Talk:Kanye West

Trip Hop Influence?

I don't think so. Wikipedia shouldn't post falsities, or spread them from Rolling Stone. 173.224.75.249 (talk) 23:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth Arcandam (talk) 13:35, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Change should be made to philanthropy section

As evidenced by this link. The Kanye West Foundation is being dissolved, website no longer works, after it was discovered foundation actually did nothing in terms of charitable giving the last few years.

news story — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.105.195 (talk) 15:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey Mama was written before his mother passed away. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.10.220.49 (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

2nd Fashion Show

I think his second clothing line should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.28.88 (talk) 07:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 March 2012

Twista should be listed under "associated acts"

71.214.85.31 (talk) 08:27, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. mabdul 13:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Donda West's cause of death

The surgery was liposuction and breast REDUCTION, not augmentation. The current "source" at the end of the sentence is TMZ and actually says nothing at all about the nature of the surgery. Several sources corroborate my claim:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Cosmetic/story?id=3857754&page=1 http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21742159/ns/today-entertainment/t/kanye-wests-mom-dies-after-surgery/#.T4dACe1SWBc http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/kanye-west-mom-dies-cosmetic-surgery-article-1.260506 http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20173212,00.html?xid=rss-fullcontentcnn http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_kanye_west_mom_die http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Adams

Someone with an account please fix this now. --24.5.197.145 (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Fuck it, I did it myself. --Lopside (talk) 21:17, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Genre

I think KRS-ONE knows what he is talking about, but if you have a better source with another expert that is more knowledgeable about hiphop than KRS-ONE is please let me know. Arcandam (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion continues here. Arcandam (talk) 00:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

(copied from my talk page both paragraphs below) In the end of the day basing that claim on only one person opinion, and using that source is a WP:BLP, WP:COATRACK and WP:UNDUE violation because that source is being used to change an entire genre because of one interview in which he is comparing two different rappers with two different styles. Maybe in the main body if Kanye had conflict with KRS-ONE and there is several reliable sources to back it up (and not just AllHipHop which is a borderline tabloid, they have some good, well-researched content, and some dubious content with suspicious sources, so it's a huge hit and miss) but not changing the genre to pop rap because of one opinion. You need to have Multiple reliable sources from several advantages. There's such thing as rappers with a pop appeal like Kayne is, but making it a whole genre is original research because there always been massive dispute what is considered "pop rap" between journalists, and the term mainly been used in a negative fashion (note pop rap is redirected to hip-hop). I know several of these journalists personally and they don't think of pop rap as a real appeal. And with the media he's an hip hop artist. I recommend to revert yourself because you did violate WP:3RR with the last source, and any further reverts may lead to a block.

Well the source is attacking Kanye that he isn't a rapper and saying he's only a pop artist on a six year old source, that is obviously a problematic source no matter whose the person discussing him and it shows complete disregard to WP:BLP and you already broke WP:3RR. I mentioned a few edit summaries that it isn't a reliable source and that pop rap is not really an genre. I was trying to discuss it with you, but you reverted me. Wikipedia does not go with a one person opinion. Yes he's a notable journalist and what he writes is reliable, but in the end of the day he doesn't control what the media says about hip hop nor its artists. Even AllMusic says that his genre is rap and r&b and that pop rap is a subgenre. If you could find a bunch of reliable media sources that shows a general consensus within the public that West is a "pop rap" artist, then I understand the addition, but not that source. Secret ^account 02:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

No need to reply to this, I have already completely debunked the above comments by user Secret on his talkpage. Arcandam (talk) 03:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion is null: Template:Infobox_musical_artist#genre says to aim for generality, and happens to cite "Hip hop" superseding a sub-genre or regional scene (i.e. "East Coast hip hop") as an example. As a side note, giving undue weight to KRS-One is not encyclopedic, and what the majority of actual music writers say would have been more constructive to mention, but that's neither here nor there, whatever secondary/sub-genre you think West's music is. And you shouldn't have changed (didn't explain) line 126 either, which is sourced. Unexplained/unsourced changes, particularly to genres, are usually dubious (see WP:Genre warrior), so I don't understand your using that example at my talk page in criticizing me. Dan56 (talk) 04:47, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

First off all, I noticed you made a remark in an editsummary about the fact I use many edits for a relatively simple message. This is because I am not a native speaker. Arcandam (talk) 05:13, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You seem to think that pop rap is a subgenre of hiphop. This is of course not true. Pop is a genre, and hiphop is a genre, and pop rap is a crossover between those genres. Since you have not read Secrets talkpage I would recommend you do that, especially at the bottom. Please don't be a genre warrior: read, discuss, find sources, agree/gain consensus. Arcandam (talk) 04:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Including the opinion of my cleaning lady would be undue. User Secret says KRS-ONE is a "leading expert in the hip-hop culture". I agree. What do you think? Arcandam (talk) 05:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. It's one source. It's cute that you're telling me not to be a genre warrior. Anyway, "hip pop" looks to the same user-generated fabrication that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pop rap was, before it was deleted and made into a redirect to "hip hop music". Dan56 (talk) 05:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Since a consensus should involve more than us two, I'll ask others in WP:Music related projects to comment. So stick around and don't revert that article. Thanks. Dan56 (talk) 05:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

No. Let me ask that. And read Framing effect (psychology). You shouldn't revert, you just posted an essay that said so right? Arcandam (talk) 05:25, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Not the amount, but the reliability of sources is very important on Wikipedia. That article was completely rewritten and referenced without copyvio. Arcandam (talk) 05:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't the only one who proposed these changes. As a matter of fact, another editor disputed them as well, so the original content dispute isn't with me. Dan56 (talk) 05:28, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

To your comments about it being a fusion genre, hip hop has been sampling/incorporating different styles since it began in the '70s. But there is not disco-hop, or hip-funk, or West's soul sampling being a fusion genre. What's hip hop without is sampling some kind of beat? Spoken word? And even pop music is a far more general, umbrella term for music with mainstream sensibilities, so what being fused exactly? Dan56 (talk) 05:28, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Pop and hiphop. Sorry, I am not a native speaker, if you want a good definition of the genres and an explanation of how to distinguish them it is probably better to ask someone else who is a native speaker. Please listen to False pride by KRS-ONE. That is hiphop. Arcandam (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure how to respond to your question about a name for hiphop with funk sampled in. We call that hiphop. DJ Kool Herc sampled lots of good old funk. Arcandam (talk) 05:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

It's a rhetorical question: There's no name for it, like there's not "hip pop", or "pop rap". It's not a legit/accepted term. Dan56 (talk) 05:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Then why does allmusic use it? And why do people like KRS and binary star and the complete population of Japan (amongst others) disagree with you? If you really do not understand that using a sample from another type of music is not the same thing as creating a fusion-genre then you should probably ask a native speaker who knows stuff about music. I am pretty sure other people can explain that much better than I can. Arcandam (talk) 05:45, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, that article is dubious. Matter of fact, I just removed a source/statement from there that did not match with what was being cited. That article is original research. I have no idea what population you're talking about, but the reference that was in Japanese in that article was a press release for a charity event with no mention of "hip pop". And if you're referring to this as Allmusic's affirmation, then you'd have to following the train of thought I was when considering your "fusion" genre to be a sub-genre: Allmusic files it under "hip hop/urban". Dan56 (talk) 06:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

That article should be rewritten by an expert who has lots of reliable sources. Unfortunately I am not that expert. I am unable to understand Japanese. The genre exists, and it is notable, so it should be possible to have a factual article that is properly referenced. Arcandam (talk) 06:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, the more time I spent on their site the more I start to wonder if Allmusic knows what it is doing. I think we agree Allmusic is far from perfect. But now I can answer your earlier question about other genres that hiphop was fused with. I think they made a major mistake when they decided to make a combined pop/rock category. The result is that if I want to show you Rap-Rock it is listed in the breadcrumbnavigation as "Pop/Rock » Hard Rock » Rap-Rock". This breadcrumb navigation thingy doesn't seem to be very reliable, I hope their infoboxes are better. Arcandam (talk) 06:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I just told you those Japanese articles dont mention it; it's original research. I used google and bing's translators, and no use of pop, "hip pop", etc. If you're only source for this made-up term is Wikipedia, then you're out of luck. Dan56 (talk) 06:24, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Lol. Remember, I did not write that article. Someone else claimed to have rewritten and referenced it, per AGF I assume that person was not an evil troll trying to deceive us. Maybe his or her standards were different, we don't know, I do not want to speculate too much about that.

Lets see if it is true that "hip pop" is original research:

• Vibe
• Los Angeles Magazine
• Billboard about nelly furtado
• Billboard again
• Billboard #3
• Ebony
• Encyclopedia of the African Diaspora Origins, Experiences, and ..., Volume 3
• SPIN
• Black Enterprise
• CMJ music

Of course there are many more were those came from (Google Books). I am a bit too lazy to make a more impressive collection, but you get my point. I think this article needs what they call "competent recreation". Do you agree? Arcandam (talk) 06:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

So Nelly Furtado is a contemporary of West's? Seriously? Dan56 (talk) 06:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to be sure I looked it up in Merriam Webster. Two artists happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time. Furtado was born in '78, West was born in '77, and both have a taste of music that can be described as hip pop. Why is that surprising to you? Arcandam (talk) 07:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Kanye West is a hip-hop artist. Going through his albums I see hip-hop, hip-hop, hip-hop, pop electronica synthpop R&B, hip hop. I see no mention of pop-rap anywhere? I mean it's one thing to have a source saying hes pop-rap, but if NOT A SINGLE album genre is pop-rap, than it's just common sense that it should not be included.--(CA)Giacobbe (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. Here on Wikipedia we need sources. Do you have a reliable source that proofs your claim? Good luck finding one that is more reliable than KRS-ONE. Arcandam (talk) 21:31, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Rap

Can we compromise and simply say it is "rap"? Pop rap is a subgenre of rap. And Template:Infobox_musical_artist#genre says to aim for generality, right? He won lots of Grammy's for making rap albums & rap singles, doing rap performances, that should be good enough to source that he makes rap music. Arcandam (talk) 01:56, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

That's not a genre, but a vocal style/form, which is one of the elements of hip hop music and one of the pillars of hip hop culture, along with DJying, B-boying, and graffiti. "Rap" is also a simple-minded term used by mainstream outlets like the Grammys and iTunes as a synonym and way of categorizing "hip hop" for their own purposes. And didn't you say "hip pop" is not a subgenre? I don't understand why you're complicating things. West is a hip hop artist. Plain and simple. Dan56 (talk) 02:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, and what I am saying is is that this vocal style/form is also used outside of hip hop, e.g. by Kanye. And I have a reliable source for that, a "leading expert in the hip-hop culture" according to User Secret. But whatever, I give up. Arcandam (talk) 02:39, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

If it's used elsewhere is not relevant here, where we're discussing West's genre, hip hop. Dan56 (talk) 03:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

kanYe West

It should say that Kanye often stylizes his name on his albums like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.135.162 (talk) 03:38, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Intro Edit

Motion to remove "West's mascot and trademark is "Dropout Bear," a teddy bear which has appeared on the covers of three of his five solo albums as well as various single covers and in his music videos" from introduction. Kanye no longer uses the symbol, and I think discussion is warranted on whether it's necessary to include this piece of info so prominently on the page in the intro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.54.147 (talk) 17:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I second this. At this point, he hasn't used the dropout bear in six years (last album appearance was Graduation). I propose moving this to the "Artistry" section.Mistamystery (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

minor proposal

to replace 'In addition, West's VMA disruption sparked a large influx of Internet photo memes with blogs, forums and "tweets" with the "Let you finish" photo-jokes.'

with

'In addition, West's VMA disruption sparked an Internet meme on blogs, forums and "tweets" of "Let you finish" photo-jokes.' TheNusz (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Favorite food

It should be mentioned that Kanye likes to put fishsticks in his mouth. 203.100.216.230 (talk) 16:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.162.140.53 (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Hyperlink "Air Yeezy"

Under "Business ventures", "Air Yeezy" should be hyperlinked to the Air Yeezy Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.212.7.8 (talk) 02:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Done, thanks for the suggestion. SE KinG. ^{User page.} _Talk. 23:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

More info on Cruel Summer

1. There needs to be more text added onto the Cruel Summer section in the article.

2. There are no different variations of the way Kanye West is spelled. It's Kanye West not kanYe West, not KaNyE WeSt, Kanye West. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eleventhblock (talk • contribs) 18:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

1.  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

2.  Not done for now: While I agree with you, I can't find any instances of improper/inconsistent capitalisation of Kanye's name in the article. Can you please point them out for me? — Deon^talk 11:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/entertainment/celebrity/Kanye-West-working-with-Skrillex-for-new-album_60669394

he's working with Skrillex. Someone add it since I can't.

Done. Dan56 (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

height

The article should list his height. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.245.32 (talk) 22:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Why...? SE KinG. ^{User page.} _Talk. 23:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Redirect request

Could somebody please add a redirect to this page via " 'Ye ". Thanks K. (talk) 14:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 September 2012

Please add Kanye West's Cruel Summer album has been leaked. Bobfrazer (talk) 04:32, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Done. Dan56 (talk) 04:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:MOS

Per WP:MOS, "An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within an article. Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a substantial reason." We're not looking to format every article on a musical artist for the sake of conforming them stubbornly, but looking at what's best for this particular article. It is being argued that bold headers such as (Solo albums) make the discography list "easier to find albums ... and makes everything more orderly", yet it disrupts the chronology, as the next "solo" album would be placed before the "collaboration" albums preceding it? That seems like it makes it harder to find, as the list started out from earlier to later releases. Furthermore, solo album is the not appropriate terminology for an artist who was never originally in a group/band. Only major works should be included in the section, and the "with" notes in smallscript along Watch the Throne denote enough (redundant), so there's no need for this style change. Dan56 (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Tone of the following sentence

"He didn’t start out in front of the microphone, though."

I don't know what appropriate wikipedia violation this triggers but this sentence sounds like a tag line from a highlights magazine story. And you won't guess what happens next! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.47.70.89 (talk) 11:00, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

gay fish?

Why there no mention about the gay fish affiliation? its a major part of unbiased nowadays cultural reference that anyone should find on wikipedia :DSchmiegestestor (talk) 14:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Sandy concert

Can he be called a cross-dresser based on his wearing a skirt in the 12-12-12 concert? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.0.42 (talk) 04:28, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

No — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:18E8:2:1375:6553:406:8CF6:5E3C (talk) 04:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2013

Someone edited the Kanye West page stating that he died January 23, 2013. Gossip pages are still buzzing about Kanye's affair so pretty sure he's alive. http://perezhilton.com/2013-01-24-kim-kardashian-kanye-west-affair-reggie-bush-confirmed-rumor#.UQG_JqWzK-I 142.55.40.104 (talk) 23:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

 Already done by Giants27 --Jnorton7558 (talk) 00:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Business/Other Ventures?

Why is this section so out of date? No sources on Pastelle ("Past Tell?"), second fashion line, Air Yeezy II, etc...

Also, pretty sure Kanye West foundation is no longer in existence...

Mistamystery (talk) 22:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

looking through the whole page - there's a bunch of incomplete, out of date, or flat out incorrect information. Anyone want to help out cleaning up the page? Lots of dead links too. Let me know :)

Mistamystery (talk) 22:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and updated (with more detail and sources) the philanthropy section. No major expansion though. Feel free to expand with more of the organization's activities if anyone likes...I think this is good enough for now (given that the org is no longer operational). Mistamystery (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Adding Niggas in Paris to 3 million digital sales list in introduction

In the introduction it says that Kanye West has had 5 song exceed 3 million digital sales. However, now that Niggas in Paris has sold 3 million, it should be added to the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.106.1 (talk) 18:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Done, thanks for the heads up Mistamystery (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Controversies

Justin Timberlake When Justin Timberlake performed "Suit and Tie" on Saturday Night Live, he changed the lyrics from "Aww, sh-t so sick, got a hit and picked up a habit" to "my hit's so sick, got rappers acting dramatic." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.97.181.133 (talk) 18:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 March 2013

Rectifying Grammatical errors — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.45.153.228 (talk) 16:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 April 2013

In an article by Rolling Stone, it was confirmed that Kanye had worked with Daft Punk on at least two tracks for the new album. One appears to possibly be a lead single as Chris Cunningham has already been selected as the director for the accompanying music video.

PaulCellura (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: you aren't very specific about where you want this text to be added. In the section 2013–present: Sixth studio album, Daft Punk is already mentioned. Michaelzeng7 (talk) 22:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Programme/program

Isn't "programme" British English? So his mother taught in a *program* in China. Since Kanye and his mother are American.

 Done - Thanks! --ElHef (Meep?) 16:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Recent News

Possible mention of the Yeezus early leak on Friday June 14th? Or West's new attitude on album leaks, as reported by Mashable: http://mashable.com/2013/06/14/kanye-west-yeezus-album-leak/

Tim Alberdingk Thijm (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Sales

Somebody please add the updated stats: 13.1 million albums sold in the US as of June 2013 (not counting Watch the Throne and Yeezus). Source. 54.242.204.143 (talk) 13:48, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 June 2013

in the background information column name of Kim Kardashian should added as partner(2012-present) and info about his daughter with her Akshayagg12 (talk) 10:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: already listed under Kanye West#Relationships. NiciVampireHeart 07:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Kanye West is also a graphic designer

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-jG0wjb9hI

“People won’t believe how much thought goes into this stuff…Working with DONDA was good for the mind anyway,” said 2 Chainz. “A bunch of guys, young guys, with all these crazy ideas and crazy resources getting pulled from different areas. Actually, this cover right here, and I don’t even know if 'Ye wants me to say it, but he actually…photoshopped. Like he did something. I didn’t know you could erase on the computer. This computer eraser. Move some stuff over. So, I was like ‘Man, you slick a geek. I didn’t know you was that smart.’” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.157.82 (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Official sales from official source

We finally have an official source with official sales from kanye

"To date, Kanye West has sold over 21 Million albums and over 66 Million digital tracks worldwide."

Straight from the official def jam website for the press release of his new tour:

http://www.defjam.com/kanye-west-announces-the-yeezus-tour/

Would be nice to update, Kanye's sales are always in question — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.174.95 (talk) 04:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Kanye West was not the first non-gangsta rap rapper.

"The sales competition between rapper 50 Cent's Curtis and West's Graduation altered the direction of hip hop and helped pave the way for new rappers who did not follow the hardcore-gangster mold.[59] Rosie Swash of The Guardian viewed the sales competition as a historical moment in hip-hop, because it "highlighted the diverging facets of hip-hop in the last decade; the former was gangsta rap for the noughties, while West was the thinking man's alternative."[190] West's 2008 album 808s & Heartbreak polarized both listeners and critics, but was commercially successful and impacted hip hop stylistically,[29] as it laid the groundwork for a new wave of artists who generally eschewed typical rap braggadocio for intimate subject matter and introspection, including B.o.B, Kid Cudi, Childish Gambino,[191] Frank Ocean,[192] The Weeknd, and Drake.[193][194] According to Ben Detrick of XXL magazine, West effectively led a new wave of artists, including Kid Cudi, Wale, Lupe Fiasco, Kidz in the Hall, and Drake, who lacked the interest or ability to rap about gunplay or drug-dealing.[59] Both Drake and Casey Veggies have acknowledged being influenced directly by West.[195][196]"

This entire paragraph should be omitted. The Guardian article that it references is a caption to a photograph...not really a good source. And also, anyone with even an elementary understanding of the history of rap and hip hop music would understand why this statement is unfounded, and completely false...there have been plenty of hip hop artists who have been successful rapping about "non-gantasta" themes since the beginnings of the genre, and on to the present day.

Edit: He was the first mainstream non-gangster rapper. No one on his level of fame was wearing the clothes like he was or rapping about the stuff he was in a major way. From Spaceships, All Falls Down, etc..The people rapping like that were rappers like Mos Def and Talib Kweli and etc.. However none attained the success Ye had, and beating 50 who represented everything 'popular' hip-hop was solidified Ye as the backpack rapper king.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfvidaurre (talk • contribs) 22:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC) 

Sources for "among the greatest records of all-time"

In the introduction it states "Several of his studio albums, most prominently Late Registration and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, have been ranked by music critics as among the greatest records of all-time."

I would like to have some sources for that (not a single one is provided) and they should be more serious critics than say a webforum of MTV. Otherwise please remove this part.