Template talk:Same-sex unions

Merida

In the state of Merida, there are some indications of recognition of same-sex marriages. The relevant page gives three publications: The info however indicates is from two bloglike-sources and from a publication (the first) that cites 1 person that claims it is the case. Now I am not saying that those unions are not recognized, but would like to have additional publications that we can consider reliable sources before we decide if we can add it (and I have tehrefore reverted). L.tak (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

These websites indicates that in Merida there are civil unions, not same-sex marriages. This situation is already covered in the template (in "Civil unions and registered partnerships"). Paucazorla (talk) 05:33, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

New tribe in US, how do we include?

Given announcements, it is quite likely that the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians will approve marriage equality by the end of the month. Any ideas how to include that in the list? Note, this isn't the entire Odawa nation... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naraht (talk • contribs)

Brr, long name... I don't like abbreviations here (noone knows LTBBOI I guess), but we could say: "Odawa (in part)". Would that be a solution? L.tak (talk) 11:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. From what I gathered at Odawa people, there are eight other bands. I think even "in part" doesn't do enough to dispel the false impression. I'm not sure I like LTBBOI, but it is really one of only two alternatives I see. The other is to deploy the "X tribes" earlier than we expected. After all, the point of that is space, not number included. -Rrius (talk) 11:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You have a point... No problem moving in the "X Tribes" system already when (if?) the Little Traverse Bay Bands finalize their process as an alternative indeed... L.tak (talk) 12:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm good with either solution, but I prefer the "X Tribes". OTOH, I think we'll get to the point where keeping track of the count is going to get difficult (more difficult than the states), when we get to more than 20 or 30 tribes, we may have to simply go to "Some Tribes". The link will of course be to Same-sex marriage under United States tribal jurisdictions.Naraht (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

New Zealand

Someone added New Zealand, but NZ isn't there yet. For NZ, we need it pass the third reading and then the signature of the Governor General Right?Naraht (talk) 10:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Correct. They're saying it could happen as soon as next month. Once the third reading has passed the Royal Assent is assured - the Governor General doesn't have the actual power to veto bills - but I think promulgation of the act is the "bright line" we can use for deciding when to add to this template. - htonl (talk) 11:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It seems somewhere along the way it was decided that it is the bright line (see the "Inclusion criteria" on the template page). The example applies to England, but there is no reason to suspect New Zealand or Scotland or other similar jurisdictions would be treated any differently. -Rrius (talk) 11:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Definitely. I hadn't noticed that before. - htonl (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Why can't we just put 'New Zealand (Pending)' to indicate New Zealand's status? It looks odd without any reference to New Zealand at all. Also, I believe that a once a bill is passed by parliament it is effectively law, the Governor-General cannot veto it (I could be wrong though). It won't technically be law until four months after he signs it though.Cloventt (talk) 11:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

For clarity and simplicity, we wait until a bill becomes an act. Doing so is also in line with WP:CRYSTAL. -Rrius (talk) 12:12, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

CRYSTAL says we can add these things if the event is 'almost certain to take place'. Surely we can mention something about the NZ law change on the template, given that it is pretty much certain to take place? Cloventt (talk) 04:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

So we wait for the GG, but not the 4 months until SSM can occur, right?Naraht (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes - once signed by the Governor-General, it's got Royal Assent, and is therefore part of the law of NZ; and would require a separate Act to repeal it, even if it doesn't come into effect immediately upon receiving Royal Assent. Acts usually state in (or close to) the last section when they are effective from, so after it's received Royal Assent we would do something similar to how we handled Maine, Maryland and Washington State during November/December 2012: see here, particularly the bit "†Note: Law not yet in effect". --Redrose64 (talk) 19:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

As my suggestion below, I propose we add a 'To be legalized' or a 'soon to come legal/in effect' section, this would show it in the most accurate way in my opinion. CH7i5 (talk) 21:47, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, given that this template is present on so many pages it would be sensible to let it reflect that legislature is changing in many jurisdictions.Cloventt (talk) 04:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I think a "pending" section would be useful, but would it include Nepal? — kwami (talk) 06:56, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I would not as Nepal to a 'Pending' (or 'pending, soon to be legal'?) section as the article for Same-sex marriage in Nepal says that "....the future of same-sex marriage is uncertain.". At the current point in time I would only add New Zealand, Uruguay and Colombia (who's high court has ruled, it will become legal this year).CH7i5 (talk) 14:09, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

See below on Colombia, a "Civil Union" with rights equal to marriage will fulfill the court's requirement, so not guaranteed.Naraht (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok then, we won't include Colombia in a 'Pending' section. It would just be New Zealand and Uruguay, but this would portray the current situations in the most accurate way CH7i5 (talk) 14:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I am in favour of a bright line here. We already have a two-step system (the normal situation and the "not yet in force"), and making a third step would give rise to many more discussions of states where the last part of the legislative process is deemed by some to have already reached (Nepal, France after first reading in both houses, or after vote on article 1 of the bill). That would only lead to more discussion. We could however change the "bright line" abit by adding countries like New Zealand after parliamentory approval with the "not yet in force" note if we have reliable sources that royal assent is never (never ever...) not granted the royal assent is thus merely a royal promulgation... I am not a fan of this (I always thought roayl assent in Belgium was an automatism, until the King years ago simply refused to sign an abortion act, so you never truly know if something is merely ceremonial), but could live with it as a compromise (which seems to be safely applicable to New Zealand at least)... L.tak (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

IMO, the situations in Uruguay and New Zealand are not identical because all that we have in regards to it becoming law in Uruguay is the President's word as opposed to the situation with the Royal Assent which isn't really the free choice. Now once both are signed by the appropriate person, they are identical to Maryland in December 2013 where it was the Law that it would start on a given day.Naraht (talk) 15:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Except that the Government could advise the GG to withhold assent, so we only have John Key's word. And Parliament could vote to reconsider the vote by which it passed the bill. The bright line makes sense; we have used it for US states where the governor was the driving force behind passage of the bill (Cuomo for marriage in NY, Quinn for civil unions in Ill.), we have followed the rule for other parliamentary democracies; we agreed on how we would handle Westminster countries in particular, we have held firm against understandable impatience in the past, so why suddenly change now? -Rrius (talk) 20:48, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

So adding a 'pending' notice might not be sensible, but after the law is signed there is a four month to-the-day delay until the law comes into force. Are we going to add NZ once the GG signs or the law, or four months after then? If we are adding it after he signs it, then surely we should temporarily indicate that the government doesn't yet actually recognize the marriage because of the delay. Cloventt (talk) 22:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Federally recognized tribes

It looks like sometime this week, we'll got from 2 to 3 federally recognized tribes allowing SSM. There are a total of 566 Federally recognized tribes. At some point we are simply going to have to point to Same-sex marriage under United States tribal jurisdictions (which itself will have to be reorganized into allows/prohibits, I think). I'm not even sure that a Grand Slam win for the SSM side at the Supreme Court will force all of the tribes to allow Same Sex Marriage, but I don't know the law on the relationship between the tribes and the Federal Government.Naraht (talk) 10:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

above at Template_talk:Same-sex_unions#Indian_reservations, there was a recent discussion on this topic. How do you feel about that outcome? L.tak (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Missed that one, I agree, only change to outcome is that the link for the tribes should be to Same-sex marriage under United States tribal jurisdictions, I don't think the list of states page includes this.Naraht (talk) 13:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Brazil issue (and eventually US?)

I just added back in Mato Grosso do Sul (with ref on the Brazil page). Right now out of the 27 state level units (26 states plus the District Federal), Same-sex marriages are legal in 9 states and the DF. This means we are only 4 states away from the list of those that *do* be longer than those that don't. At some point we should switch to "Brazil: All but RO, RR" or something similar, I guess.Naraht (talk) 03:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I think at some point the answer will be to say "Brazil: DF and X of 26 states", with the "X of 26 states" linked to a section list we create at Recognition of same-sex unions in Brazil. But I don't think we need to worry about more or less than half. I think we can hold out until there are just a handful of non-recognizing states left. The conclusion we came to for the US was 25 to 30 just on the basis of the list becoming too long. Perhaps 20ish will work for Brazil. Of course, the federal government may obviate the need by establishing SSM nationwide. -Rrius (talk) 03:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Uruguay

I'm fine with the change for Uruguay. The location of Urugay in this template hasn't changed, but the actual name of the article has. In that regard, this is just eliminating a redirect in the template which is standard.Naraht (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

In the sidebar, should the Netherlands be listed as a complete country?

I have moved this discussion here from Talk:Status of same-sex marriage... L.tak (talk) 09:07, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The Netherlands is just one jurisdiction within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. In the sidebar, the Netherlands should be moved down to the section "Performed in some jurisdictions" and listed as "Netherlands: Netherlands." The way it is currently would be like listing England as its own country.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.235.239 (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It is considered its own country, even though it is part of a larger sovereign state. If England legalizes it, England would be listed as a country as well. Teammm ^talk
_email 03:28, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Why would England be listed as its own country? England is not a sovereign country, it is a constituency of the United Kingdom. The current marriage equality law being debated in the UK covers only England and Wales, so will these be listed as two separate countries? 72.92.235.239 (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes they will be. They are separate countries. Just because they are part of a larger political state doesn't mean they aren't countries. England, Wales, and Scotland are three separate countries that make up Great Britain. Teammm ^talk
_email 05:33, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about this. US states are separate sovereigns, so if anything, they have a stronger claim to being listed individually on the top list as opposed to "performed in some jurisdictions". We don't use the word "country" anymore to describe individual states, but in a legal sense they are just as much countries, if not more, than England and Wales and the Netherlands. More to the point, it is not England through some English legislature adopting same-sex marriage for itself: it will be the UK Parliament, consisting of MPs from all four constituent countries, adopting it for the legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. It is more equivalent to Illinois adopting same-sex marriage for Cook County than Sweden adopting same-sex marriage, and certainly more equivalent to Illinois adopting it than Sweden doing so. It would be bizarre to list England and Wales, together or separately, in the top list when clearly the case will be same-sex marriages "performed in some jurisdictions" of the UK.

As regards the Netherlands, the Kingdom seems to have a much more limited role than the US federal government does or the UK does with respect to devolved countries. The strongest argument for retaining the Netherlands at its current place on the list is that it would just look weird or take up too much space to say "Kingdom of the Netherlands: Neth." Legally, it is a "performed in some jurisdictions" case, but I can stomach ignoring it. For England and Wales, it just doesn't make sense to do so. -Rrius (talk) 09:39, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not specified in the template what the first entries are - we can assume that countries are meant, because countries are listed and the Netherlands are a (constituent) country, unlike, say, New Hampshire, so the list seems fine. Let's discuss the UK once legalization happens, I haven't seen dates for that. Hekerui (talk) 09:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Except that the word "state" is synonymous with "country" in the sense we are talking about. Americans even spoke of their states as their countries up until the Civil War, and some even after that. US states have sovereignty that comes directly from the people, unlike the constituent countries of the United Kingdom. And "England and Wales" is not a constituent country at all. This is all to say that there is no legitimate basis for treating England and Wales more like an independent country than a US state by listing them on the top. The distinction between the places listed on the top and those listed under "performed in some jurisdictions" is clear: where marriages are performed in only some subparts of an independent state, they are listed in the latter group, and where it is performed in all subparts, it goes on the top list.

Incidentally, taking the decision to treat the parts of the UK as separate could cause a shit storm given that Scotland is set to vote on an independence referendum next year. The safe, measured and intelligent thing to do is to reflect reality, which is that these are separate jurisdictions of the United Kingdom, in some of which same-sex marriages will be performed and in others will not.

And this really is something we should decide now as it will probably not be too long before it is enacted and there is nothing to be gained by waiting. The bill isn't suddenly going to start covering Scotland and Northern Ireland as marriage is a devolved matter for them (but not Wales); we know every relevant thing about the bill there is to know, so there is nothing to support delay. -Rrius (talk) 10:15, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

England and Wales may be called "countries" but they are not sovereign independent countries, which is what one typically means by saying "country" (Just like internationally a "state" also can refer to a sovereign independent country, even though a "state" in the United States is not its own country). I think the reason some may not be able to "stomach" putting the Netherlands in the "Performed in some jurisdictions" category is that it would remove a country from the top list. For supporters of same-sex marriage (such as myself), it would be depressing to "lose" a country, but it is technically what is most accurate. The non-Dutch may think of the Netherlands as being only the European Netherlands, but Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten are constituent countries on equal footing with the Netherlands within the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

Another tricky problem will also arise when France legalizes same-sex marriage. The marriage bill will legalize marriage in all of France including her overseas departments which are fully part of France (like Hawaii is to the United States), hence it should be placed at the top. However, it will additionally legalize same-sex marriage in some, but not all, of her dependencies (Wallis and Futuna, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and the French Southern and Antarctic Lands, but not St. Pierre and Michelon, St. Barthelemy, St. Martin, and others). These must be noted, I suppose in the separate category of "Performed in some jurisdictions" under the header "French Dependencies." 72.92.235.239 (talk) 01:05, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Another option here would be to ditch the "performed in some jurisdiction" section or limit it to places like Brazil, where statewide judicial decisions are validating same-sex marriage even though marriage is an area of national competence. -Rrius (talk) 10:21, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not exactly sure how that would look like... Just ditch the header? L.tak (talk) 09:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Netherlands should be listed as a complete country, perhaps with a note. Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten are "equal constituent countries" only in theory. The Netherlands comprises 98,32% of population and 98,42% of land area.--В и к и T 08:13, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with many here that only formally Aruba (the Statute) et al are on the same level as Netherlands. However, in many cases the Kingdom of the Netherlands coincides with the country (the Minister of foreign affairs of the Netherlands is authomatically minister of foreign affairs of the Kingdom; ministers sign on behalf of the Kingdom etc; approval law for treaties are approved by the Kingdom), while Aruba et al are de facto dependent territories (like British Virgin Islands) for which the Netherlands is responsible in certain manners. I prefer to be very clear on that in treaties/law based settings, but take a practical approach in a template like these and do what is intuitively right (and defendable, though not formally correct) and that is keeping Netherlands as a country in the top bar. We do the same in the European Union (officially: the Kingdom is a member with all its nationals; but territorially onlyas far as the European Netherlands are concerned) where we simply say that the Netherlands is a member... L.tak (talk) 09:53, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

So what would happen if Aruba legalized same-sex marriage (not likely to happen, but still)? Would you list it at the top as a fully sovereign country? Saying that European Netherlands is a complete country because it makes up 98% of the land area puts Wikipedia in an odd spot. Is Wikipedia in a position to classify what are legally full constituencies of a nation as mere "de facto dependencies" based purely on personal opinion? This also conflicts with Wikipedia's list of sovereign states, where the Netherlands (const. country) is not listed as a sovereign state, but a constituency under the Netherlands (kingdom) with Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten. If Wikipedia is now in the business of creating its own sovereign states, this list must be updated to reflect the Netherlands (const. country)' newfound independence from Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten. 72.92.235.239 (talk) 20:27, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

What I am trying to say is that it isn't a black-or-white case where one can be fully "right" or "wrong". The Netherlands can easily sign a treaty (not ratify it), and then Aruba et al are also bound by the provision to "refrain from action that would defeit the purpose of the treaty" according to the Vienna convention; while Aruba can not do that with any effect to NL... thus the Netherlands acts "impersonating" the Kingdom, while Aruba does not... That is why I suggested a pragmatic approach, knowing that the link is one click away... If Aruba legalized... we'd have to think again; for me it might tip the balance to maybe using Netherlands, with an inline link to Kingdom of the Netherlands with either Aruba below it; or Netherlands and Aruba below it; or a note "except Sint maarten and Curacao". Furthermore, I didn't invent that treatment as "de facto dependencies"; also organizations like HCCH (here; click on the "2" at Netherlands) and ILO make a difference between the European NL and the non metropolitan territories the convention can be "extended" to (http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---relconf/documents/meetingdocument/wcms_176149.pdf p17]). L.tak (talk) 20:57, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, this would be simpler if we just got rid of the distinction. If a jurisdiction has the right to make marriage law for itself, it should go on the top list. If the problem is a fear of eventually having dozens of US and Brazilian Mexican states listed, then they can be dealt with differently, but trying to force the UK and the Netherlands through this "performed in some jurisdictions" rubric is obviously problematic. -Rrius (talk) 12:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC), edited 12:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not opposed to this; but have indeed the feir for the US, Brazilian and Mexican situation getting too extensive. We can anyway get rid of the sentence "performed in some jurisdictions" as that is clear from context. For the UK, we coud put it in the "country" list: "England and Wales", and after Schotland legalizes put: "UK (except Northern Ireland)". The argument would then be that those are all very well known entities amaking up a very large portioan of land; and thus do not per se need a sovereign state to be recognizable. L.tak (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea - it could look something like this. - htonl (talk) 14:12, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Legal recognition of same-sex relationships
Marriage Argentina Belgium Brazil (2 states) Canada Denmark Iceland Mexico (2 states) Netherlands Norway Portugal South Africa Spain Sweden United States   (DC+9 states, 3 tribes) etc...

I like it, except that I think we should spell out United States. I've changed the proposed table to show how it could be done. I've also put the parentheticals in small tags I think it looks better, but we'll see what you all think. If we do abbreviate, we should use the more common "US". Perhaps refactoring to "2 Mexican states" and "10 US states". We could also list the states individually for now and implement an "X states" when it reaches 25ish as discussed in a prior section. -Rrius (talk) 14:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I like this version, quite nice. I'm tempted to suggest "10 of 29 states" instead of "10 states", but perhaps that's just a bit too much. Great either way. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

So we are dropping the tribal juristictions in this idea?Naraht (talk) 16:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Humph. DC also gets left out. Hmm. --j⚛e decker^talk 19:37, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

"(10 states +)" then? I mean, it's a small template and we're trying to reflect a lot of information; some simplification is inevitably going to happen. - htonl (talk) 19:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

We should treat Washington DC in the USA the same way that the District Federal is treated in Mexico, right? Then Mexico would be (1 state +).Naraht (talk) 20:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Excellent catch! We could go with "(11 states)‡" and "(2 states)‡", and a footnote signifying that the figures include DC in the US and DF in Mexico. Given the limited space, absolute precision about the meaning of state probably isn't necessary (especially since, in the US at least, statutes and other parts of officialdom will include DC as a state for convenience). -Rrius (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd be good with the footnote and/or the +, something like that. --j⚛e decker^talk 04:27, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

What we need is a better-known synonym of "polity". — kwami (talk) 06:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd much prefer 10 States+ rather than counting DC as a state. If Mexico treats its federal district as a state on equal footing with all the other states, then by all means count it as such. But DC is not a state, and we also need to designate the existence of tribal jurisdictions which are also not states. 72.92.235.239 (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Nope, not a state. While not exact, DF's relationship with the 31 states of Mexico seems closer to DC's relationship with the 50 states of the US. (See Federal District (Mexico)#Political structure) Naraht (talk) 14:25, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The term state is bound to give problems (tribal, dc, what if Catalonia; a state according to the Spanish consitution). I prefer to keep the individual states als long as we can handle it (as is the case now), but am ok with listing with "10 xxx" etc; especially in view of the increased stability it might give. Could the xxx be: "13 jurisdictions", or for shortening: "3 Jur.^# with a note ^#Jurisdictions (states, provinces, tribal jurisdictions etc where same sex marriage is legal)? L.tak (talk) 15:06, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, DC is treated as a state for countless purposes, and a footnote is enough to flag it up. Lumping tribes in to a single "jurisdictions" category is problematic because the few people in the US and almost no one outside the US are even aware that there is such a thing as tribal marriage law; doing so is far more likely to cause confusion than the ‡ solution, especially as there will only ever be one DC with SSM, but the tribal numbers could continue to grow. And the proposed footnote really doesn't help much since it doesn't actually say "US numbers include tribal jurisdictions"—it only says that where we use that word, it means states, provinces, tribal jurisdictions, etc, only some of which might apply to any given use of the word "jurisdiction". Saying "11 states‡, 3 tribes" is better than lumping them all together. The problem with saying " + DC" is that it takes too many characters to say it, which is problematic given the limited space available. The best alternative I see is "DC+10 states", which cuts out two spaces. It doesn't look as clean as "11 states‡, 3 tribes", but it still fits (I've edited the table above to show what it would look like).

Another thing we haven't discussed is whether we should just list each jurisdiction. Brazil could only ever contribute 26 states, and since marriage is a federal issue, it is likely to be resolved on a nationwide basis before we reach that point. Should the US Supreme Court, now or down the line, hold bans on SSM unconstitutional, I think we could also just say "United States". In the meantime, adding the current 10 states and DC is not a big deal. Even if all of the states debating SSM bills this year enact them, we would still be looking at adding seven items to each column of the main list; I submit that isn't excessive. If we reach a point in a few years where 30 or 40 states have enacted SSM, we could revisit the issue. Since the likely complaint would be that the template is too long on the various pages it is transcluded on, the obvious solution would be to collapse the marriage section just as we collapse the other sections. Given that the status quo tends to show a preference, it might be advisable to just do that now anyway. -Rrius (talk) 20:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Order by State or by State abbreviation?

If Indiana and Iowa both had SSM, would we list them as [[Same Sex marriage in Indiana|IN]], [[Same Sex marriage in Iowa|IA]] or the other way around? I would think we would put Iowa First given that IA would come before IN. (There was a recent flip-flop in the Brazilian States like this, but Iowa and Indiana are easier for me to type. )Naraht (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. As I see it, we are listing states, not abbreviations, so the state that comes first alphabetically should come first in the list. This discussion may become academic if we see a change result from the section above. -Rrius (talk) 21:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to add section to infobox

In the info box there is currently 'Marriage', 'performed in some jurisdictions' and 'recognized, not performed'. I propose adding a fourth along the lines of 'To be legalized', as I believe three country will, so far, be legalizing SSM this year. Uruguay and New Zealand, where it has been passed and waiting approval from the head of state and Colombia where the high court has ruled SSM will become legal automatically on 20 June 2013. This will show clearly the current position held by the various countries. CH7i5 (talk) 21:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

See my post at #New Zealand above, particularly the bit about Maine, Maryland and Washington State. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:38, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Colombia

As alluded to in the previous section, Colombia's Constitutional Court ruled last year that Congress must enact a same-sex marriage law or it will automatically become the law of the land on 20 June. So should we list it? It seems to me this is the equivalent of a statute that has a future effective date, and we have listed those. -Rrius (talk) 23:51, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The Court obliged the Congres to pass legislation giving same-sex couples similar rights to marriage. See [1], [2] Ron 1987 (talk) 00:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

So if Columbia passes a law a "Civil Union" law that gives Gays with a Civil Union equal to that of a heterosexual marriage, then they will have satisfied the Court's Ruling without having SSM in Colombia, right?Naraht (talk) 00:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Ron 1987 (talk) 00:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Then I am opposed to listing it, there just seem like too many ways that it might not happen.Naraht (talk) 02:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah, whatever I read didn't have its facts straight then. We shall see what happens. -Rrius (talk) 02:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Add New Zealand to this list

Can someone please update this template and add NZ to the list of countries where same-sex marriage is legal? NZ parliament has passed same-sex marriage law by 77 votes out of total 121 votes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.22.33.76 (talk) 15:48, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

We are waiting for the Governor-General to grant Royal Assent. That is when it actually becomes a law. - htonl (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Just so; see also #New Zealand. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

GG approved, it has been added.Naraht (talk) 02:36, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Brazil - Added Rio de Janeiro

The state of Rio de Janeiro (RJ) got added and based on http://www.towleroad.com/2013/04/rio-de-janeiro-becomes-latest-brazilian-state-to-allow-gay-marriage.html , which in turn links to http://mixbrasil.uol.com.br/pride/pride/estado-do-rio-de-janeiro-autoriza-casamento-gay.html (my company considers the second URL to be porn, so I can't look at it) and http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/rio-de-janeiro-state-legalizes-gay-marriage190413. And the list of ones that have already done it matches the one on wikipedia. We are up to 10 states +DF.Naraht (talk) 19:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

• http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/04/19/brazil-court-rules-that-gay-couples-can-marry-in-rio-de-janeiro-state/ --Redrose64 (talk) 20:54, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Recognition of same-sex unions in Brazil#Rio de Janeiro. Ron 1987 (talk) 21:22, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

France

Parliament just approved the marriage bill. The opposition party already announced its intention to challenge it to the Constitutional Council. Council will have a month to review it. If the challenge is rejected, the bill will go to the president. See article 61 of the French constitution and BBC article. Ron 1987 (talk) 15:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Could someone please mark France with the 'not yet in effect' mark that New Zealand has, in the top part of the box — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.159.89 (talk) 15:39, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

France is a case where it has not been signed into Law (Either the constitutional court or the President could reject it), so it shouldn't be in the list. New Zealand has been signed into law, it just hasn't taken effect yet.Naraht (talk) 16:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

How many days they have to submit the marriage bill to Constitutional Council?--В и к и T 16:25, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Don't know. But I have found ‘Vive la France!’ as campaigners celebrate equal marriage victory as follow up to French Parliament passes same-sex marriage and adoption in final vote. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

They have submitted it today.(http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=hr&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.ump-senat.fr/IMG/pdf/saisine_conseil_constitutionnel_mariage_pour_tous.pdf&usg=ALkJrhh_20U1QeUgG_7ZcmgLIN8pVJnOww google translate).--В и к и T 19:14, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Rhode Island....

Should we pre-emptively add the "Don't add Rhode Island until it is signed by the governor" comment inside the template, or wait until the first user adds Rhode Island?Naraht (talk) 11:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd wait. Judging by this story, it needs the Senate's amendments to be voted through by the House, and then the Gov's sig (which is unlikely to be withheld), so it's probably a matter of only a few days. Then, it can go up with a † like we did last November (see my comments at #New Zealand above). Next: Delaware! --Redrose64 (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought the same thing about Uruguay. :(Naraht (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Brazilian State - What does it mean to be in the list...

What does it mean for a Brazilian State to be in the list? (I know these aren't mutually exclusive)

1. All Government officials in the state that register(?)/perform(?)/(?) a marriage in the state *must* be equally willing to marry a same sex couple as an opposite sex couple
2. Some Government officials in the the state that register(?)/perform(?)/(?) a marriage in the state *can* marry a same sex couple? (And does the *can* vary from official to official or by municipality?)
3. The State government treats a same sex couple married elsewhere in Brazil the same way that they treat an opposite sex couple
4. The State government will upgrade a civil union to a marriage if the couple asks
5. The State government automatically upgrades a civil union to a marriage
6. Something else?

Naraht (talk) 14:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The answer is (6). The template page carries the following notice: "For states in Brazil, we include same-sex marriages only if there is a formal judicial decision holding that same-sex marriages should be accepted in the same way as opposite-sex marriages." Specifically, this means that the court has ordered the officials who register marriages to do so with respect to same-sex couples as they do for opposite-sex couples. -Rrius (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

How is your (6) different than (1)?Naraht (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Your (1) was too unclear to validate. -Rrius (talk) 05:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

• Just to people get things right. As in Mexico, (3) is reality nationwide (DOMA-like legislation would easily get vetoed here, Dilma and the Worker's Party may be disingenuous on being truly left-wing and play the hardies over the most polemic social issues but not to such mad extent; I hope PSDB doesn't try to please religious people and their prejudices again in the 2014 elections [that will be my first!], and if they do, they don't win). Unlike in any other country, (2) is reality nationwide. It may vary from official to official AND from municipality to municipality. As for (4), state governments don't marry people, but the first gay couple to be granted cohabitation rights had their marriage canceled by an Evangelical judge in Goiás had it validated again in Rio de Janeiro city, a place where they didn't live, a year or two ago.
  
  (5)... is truly complex. Since it was decided in 2011 that we have the same rights to civil union-like cohabitation policy (união estável, stable union, means a couple with x time of cohabitation is entitled to a majority of the rights married couples have, including adopting children together, that is why Brazil is colored sky blue in LGBT rights maps even if we have no "civil union" or anything like that) as different-sex couples, and it is available for them in the whole country, I don't think they will revoke this because it established "civil-uniony cohabitation equality", so it seems to not be the case. By what I understood in the new reading the Corregedorias Gerais de Justiça of some states have granted, it just meant that a couple going to a notary's office asking for the issuing of a cohabitation certificate would instead be granted with marriage as any other.
  
  Why fluminenses (i.e. natives/citizens of the state of RJ) still didn't got it statewide if people understand that the ultimate goal is full marriage equality? A wild theory appears! It would be risky for just the Judicial power to give a full period in such important debate when its amount of power is being contested in Brasília right now i.e. it won't, according to our Legislative power, overlook Chamber decision or previous legislation to the extent it supposedly often does anymore; especially in Rio de Janeiro, the Brazil's richer half state where conservative Christian politicians are most powerful and would prompt irritation of a very determined block (they are for the most part the big responsible for the freezing of our sexual orientation and gender identity anti-discrimination legislation addition to Constitutional Law, that needed major power of action and scope reduction to please them to a minimal extent) in an already tense environment there in the DF; I have just a guess that this is the reason why local Corregedorias de Justiça are running to pass it as legal in some states before what many fear happens, as we already saw in Uganda what Pentecostals are capable when they are determined of something. Lguipontes (talk) 09:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, to boil down what I believe you are saying (and I wish the article did it better) is that any judge in Brazil regardless of state may issue a same sex marriage certificate, but in the states listed in the template, a judge *has* to issue one. Is that correct? In that case, what happened in RJ?Naraht (talk) 10:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Any judge may issue a certificate. A city in the grey state of Minas Gerais became marine blue because their judge decided that same-sex marriages are supposed to be legally in the same standard of different-sex marriage, thus they now have marriage equality. In those marine blue places, people may marry in any local notary's office without the need of judge approval just as every any other kind of couple entitled to do so in Brazil in general, and places that don't offer in such rights may suffer legal action as discrimination.

In Rio de Janeiro, it will become much easier as people will only need 15 days for their enter be approved or not by a judge without the necessity of going to a court. After some time (probably somewhere in June and certainly not after July), the districts of same-sex-marriage-approving judges will have marriage equality while those with non-allowing judges won't. But then again, I think it will be possible for people living in different parts of the state go to a notary's office that isn't the jurisdiction responsible for them, have it there and it be legalized nationwide. Unlike in other states, notaries can't allow SSMs; only willing judges will do so, but for the population, it will require basically the same thing. And as MKleid said, "[m]arriage licenses in Brazil are issued in the name of the state. If a same sex couple can get a marriage license in the state of Rio de Janeiro without conditional approval by a judge in even one district, then it is a same sex marriage state, because the license isn't issued by the district." Lguipontes (talk) 13:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Brazil - all country

Today decision: CNJ determines gay marriage nationwide 177.32.170.225 (talk) 14:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)