Talk:Syrian civil war

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Dubious Gas Attack Claims August 21st

The way these purported gas attacks are presented in the article suggests that they have, for a fact, happened. We don't know if these are real and I think the paragraph dedicated to this issue should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.17.180 (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it does particularly , it just says its been widely reported these attacks on the eastern outskirts of Damascus, and there's video of people whose limbs have gone floppy which is apparently what can happen in the event of a gas attack and the video of the bodies of children with no marks from bullets, but they are dead - Frank Gardner bbc correspondent, says, "the timing is odd, bordering on suspicious. Why would the Assad government, which has recently been retaking ground from the rebels, carry out a chemical attack while UN weapons inspectors are in the country?" but then goes on to remark "Experts say it would be almost impossible to fake so many dead and injured, including children and babies. They bear no visible wounds from gunshots; instead, many display the classic symptoms of a nerve agent attack, with startled, frozen expressions that experts say are reminiscent of Saddam Hussein's 1988 attack on the Kurds at Halabja. Last year a senior Syrian defector, Nawaf Fares, told me in Qatar that the Assad government would not hesitate to use chemical weapons if it wanted to. However, today it denies any guilt and instead says this is a media campaign by its enemies." [1]Sayerslle (talk) 19:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Even if it happened, only the Takfiris would benefit. I doubt rabid Salafists from Pakistan, Libya, Afghanistan and the like give a damn about the lives of fellow Sunnis in Syria, they kill other Sunnis daily in their own countries. In thos eplaces, civilian Sunnis killed in suicide attacks by other Sunnis are usually labelled "martyrs" either way, because their deaths helped weaken the actual enemy/target. FunkMonk (talk) 23:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Question: Is this article serious? Really? Every event in this damn war is gonna get an article now? lol Coltsfan (talk) 21:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, yes. As I've mentioend before, in the end, only WW2 will rival this one in number of related articles. Every minor gathering of five scraggly bearded Levantines who ever named said group now has an article. It's ridiculous. FunkMonk (talk) 00:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

If the toll of the attack (chemical or not) is anywhere near the numbers being reported, this is a better candidate for an article than many others. Hundreds of people drop dead in the same area at the same time, but it's somehow an insignificant occurrence? This is a poor target for such complaints. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Even the number is being severely questioned. Anyhow, lets see how it develops. FunkMonk (talk) 01:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes lets see what develops. The whole thing is losing momentum linked to a western intervention as conflicting data comes in. Its been signalled by Russia the Western backed rebels did it, in a crude false flag operation, since they have the most to gain from the Syrian govt being blamed: “A homemade rocket with a poisonous substance that has not been identified yet – one similar to the rocket used by terrorists on March 19 in Khan al-Assal - was fired early on August 21 [at Damascus suburbs] from a position occupied by the insurgents,” the Ministry then said in a statement. From. http://rt.com/news/iran-warns-us-red-line-961/ This view is gaining traction as evidenced by Syria Govt allowing in inspectors. http://rt.com/news/syria-green-light-chemical-inspection-967/Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:FRINGE

This is getting interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbXbafI7cCw --Emesik (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC) The death toll is been questioned. Plus the name of the article is "Ghouta chemical attack". Chemical? We are not even sure if the attack was chemical or not. Actually, we are not even sure who the perpetrators are! Some are saying that the rebels did it, but we're putting in that article that the attack was of chemical nature is an undeniable fact? This is getting ridiculous. Coltsfan (talk) 14:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC) So what your saying in principle is that the Dancing Plague of 1518 might have resurfaced and killed everyone? No blood no injures, just rapid movement of muscles and dilated pupils. Makes sense. Sopher99 (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Parsimony, remember that? Either the videos are simply faked, or the "rebels" did it themselves to provoke a NATO attack. Pretty simple. FunkMonk (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC) I don't see how or when at any point in this conflict the Syrian army wanted to be conservative with the number of people they intend to kill. Sopher99 (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC) We're heading off to "to be hatted" territory again. But just to make one thing clear, I doubt even you think the regime is suicidal. And again, more than half of those killed are pro-regime.Your very own SOHR tells us that. FunkMonk (talk) 15:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC) I believe the top 100 officials or so are more than willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their own. Tell me by the way - did the gassing of kurds in Iraq cause international military response? Sopher99 (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Saddam was under the wing of the US when he gassed the Kurds. You can get away with practically anything as long as the West supports you. And that's exactly why the "rebels" have an interest in false flag operations, and leaked Turkish intelligence has shown they possess the means to do it. Nuff said. I'm sensing Tippy's presence. So this will be my last response. FunkMonk (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC) This is avery interesting video from a credible source about Syria. This is from Roland Dumas, the former foreign minister of France: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz-s2AAh06I — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.17.180 (talk) 17:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC) "United Nations inspectors in Damascus were denied access for a second day to the affected areas of the capital – only seven-10 miles from their hotel." that seems more pertinent to be added than random offscourings/stuff you reckon is avery interesting.Sayerslle (talk) 13:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC) Don't attack his typo you troll. Attack the argument. Damascus has let U.N. investigators into the alleged chemical weapon site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.78.20.13 (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Syria intervention

New page? new infobox? new column? What's the plan? Sopher99 (talk) 12:19, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Put the US and France in the infobox but remove Britian. Put the US above France.(Chipperdude15) (talk) 12:56 30 August 2013 (UTC)
• new page - as per 2011 military intervention in Libya. Article to be named either 2013 military intervention in Syria or under whatever name the operation is undertaken by the US military (i.e. as Operation Odyssey Dawn). noclador (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Nothing until something actually happens. I doubt it will be on a larger scale than the Israeli airstrikes, so don't get your hopes up. And in any case, the US will obviously be in the same column as the opposition. Like Israel would be, if it wasn't too embarrassing for them. FunkMonk (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Important note - The strikes will probably going to last for like 3 days (source:[2]). They're "limited strikes". It's nothing like the Libyan no-fly zone. I think a new article called 2013 United States military strikes on Syria is more appropriate. A new article should be created, although I'm not sure what the title should be. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to add the US to the infobox. Its impact is relatively minimal. If we do include it, we should put it in a collapsible list entitled "Limited strikes".--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• See this: Analysis: Syrian regime can withstand limited strike. Analysts agree the limited strikes won't have a big impact on the war.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Note, certainly we do not create an article until the strikes are underway! How large the whole thing will be we can not know now... especially as we also do have no idea about Syrias and Irans reaction. So we can not gauge the impact yet... but it is already clear that the USA, the UK, France and likely Saudi Arabia will take part in the strikes (Saudi Arabia has a 350 Storm Shadow Cruise Missiles its planes could fire from Jordanian Airspace). So to call it the "2013 United States bombing of Syria" is factually wrong as it omits the likely to be involved other countries and articles were only cruise missiles have been deployed are listed as "Cruise missile strikes on " (e.g. Cruise missile strikes on Iraq (1996), Cruise missile strikes on Afghanistan and Sudan (August 1998), Cruise missile strikes on Iraq (June 1993)). So - depending on the size and type of strike either 2013 military intervention in Syria or Cruise missile strikes on Syria (2013) seem the most appropriate titles. noclador (talk) 15:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The British are mobilizing war planes in their bases in Cyprus. So there might be airstrikes as well, so I guess "2013 military intervention in Syria" or "2013 limited strikes on Syria" will be the best title.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Musing about a title now is futile. Once it happens, a title will be obvious, as we'll know the exact details. "Military invention" is too general. Surely, Israel's airstrikes this year were "military interventions" too? FunkMonk (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

It's important to prepare now in order to avoid a chaotic edit war. Israel's airstrikes are completely unrelated to the civil war in Syria, so it's inappropriate to make that comparison.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Prevent the edit war instead. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:22, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Similar discussions (about possible events, and preparation for them) have been hatted in the past as being "forum" or whatever. As for Israel, "completely unrelated" to those who find it convenient, as implied by countless former discussions. In any case, the point of mentioning Israel was that it would not make sense to title a new article "2013 military intervention in Syria", since Israel already did that, regardless of allegiance or lack of it. FunkMonk (talk) 16:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Response to Chemical Weapons use in Syria, 2013Sayerslle (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Response to alleged Chemical Weapons use in Syria, 2013 perhaps? ;) --Emesik (talk) 21:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

well the Russian regime believes its not possible to have happened. Not by the Syrian regime. Syria is one of 5 nations not to have signed the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention though. theres still a lot that isn't known. patience. tolerance. Sayerslle (talk) 00:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile the 2013 Ghouta attacks page is enough, unless that event sparks something much bigger. --Emesik (talk) 21:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

napalm-like bombs are being used for sure by the regime [3] Sayerslle (talk) 22:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

There's already a page about that, which needs to be rewritten. --Emesik (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Its a fake story as much as I would like to see Putin and Larov completely lose their ground on international policy. Sopher99 (talk) 23:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

So whats the consensus? New wikipedia page and just put a note in the infobox linking to it? Sopher99 (talk) 16:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest to do it as with the Libyan civil war - add a summary paragraph to the main article (like: Libyan civil war#Foreign military intervention) and then create a more detailed new article (like: 2011 military intervention in Libya) with then the whole subset of articles as needed (like: Timeline of the 2011 military intervention in Libya, International reactions to the 2011 military intervention in Libya, US domestic reactions to the 2011 military intervention in Libya, Protests against the 2011 military intervention in Libya, etc.). noclador (talk) 17:16, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm okay with that.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:32, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Looks like any intervention (if there is going to be one) won't happen for at least another 10 days.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Claims the US planned false flag chemical attacks in Syria

Hi, according to reporter Yahya Ababneh, who talked with rebels in Ghouta, chemical weapons was given to them by Saudi's guys. But rebels didn't know how to use them - so weapons exploaded by mistake. [4] date=29 August 2013

Hi, I'm not a regular in this article but I encountered this information that may be of current relevance - I didn't find discussion of it in a search of the archives and I'll leave it to regulars to decide whether to include.
U.S. 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria and blame it on Assad's regime' (Daily Mail, Jan. 29 2013)
US 'backed plan to launch chemical weapon attack on Syria, blame it on Assad govt': Report (ANI, Jan 30, 2013)
Interesting view on deletion of the original Daily Mail article --Dailycare (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

You can't be serious... Is this a joke? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

It was covered by several reliable sources (I remember the story), so I don't see the "joke". But I think it would be wrong to use this now, because we need new sources that relate the two issues. Otherwise, it's original synthesis. Another interesting issue is the fact that Turkish authorities caught rebels in Turkey with certain chemicals not so long ago. FunkMonk (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Which two issues do you mean? If you mean the alleged false flag attack and the civil war, the article discusses "government forces and rebels" which IMO clearly places it in the context of the Syrian civil war. --Dailycare (talk) 18:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The issues is this alleged plan, and putting it in relation to the recent alleged chemical attach. FunkMonk (talk) 18:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If one reads the Daily Mail article it becomes clear that this is a rather ridiculous piece of junk: an email, allegedly released by a Malaysian hacker, (as a British security company has their mails servers in Malaysia - that's totally logical), this email between two private contractors says that "We’ve got a new offer. It’s about Syria again. Qataris propose an attractive deal and swear that the idea is approved by Washington." Which Qataris? Who are they? and even if they swear that it is approved by Washington... who in Washington? What person there? Well, nobody knows, nobody has an idea - but the Daily Mail concludes "that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria". Really??? The White House? What person? Who? Ah, nobody has a clue and nobody knows... but that December 25th mail (Christmas Day!) is taken for truth, when in fact anyone could cook some BS like this up in his own free time. noclador (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah ok I see - but I wasn't thinking of placing it in the context of the recent alleged chemical attack, just including it in the article overall, the article does have material spanning a long timescale relating to the civil war and chemical weapons. --Dailycare (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is proof that this mail is a forgery: [5]. noclador (talk) 05:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

wow, thanks! --Dailycare (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I have seen the article. Reminds me of the Iraq WMD fraud that was used to justify an attack. I think in time US intel in his latest situation will likely be outed as fraud also. Lets wait and see. Certainly USA strikes now would be a direct violation of international law. http://rt.com/news/russia-us-syria-intelligence-236/

Since we are an encyclopedia and always have neutral POV (LOL) the others side story is of course key to impartiality and lack of bias in the article. So heres this. http://rt.com/news/syria-denies-us-intelligence-235/ Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Kosovo war, Bosnian war, Libyan civil war. And the two you'l love the most United_States_invasion_of_Panama , Russia–Georgia_war Sopher99 (talk) 03:17, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

• If the information comes from RT, Press TV or SANA, and if it's against the opposition, then it's absolute truth. But if it comes from a western source, it's a lie, propaganda and bias. Right? Right? lol Coltsfan (talk) 15:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

RS that claim it's a false flag [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] USchick (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

The Euronews and Thehindu are only reporting that assad claims its a false flag. The Indepdentent is not saying its a false flag, rather just collecting any doubts intel has gave all in one piece. Indypendent? regardless that source too, is only reporting on the syrian government's accusation Sopher99 (talk) 19:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources are reporting that this attack is being seriously considered as a false flag attack. USchick (talk) 20:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No. Reliable sources are reporting that this attack is being seriously considered by the Syrian government as a false flag attack. Sopher99 (talk) 20:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Since when do US politicians like Rand Paul and Pat Buchanan work for the Syrian government? USchick (talk) 22:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Mislabelled Map

On the map of Syria showing the control/situation of fighting in different cities, you labelled Jordan as Israel. My sister just noticed that retarded mistake. I guess everyone makes mistakes, but labelling Jordan as Israel is rather on the special side. Sorry I have been told what I written is mean, sorry. Just please correct that mistake please. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.252.77 (talk) 21:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

that error has already been fixed in the map code. Maybe if you do not see it yet, you ought to refresh your browser so it doesn't load the site from cache. noclador (talk) 21:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Try turning off javascript, it does all sorts of shady things to content on the web, depending on the user. §§§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.241.203.159 (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

why is this protected?

I want to make a few amendments to the propaganda style language used in this article and it seems that this is not possible on a site hosted in a democratic country with law allowing free speech, is the USA/UK actually democratic? I am a british subject so evidently I have not the correct human rights in this capacity. Who does wikipedia work for? Is it the crown? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.241.203.159 (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This is protected because this is more or less propaganda. All main points are coming from the mainstream talking points, eg. there's a picture labelled "U.S. non-lethal aid to Syrian opposition forces, May 2013". Non-lethal, my ass. Or the fact that this article separates the "Free" "Syrian" "Army" (quotes on each word are justified :) ), and the "mujahedeen". These forces are hardly distinguishable off course, and in any other article the mujahedeen would be called al-Queda w/o hesitation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.1.107.34 (talk) 10:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Look we have to accept agents of powers with vested interests in the Syrian Rebel cause slash USA slash Saudi Arabia slash Israel etc, edit here. Its a verifiable fact intel agencies of the above countries pay bloggers to push their agenda google this re Israel uni students. Why not here too? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

To the first and second poster who sound like they may be new to the site: Welcome to Wikipedia. I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with some of Wiki's policy regarding content in articles. Some things that may not make sense in the way things are handled here can be easily understood by consulting policy documents. As these articles are inevitably edited by numerous people with different perspectives, having clear expectations for using reputable sources, etc is necesary to ensure the final product reflects as little POV as possible. If you think something is missing, find reputable sources and be bold and add it. If you disagree with content, bring specific recommendations to the Talk page. Keep in mind, while wiki strives to be as neutral as possible, there is not, nor should be, equal time and space given to all opinions about a subject. We only reflect what the reputable sources say, and aim to do so in a manner that's roughly proportional to the weight of a given position. If you feel strongly about an issue, keep in mind this is not a forum. There are plenty of places to have sprited discussions about these topics on the internet. This Talk page is solely for specific changes and recommendations abotu article content. The more specific, the more likely people will engage with you. Rants are just short of useless without constructive recommendations. Keep in mind, your personal "truth" may not jibe with others. in the end, it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks is the truth...we are not here to make truth, we are here to report what the RSs say. That's all. If you have an issue with these policies, wiki may not be the best place for you to express yourself.204.65.34.29 (talk) 22:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Please add this information to article

• U.S. Tried to Derail UN Syria Probe; Dubiously Claimed Too Late for Evidence : “Despite the U.S. effort to portray the Syrian government policy as one of ‘delay,’ the formal request from the United Nations for access to the site did not go to the Syrian government until Angela Kane, UN High Representative for Disarmament Affairs, arrived in Damascus on Saturday, as Ban’s spokesman, Farhan Haq, conceded in a briefing in New York on Tuesday. Syrian Foreign Minister Moallem said in a press conference Tuesday that Syria had not been asked by the United Nations for access to the East Ghouta area until Kane presented it on Saturday. Syria agreed to provide access and to a ceasefire the following day."

• Syria asks UN to immediately investigate 3 new ‘chemical attacks’ by rebels : "Ambassador Bashar Jaafari said he had requested of UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that the team of experts currently in Damascus investigating an alleged use of chemical weapons last week also investigate these other attacks. The attacks took place on August 22, 24 and 25 in Jobar, Sahnaya, and al-Bahariya, Jaafari told journalists Wednesday. The “militants” used toxic chemical gas against the Syrian army, the diplomat said. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.78.51.137 (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Neither are reliable sources. Sopher99 (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

How so? The Institute for Public Accuracy doesn't even have a dog in this fight and is a reputable non-profit organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.78.51.137 (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

For Sopher, no source is reliable unless it is pro-Islamist. He is nearly a one man propaganda team. He works this article tirelessly trying to get his discourse out as the main narrative on this conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.188.161 (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The question is: are you using your phone as a phone? hm Coltsfan (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Use the award winning RT as a reliable source. She covers all the things US mainstream media censors out. LOL Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

RT is utterly unreliable. It's a propaganda outlet for the Kremlin. I have my complaints with the mainstream media in the U.S., but if you have a cursory understanding of the American press, you'll know it's not editorially controlled by the government the way virtually all Russian media is. (I'm sure President Obama occasionally wishes otherwise...) -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Community sanctions on Syrian civil war articles

I would like to note that from now on, Syrian civil war topic articles are coming under community restrictions based on 1RR rule, as a result of motion from July 2013 [11] and a consequent WP:AN discussion over imposing sanctions [12] on articles of the Syrian civil war topic.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Strong Bias in Article

Just read the 'chemical' section. Its non POV, biased and not encyclopedic. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Instead of making vague accusations, how about we break down the paragraph of concern and see if it really is so scary.

On 21 August, Syrian activists reported that Assad regime forces struck Jobar, Zamalka, 'Ain Tirma, and Hazzah in the Eastern Ghouta region with chemical weapons. At least 635 people were killed in a nerve gas attack. Unverified videos uploaded showed the victims, many of who were convulsing, as well as several dozen bodies lined up. <the death toll definitely needs to be updated, other than that we simply give a who, what, where and when. The videos were also a highlight in the media that day.>

Experts in chemical weapons stated that the footage showed signs that a nerve agent may have been used. <backed up by a BBC source, experts - who exist - saw videos - which exist - and concluded it was most likely nerve agents - which exist.>

Early sources reported a figure of 213 in a poisonous gas attack. The SNC chief said that the overall death toll stood at an estimated 1300, as only a fraction of the bodies could be collected and many died within their own homes. <death tolls - all deadly attacks have death tolls.>

The Syrian government initially prevented United Nations investigators from reaching the sites of the attacks, despite their accommodations being only a few kilometers away. <backed up by HRW and Reuters, Syrian government - initially - blocked access. Ghouta is only a few kilometers from where the UN inspectors were staying. Unless using the metric system instead of the imperial system counts as POV, I see nothing wrong here.>

On 25 August, the Syrian government agreed to allow UN investigators to visit the site of the attacks.<The syrian government allows them in>

The UN inspectors arrived to the site of the attacks, despite being fired upon by an unknown party while underway. UN officials say that inspectors have gathered "valuable" evidence. < no blame attributed to the attack on the vehicle, UN statement says valuable evidence collected. Not seeing a problem unless you really want to strech it by saying "valuable" is an inappropriate point of view>

On 26 August the inspectors reached some sites, but after an hour and a half, were ordered by the Syrian government to return due to 'safety concerns', and the inspectors could not reach the six main sites. <the events that took place on 26 August, Guardian source>

<The paragraph is fine, just needs to be updated> Sopher99 (talk) 03:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The section looks fine to me. What's the problem? --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Even I think it's fine and I am strongly against Islamist propaganda. However, we need to change the combatants box so that the Mujahideen section is changed to "foreign militants." Don't give one side the more honourable title "Mujahideen" and others the title "foreign militants." Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.17.180 (talk) 15:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No - because the foreign militants under the Syrian government are exclusively foreign, where as for the mujahideen only a small fraction are foreign. Sopher99 (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What do you base the last assessment on? FunkMonk (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

yes Sopher ref that widely. You cant. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Im surprised no ones seen it. What is bias? When one side is represented and the other not, right. Its called balance when its done right. There are no relevant sections stating Syria's legit government position on various accusations, (refs available on RT). No Russian position re Rebels did it, (refs available on RT). No Russian position re lack of evidence, real evidence not trial by media (refs available on RT). And on and on. To get your head around the need for balance you may need to understand three things. 1/ evidence of sarin alone is not guilt for Syria. 2/ The rebels could easily have been supplied with sarin by their mid east backers. 3/ Who gains from this attack? Not Assad. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

That's because Sopher thinks only Western (and Gulf) media is neutral. FunkMonk (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes well its a common problem in many. IMHO Al Jazerra is dodgy, and RT is fine. The NYT is biased IMO, but smooth about it. Thats why a wide range of views is good. Syria is getting biased media coverage in the west. Why? Political reasons Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

But in the east, it's all fine and dandy! The media coverage in Russia is not bias at all, right? And how can RT be neutral if they are openly funded by the russian government? It's like I have said before! To you guys it's like "If the information comes from RT, Press TV or SANA, and if it's against the opposition, then it's absolute truth. But if it comes from a western source, it's a lie, propaganda and bias." C'om! Coltsfan (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

way too simplistic Coltsfan. BALANCE is required. RT and the like are required for balance. I know there are agendas all round but think on this. If that was a false flag the backers of those who ordered it are evil. If those are the backers of the rebels, the Wests people, us, have a real problem. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I've often pointed to the comically pronounced pro-rebel bias on this article. And the fact that Sopher99's efforts (i.e. numerous edit wars) are focused on keeping it as much in-line with islamist rebel propaganda as possible. Setting aside the fact that much of the world media sources not friendly to the Sunni insurgency are disregarded - even western media are being ignored when they have something to say that might reflect badly on the rebels. Just yesterday I heard on CNN that the insurgency is composed of separate movements, the largest of which is the Al-Nusra Front. Does the article reflect that? Or is it a poster for fairy-tale propaganda from the "Syrian National Coalition".. -- Director (talk) 20:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"This article is pro rebels"! "Western media is bias"! "This article is propaganda"... Same old, same old. The pro Assad guys thinks this article is propaganda. The pro opposition guys thinks this article is also propaganda. Give me a break. Coltsfan (talk) 21:01, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about Assad or (if you'll pardon) Syria in general. I care about our project and its reputation. If you think people voicing concerns of bias "cancel each other out" I hope you'll think again. -- Director (talk) 23:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about both sides either. I look at this article and it's too big! There is a lot of crap here. But I don't think it's bias. And I don't think that it shows a western view of the conflict. And regarding the sources, RT is just as bad as Fox News, for instance. Coltsfan (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the sort of thing that should be in there for balance. 'Russia releases key findings on chemical attack near Aleppo indicating similarity with rebel-made weapons'. http://rt.com/news/chemical-aleppo-findings-russia-417/.

Heres a teaser from it. 'the shell used in the incident “does not belong to the standard ammunition of the Syrian army and was crudely according to type and parameters of the rocket-propelled unguided missiles manufactured in the north of Syria by the so-called Bashair al-Nasr brigade”;

Oh there will be war, certain powers want it bad, but Im not going to be a sap and not see the bias and wrongness beforehand which is also evident in this article. I live in the West, Im white, have 2 degrees, so what? Well when I see bias in Wikipedia thats all Im saying. I also have views on how democracy has been subverted, I like Snowdens stand. Again so what. Bias is bias and its dangerous. Its feeding an illegal US strike. It will lead to loss of life in Syria. Why should an encyclopedia support it? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Bias is Bias and its dangerous. its feeding an illegal US strike" I think this sums up the hypocrisy of the talking points around here. Sopher99 (talk) 00:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Not clear what you mean, explain in detail. As for your quote in italics: I dont know where you live but here in Australia on commercial and state sponsored news its trial by media and it is feeding public opinion toward bias. Iraq WMD are forgotton by some. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 01:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher is not aware that a US strike would indeed be illegal in terms of international law. Such things are generally not given much attention, though. Many past and present US foreign entanglements are more-or-less illegal in that sense, so people got used to it decades ago. Sopher is basically saying that your (rather naïve) reference to international law indicates bias. To be sure, both Iraq and now Syria are essentially cases of naked aggression, legally speaking, and the media in the west are generally supportive thereof, no question. -- Director (talk) 02:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Therein lies the rub. That is why the USA never will sign up for the world court. Their leaders would be tried, no doubt about that. I believe many see where this will end, by and by. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 03:04, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Russia Today is not a reliable source for any claim that supports the Kremlin's view.--Brian Dell (talk) 06:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

But US media is a reliable source for claims that supports the US government's view? You really don't see the double standards here? Same with Gulf Arab media. FunkMonk (talk) 06:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The Funky Monks right. Its also what I said above. I have to say though that the push and bustle IMHO is from the West. An event happened. Children died. But there is something very wrong with the media coverage. Im suspicious of such things post 9/11, post Iraq, Afghanistan. I would not be surprised if it comes out one day the attack came from non Assad sources. The Al Q affiliated rebels in fact. There is enough coverage for this doubt to be included in the article. I'm suspicious also of some editors here too, because its really obviously biased. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

FT, you clearly misunderstand WP:NOTFORUM. Kindly refrain from messing with posts you personally disagree with and/or are annoyed by. Also please try to keep your language civil ("rambling"). -- Director (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree, FT uses WP:NOTFORUM incorrectly. The result of this is to shut down for some an uncomfortable, but legitimate debate. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 02:33, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• This is a discussion about content, so of course it should not be hidden. This[13] section was pure unsourced speculation, yet I didn't see Future whining about that. FunkMonk (talk) 04:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, that [14] is a clanger. Seriously though we need some neutral work in here like the banner at the top of this page urges Blade-of-the-South (talk) 08:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Move request

The subject of this article is a proper noun and should be moved to Syrian Civil War.[15] I can not imagine this as controversial, yet it is move protected so I posted the request here. Am I missing something here?—John Cline (talk) 23:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Ariha

Ariha under the government control by sep/03/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syria-truth (talk • contribs) 03:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Undue weight to Israel content in Interntaional Reaction/Humanitarian Aid section

First and foremost, this is not an attack on Israel or POV pushing. I just noticed in reading through this setcion that the first paragraph which details almost all other humanitarian aid, involving thousands, is a small and more concise read than the seemingly overinflated paragraph that follows. The second paragraph seems to have a much greater level of detail on the Israeli effort than is warranted by the scope of the article. It's increidbly laudable that Israel is providing aid, I don't mean to take anything away from them or to downplay their effort. I just think we go into too much detail in comparison to the previous paragrah. If we can sum up all US and other sources of aid, which affect thousands or millions, in one paragraph, do we really need to spend a whole paragraph talking about how Israel provided aid to 100? It seems undue weight. Israel's effort is certianly not negligible, but it's certainly not of the same scope as everything else put together. I would recommend shortening that paragraph to one sentence, something like "Israel has provided medical aid to 100 people through special entry permits for critically wounded Syrians." Everything else is pretty much extraneous detail. If equal detail was put into USAID efforts, it would be a whole article. Much love for Israel, but let's keep it short and sweet?204.65.34.29 (talk) 22:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. Israel probably won't even show up on the first ten pages of google when you look up "Syria humanitarian aid" on google. Sopher99 (talk) 01:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and edit it; if reverted, please bring to Talk.204.65.34.204 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Most sources describe the conflict as gradually having turned sectarian. Whats wrong with mentioning that? Futuretrillionaire removed that. Pass a Method talk 03:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• Re-add it. It is basically how this war is defined, whether Future likes it or not. FunkMonk (talk) 04:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

This article is 1RR so i cant re-add it yet. Pass a Method talk 04:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

G20: Rebels did Gas attack statement

Putin: Syria chemical attack is ‘rebels' provocation in hope of intervention’ There was no 50/50 split of opinion (at G20) on the notion of a military strike against the Syrian President Bashar Assad, Putin stressed refuting earlier assumptions.

Only Turkey, Canada, Saudi Arabia and France joined the US push for intervention, he said, adding that the UK Prime Minister’s position was not supported by his citizens.

Russia “will help Syria” in the event of a military strike, Putin stressed as he responded to a reporter’s question at the summit.

http://rt.com/news/putin-g20-syria-meeting-511/

No hysteria please, objectivity only. 21:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Heh, will even this get the usual choir to nag about RT not being a reliable source? FunkMonk (talk) 22:31, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you suggesting RT has a record of misquoting Putin? Looks like wsj can confirm some of this. What's the problem? TippyGoomba (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

No RT is professional, it quotes Putin correctly. I was pleasantly surprised to find how much depth and breadth of coverage RT has. I know Americans who visit RT to find out whats going on in the USA. Re the G20 MSM in USA and Australia is not reporting fully how little support Obama has for an illegal non UN approved Syrian strike. I think this ref should be used in the article to present an article that shows the different stances ie. BRICs, not just the Western one Blade-of-the-South (talk) 04:55, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

“The categorical objections were raised by Russia, China, India and Indonesia – and I would like to call your attention to the fact that this is the world’s largest Islamic country in terms of the population – Argentina, Brazil, South Africa and Italy,” Putin said. [16] Albany Tribune and BBC [17], and The Hindu [18]. USchick (talk) 05:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

blablabla, Putin doesn't know what he says: 11x G-20 countries plus Spain have signed a Joint Statement on Syria: Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States of America [19] (Germany signed up a day later [20]). Isolation looks a lot different than that... especially as you only have 19 countries in the G20, the 20th member is the EU, who today supported action in Syria too! So: out of 20 members 12 say Syria is guilty and action needs to follow, Mexico is neutral and Russia stands with 6 others... 12 against 7! Putin needs to learn some math. noclador (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

noclador again you are another who misses the point of neutrality (on purpose?). Yes now later as events unfold 10 members plus USA signed a statement on Syria. But there was no joint statement on Syria, despite a 20-minute one-on-one talk between Obama and Putin on the sidelines of the summit on Friday. Obama did manage to persuade ten other G20 countries to sign a statement calling for what it calls a ‘strong international response’ in Syria but the statement fell short of endorsing military action. The EU came in later. Hardly ground breaking stats. Imagine if in the US elections the Democrats got 55% of the cast votes (at summits end) but the Wikipedia article on it only stressed the Democrat 55% leaving out the other, what is a substantial percentage, almost parity in fact. Thats powerfully biased coverage right. If one more country voted no or was neutral at summits end Obama would have got 50%. Thats why Im going to put some balance in.

Re this article and a possible consequences section. I would also like to point out some possible consequences for the USA of this proposed Syrian strike by the USA against the wishes of Russia China. China Russia hold 25% of all foreign held US Treasury paper. In short by dumping they could collapse the US economy. Something to watch. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-06/how-many-treasurys-do-russia-and-china-own. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Please stay on topic, see WP:NOTFORUM. Is anyone suggesting an edit? I'm not sure if we want to put these Putin quotes in the article. 03:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Nope, I am not " missing the point of neutrality"; and you're mixing things up! I have an issue with Putin not telling the full picture in his G-20 press conference. Also you only focus on the US not having full support of the G-20... 55% is still much more than the 35% Mr. Putin can muster. Also: if one includes the EU it is 60% to 35%, that is still an almost twice as strong majority support for the US position! (And NOT almost parity)! The point is not - as you claim one of neutrality or biased coverage - but one of deliberate mis-information by the President of Russia. noclador (talk) 06:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand the thread of this argument, I think someone is trying to argue Russia has a credible position?! Isnt that prima facie obviously untrue? Russia is defending Assad in the face of evidence - Russia does not claim to have contradictory evidence, they have simply argued anyway, without evidence. Also, the list of who agrees with the USA is much longer then that - Australia is also condemning the syrian government use of chemical weapons.... Ottawakismet (talk) 13:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

FT please refrain from misusing WP:NOTFORUM as you did above and in a previous thread. You have no consensus. Here is what was said to you in another thread even longer than this one by User:DIREKTOR. 'FT, you clearly misunderstand WP:NOTFORUM. Kindly refrain from messing with posts you personally disagree with and/or are annoyed by. Also please try to keep your language civil.

The point of the thread is that there is no hard evidence yet that Sarin? was deployed by Assad / Syria. This is not reflected in the article. Nor has there been a G20 joint statement stating there is hard evidence. Its all speculation right now. Even a UN report saying it was Sarin that was used, only identifies the chemical agent, not the group who fired it. Neutrality should reflect these facts not political maneuvering. Hopefully these issues will sort out soon. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Syrian civil war → Syrian Arab Spring war – Protesters do not generally turn into an army without being one to begin with. There is no reason to suppose the demonstrators were not invaders, going from one country to the next to fight, like Alexander or like crusaders. The demonstrators could conceivably be the 250,000 lift in Iraq by U.S. President George H.W. Bush. Thus “civil war” is probably not what is going on there. 69.3.115.148 (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

• IP user who know how to make move request... do we need to take this request to move a 2 years old article with no redirect seriously? --PLNR (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
• Snowball close; enough said. noclador (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes its a dirty corrupt war and no name I suspect will do it justice. Of course its way beyound a civil war. Its a geopolitical power play. I like 'The Syrian Conflict' for a name, as it leaves room for the host of back room, shadowy nasty interfering players as well. But I think we are stuck with this name because of the pernicious nomenclature in mainstream media and those who oppose any changes based on common sense. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

The only media channel that doesn't call this conflict a civil war is SANA and Press TV. All the others, including RT, calls it a civil war. The UN calls it like this as well, the Red Cross, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current name. Coltsfan (talk) 00:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Wikipedia's policy on article titles, we should use the most common name used by most reliable sources and mainstream media. Zzyzx11 (talk) 00:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – the given rationale sounds more like a POV than a reason to move an article. Dicklyon (talk) 03:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Abstain Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:39, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - per WP:UCN. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. --Norden1990 (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

article statement

However, experts say that hard-line Islamists make up only 8,000 of the 140,000-strong rebel force.

This statement is highly misleading.If not simply wrong.

First of all, the source article, which is the basis for this statement, says that 140,000 opposition fighters are FSA fighters.and that 8000 are islamists.

but the FSA itself is composed of Islamists (3rd paragraph).

second of all, just because one is not a hardline islamist, does not mean one is secular.one could believe in some form of Islamic democracy.

In short, it is a very misleading statement, and the extent to which the opposition is secular is at best unclear.99.254.53.216 (talk) 22:54, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree, sloppy work originally. Try this for search ideas. One US intelligence estimate found as many as a quarter of the 300 different rebel groups in Syria may be fighting under the banner of al-Qaeda, according toRep. Mike Rogers (R-MI), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. http://news.antiwar.com/2012/09/08/jihadists-striving-for-autocratic-theocracy-make-up-syrian-rebels/ Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Its not misleading. Hardline islamists are extremists. Only 8k are extremist.

Anti-war.com? Really? the pov is even in the name of this one. Sopher99 (talk) 00:03, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 really. Did anyone at all suggest Anti-war.com as a reference? No. Instead I said this, 'Try this for search ideas'..i.e. this info, 'Mike Rogers (R-MI), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee'. Sopher can you try to follow the lines of reasoning because when you dont its disruptive. Thankyou. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I think a statement like that is based on very little, "Experts" doesnt mean any kind of authentication imho. Is this conclustion based on a survey of attitudes of rebel fighters? LOL Neither the Syrian government nor the rebels have a definite list of who is fighting and who isnt. Ottawakismet (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Ottawakismet I think you are correct no one knows how strong in number the hardline Islamists are. Its messy and the article could show that or say that rather than put up figures that are flawed Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:35, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I am willing to bet it's a majority.99.254.53.216 (talk) 00:35, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: This page needs a picture th...

93.150.144.50 posted this comment on 28 June 2013 (view all feedback).

This page needs a picture that shows all of the relations between the factions that are involved

(like for example, there can be a green line between the "syrian government" and "Hezbollah" to show that they're allies).

It would also be better to see an example of the art produced by the war.

Thanks.

Any thoughts?

I think neither of these ideas belong on this page. A graphic for the relations of the Syrian government during the war, should be under "Foreign involvement in the Syrian civil war" or " International reactions to the Syrian civil war", this page is crowded and overly lengthy already. Also, Wikipedia is not an art gallery. At most there should be one representative piece of art, if it becomes famous, noteworthy or significant, or affects the course of the war, otherwise no, I do not believe it belongs here. Ottawakismet (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Al-Nusra Front or Jabhat al-Nusra?

The article should be consistent in which version of the group's name to use. Which one do we use? Persnonally, I prefer Al-Nusra Front because that's the name of the Wikipedia article for it.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:21, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Why don't we call it by its english name - we do so for the "national defense force" and Islamic state in Iraq and Syria. Sopher99 (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

English language media is using Al-Nusra Front. USchick (talk) 17:29, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Sectarianism in the lede

I don't want to go into edit war again with Sopher "Blame Assad!" 99, so I'm just pointing this out. Right in the lede we have a statement: "The conflict gradually took a more sectarian nature between Sunnis and Shia Alawites when the Syrian government began establishing Alawite militias to substitute defected soldiers."

This, of course, is just a part of the truth. Influx of Sunni extremists, funding of Sunni groups by Gulf states, spillover of sectarian conflict in Iraq and calling for jihad against Shi'a are the other aspects, not mentioned there.

Can someone edit that in some neutral way? Thanks. --Emesik (talk) 23:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)