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September 13, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
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January 1, 2008	Good article reassessment	Delisted
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Frequently asked questions

To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

Q1: Why does the Human article use the third person? Aren't we humans?

A1: The third person ("Humans are..." or "They are..." as opposed to "We are...") is simply the conventional mode of writing for Wikipedia and other reference works. We realize this may cause some phrases in Human to sound quite strange — "a majority of humans professes some variety of religious or spiritual belief" sounds almost like it was written by space aliens. However, the occasional strangeness this approach may lead to is still preferable to the alternative of inconsistency.

If we were to use "we" in the Human article, it would mean sometimes switching strangely between persons as we narrow our topic of discussion. For example, even if an editor were female, she would be forced to write things like "We humans, and especially those females...." Whenever a subgroup of humanity became the article's focus, we would need to switch to the third person; a sentence about humans would use "we", but a sentence about adults, Asians, engineers, or heterosexuals would need to use "they". It is far simpler to just consistently use the third person in all contexts, even if this doesn't always seem completely natural.

A related issue is the fact that, as a general rule, Wikipedia prefers to avoid self-references. In addition to being human, all editors on this site happen to be English speakers — yet we treat our article on the English language the same way we treat every other language article, in order to avoid bias and inconsistency. Likewise, we treat Wikipedia the same as other websites and reference tools. Analogously, we ought to aspire to treat Human in much the same way that we treat every other species article. Ideally, we should make exceptions of Human only where objective, verifiable facts demand that we make exceptions (e.g., in employing a lengthy behavior section). This is the simplest and easiest way to avoid bias and to prevent editorial disputes: When in doubt, follow the rest of Wikipedia's lead.

Q2: Aren't humans supposed to be purely herbivorous/frugivorous despite our modern omnivorous habits? Aren't we jungle apes albeit highly intelligent and largely furless jungle apes? Most jungle apes eat no meat or very little.

A2: No, we really are natural omnivores. Contrary to popular belief, we humans did not evolve in jungles. We actually evolved on open grasslands where fruit-bearing trees are nowhere near as plentiful as in the jungle, where most of our surviving close relatives evolved. Evolving in such a place, we would have always (for as long as we've been humans rather than Australopithecines and other even earlier fossilized genera) had to supplement our diet with meat in addition to plant material. We evolved also eating plant-derived foods to be sure; the Savannah (grassland) has some trees with edible fruit although comparatively few and far between, and grain-bearing grasses are far more plentiful there than any tree. (Some evidence suggests that the first bread and beer were made from these tropical grains long before recorded history.) Even so, the grassland being much less fruit-rich than the jungle caused us to evolve as true metabolic omnivores, not pure herbivores/frugivores. See the Archived Debates on this subtopic for source documents.

Q3: How was the lead image chosen?

A3: The current lead image was added on 15 September 2009 following this discussion and given this explanation. In short, an editor looked at commons:Category:Couples and picked one. Due to alphabetical sorting, this one came up early (the filename starts with "A"), so they picked it. They were looking for an adult couple standing side-by-side. The use of this image has been discussed many times over the years, including but not limited to: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. The current wording of this FAQ entry was decided following this discussion. See also our policy on photo galleries of people.

Q4: Is it possible for an infobox image to perfectly and accurately represent all of humanity?

A4: No.

Q5: Is it possible for the text of this article to perfectly and accurately represent all of humanity?

A5: No.

Q6: If we can't make a perfect representation, should we still try to make the best representation we can?

A6: Yes. Of course. Because Wikipedia is a work in progress.

Q7: How should the infobox image best represent humanity?

A7: The lead image should illustrate important features of the subject — in the case of Human, these include an upright bipedal gait, hands specialized for manipulating tools, and use of cultural products such as clothing.

Lead images can attempt to encapsulate the broad strokes of the diversity and variation in its subject (e.g. Frog, Primate). The current consensus is that attempting to do further like that for humanity is not practical. There is a guideline MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES that exists due to issues on this topic in the past, stating that we may not assemble a gallery of many images into the infobox.

And regardless of MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES, by picking just one image, we leave space for showing important details of that image which would be obscured if we shrank it in order to fit multiple photos in. Sometimes, what a collage gains in diversity, it loses in detail and clarity. In this case, the current consensus is that the topic covered at Human is best served with a single image — a collage of faces, for example, would fail to illustrate the human body.

Q8: Shouldn't the lead image show more major groups of humans?

A8: There is no good way to decide which groups of humans are the "major" ones. We currently just show an example of male and female, this is a middle ground that represents the current consensus: only show biological sex groups, not others. Showing further groups, such as along ethnic lines, is contentious and does not have consensus.

While many Wikipedia articles on diverse subject matter (e.g. Spider, Bird) do attempt to encapsulate that variety through galleries and selections of images, we are prohibited from doing so on this article per MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES even if we wanted to. Other articles on diverse subject matter sometimes similarly have few examples, or even one example, rather than a collage in their infobox (e.g. Whale).

Fortunately, this article is not called "humanity", but simply "human". We are fully justified in just picking some human off the street as an example, rather than getting wrapped up in unverifiable species-wide generalizations and categories. We have only taken one further reasonable step of showing a couple, one male and one female.

Q9: The current image is [blurry] / [low resolution] / [JPG artifacted], shouldn't it be replaced?

A9: The current consensus is that this isn't that big a deal. When viewed as normal at thumbnail size at a glance, you can't really tell.

Q10: The current image shows two people, not one. Doesn't that violate MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES to begin with?

A10: The current consensus is that group photos probably do not violate MOS:NOETHNICGALLERIES. That guideline is based on a RfC, and is to be interpreted narrowly. It specifically only prohibits galleries or photomontages to illustrate ethnic groups or other similarly large human populations. The consensus on this page is that a group photo does not count. Past discussion of this can be found here.

Q11: Could the lead image be a different photo? Perhaps a group photo with more than two people in it? Or a photo of an individual?

A11: There is nothing prohibiting that, it is just not the current consensus to do that on this page. It would likely take a large discussion and very strong arguments for why the alternate image is an improvement.

Q12: Other ethnic groups have lead images such as a flag or map (e.g. of population density). Could that be the lead image (instead of any image(s) of humans)?

A12: There is nothing prohibiting that, it is just not the current consensus to do that on this page. There already is a population density map at the bottom of the infobox.

Q13: Why isn't the lead image more abstract or symbolic?

A13: Because any attempt to symbolically or nonliterally depict humans will subtly express an editorial opinion about what the "essence" or "nature" of humanity is. Even if we pick a famous artist's work to put at the top of Human, the fact that we chose that particular work, and not another, will show that we endorse certain non-encyclopedic points of view about humanity. The only real way to avoid this pitfall is to not pick an image that is even remotely symbolic or nonliteral — a completely literal, straightforward photograph simply depicting a human, with no more "deep meaning" than our lead image for Brown bear has, is the most neutral option available.

It is also worth noting that most abstract depictions of humanity remove a great deal of visual information. Wikipedia's purpose is educational, and our readers include non-native English speakers, young children, neurodivergent people, and other readers who will be best served by a clear, unambiguous, and factually rich depiction of the topic at hand.

Imaginative works also tend to be much more subjective and idiosyncratic than photographs, reflecting the creator's state of mind as much as the subject matter itself. The purpose of an article's lead image is to accurately depict the article's subject matter, which in this case means accurately depicting a human.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

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Population density

I think that a map of the human population density could be put along with (or in the place of) the map of human range. It seems to be more informative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.136.207.220 (talk) 16:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Living or extant?

Regarding this well-intentioned change, while the meaning remains reasonably clear, the words are not quite synonymous (and in fact do not appear in each other's entry in either of my thesauri). Extant, meaning "surviving" or "still in existence" (my emphasis, obviously), carries the implication that other, comparable species have become extinct. It is a word that's frequently used in reference to species, and I don't think it's esoteric in the least. (I'm pretty sure I first encountered it in primary school.) While it's often a good idea to avoid a ten-dollar word when a ten-cent word will do, the downside of simplifying any article's vocabulary too much is that it eliminates opportunities for learning. Carry that to its logical conclusion and we're left not only with dumbed-down articles but dumbed-down readers. If this were the Simple English Wikipedia, I wouldn't object. Since it's not, how about restoring extant along with a nice interwiki link to the precise word in Wiktionary? Rivertorch (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Noting that another editor has reverted to extant) How about the Wiktionary link? Does anyone else think that might be helpful? Rivertorch (talk) 23:34, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure the change was made in good faith but, as you say, there is a subtle difference in meaning between 'living' and 'extant' which you have explained above. As another example of the difference in meaning we can have extant types of rock for example although these are not living. Another way to describe the word is as the opposite of 'extinct', which is not quite the same as 'dead'. I would have no objection to the wictionary link. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Rivertorch (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

humans are primates?

I disagree with the first sentence. For over 500,000 years we have struggled to answer this question. Saying that we are primates negates all of that. It's a scientific opinion, true, but very materialistic. We operate primate bodies, but saying we are primates is like saying that since we drive vehicles, we are the vehicles. Forgot to sign it: 71.22.155.114 (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a forum, we go by sources. Oh and we are primates, whether you like it or not. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:52, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a proposed rewording? Wikipedia articles should clearly state the obvious and give appropriate weight to all published viewpoints - it shouldn't play down or gloss over basic, useful facts simply because a small minority of readers might find the information to be "true, but materialistic". --McGeddon (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by "a small minority of readers...." Do you mean the 84% who believe in spiritual matters, or the 16% who don't? Our bodies are primate, but the non-neutral POV that has decided we are nothing but animals is... non-neutral. 71.22.155.114 (talk) 14:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Its nonsense to consider the 84% of religious people as a single group they do not all share any single belief about what humans are or arent. For the vast majority of religious people there is no contradiction between the existence of spirituality and the fact that humans are primates. Also wikipedia is not supposed to reflect what many people believe, but what they know.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To put it bluntly to IP, Wikipedia deals in scientifically-established facts and reliable sources whether you like it or not, regardless of the personal beliefs of anyone of any culture or religion. There are actually some people who believe humans are beings from another planet, but we don't include that opinion here, we include facts that are well-established in empirical science, which has classified humans as primates. Cadiomals (talk) 16:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Right. In other words, it is the consensus among the primates who edit Wikipedia that verifiable facts and not unverifiable opinions form the foundation of their encyclopedia. Many articles, including this one, acknowledge the existence of spiritual beliefs, but they don't present them as alternative sources of verifiable fact. The IP might pause and consider that the 84% he or she mentions (which is in itself unverifiable without a bevy of qualifiers) is far from monolithic, frequently argues within its ranks over even the most basic of spiritual "truths", and includes lots of primates who take science and verifiable fact very seriously. Rivertorch (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for starting a p*ssing contest. 71.22.155.114 (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you see it that way. I think you received some rather measured, thoughtful replies. If you were to glance over the archives of this page (33 pages and counting), you'd see that you were offering a variation on an oft-sung refrain. Rivertorch (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've glanced over the archives. I see some people have Hegellian-itis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.162.143 (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Wikipedia says an encyclopedia "is a type of reference work – a compendium holding a summary of information from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge." It goes on to its derivation, enkyklios paideia, meaning "general education" or "complete knowledge". Are there serious arguments about this? 24.234.105.125 (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2013 (UTC) Okay, we must all be in agreement here. Hope that isn't a kick in the head. Elementalwarrior (talk) 17:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC) You're right; I did get some thoughtful replies. "The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute." It is difficult for me, and perhaps others, to retain senses of humor and proportion when so many people are so serious. All right. This bald statement that a human is nothing but a primate seems so... inadequate. I agree, there's this primate body. But it's just a body. I mean, if all it took to be a human was a primate body, then a just-fertilized zygote would be human. So, if you are serious that all it takes is a primate body, then you must be just as serious in opposing abortion. Because that zygote has a primate body, ipso facto, it is human, and is deserving of human rights, such as, the right to life. Which brings up, what happens at death? There's a homo sapiens body right there, on the slab, no pulse, respiration, brain activity, or other bodily functions. But according to "Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only extant species of the genus Homo." a zygote as well as a dead body are human. So... that's all it takes, is a homo sapiens body? Elementalwarrior (talk) 12:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fact that science classifies Homo sapiens as a primate, and your personal opinions as to the merits of this are of no consequence here. This is not a forum - if you wish to speculate, do it somewhere else. Off-topic material is liable to be deleted from Wikipedia talk pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ISTM that you are trying to drag extraneous issues into this topic. Does this article say that humans are nothing but primates? If it does, then I would object. It is wrong to say that humans are nothing but primates, nothing but mammals, nothing but vertebrates, nothing but animals, or nothing but eukaryotes. It is also wrong to say that chimps are nothing but primates, that eagles are nothing but birds, or that E. coli are nothing but bacteria. Who is there that says that all that it takes to be a human is to have a primate body? That would mean that all primates are human, wouldn't it? And please don't try to inflame the issue by mentioning abortion, which has nothing to do with the topic. (Contemplate, for a moment, how it would be to apply your "logic" to your position. With great effort, I am resisting the temptation to take the bait. This is not the place to argue about such things.) TomS TDotO (talk) 14:06, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Does this article say that humans are nothing but primates?

The first sentence of the article does define humanity in purely biological terms, something which I objected to several years ago when it was written. — goethean 14:33, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good god, this article really draws out the nutbags doesn't it? (yes I said this twice, it's worth saying twice!) Anonywiki (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Anonywiki, I hope you will bear with me. Don't get upset, please. I do have to say, please don't call people names. Calling people names can be seen as an attempt to dehumanize someone, and take away their rights. I believe you deserve the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think you meant all that.

Andy, I've seen your posts before and I have respect for you. However, please don't put words in my mouth. I understand about personal opinions and that is not my purpose.

Tom, I didn't mean to debate abortion. I can understand how it might seem that way. I agree with Goethean. The point is -- and I believe some people got it -- the first sentence is inadequate. I will explain what I mean, but I feel I have to go slow here, so as not to upset anyone. Please give me a chance. Elementalwarrior (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of the article

The above argument is caused, to some degree, by the article not adequately defining its scope. Although we have a section on religion and spirituality, the article treats humans primarily from a scientific perspective. Maybe it would help avoid the above kind of argument if, near the start, the article gave some indication of its scope .Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe links to Humanity (virtue),Human nature, and Human condition would help. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Martin. Thank you. I think Goethean pointed out that one problem is, it's primarily a biological viewpoint, which is just one science. So it's limited ("inadequate") even from a scientific perspective. It's not "general knowledge" so if you're not one of the 3.1 million biologists on Earth, you'll probably have to look up at least three words in that first sentence. Which illustrates the fact that Wikipedia is being re-written by academics, who forget that they use technical terms so often it is off-putting to 99% of humanity. That's one of the problems with this article, and the first sentence is a lightning-rod. As you've also written -- and as I've indicated before, but you're the first one to mention it -- this lead sentence ignores art, ethics, will, and more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elementalwarrior (talk • contribs) 13:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Sorry, my computer started shutting itself down, and I had to Save, Save, Save. Elementalwarrior (talk) 13:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC) Oh, I meant to say, this lead sentence also ignores intellect. Elementalwarrior (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following incorporates some of what I'm thinking. How about... "a primate (romeo sapiens) featuring the strongest and richest inner life of any known life-form, including intellect, will, emotion, and self-talk, plus the senses of morality, imagination, consciousness, spirituality, and aesthetics." And yes, yes, "romeo sapiens" is to keep it light-hearted. Smile, you. Elementalwarrior (talk) 16:51, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to say fairly unobtrusively that this article deals principally with the animal aspect of humans and provide links to the articles that I have mentioned. Maybe just 'see also' for the links would do the trick. The subjects you mention are discussed in those articles. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:23, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The species is Homo sapiens, and we don't put jokes in articles. As for the rest, the lede is supposed to summarise the body of the article, which is based on published reliable sources, not on impossible-to-verify assertions regarding the 'inner life' of different species. I suggest that in future you confine your comments to material actually of relevance to the article, as our patience has been tried quite enough already. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are overdramatizing the issue if you say we are biased to a "scientific perspective". These are just knowable facts about a topic presented in a way that works, not some alternate POV. The article has to spend lots of time talking about how we are different from all others, but first, we are also like many others mundane ways such as having elbows and such. So the practical way to do that is to do things such as call us primates, because in one word we eliminate the need to mention a mountain of things such as the fact that people breathe air and have backbones and urinate and so on, we just have to get all that out of the way with subject complements such as "primate". It's a way to get work done. Try writing this article without saying such things, you'll see. Even if we were to go on to say that we have a ghost inside us or whatver, that still doesn't negate to need to do the work that saying such things such as us being primates does. It just saves time and is obviouly true, and says so much at a mouthful. Chrisrus (talk) 18:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You don't get it. That's my fault. I will fix it. Before that, some housekeeping:

First, I don't mention ghosts. That must have been someone else.

Second, the "subject complement" of my sentence is that we are primates. To me, that is but 1/3 of who and what we are, but I'm trying to work with you.

Third, I was agreeing with Goethean that the lead is biased towards one science: biology.

Fourth, Andy says the lead is supposed to summarise the body of the article; yet, Chrisrus says the article has to spend lots of time talking about how we are different from all others. So if us being different is so key... might the lead summarize/mention these differences?

I've been editing Wikipedia articles for 10 years now. I've never been so rudely treated.

I thought Wikipedia was for everyone.

And that's the problem. For over 22 years, in my free time I tutor. I've tutored in prison; I've tutored to keep teenagers out of prison. I've tutored seniors to get GED's. I've tutored ESL, even as far as getting Master's degrees. I don't make money at it; except once when the mother of a deaf kid who jumped 20 levels in reading and made the Dean's list, pressed $45 into my coat. I use Wikipedia to help my students. Believe me, Wikipedia is getting harder to use. Some people believe that "writing for an encyclopedia" means "make it hard to understand" and "this will help me sound erudite."

So help us. I'm working with a teenager who started out only knowing 18 letters of the alphabet. He was going to prison with his gang for a drive-by. The judge asked me to help. So I'm trying to give him something he can understand. One problem with the first sentence is, he has to look up at least seven words. Just in that first sentence. And that sentence -- with six of those seven words useless to him -- will turn him off to biology. However, if we have him look up words relating to the humanities in that first sentence, that will give him worthwhile clues to understanding himself. .Elementalwarrior (talk) 02:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

psychology

This section assumes that humans are animals with cool attributes. Not sure that's true, but it is "accepted" by people who write articles. lol. Why are the educated and over-educated as well as nerd's ideas so important? How come this article ignores the fact that 86% of the human race believes there are spiritual aspects to life? It's worse than merely ignoring. It tries to bury the idea, that we are spiritual beings animating bodies. Sorry, that won't go away. Can we at least mention that some scientists believe there is a spiritual aspect to being human? Maybe a mention of Faculty Psychology, which although has "fallen out of favor" has never been disproved or "non-straw man" challenged. Human beings have mental and spiritual faculties or abilities, such as reason, will, free will, self-talk, emotion, love, senses of morality and aesthetics, etc., that just can't be explained by "Humans are animals that can be conditioned." 71.22.155.114 (talk) 13:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The spiritual aspect of being human is already covered in the article's "Religion and spirituality" section, with links to in-depth articles on these subjects. --McGeddon (talk) 16:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My god this article really draws the nutbags doesn't it. Anonywiki (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop being rude to people that you disagree with. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Picture under biology

The female is wearing a ring and nail polish on her toenails. While this is not unusual, being naked and posing like that is a little unusual for humans. (I.e., you can't have it both ways.) This is a minor issue, but if the intent is to show humans as they are as a matter of biology, then the ring and nail polish are superfluous. Qed (talk) 05:11, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's the best picture we have. Please do take a better one and use it. Chrisrus (talk) 06:43, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a note to the caption. This was how we dealt with body modifications in the picture. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]