Talk:Syrian civil war

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Undue weight to chemical weapons use

The last sentence of the introduction, and a large part of the body, emphasize chemical weapons use. This is a minor part of a much larger conflict and the overemphasis on it in this article is derived from US media and State Department rhetoric rather than balanced reporting of the conflict. At minimum the last sentence of the introductory paragraph should point out that over 40% [1] of the FSA's fighting force is Al Qaeda terrorists.Mustang19 (talk) 22:24, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Really interesting and telling comment - but is anyone going to reply? 78.147.84.221 (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

why is this protected?

I want to make a few amendments to the propaganda style language used in this article and it seems that this is not possible on a site hosted in a democratic country with law allowing free speech, is the USA/UK actually democratic? I am a british subject so evidently I have not the correct human rights in this capacity. Who does wikipedia work for? Is it the crown? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.241.203.159 (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This is protected because this is more or less propaganda. All main points are coming from the mainstream talking points, eg. there's a picture labelled "U.S. non-lethal aid to Syrian opposition forces, May 2013". Non-lethal, my ass. Or the fact that this article separates the "Free" "Syrian" "Army" (quotes on each word are justified :) ), and the "mujahedeen". These forces are hardly distinguishable off course, and in any other article the mujahedeen would be called al-Queda w/o hesitation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.1.107.34 (talk) 10:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Look we have to accept agents of powers with vested interests in the Syrian Rebel cause slash USA slash Saudi Arabia slash Israel etc, edit here. Its a verifiable fact intel agencies of the above countries pay bloggers to push their agenda google this re Israel uni students. Why not here too? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 05:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

To the first and second poster who sound like they may be new to the site: Welcome to Wikipedia. I'd recommend you familiarize yourself with some of Wiki's policy regarding content in articles. Some things that may not make sense in the way things are handled here can be easily understood by consulting policy documents. As these articles are inevitably edited by numerous people with different perspectives, having clear expectations for using reputable sources, etc is necesary to ensure the final product reflects as little POV as possible. If you think something is missing, find reputable sources and be bold and add it. If you disagree with content, bring specific recommendations to the Talk page. Keep in mind, while wiki strives to be as neutral as possible, there is not, nor should be, equal time and space given to all opinions about a subject. We only reflect what the reputable sources say, and aim to do so in a manner that's roughly proportional to the weight of a given position. If you feel strongly about an issue, keep in mind this is not a forum. There are plenty of places to have sprited discussions about these topics on the internet. This Talk page is solely for specific changes and recommendations abotu article content. The more specific, the more likely people will engage with you. Rants are just short of useless without constructive recommendations. Keep in mind, your personal "truth" may not jibe with others. in the end, it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks is the truth...we are not here to make truth, we are here to report what the RSs say. That's all. If you have an issue with these policies, wiki may not be the best place for you to express yourself.204.65.34.29 (talk) 22:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm the second poster. You have to note the following: I'm NOT "new to the site", and I really don't need your lecturing. I pretty well know the process how scientific consensus is formed, and I know Wikipedia is trying to look like it is guided by the scientific process (but is failing all the time miserably). So please stop this lecturing, you are insulting me, and insulting others is against the guidelines. As for the article we're talking about, you have to note that it is very very far from what we can call "peer reviewed", and frankly it is mostly propaganda. To illustrate this, just check out the section headed "thermobaric weapons". It cites four sources in a single paragraph, two from the US, one from the zionist entity and the BBC. These are hardly independent sources of course. The last sentence is a downright lie, it refers to a strange and most likely faked incident, you are kindly referred to the source to check it out yourself. The sentence says as a matter of fact that government used napalm. Even the BBC source doesn't say that. The whole article is like this. So, this is why I call this propaganda. If you really want to see a balanced and nuanced approach, please go to http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page and please stop insulting me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.1.107.34 (talk) 16:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Despite many such remarks, this site willfully refuses to take one bit of notice - why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.84.221 (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC) P.S: Why is this article still "protected", and when will Wiki address concerns that led to it being protected? For it seems that this Talk(ing shop) Page will continue to act to side-line concerns.

G20: Rebels did Gas attack statement

Putin: Syria chemical attack is ‘rebels' provocation in hope of intervention’ There was no 50/50 split of opinion (at G20) on the notion of a military strike against the Syrian President Bashar Assad, Putin stressed refuting earlier assumptions.

Only Turkey, Canada, Saudi Arabia and France joined the US push for intervention, he said, adding that the UK Prime Minister’s position was not supported by his citizens.

Russia “will help Syria” in the event of a military strike, Putin stressed as he responded to a reporter’s question at the summit.

http://rt.com/news/putin-g20-syria-meeting-511/

No hysteria please, objectivity only. 21:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Heh, will even this get the usual choir to nag about RT not being a reliable source? FunkMonk (talk) 22:31, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you suggesting RT has a record of misquoting Putin? Looks like wsj can confirm some of this. What's the problem? TippyGoomba (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

No RT is professional, it quotes Putin correctly. I was pleasantly surprised to find how much depth and breadth of coverage RT has. I know Americans who visit RT to find out whats going on in the USA. Re the G20 MSM in USA and Australia is not reporting fully how little support Obama has for an illegal non UN approved Syrian strike. I think this ref should be used in the article to present an article that shows the different stances ie. BRICs, not just the Western one Blade-of-the-South (talk) 04:55, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

“The categorical objections were raised by Russia, China, India and Indonesia – and I would like to call your attention to the fact that this is the world’s largest Islamic country in terms of the population – Argentina, Brazil, South Africa and Italy,” Putin said. [2] Albany Tribune and BBC [3], and The Hindu [4]. USchick (talk) 05:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

blablabla, Putin doesn't know what he says: 11x G-20 countries plus Spain have signed a Joint Statement on Syria: Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Kingdom and the United States of America [5] (Germany signed up a day later [6]). Isolation looks a lot different than that... especially as you only have 19 countries in the G20, the 20th member is the EU, who today supported action in Syria too! So: out of 20 members 12 say Syria is guilty and action needs to follow, Mexico is neutral and Russia stands with 6 others... 12 against 7! Putin needs to learn some math. noclador (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

noclador again you are another who misses the point of neutrality (on purpose?). Yes now later as events unfold 10 members plus USA signed a statement on Syria. But there was no joint statement on Syria, despite a 20-minute one-on-one talk between Obama and Putin on the sidelines of the summit on Friday. Obama did manage to persuade ten other G20 countries to sign a statement calling for what it calls a ‘strong international response’ in Syria but the statement fell short of endorsing military action. The EU came in later. Hardly ground breaking stats. Imagine if in the US elections the Democrats got 55% of the cast votes (at summits end) but the Wikipedia article on it only stressed the Democrat 55% leaving out the other, what is a substantial percentage, almost parity in fact. Thats powerfully biased coverage right. If one more country voted no or was neutral at summits end Obama would have got 50%. Thats why Im going to put some balance in.

Re this article and a possible consequences section. I would also like to point out some possible consequences for the USA of this proposed Syrian strike by the USA against the wishes of Russia China. China Russia hold 25% of all foreign held US Treasury paper. In short by dumping they could collapse the US economy. Something to watch. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-06/how-many-treasurys-do-russia-and-china-own. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Please stay on topic, see WP:NOTFORUM. Is anyone suggesting an edit? I'm not sure if we want to put these Putin quotes in the article. 03:11, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Nope, I am not " missing the point of neutrality"; and you're mixing things up! I have an issue with Putin not telling the full picture in his G-20 press conference. Also you only focus on the US not having full support of the G-20... 55% is still much more than the 35% Mr. Putin can muster. Also: if one includes the EU it is 60% to 35%, that is still an almost twice as strong majority support for the US position! (And NOT almost parity)! The point is not - as you claim one of neutrality or biased coverage - but one of deliberate mis-information by the President of Russia. noclador (talk) 06:15, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand the thread of this argument, I think someone is trying to argue Russia has a credible position?! Isnt that prima facie obviously untrue? Russia is defending Assad in the face of evidence - Russia does not claim to have contradictory evidence, they have simply argued anyway, without evidence. Also, the list of who agrees with the USA is much longer then that - Australia is also condemning the syrian government use of chemical weapons.... Ottawakismet (talk) 13:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

FT please refrain from misusing WP:NOTFORUM as you did above and in a previous thread. You have no consensus. Here is what was said to you in another thread even longer than this one by User:DIREKTOR. 'FT, you clearly misunderstand WP:NOTFORUM. Kindly refrain from messing with posts you personally disagree with and/or are annoyed by. Also please try to keep your language civil.

The point of the thread is that there is no hard evidence yet that Sarin? was deployed by Assad / Syria. This is not reflected in the article. Nor has there been a G20 joint statement stating there is hard evidence. Its all speculation right now. Even a UN report saying it was Sarin that was used, only identifies the chemical agent, not the group who fired it. Neutrality should reflect these facts not political maneuvering. Hopefully these issues will sort out soon. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Apart from an (unconfirmed) YouTube Video, just what hard evidence is there that the Syrian government gassed it's own people? And, while the rebels have good reason/s to stage yet another attack, why would the Syrian government willingly cross the "Red Line" and invite the US to bomb them? While Assad might be bad - he ain't mad. Let's get real here people. 78.147.84.221 (talk) 20:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

"On 5 August, another chemical attack by the Syrian army was reported by the opposition, who documented the injured with video footage. The activists claim up to 400 people were effected by the attack in Adra and Houma of the Damascus suburbs." Unless backed up with hard evidence, should not rebel claims be deleted? For, apart from unconfirmed (staged?) Youtube videos, what evidence is there that such events took place?

This site is not a cheer-leader for the Free Syrian Army. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.115.90 (talk) 11:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

P.S: In the Chemical Weapons Section there is an “Unverfied image of people in Ghouta killed by a chemical attack in August 2013”. Should this site use staged-looking and unconfirmed images? 84.13.9.197 (talk) 22:32, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Who is who in Syrian Goverment

I stumbled across this article which present an interesting chart of the Syrian Government, which might be of use for the editors. --PLNR (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Who is the Washington Institute for Near East Policy?

According to Wikipedia, WINEP "is a think tank based in Washington, D.C. focused on United States foreign policy in the Middle East. Established in 1985,the institute's mission statement states that it seeks to advance a balanced and realistic understanding of American interests in the Middle East and to promote the policies that secure them."

Just happened to "stumbled across" this? 2.96.115.90 (talk) 11:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Part of the Arab Spring?

The Arab Spring ended in most of the Middle East over a year ago (two years ago? Time flies). Syrian conflict came late into the game and is much larger in scale than the rest of the Arab Spring combined. Can we really call it part of the Arab Spring? 96.54.76.154 (talk) 05:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm Blade-of-the-South (talk) 06:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You can call it whatever you want. Editors should be more interested in what reliable sources say. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

In what sense has it ended in any country.they are all still suffering political turmoil.108.175.224.13 (talk) 10:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Historians will name it. At the moment we cannot know if it's a part of Arab Spring still or World War III already. Keep it as it is. --Emesik (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

RS are calling it part of the Arab Spring [7] USchick (talk) 20:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

all conflicts resulting from the protest movements and its subsequent repressions are part of the Arab spring. Sopher99 (talk) 12:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Part of the Arab Spring - or a US backed "Color Revolts"? 2.96.115.90 (talk) 11:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Numbers of Iranians in Syria

It has already been mentioned in the article that: "On 17 June it was reported by a journalist for the Independent that Iran was sending 4,000 Revolutionary Guards to fight in Syria. Iranian officials denied that claim." However, this number has not been mentioned in the infobox under "Strength". Is the fact that Iranian officials have denied this a reason to leave it out? If nobody reacts on this in 3 days I will put the number of 4,000 next to the 150 already mentioned with the appropriate source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomvasseur (talk • contribs) 20:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

You may put it once you provide a source claiming that these soldiers arrived to Syria. Until then we may assume they are underway or even have never left Iran. --Emesik (talk) 12:23, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The Iranian government denying it does not illegitimate the number. If Nusra and ISIS denies things, do we remove them from the article? No. Sopher99 (talk) 12:48, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

SpidErxD removed the number of 4,000, because there was no source about whether or not they have already arrived. However, a Dutch journalist Roozbeh Kaboly has received a video showing Iranians working and fighting with Syrian soldiers. I know this video doesn't show 4,000 soldiers, but can it serve as an indication that they have been deployed. I will again wait 3 days before making the change if no good counter-argument (if nobody else has).
I would also like to ask SpidErxD to go into more discussion with regard to more substantive edits. I don't want to sound bossy, but looking at the view history of today you do tend to make chances very easily. E.g. his changing of the SILF flag (visible in the view history, but not on the articcle itself) from the NSC flag to the/an islamist flag for example does not, or insufficiently take into account, that other sources used on this page mention that the SILF seems to be against the "Caliphate" ideas of other islamist groups & in support of keeping a national Syrian state. This is not to say that, that change shouldn't have been made, but i think a discussion is first needed.--Tomvasseur (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

This is the complete video posted without any subtitles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Hage91cDo
This is an al-Jazeera report about it from 9/09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yom8mXrmVsg
Here is the first news item I saw it is worth watching, because of the subtitles of the original video
http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/551176-syrian-militia-trained-in-iran.html
--Tomvasseur (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Videos on Youtube don't prove a thing. It was never confirmed these soldiers ever arrived, so it should not be included. FunkMonk (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Well as Sopher said the fact that Iranian or Syrian authorities haven't confirmed anything is not really a good reason. As shown above there have been reports from several news organisations concerning this material and the Independent ran a non-connected story about Iran commissioning 4,000 soldiers to go to Iran. Remember that military advisors generally do not engage in combat. I wont put the 15 minute YT video in, because of WP:PRIMARY, but the al-Jazeera, Independent, and (English subtitled) Nieuwsuur sources are acceptible going by WP:NEWSORG. I will be conservative and add that "possibly larger Iranian military presence". I will not put an exact number down, but given the source material a mentioning is warranted. --Tomvasseur (talk) 14:51, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The New Yorker btw also mentioned there being "thousands" of Quds in Syria (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/09/30/130930fa_fact_filkins?currentPage=all), but I don't know where they got that from and it's a very vague estimate so while they normally do good work I wont put this as a source.--Tomvasseur (talk) 15:04, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Government fomenting sectarian violence in lead

User:Sopher99 just made this edit [8] supported by these two references, [9][10].

While the lead sentence used to read "According to columnist Feras Abu-Helal and former Homs resident Hassan Ali..." it now reads, "According to Homs residents, witnesses, columnists and analysts, the sectarian undertone was purposefully spread by the Assad government in an attempt to form disunity and quarreling among the restive population." The only columnist is Abu-Helal, however, and the only witness I could find making that statement is Hassan Ali.

If there are more, can those please be demonstrated using quotes here, either from these sources or otherwise? The government relies on its minority Alawite base and I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. Nevertheless we shouldn't make an army of "residents, witnesses, columnists and analsysts" from two people: Abu-Helal and Ali. -Darouet (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 is well known for blaming Assad for all the evil of the world. He stubbornly adds ramblings of some individuals like it was a well-established fact. I try to remove such bullshit but the 1RR limitations are too strict to compete with his productivity.

As for the sectarianism, it is deeply rooted in the decades-long concentration of power within Alawite hands. These internal tensions and clear sectarian divide of external supporters (Shi'a Iran and Hezbollah behind Assad / Sunni Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey behind rebels) are factors of no lesser importance than use of Shabiha militia. We have already a lot of sources on this topic and no sane author points to a single reason for the sectarian nature of the conflict. The lede needs a general re-edit, but I'm too busy now to do it. --Emesik (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that huge mass of sectarian blabber belongs in the lede to begin with.

I think " In late 2012 UN report described the conflict as "overtly sectarian in nature", though both opposition and government forces denied that. " is enough for a lede, and everything else regarding sectarianism should be removed. Sopher99 (talk) 17:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Sopher, I think your proposal is fine. -Darouet (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Sopher do you have quotes from those two or from other articles that show what you've written into the lead? -Darouet (talk) 19:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Removed. Sophers lead insert Statement is not supported by the refs and is weak. This is also far to flimsy and not lead material. one or two people does not make a lead sentence. Expand in body in a NPOV manner if more refs are found, at all. Use this as guideline WP:LEAD Blade-of-the-South (talk) 00:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

As a long-term Cheer-Leader for the rebels - and someone who continues to sex-up the case against the Syrian Government - should not Sopher work for the British or US Governments? 2.96.115.90 (talk) 11:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

USA support Give money, Armed and Trained the Rebels Groups in Syria Sources

US Support the Rebels there are some a few sources about it http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10283758/First-Syria-rebels-armed-and-trained-by-CIA-on-way-to-battlefield.html http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-cia-delivering-light-weapons-syria-112406067--politics.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/28/us-aid-to-syrian-rebels_n_2780864.html http://news.yahoo.com/u-providing-lethal-aid-syrian-rebels-opposition-spokesman-215525662.html http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/09/12/world/u-s-starts-shipping-arms-to-syrian-rebels-escalating-its-role-in-conflict/#.UjM4Oz-z2x8 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/12/sources-cia-delivering-light-weapons-to-syrian-rebels/ http://rt.com/usa/us-weapons-syrian-rebels-745/ http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/post-cia-weapons-syria/2013/09/11/id/525227 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/09/cia-begins-weapon-delivery-moderate-syrian-rebels/69325/ http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2013/09/u-s-providing-some-lethal-aid-to-syrian-rebels-opposition-spokesman-2549906.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/us-aid-to-syrian-rebels http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Opposition-US-providing-some-lethal-aid-to-Syrian-rebels-325818 http://www.headlineclicker.com/2013/09/us-providing-lethal-aid-syrian-rebels-opposition-spokesman.html#.UjM7nT-z1d8 http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2021804456_weaponssyriaxml.html http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57602575/report-cia-delivering-arms-to-syria-rebels/ http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-expand-non-lethal-aid-syrian-rebels http://www.business-standard.com/article/politics/us-non-lethal-aid-reaches-syrian-rebels-after-months-of-delay-113091200444_1.html http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/02/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/10/us-syria-crisis-usa-rebels-idUSBRE9891EZ20130910 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/28/us-aid-to-syrian-rebels_n_2780864.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.203.101.71 (talk) 16:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

This is already covered in the article, see Syrian civil war#Support for the opposition. Were you proposing any specific improvements? VQuakr (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

But how well? Remember the neutrality of the article is disputed 09:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

USA is supporting Rebels via Saudia Arabiya and Qatar. USA is not supporting Rebels directly. SpidErxD (talk) 13:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Mr Obama said that a 50-man cell, believed to have been trained by US special forces in Jordan, was making its way across the border into Syria. New York Times. But the USA is "not supporting Rebels directly"? 78.147.80.152 (talk) 20:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The article is (much) too long; let’s put § 2 (Events) in a sub-article

A large majority of us (active Wikipedia-editors) will probably agree that this article ‘Syrian civil war’ is (much) too long. Downloading the article, or any operation on it, usually takes undesirably and unnecessary long times. I therefore fully support the message that was put on top of the article on 4 September 2013, saying: “This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably. Please consider splitting content into sub-articles and/or condensing it.” (For reasons I don’t understand, someone on 5 September shortened that message to: “This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably.”) I think all of us (active Wikipedians) who are interested in this article should make an effort to shorten it, by condensing one or several of its longer sections, by making more or better use of sub-articles.

This, I suppose, can or should even be done drasticly. Today, the article had length 272,036 bytes which at my homecomputer equals 42 full screens; perhaps we should strive towards a length of approximately 15 or 10 of such fullscreens (= 97,000 to 65,000 bytes), or even less, to make it comfortably manageable on most computers. But even without agreeing on some final goal, we perhaps can agree on a need for vigorously cutting back.

One first, robust step reducing the length of the article at once with 30% would be moving the entire section 2 (‘Uprising and civil war’, relating mostly chronological the events of the uprising and the civil war up till now) to a sub-article, called: ‘Events in the Syrian uprising and civil war’. The summary in our main article ‘Syrian civil war’ in section 2, apart from directing towards ‘Main article: Events in the Syrian uprising and civil war’, might at first run somewhat like: “A short summary of the uprising and war up until now can be found in the lead section of this article Syrian civil war”. Consecutively, that new sub-article ‘Events in…’ can probably be improved, perhaps issuing into a (preliminary) lead section in that sub-article of say 300 words; leading up again to an improved summary of say approximately 100 words in section 2 of the main article (‘Syrian civil war#Events’). Corriebertus (talk) 10:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

97k bytes is extraordinarily short for an article with this magnitude of info. We should cut it back down to the 200k limit instead. Sopher99 (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

See the following section for a possible sub article split: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syrian_civil_war/Archive_29#Background_article.3F FunkMonk (talk) 15:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The move of FutureTrillionaire on the article, 16 Sept 19:03, I do not understand. A tag was put on top of the article, by FutureTrillionaire, 4 Sep 00:35, saying the article was too long. So I made yesterday the suggestion (see above), in this discussion section, te shorten it by using a sub-article 'Events'. Nobody made an objection as far as I could see; so I split off that sub-article; and now it is reverted by FTrill. Please, can you explain? The info is not lost, it's only placed in a sub-article, just for practical reasons, just doing what the tag asked since 4 Sept. Have you changed your mind, are you now against sub-articles? You say in your edit summary: “The main point of a war article is to present the events in the war” . I would answer: Wikipedia is still presenting all those events, but after one click extra, in a sub-article; section 2 (‘Events’, or any name you would prefer) is by far the longest section, therefore the best option to (quickly) shorten the article; all sections in the article are very important, I can’t see why one section could never be condensed by using a sub-article; I consider the extreme length of this article to be an extremely important problem, which needs really quick mending, that is to say really quick shortening. We are not making Wikipedia for ourselves, but for the thousands (millions?) of people around the world who easily and quickly want to read about this war. Therefore, articles must be short, making clever use of sub-articles, sub-sub-articles, and so forth. With all due respect, FutureTrillionaire himself/herself has since 4 Sep not (as far as I can see) made any effort on shortening the article (with sub-articles) – nor has anyone else, for that matter. So I ask once again: is the length of the article a problem – which I really believe – or is it not? If it is not, remove that tag. Corriebertus (talk) 20:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the article is too long and that the Events section is perhaps the major thing which makes it too long. It provides quite excessive blow-by-blow description of events in the war; what is needed is relatively brief summary of major events and of the key influences, turning points, ebb-and-flow of power etc. I do find that making subarticles helps with turning such excessive description into something briefer and more helpful without loss of information, because you end up making a lead section for the new subarticle that often works pretty well as a summary for use in the main article. My only concern in this instance is that we also have Timeline articles (day-by-day detail) and key event articles (eg Al-Qusayr offensive) and there is a risk of excessive duplication. But anyway, an Events article with a brief summary here is probably the best way to handle this. Podiaebba (talk) 20:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Podiaebba, thanks for discussing. I understand, you would appreciate a subarticle ‘Events’ (‘perhaps the major thing which makes the article too long’) for several reasons, one of them is, such a subarticle would contain and provide a brief, summarized description in the lead section. That, however, is only true after someone has endeavoured to write such summary. (It would seem a rather difficult job, I believe.) I invite and encourage everyone to write such a summary. However, I believe we don’t have to wait with putting section 2 in a subarticle until such short summary is achieved and written. As long as it is not written, we can direct the reader to the lead section of Syrian civil war for some short summary. You may consider that not ideal, and I would agree; but on the other hand it is no deterioration from the present situation we have now. I believe, and repeat to say, that shortening the article now, immediately (= really rather soon), is desirable and required for technical reasons: long articles pose (many?) readers for (unnecessary, avoidable) techical problems. These problems are discussed for example in: Wikipedia:Article size lead section, and section Wikipedia:Article size#Technical issues, and in Wikipedia:Splitting#Size split.

By the way: I’m surprised and disappointed that so few Wikipedians join in this discussion. Does no one then agree with the ‘too long’-tag above the artcile? Does no one see, we pose readers for (unneeded) (technical) problems with this extreme long page (= article)? Corriebertus (talk) 17:27, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, you should check the article's page history - on 17 Sep it was dramatically shortened. Some stuff was moved to Fighting during the Syrian civil war; this page was then merged into Timeline of the Syrian civil war. A lot of other stuff was "trimmed". This is a lot of changes and whilst the general thrust of it makes sense, someone more familiar with the material should really have a closer look. Podiaebba (talk) 18:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for bringing this to my attention. I had indeed not looked at that page history. I agree, it is shortened dramaticly. At this moment I have not the time to look it over in detail, so I can't yet give an opinion about the qualitiy of those changes since 17 Sep. Bye, --Corriebertus (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Valgria

Valgria was a small town, recently destroyed by a misdirected mortar strike. Around 450 of the 500-550 inhabitants are now deceased, many of which were women and children.

Kydon Shadow (talk) 17:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Any source? Justicejayant (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

BTW Hi Sopher99, and all others, how are you doing? Do anyone even remember me? :P I wanted to say you all managed this page really well, keep it up. Justicejayant (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Arabic doesn't even have the "v" and "g" sounds. Moreover, the supposed "author" doesn't seem to exist, and "monitors" and "inspectors" are both misspelled. Either this is all sourced to a shitty WP:SPS with no online presence written by a no-name author with a "Google Translate"-level command of Arabic and grade-school command of English, or an outright WP:HOAX. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

IHS Jane's - half of rebels are jihadists or Islamists

Article's a bit of a mess, so I'm not immediately clear what to do with this... but this analysis by IHS Jane's needs to be mentioned. Syria: nearly half rebel fighters are jihadists or hardline Islamists, says IHS Jane's report. Podiaebba (talk) 15:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Free Syrian Army: 50,000[4] - 80,000[24] Syria Syrian Islamic Liberation Front: 37,000[4] (by May 2013) Syrian Islamic Front: 13,000[4] (by May 2013) Al-Nusra Front: 6,000[4] (by June 2013) Foreign Mujahideen: 10,000

37,000 + 13,000 + 6,000 + 10,000 = 66,000

While the Fsa makes up 50,000 - 80,000.

So its already in the article. Sopher99 (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not a source in the article, and the current sourcing from multiple sources seems to confuse independent estimates with groups' own claims without distinguishing them. And I don't see any discussion of different estimates or how things have changed over time. This needs to be improved. Podiaebba (talk) 16:07, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It should be inserted as a source, but not treated as definitive. The group that is advancing this estimate is notable, but it's just one estimate and shouldn't be regarded as the final word. But it's absolutely germane to this article and wasn't in there before, contra Sopher99. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The report states that there is a total of around 100.000 fighters, fragmented into as many as 1,000 bands, which are battling the Syrian Army and you are still putting the FSA numbers between 50,000-80,000?. Those numbers btw are according to the FSA's leadership. If there are 100,000 fighters, fragmented into 1,000 bands, and half of them being jihadists, fundamentalists, islamist etc. then every single fighter in the other "moderate" group would have to be a member of the FSA, just so we would get to the cca 50,000 number. Just to think that, we would have to be very optimistic, if not naïve. If there would be 50,000-80,000 FSA in Syria then they would definetly be top dog among the groups fighting the Syrian Army and that clearly isn't the case on the field. I mean, the 10,000 jihadists force is killing FSA commanders at will and they are the one controlling the north of the country. What does the "80,000 strong" FSA control then?

• "The stark assessment, to be published later this week, accords with the view of Western diplomats estimate that less than one third of the opposition forces are "palatable" to Britain, while American envoys put the figure even lower." - FSA is "palatable" to Britain and the US, so I guess you need to look the FSA strength in that max one third or even less. 15,000-30,000 would be far more realistic, considering what is happening on the field of battle. The hardest fighting of the Syrian army is against jihadists and fundamentalists.Ratipok (talk) 19:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course its not in the article. This from it '... puts the number of rebel forces at around 100,000. And half of this number are combatants on an ideological crusade against the west, who are partially or fully affiliated with Al Qaeda'. Needs updating in a NPOV manner Blade-of-the-South (talk) 04:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Business Insider breakdown of the rebel numbers

• 12,000 - Al-Qaeda: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Al-Nusra etc.
• 18,000 - Syrian Islamic Front: Ahrar ash-Sham, etc.
• 9,000 - Suqour al-Sham (technically SILF, but more fundamentalist)
• 25,000 - Syrian Islamic Liberation Front: Liwa Al-Tawhid, Liwa al-Islam, Farouq Brigades
  • 5,000 - 15 other groups
• 31,000 - Rest of the Free Syrian Army
• LINK: [11] Ratipok (talk) 01:23, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Lister's analysis is the main source for this breakdown. Additionally, the "15 other groups" are part of SILF. You've also misidentified the umbrella groups like SILF and SIF as on par with their consituent groups. I've tweaked your presentation accordingly, hope you don't mind. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

No problem at all. PS: Shouldn't we update the opposition strength section on the main page? It seems the current numbers are old and outdated considering the facts on the field. Ratipok (talk) 12:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Use of the "Foreign Involvement" section

While obviously foreign involvement is very important in this conflict this section doesn't do well for the article. Besides that it lacks any references it doesn't offer information distinguitive enough for a separate section. I suggest looking at what parts from "Foreign Involvement" aren't reiterations of what has been written elsewhere & merge the rest either with "International reaction" or "Non-state parties in the conflict". I also suggest renaming "International Reaction" "Reaction from the international community", because then it is more clearly separated from the foreign non-state parties. --Tomvasseur (talk) 21:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Emirati press reporting KNC has joined SNC

Apparently the Kurdish National Council agreed to join forces with the Syrian National Council after the latter agreed to rename the Syrian Arab Republic by dropping the "Arab" part. As yet unclear whether this has actually changed things on the ground. Figured I'd leave it here and see what involved editors think should be done: [12] -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Purely political, won't have any effect on the ground. The KNC is just as weak and divided as SNC, merging the two will only compound that. The KNC had to fight tooth and nail to even get "Arab" dropped from the name, and had to set aside many of their demands for human rights and recognition in exchange for a vague "recognition of nationhood" due to the virulent Arab chauvinism that the SNC carries over from the Ba'ath. SMC chief Salim Idriss even came out with a statement on the heels of this denouncing "Kurdish separatism" as a threat to the "Arab lands" of the "Syrian Arab Republic"—the KNC is still part of the DBK (Supreme Kurdish Council) together with the PYD, which is currently spearheading an autonomisation project in the liberated Kurdish areas.

KNC parties have virtually no armed presence on the ground. Part of this is due to the fact that most of the constituent parties are extremely small and can't muster up sufficient manpower to gain votes, let alone take up arms. Part of it is due to the fact that the PYD keeps a tight lid on unapproved militias, at once avoiding weakening Kurdish military strength (cf. "FSA") and monopolising military force to its political advantage. A few PUK-aligned parties do have small armed units, but these are fully incorporated into the YPG (which is de facto controlled by the PYD).

As to what should be done: nothing in the infobox, for sure. The infobox is for military purposes, and this isn't going to do jack shit in terms of that. Maybe a brief note in the body, but this shouldn't be overblown.

I've also changed this header to a more accurate title. "Kurds" have been in the SNC for a while now (very few of them, though, only fringe groups like Mustaqbal), and "Kurds" have not defected to the SNC en masse. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

"its Shia militia allies"

Why was this reverted? How is "pro-government militias" a more inclusive and better term? Alawism is an off shoot of Shia Islam. The word Shia is commonly used to refer to followers of the Twelver branch, not offshoots of the denomination. Many don't even consider Alawites to be Muslims. Also, many militiamen are Christian, which clearly don't fit in the " Shia militia allies" category.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 07:08, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, Alawite translates as "one who follows Ali". This is clearly in line with core Shia doctrine which revolves around Ali, never midn the fact they follow Shia hadiths. Also, There are other groups which are non-Alawite Shias, including Twelver and Zaydi. Alawited can be called both a hyponym and a synonym of Shia. There are a dozen branches within Shia Islam. It doesn't make one less Shia than the other because it is smaller. As for Christian militias, i agree there are, but that would fall under WP:UNDUE weight. As for whether Alawites are Muslim, anyone who follows the Quran and hadith is cleary a Muslim to me. Pass a Method talk 07:23, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Re, 'anyone who follows the Quran and hadith is cleary a Muslim to me', sounds reasonable Blade-of-the-South (talk) 07:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Mainstream Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, regarded them (Alawites) as ghulta, “exaggerators.” --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Two problems. Firstly, thats a blog, which is usually regarded os lower quality. Secondly, usage of words such as "mainstream" usually indicates some level of impartiality, and is unacceptable. Its the equivalent of calling Catholics "heretics". Furthermore, i could easily find sources denouncing Twelvers as non-mainstream, and could do the same for just about any other Islamic sect. Also, the constitution of Syria says the president MUST be Muslim. How Did an Alawite become president if he's non-Muslim? And why are there videos online showing Alawites praying just like Shias do mosques? Pass a Method talk 16:15, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Please revise your word choice: [13]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Some extreme Sunnis don't eve consider Shias Muslims, but these same Sunnis have no problem with labelling Alawites as Shias. So it is more complicated than your average westerners gather from their media, which is full of errors. Until a few years ago, few of these westerners had even heard of Alawites before. And now they act as if they're experts on the matter. Quite funny, actually. FunkMonk (talk) 12:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Calm down and clam up

at least coming to a subject without a preset mindset might make them westerlings a bit objective - like you don't even think Alawites and the regime kill people for sectarian reasons - don't ever 'kill Sunnis because they are Sunnis' - but are you right? [14] Sayerslle (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC) The regime does not kill anyone for not being Alawite, but for being connected to Salafists. On the other hand, the Salafists kill people for simply not being Sunni. This should be obvious by now. Ignorance of history and culture does not make one objective, just ignorant. As for individual massacres, no comment, there is too much fuzziness about their circumstances. FunkMonk (talk) 20:08, 21 September 2013 (UTC) 'As for individual massacres, no comment, there is too much fuzziness about their circumstances' - you could be a spokesman , that's excellent. Sayerslle (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Rather that than being a useful idiot for a cause that doesn't concern me/I don't understand. Disclaimer: that isn't necessarily directed at anyone here. Hell, it could be McCain. And since when was being sceptical towards wartime propaganda a bad thing? Remember Iraq one and two? Or "gay Girl in Damascus" and Zeinab al-Hosni for that matter? FunkMonk (talk) 20:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Iraq war 1 was propaganda? Thats a new one. Its very ironic when such a shia enthusiast is calling iraq war 2 propaganda when Iran applauded and encouraged the invasion of Iraq, and is STILL happy with the results. Gay girl from Damascus? Thats so 2011 man. There wasn't even a single rebel in Syria when that happened. You have to go back to a source two years ago to find a lying incident. I only have to look back two days. http://altwire.utne.com/rt_story/occupy_new/syria-rebel-chemicals-mystery-deepens-as/377555553839746a707765526556654955484f6569673d3d Sopher99 (talk) 20:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Lol at the pathetic smear. "Shia enthusiast"? What does that even mean? I guess every secular Socialist Arab is a "Shia enthusiast" then. We can't all be American Twitter-white knights, I'm afraid. Seems you forgot the Kuwaiti incubator lie during Iraq war 1 (the Kuwaiti regime is Sunni, if you didn't know). And there were armed Salafists in Syria waiting for the "uprising" long before 2011. FunkMonk (talk) 20:29, 21 September 2013 (UTC) I'm sorry, your right. Theres nothing to be enthusiastic about the current shia identity right now when its dominated by idiots like nasrallah and khamanei. And yes salifists were waiting for an uprising long before 2011. They waited all the way up to 1982. Sopher99 (talk) 20:33, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Heheh, Nasrallah is "an idiot", but I guess someone like Idriss or Riad al-Assad is a "genius"? Or what are you trying to say? You think anyone here cares what you personally think about anything? FunkMonk (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Genius comes from the word genuine. Idiots are not genuine, they are many a times commonplace. You could be smart but not genuinely smart. Idriss is good in that regard, riad assad hasn't shown anything in particular other than determination and enthusiasm. Sopher99 (talk) 20:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC) So if you compare their track records with that of Nasrallah, you maintain that he is an idiot in comparison? That's pretty amazing. Militarily, Hezbollah is leagues ahead of any other Arab army or militia. This is common knowledge, not propaganda. Idriss and his ilk are mere amateurs (just like the regular Syrian Army that spawned them), long sidelined by al-Qaeda, but they're so weak they have to suck it up. And even the latter only has numbers going for them, not quality. They are good at clinging on to vast, useless deserts so that the Washington Post has a large area it can attribute to the FSA on their little coloured maps, I'll give them that. FunkMonk (talk) 20:48, 21 September 2013 (UTC) The biggest idiot here is obviously the Lebanese government. After the 2006 fiasco, you'd think they would stop harboring Shia terrorists. The longer Hezbollah stays, the more likely Lebanon is going to get bombed back to the stone age.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:52, 21 September 2013 (UTC) See that's exactly the kind of simplistic drivel that gets the world nowhere. Lebanon "harbours" (as if they have a choice) both Shia and Sunni militants. But only the former are deemed terrorists because they're a threat to Israel and US/Gulf interests. Yet only the latter regularly kills non-combatants from those countries. FunkMonk (talk) 14:29, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Massive changes by User:FutureTrillionaire

I strongly oppose the recent massive changes and selective removal of contents by User:FutureTrillionaire, and replacing them with POVed contents (e.g. "The Syrian government has been accused of conducting several chemical attacks, the most serious of them being the 2013 Ghouta attacks", as if only the Syrian govt has been accused of the attack, and only the government has been accused of chemical attacks). Since this is a sensitive article, I believe such changes are unacceptable without prior discussion. --Z 11:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

All major, controversial revisions should be discussed before being implemented, especially if they add POV material. If his revision is too biased, revert him. FunkMonk (talk) 11:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is perfect, neither mr/mrs FutureTrillionaire (FT), but let us assume good faith in his highly needed, and welcomed, efforts to shorten the article (see also Talk:Syrian civil war#The article is (much) too long; let’s put § 2 (Events) in a sub-article, 15-19 Sept). The need of drastic shortening of the article was undisputed since 4 September. Possibly FT has summarized some sections; possibly someone is not satisfied with some summaries; so let him improve such summaries, not accuse FT of deliberately biasing the article. Corriebertus (talk) 09:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Deleted image

What happened to the War in Syria.jpg image? The one that contains 8 different images which was used as a cover image by many of the articles in various languages. Thisissparta12345 (talk) 11:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Islamic Liberation Front are Islamist(sectarian) or not?

Syrian Islamic Liberation Front(SILF) and Ahfad al-Rasul Brigade are Islamists(i mean sectarian). Free Syrian Army(FSA) is non-sectarian(FSA declare themselves non-sectarian). According to Reuters and PolicyMic and AmericaProgress.

FSA, SILF, SIF, independent brigades, regional military councils all are part of SMC according to American Progress .org.SpidErxD (talk) 12:25, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

SILF is moderate Islamist (ikhwani-style). SIF is radical-Salafist and is only very weakly linked to the SMC (if you'll bother to look at the report carefully)—in fact, it coordinates probably even more closely with al-Qaida (Ahrar al-Sham and Nusra/ISIS are currently running the show in Raqqa after expelling Ahfad al-Rasul). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:49, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Why does it matter if they're Islamists or not when concerning the presentation of the infobox? Infobox shows who are friends and who are enemies. It does not matter what their ideology is. FSA and SILF are both incorporated in the SMC and cooperate, even though they have different ideologies.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 02:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Whats the point of dividing them by ideology? Firstly, that is common practise on several articles accross wikipedia. Secondly, Why do you insist on deleting all mention of sectarianism, both on the template and on the article? Do you need to see individual journalists in person before you believe a news story or something? Pass a Method talk 14:55, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I recognize that sectarianism is a big part of the conflict, but the purpose of a military infobox is to show alliances and enemies. It doesn't matter what their ideology is. The FSA and SILF cooperate despite different ideologies. Seperating them with a heading "Sunni mjahideen" suggests a lack of cooperation between the FSA and the Jihadists. For a compromise, I think we should the "Rebels" heading to "Sunni rebels" and remove the "Sunni mjahideen" sub-heading. Are you okay with this?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Off course the ideology matters. All the major news stations say that if Assad is topped it won't be the end of the war since theres so many factions with totally opposing views. Perpective matters Pass a Method talk 15:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

You're not understanding. Ideology alone does not matter in an infobox. Actual alliances does.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

It does matter if these groups define themselves by a particular ideology. This is particulary true when certain groups overlap thus making it easier to group them in categories. Pass a Method talk 16:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Alliance should be the primary dividing criterion. Ideology often leads to alliance, so it is indirectly used in the infobox. Thus, Salafi groups like SIF are grouped with al-Qaida, whereas moderates like SILF get grouped with the "FSA". Grouping moderates with radicals, however, like Spiderman seems to want to do, is just stupid. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:27, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I support going back to the original grouping, with separating FSA/SILF and others with a diving line. The argument that SILF is Islamist and should be grouped with the Jihadists rather than the FSA is flawed.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

FSA are freedom fighters(According to US media "They are non-sectarian and they want democratic govt. in Syria"), FSA use this flag. Whereas Many Rebels are Sunni-Jihadist(sectarian) and they want Islamic Shariah in Syria and they use black flag of Jihad. Both (FSA and Sunni-Jihadist) want to overthrow Assad but FSA(non sectarian) want demcratic govt and Jihadist(sectarian) want Shariah in Syria.SpidErxD (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

That's one of the most depressingly simple-minded reductions of the conflict I've seen. Not even worth discussing. Read more, talk less. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The separation has been in place for over a year. So there needed a consensus to remove it. Such a consensus has not been achieved. At the contrary, I see most people here wanting to “go back to the original grouping, with separating…” I also support this. An infobox should give readers unfamiliar with the conflict a few basic simple take away points. The 2 groups convey to the unfamiliar reader the axis (or dimension) along which the different organizations are situated, from more moderate/SMC connected to less moderate/SMC connected. Where the line is drawn is always a difficult call, however, we should approximate as best we can. Tradedia (talk) 11:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Fragmented opposition

I'm seeing a sharp upturn in reports of infighting between the FSA, al-Nusra, and ISIL over the past few weeks: [15] [16] [17] [18] We may want to consider revisiting the infobox sides if this becomes a trend. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:30, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think any action needs to be taken, they'll keep on being allies, unless the West pays them to do otherwise. The FSA will never be able to speak up to the Salafist factions, they'll just keep quiet and take the pain, they have no choice, they're too weak and too few. Note that they always downplay these clashes, because they really need the Salafists if they want to accomplish anything at all. FunkMonk (talk) 19:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

That's a pretty healthy dose of conspiracy-tinged original research. Any actual suggestions based on what reliable sources are reporting is happening in Syria? -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

You may have missed it during your absence, but that's the good Father Funk's specialty. Anyway, a lot of analysts seem to be taking a "wait and see" stance, and I'd recommend we do the same. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:35, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not about "conspiracy", it is simply looking at precedents. It has happened tonnes of times before, no indication that it will change. Changing anything here now without any basis would be unfounded in sources and original research. As for "original research: "But at least one analyst of the rebel movement said it was unlikely that such words would lead to a severing of ties between the groups, if for no other reason than the U.S.-backed rebels were dependent on the Islamic State’s battlefield prowess and its fighters’ zeal to defeat Assad’s better-equipped army.

“I don’t see the Azaz clashes as evidence of an imminent ‘FSA vs. ISIS’ war,” he said by email. “Notably, Liwa al Tawheed’s commanders still value ISIS as a military asset and were accordingly pushing for a compromise in Azaz, even as many on-the-ground supporters and lower-rank fighters are much more suspicious of ISIS.”

Tamimi also said that another FSA-affiliated group, the Farouq Brigades, which battled Islamic State fighters last week in the town of al Bab in Aleppo province, was likely to want to preserve its contacts with Islamic State fighters. Farouq leaders, he said, “stress they are brothers of ISIS in Islam, and will not accept a non-Islamic or non-Shariah-based constitution.” http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/09/20/202793/cease-fire-called-in-syria-between.html?storylink=addthis#.Uj9Xb39SXw5#storylink=cpy FunkMonk (talk) 20:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

More or less yep. Tawhid's Abdul Jabbar al-Oqaidi regards fighting against government forces as the top priority and ISIS as a "reality on the ground" [19], and his brigade's mediation in the current scuffles seems a continuation of that position (my OR, but take it as it is). At any rate, we shouldn't go around fussing about the infobox until the dust settles on this one. Lines are being drawn, sure, but some actors are moving quickly to try and erase them. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

We might consider not singling out a specific group for not getting along with the others, in that case. Doesn't seem to be limited to any one particular rebel faction. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

And my, how news breaks. Jabhat al-Nusra, Liwa' al-Tawhid, Ahrar al-Sham, Suqur al-Sham, Liwa' al-Islam, Nur al-Din Zanki Brigades, and a few other outfits have cosigned a statement disowning the SNC and proclaiming Shariah law as the only source of legislation after the election of moderate Ahmad Tu'mah as opposition PM. All this going about while there's a supposed "war on ISIS". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Huge news, if accurate all the significant "moderate Islamist" factions (with the apparent exception of Farouq Brigades) have joined with the Hardline Islamists of Ahrar al-sham and the Jihadists of al Nusra on a common platform. Noteably ISIS is absent from this new Islamic Coaltion. Gazkthul (talk) 01:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Absent, but also not mentioned in any capacity. If anything, the drift from "secular/moderate rule" toward Salafi fundamentalism bodes well for the Islamic State—provided it plays its cards right. Anyway, it's a fluid situation right now. Stay tuned... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Some good RS analysis: [20]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Bad news for overambitious western backers, but hardly changes anything on the ground. Other than alienating even more secular Sunnis, that is. FunkMonk (talk) 09:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Removal of city control map

Why was this removed but less important maps added like the map that only shows Kurdish cities? Lonjers (talk) 04:07, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The map was not “removed”. On 17 Sep, it was decided to divide the article because it was too long. So a large part of the article ended up in Timeline of the Syrian civil war. That part contained the map. So the map is there. Tradedia (talk) 08:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh cool glad it stilll exists and I support the split up. I just think that it is a much more important map than many of the ones currently shown on the main page Lonjers (talk) 01:59, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

End of alliance between islamist rebels and Syrian National Coalition

The islamist rebels in Syria have announced that they do not recognise the authority of the Syrian National Council and only fight for the objective of imposing Islamic law (Sharia) on the country, thus ending the alliance between the two groups. source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24239779

This is not an "end" of an alliance - there was no alliance to begin with. Can you give us a source showing they ever recognized the SNC in the first place? Sopher99 (talk) 15:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm just saying that the two groups shouldn't be on the same side on the list of belligerents. Thisissparta12345 (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

They're not opposed to each other, they both want Assad out, so yes they should. FunkMonk (talk) 16:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree, especially considering the SNC has virtually no control over the militancy in Syria and the Islamists are still paying lip service to Idris' command. I do, however, think it's appropriate to separate the "secular" groups that recognize the SNC from the Islamist groups with a horizontal divider. They're militarily on the same side, yes, but the political opposition is only aligned with certain factions. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Name one fighting group that is secular.just one.174.137.243.141 (talk) 16:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

There are some Palestinian groups fighting on the regime side that are quite secular. Can't say that for anything on the "rebel" side. FunkMonk (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Although this new alliance does not have a formal name yet, some of its members call it the "Islamic Alliance". It's probably premature now, but in the future it may be worth including this new alliance in the infobox.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

May be just a descriptive name. As this isn't WikiNews, we should give all this dust a moment to settle before making major changes. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:34, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Among the groups which denounced the SNC are also the Al-Tawhid Brigade, Liwa al-Islam and Suqour al-Sham Brigade which, according to Charles Lister from IHF's Jane, represented the main presence and force of the SNC on the field. What's left of the so called "moderate FSA" will probably be dealt with fairly quickly by the new alliance of the jihadists/fundamentalists/mujahideens/islamists/terrorists (or whatever they are called these days). Especially since FSA doesn't control much of the territory and their numbers are usually exaggerated. Ratipok (talk) 00:44, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I should point out that I've created Islamic Coalition (Syria). Podiaebba (talk) 22:44, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Before long, all of FSA will have been assimilated. But really, do we need articles for every minor group and arbitrary "coalition" in this war? FunkMonk (talk) 18:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)