped by both, so Jews and Germans can both rightly claim a connection with him, regardless of his ethnicity, just as the French and the Poles both do with Marie Curie. As for the alternatives for Einstein, I still think replacing a physicist with a physicist is the way forward. I would also contend that Hildegard of Bingen and Herrmann Hesse are less well known internationally than Max von Laue, but perhaps that is only my impression. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 17:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I should avoid mentioning a fact that would lead to discussion about attributes (though my idea was only to mention cultural differences but I could do that by pointing to Einstein childhood which had strong secular and also religious Jewish aspects and is not typical to Germans) -anyway, it appear that I made unnecessary remark. Rainbowwrasse, I agree with most of what you wrote-lets put Einstein out of here. BTW, I don't agree with what you wrote about the way ethnicity is viewed by Germans vs. Jews.

This was not aimed at you, I think your comments were valid. As to the different views, let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Right. I just checked, and this article originally also covered Germans as a nation before references to nation were removed in an unexplained edit. Also, a separate article on Ethnic Germans exists. You'll be happy to know that the illustrative picture that goes with that features neither Einstein nor Marx, but some drunk Argentinians. I reinstated the word 'nation' to the 'Germans' article, which is more appropiate anyway because the article not only deals with ethnicity. I trust that resolves the issue to everyone's satisfaction. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks-in any case it would be appropriate to remove the picture (Einsteins' only) from this article. In case one argue it's now about Germans as nation (meaning citizens or past citizens of Germany that grew and/or are/were immersed into German society) and by that want Einstein picture to stay here then I think we must include Turks and black Germans as well-otherwise it implies that the article mean to something else. Anyhow, given that Einstein renounced his German citizenship and stated many times he have no intention to return to Germany it would be of bad taste even to include him in article about German citizens (in case this is all about and I doubt it), IMO.--Gilisa (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, it still says in the opening origination from central Europe, while the Jews originated in the Middle East. I still think Einstein should be removed from here. Besides, he wasn't a German citizen at the end of his life and wasn't a big fan of Germany either. Einstein should still be removed. The article Ethnic Germans doesnt cover the German ethnicity in general but only the German diaspora so it has nothing to do with the case. I don't agree with keeping Marx but accept it as a concensus (though still don't get the logic of it but whatever). Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Guitar hero on the roof ,There is not much logic in keeping Marx in an article that readers at least think to be about Germans as ethnic group. If Marks was perceived only as individual then it's ok, but it's not the case. The case is that every one in the info box represent the entire German people, meaning the German ethnicity-and if that so, then it means that Marx representing the Germans as ethnicity and then it's not longer Marx, it's German Jews who are now represented as part of ethnicity different of their real one -and then every German Jew is ethnic German. This is bad encyclopedic standard. As for Marks by himself, I don't care much - he didn't identify himself with Jewish people and even flame against them and expressed no feeling through Jewish people, at least not publicly -and I guess that not even privately (though interestingly enough his non-Jewish daughter did see herself as part of the Jewish people) so just to solve the issue fast I agree that his picture stay in the infobox. Footnote, though Marx thought about himself as German and his closer circle friends considered him one-I believe he experienced antisemitism against himself many times. --Gilisa (talk) 20:46, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I also think Marx should be removed. It doesn't matter that he assimilated and disavowed his Jewish heritage, he was still an ethnic Jew for all intents and purposes. If I move to China and assimilate into their culture, I'm still an Arab-Jew at the end of the day.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh for pity's sake, will you stop already? The article now clearly says nation as well. Take out Einstein if the guy didn't want to be associated with the country in any way, but this is starting (STARTING?) to get ridiculous. The French people collage is riddled with people from all over the place (Curie, Polish; Napoleon, Italian,... hey, isn't Sarkozy part Jewish? Better kick him out of there asap!) and nobody is getting their knickers in a twist about that. And just an info, 'China' is not an ethnicity. Why are people here constantly trying to claim that the Manchu (Hui, Miao,...) aren't an ethnicity? I better get all my Manchu mates together to rant on about how that's a flipping disgrace...! Rainbowwrasse (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I made this point quite early in this discussion: ""This article is about Germans as a nation and an ethnic group." Problem solved. see: Austrians → (Freud), Dutch People → (Spinoza), for example. Einstein and Marx were German nationals →→ see: Albert Einstein, Karl Marx." --IIIraute (talk) 00:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

You are right, Napoleon and Curie do not belong on there as they are not ethnic French. Sarkozy is half Greek-Jewish and half Hungarian, so he shouldn't be there either. Your point about the Manchu doesn't even make any sense, given that they are a native Chinese people. Jews, on the other hand, did not even originate in Germany, and the two groups have very little in common with each other. To count them as ethnic Germans is ludicrous.

And including "nationality" in the lead unnecessarily widens the scope of the article. The entire page would have to be re-written from scratch if we were to include that.Evildoer187 (talk) 01:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, interesting... The Miao ... is an ethnic group ... whose members may not necessarily be either linguistically or culturally related. For this reason, many Miao peoples cannot communicate with each other, and have different histories and cultures. Whoa! An ethnic group whose members aren't linguistically or culturally related? Let me just go scrape my brain off the wall! Rainbowwrasse (talk) 17:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Not true. The article was written about Germans as a national and ethnic group. Why would there otherwise be a separate article on "Ethnic Germans". Please note that the article also includes Slavic people, for example. Karl von Clausewitz is a famous German whose surname is of Slavic origin. --IIIraute (talk) 01:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

You are so funny :-) JUsut 2 days ago you were claming Einstein and Marx are ethnic Germans, no you change the whole mantra :-) ? The article was just changed to "ethnicity and nation", but the fact is, Einstein didn't want to be associated with this nation. Another point is "originating in central Europe", while the Jews didn't originate in central Europe due to the fact they came from the middle east. Weather you define the article by ethnicity or nationality Einstein should be removed. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This article states ethnic group and a nation, not or, it doesnt just say "nation". In other words this article is a history of Germans in Germany, therefore people of non German ethnicity should not be in the collage. Otherwise the article would be called Germany and not Germans. The fact is, in articles like Russians, English people, Belarusians, Tatar people, Assyrians, Han Chinese, Native Americans, etc, they have only people of their own ethnicity, simply because they know the difference between nationality and ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Er, no. It says 'nation or ethnic group'. Anyway 'Lord of the Rings' is also a book and a movie. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 11:00, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein was Jewish both by his ancestry and by his feelings. He was not ethnically German.--Tritomex (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Canvassing

I find it very problematic to continue the discussion with several of the editors involved, for the fact that they were "recruitet" through canvassing! →→ [19], [20], [21], [22], [23] -- I also find several of the comments here more than problematic: "IIIraute...maybe it's in your genes to want to wipe the Jewish race, I don't know..."; "...so I am saying that if anything, he should check what his great-grandfather was doing in 1941..."; "Only in Germans a few German guys feel the need to proove that Jews are in fact Germans, which is a result of the guilt feelings."; "I understand your position which is guilt after World War 2 so going from one extreme to the other..."; "It's so funny to see a German blaming Jews of doing what the Nazis did."; "I don't know what your great-grandfather did in 1941 ... so watch out who you are blaming in what."; "...you can argue as much as you want that Einstein was ethnically German- a side for being disrespectful for Einstein and motivated by nationalistic need to prove that German people are superior..."; "You are the top expert here on racial theories trying to make an ethnicity dissapear. That's where your logic got twisted in the quest to get redemption for the deeds of your ancestors..."; "I understand you are trying to proove how far you are from the Nazis by trying to proove Jews are Germans..."; " I guess Germans have a thing for trying to make the Jewish ethnicity not exist." --IIIraute (talk) 03:59, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

What I find problematic is that you have mothing to say so you start playing with other things :-) It's not canvassing for a simple reason. People who I asked to participate are not reverting anything and not edit-warring, they were brought here for a simple reason. Due to the nature of the page it has mostly German editors, while in this specific case it’s important that Jews would take part and give quotes regarding the topic, which involves them. You were brought quotes proving Einstein saw himself as a Jew and didn’t see himself as a German at all. Those stuff proved you wring so now you are dealing with things which have nothing to do with the topic. The joke is, everyone reached a compromise, but you are still not settled because you feel humiliated. Grow up and reply to the facts. The quotes you brought are hilarious, compared to your racist quotes I gave on this page calming Jews are not an ethnicity and calming the Jews here are bringing out “racial theories” simply because they state that Jews are an ethnic group. Most of the quotes you brought were an answer to other rude statements. For example a guy blaming the Jews of doing what the Nazis did... it's true, his great-grandfather was probably wearing a Nazi uniform in 1941 so he should be careful who he blames of what. Add this quote to. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

...yes, maybe his great-grandfather did wear a Nazi uniform, though quite unlikely - more likely it was a Wehrmacht uniform, and maybe it was that of a baker, or firefighter - or maybe he belonged to the ca. 100,000 German citizens who were killed for one or another form of resistance... the problem is, you don't know, but you apply some collective "guilt-scheme" on all Germans, by race. Also approx. 7-9 million Germans died during WWII - were they all guilty and therefore deserved to die? What does this have to do with the discussion anyway?? No one ever said that Jews are not an ethnicity, or could you please point out where exactly this was said? Instead it was argued, that ethnicity implies several factors and can not only be decided through genetics/race.

NO compromise has been reached - the only one I can see was to reinstate the notion that this article was about Germans as nation and ethnic group.

The editors were clearly recruited, only to influence the outcome of this discussion therefore making their contribution strongly biased. Some of the comments are very offensive, racist and this undertone of anti-German sentiment is not acceptable, and should not be tolerated.

There only has been no edit warring, because the images cannot be removed without deleting the whole mosaic display - however, the edit warring did already happen at Austrians, trying to remove Freud. --IIIraute (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

In everyone's defence, I must say that it is very laudable that there has been no edit warring at all going on, even if Guitar hero on the roof's notification on user's talk pages wasn't particularly neutral and a bit anti-German and (in my view at least) somewhat inappropriately done. Still, this isn't getting any closer to a resolution. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 11:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought we reached a compromise that Einstein is gone and Marx stays (though I still think both should be taken out). Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 13:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It´s canvassing to contact people on "your side" to come to the talk page and influence the outcome of a discussion, even if they don´t start an edit war. The important point here is contacting "people on your side". If one wants to invite more people to a discussion it must be done in a neutral manner on a neutral site; like for instance a project site. And some of the sentences quoted by IIIraute are of course totally unacceptable. With regards, Iselilja (talk) 14:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

True, but I didn't know they will be on my side. I knew they were editing pages regarding Jews so assumed they were Jewish, but I didn't know what opinion they will have on the topic. The reason I invited those specific people was because I saw that when they did edits they were always well referenced so as far as I was concered I was inviting people with knowledge. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:25, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

...yes, right, you invite/canvass editors you "assumed they were Jewish ... to join the discussion and help explain ... to a bunch of Germans ... that Jews are an ethnic group and Einstein (who identified as a Jew) and Marx are Jewish." ...because, you "guess Germans have a thing for trying to make the Jewish ethnicity not exist." But surely you did this with the best of intentions, not following some POV-pushing agenda... You better believe it! --IIIraute (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein and Marx attempt for resolution

Should Einstein and Marx be mentioned in an article on Germans?

Discussion

• Remove both I think Einstein and Marx both should not be in the image due to the arguments brought above. First of all, both Einstein and Marx were of Jewish ethnicity. Second, in Einstein’s case he always stated he is Jewish and he actually stated many times he isn’t to keen on Germans for various specific reasons but he never said he feels German. Third, it’s simple disrespectful to have ethnic Jews in a collage with the likes of Wagner and Martin Luther who were explicitly anti-Semitic. The arguments denying the fact Jews are an ethnicity were proven wrong. Also, I believe it was proven that though culturally assimilated Jews never assimilated to the extend to be called ethnic Germans (otherwise they would not marry Jews and they would disappear and we wouldn’t have this discussion. More simply, Jews would not state Jew in the census questions when asked about ethnicity if they would consider themselves ethnically Germans). Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 13:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

...so, now showing your true colours, they have to go because it is "disrespectful to have ethnic Jews in a collage with the likes of Wagner and Martin Luther". That's what this is all about - you are joking, right? --IIIraute (talk) 15:52, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Guitar hero on the roof, please consider that the article now also deals with the German nation. As to your argument that it would be disrespectful to have Jews and Martin Luther in the same collage, Nietzsche didn't like antisemitists (an anti-antisemitist?, does that word exist? It's probably just called 'being normal'), so should we remove him because it is disrespectful to Martin Luther? Or perhaps you would prefer to only have anti-semitists in the collage, since, as you posted in your call to arms, you "guess Germans have a thing for trying to make the Jewish ethnicity not exist", and think that there "may be something in [their] genes". I am seriously beginning to question your motives. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 15:04, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The article refers to Germans as ethnicity, and since your latest edit, as a nationality, but the fact is, when the article talks about the history of Germans it talks about the history of the German ethnicity which Jews have little to do with. Even if we do it as an article about only a nationality, then it would be fair to include a Turk (for the sake of representation). Another thing is, there were quotes brought in this discussion showing that Einstein did not want to be a German citizen and he didn't like Germany as a countrry nor Germans as a people, so I think Einstein should be removed no matter how we look at the article. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

And I totally agree with you, a German or Turkish origin would be great, and Einstein should be left out. Yes, the article also touches on German as an ethicity (and we have differing views on what that means), but it also talks about things like cinema, sport, and science that are clearly linked to Germans as nation. The article is not about people of German ancestry only. Anyway, it had the word 'nation' in it until someone removed it. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I would definitely support taking out Einstein and putting someone Turkish instead because then it will really show the images are chosen on a national principle, since today Turkish are the second biggest ethnic group in Germany after Germans! It was weird when IIIraute was speaking against putting a Turk in on the top discussion, I don't want to think what needs to happen to them for him to finally admitt they are normal German citizens. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, they were German by nationality, which this article ezplicitly includes. LadyofShalott 14:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

• So is the compromise of Einstein out, Marx in, regardless of Einstein's nationality, acceptable to everyone then? If so please just confirm without saying things like 'but Marx should be out too' or 'but Einstein was 8th generation German!' to avoid stirring the pot again. Thanks. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 15:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

A "compromise...regardless of Einstein's nationality"?? Why this horse-trading? both stay, they were German nationals, what this article explicitly includes. --IIIraute (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll take that as a 'no' from Illraute, then... and I can't sway you with saying that from what he's written it looks like Einstein didn't like Germany much and probably wouldn't want to be in this collage? I guess you're right, what does he know, it's not like he's... oh, hang on, he is! Rainbowwrasse (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Does that mean we now have to establish a consensus for every person in the collage, whether they would "like" to be included - or maybe even ask the ones that are still alive, or actually make a decision on the fact that they are/were German nationals? Either we do include assimilated German Jews who were/are German nationals, or we don't. We do need a clear line - no musical request programme, no horse-trading! --IIIraute (talk) 16:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No, but since we already know the views of the individual in question, I frankly can't see the harm in respecting them. We would still have a German Jew (Marx) anyway, so it's not a blanket ban on German Jews or something. We don't need them all on there. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you please provide some WP:RS on the claim that he did not want to be seen as a German-born theoretical physicist, i.e. German national. Because that's what he was for most of his life - the second time by choice! → Albert Einstein. And I am not talking about considering himself an "ethnic" German. --IIIraute (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Iblardi already gave one. Rosenkranz (2011) p.75: I am neither a German citizen nor is there anything in me that can be described as “Jewish faith.” Also he formally renounced his German citizenship immediately upon landing in Antwerp on 28 March 1933. Einstein was German-born the second time by choice? When I'm born the second time, I'll choose to be Qatari! :o) Rainbowwrasse (talk) 18:26, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the "choice" did refer to "German national". He was a German national for most of his life, the second time by choice. A German-born theoretical physicist he stayed his whole life. And that's why he belongs here. --IIIraute (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I was obviously being flippant about the birth thing. However, he was Swiss for most of his life, not German. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 18:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

...yes, obviously. He still was a German national for most of his life, i.e. his lifespan! - I didn't know we had a competition going on... sigh! --IIIraute (talk) 19:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

We don't, but it seems to me that he was a Swiss national for over 50 years (until his death), but was a German for less than 40. I think this is an important point here. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

@Illraute: A. Calaprice's The Ultimate Quotable Einstein (2011, with references) has a citation from a 1929 interview in which Einstein is asked if he considers himself a German or a Jew that seems to speak in favour of your position:

"It is possible to be both. I look upon myself as a person. Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." (p. 324).

However, some of his later utterances show that he had not wanted to be a German citizen:

"The overemphasized military mentality in the German state was alien to me even as a boy. When my father moved to Italy, he tooks steps, at my request, to have me released from German citizenship because I wanted to become a Swiss citizen" (1933; p. 164); "In 1919 the Academy urged me to accept German citizenship in addition to my Swiss one. I was stupid enough to give in" (1938; p. 168).

His attitude towards Germany and the Germans appears to have radicalized during the war:

"The Germans as an entire people are responsible for these mass murders and must be punished as a people..." (1944; p. 168); "Since the Germans massacred my Jewish brethren ... I will have nothing further to do with Germans, including a relatively harmless academy" (1946; p. 169); "After the mass murders that the Germans committed ... it should be evident that a self-respecting Jew does not want to be associated with any official German event. My membership in the Orden pour le mérite is therefore out of te question" (1951; p. 170).

Interestingly, p. 174 has a quote from 1926 in which Einstein criticizes the usage of "a great <fill in any nationality>", saying that nationality or the environment in which "great men" were brought up should not be taken into account (presumably as a factor of their greatness).[24] Iblardi (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the quotes! I believe those quotes are more then enough to remove Einstein from the infobox! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 20:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Ilbardi, for finding these quotes. I must say I'm a little shocked at "The Germans as an entire people are responsible...", but they thoroughly prove the point. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It still does not change the fact that he was a German national for most of his life, and also did consider himself to be German, at least till 1930.--IIIraute (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Illraute, you asked for references to support the claim that Einstein rejected to be identified as a German, and these have been given. Ilbardi found some excellent references, why did you ask for them if now you just reject them out of hand? Anyway, he was a German national only for just over half of his life (having been 'stupid enough to accept' it the second time round), not most of it. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

...because he did not reject to be identified as a German for a very long time of his life. He even chose to return to Germany, although maybe later he did regret it, but not at the very time. He did choose to receive the Nobel Price as a German laureate. --IIIraute (talk) 21:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

All those stuff don't make him ethnically German, and even though he recieved it as a person from Germany, what else could he do? What you say doesnt make sense with the topic. You need to be desparate and with little self respect to insist on a person to be in the image which doesnt want to be there. Bobby Fischer was ethnically Jewish, but I don't see Jews putting his picture in articles about Jews simply because they have enough self respect not to put someone who wouldn't want to be in it. Einstein didn't like Germany or Germans, he was ethnically Jewish and he got rid of his German citizenship, those are facts. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

No, they were not Germans by ethnicity, they were Jews. Remove both---Tritomex (talk) 19:23, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

But it makes him a German National - the second time clearly voluntarily. "What else could he do?" No one forced Einstein to take German citizenship again in 1914, to become director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (1914–1932), professor at the Humboldt University of Berlin, a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, or president of the German Physical Society. He did choose to become a German national - and that's a fact. For someone who did not want to be associated with Germany, and who did not like Germans, to make all those moves, and let himself be celebrated as a German Nobel Price laureate... now that would be of very low, and very opportunistic self-respect. Urgh! --IIIraute (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Remove both Einstein and Marx. They were not ethnically Jewish, not German. They are two separate ethnic groups and it is foolish to conflate them together, simply because they were born in the same country.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Rainbowrasse, you do not have consensus for revising the intro of the article, thus broadening its scope. You are well aware that there are numerous people in here who disagree. Wait until you get consensus, and then make your change. Never mind the fact that it was obviously done just so Einstein and Marx would be allowed to stay, even though they aren't part of the German nation either.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I did not need consensus to change the lede as I was only recreating the scope of the article as it was when the collage was inserted. At some point (19 April 2011, I think), the reference to 'nation' was removed in an unexplained edit. Anyway, nobody here complained about restoring it to the original version until you came along and changed it, so clearly there was consensus for my restoration. I think that from your point of view your change made the situation worse, as now Marx and Einstein are presented as ethnic Germans (by your criteria), which you oppose. To clarify, in case you missed it in this disussion, I have no interest in Einstein being included and have argued against it, so your accusation that I "obviously" changed it to be able to include him is utterly baseless. Aside from that fact, it really, really is beyond any doubt whatsoever that both Einstein and Marx were German nationals, there really is no way you can possibly argue that away. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The things is the content of the article itself talks about the history of Germans as an ethnicity and it has little to do with the Jewish history, Jews from Germany don't represent what's in the article. I think both should be removed but while I understand the logic in keeping Marx (though don't agree with it, I think he should be removed to), Einstein should definitely be removed. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 08:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

We are largely in agreement then. Still, I do not think the article refers only to Gemans by descent, but also treats them as a nation (apart from my previous arguments for this: "Legally, Germans are citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany.", "...the total number of Germans worldwide lies between 66 and 160 million, depending on the criteria applied (native speakers, single-ancestry ethnic Germans, partial German ancestry, etc.)". I therefore suggest restoring the original mention of 'nation' to the article. This would also alleviate your uneasiness about Marx (Einstein stays out), as he was and has always considered himself a German national. You know that I do not agree with you on what constitutes an ethnic group, but that problem does not really belong in this thread. If you like we can discuss this on my talk page. Rainbowwrasse (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, if we say the article is based on nationality and there is only one non German ethnic group represented in it (Jews in the fact of Marx) it's a bit weird, if we will put someone Turkish instead of Einstein then it would be clear that it's really based on nationaloty and it will be fine, because then really we could say the images are chosen on a national idea. Turkish are the second biggest ethnic group in Germany after Germans and it's a growing one so I think they deserve one representative. I'm glad we agree about Einstein! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 14:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Remove Einstein from the infobox: Wasn't German by ethnicity and didn't see himself one. Was (with emphasize on past tense during his lifetime as well)German by nationality but revoked his citizenship with no intent to ever reclaim it. If this infobox is indeed about nationality then 1. make it clear in the article itself. 2. include high profile Germans of other ethnicities (Turkish, Afro-Germans and etc). Otherwise this infobox is misleading and serve nationalistic feeling and not encyclopedic values. P.S. who removed my previous comments hereand by what authority? --Gilisa (talk) 16:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of few of my comments without authority from the

Someone remove few of my comments (with very strong arguments for the exclusion of Einstein from the infobox) without having any permission -here is one example [25]for comment by me that was deleted. I understand that you been left without any good answer, but this way of action by itself is sufficient for AN/I case-which I prefer to avoid. Before going to that, I'm calling the one who did it to restore my comments on the TP and avoid further attempts to sabotage the discussion.--Gilisa (talk) 16:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It was your own "Brethren" Guitar hero on the roof → [26] So watch out, before you accuse other editors of "sabotage"! --IIIraute (talk) 16:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)