Talk:Ravens of the Tower of London

Comments

• The legend of Bendigeidfran omits the fact that his name means Blessed Raven. Without this fact the inclusion of the legend makes no sense to the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 (talk) 14:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• The opening sentence of the legends section makes it sound as if ravens were kept at the Tower since "ancient time" (sic) rather than just happened to live in the area. It's a while since I was reading about the Tower of London and don't have the relevant sources to hand at this moment, but I thought that ravens were included as omens of death rather than meant literally.
• I'd treat Younghusband's work cautiously, early histories of the Tower are notoriously unreliable and I'd be more inclined to look at the work of Sax. I'd be curious to know if Younghusband is the first to mention ravens at the executions of Anne Boleyn and Lady Jane Grey.
• "Legend attributes the start of the tradition of keeping captive ravens in the Tower of London to Charles II (reigned 1660–1685) and his royal astronomer John Flamsteed, although there are two versions of the legend that differ in their specific details.": this needs a reference.
• Ref 6: Younghusband's A Short History of the Tower of London is not from 2008, the Google books version is a reprint. When was it first published?
• When did the incident with "James Crow" and "Edgar Sopper" happen?
• The article has a section on possible 19th-century origin of the legend, and yet this is not represented in the lead.
• Reference 5 need more information such as publisher and access date.
• It's interesting that Parnell suggests that the earliest ravens may have been kept as pets by the Yeoman Warders[ http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/nov/15/britishidentity.artsandhumanities]; this probably should be mentioned too.
• Although generally less detailed than this article, Cultural depictions of ravens#Tower of London may contain a couple of things worth looking into, for example an incident during the Second World War when there were no ravens at the Tower is referenced to Boria Sax. It may also be worth adding a bit more on the 19th century morbid fascination with the Tower's dark side and how that may have influenced the legends. Nev1 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the comments, Nev1.
  • I added the info you required to the lead.
  • Actually the story about Lady Jane Grey is referenced to Sax, and I was not able to find it in any other place. I will continue working on your suggestions and post my progress to the talk page.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • The incident with "James Crow" and "Edgar Sopper" happen in 1927, but so far I was not able to find a RS to use as a reference. --Mbz1 (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Younghusband's work was treated cautiously. I provided an exact quote from his book in the section about legends.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I added info about ravens as pets of the staff as you suggested.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

When did it all start?

Wild ravens are popularly thought to have inhabited the Tower for many centuries, the White Tower having been built in 1078–1097.

The above sentence is problematic as it insinuates there has always been a link between the Tower of London and ravens. A reference has been added supporting the construction date of the White Tower, but that's not what is being disputed (although come to mention it, it's not certain when it was completed so the date range shouldn't be giving the impression of being absolute; cf. Allen Brown & Curnow 1984, p. 12). So far, the earliest mention of ravens associated with the Tower in the article is in the 16th century. I think the way round this problem would be to replace the sentence with something along the lines of "Ravens are native to London, and the first recorded occurrence of them being associated with the Tower is xyz". Nev1 (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I removed both the sentence and the reference.--Mbz1 (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I added information about the current distribution of wild ravens in the British Isles. Invertzoo (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Should this be added to the article?

I found an interesting information of what the ravens eat:"As regards food, I buy fresh meat from Smithfield – liver, lamb, beef, chicken. And occasionally when I’m at my own place in Suffolk someone will give me some rabbit that’s been killed. If I see roadkill on the road, and it’s not been too badly mangled, I normally put it in a black bag and bring it back here. I give them biscuits as well, soaked in blood from the meat that I buy. And in winter I get them capsules of cod liver oil. I know they’re getting as much vitamins and oil as they possibly can. That’s why they look so healthy" Should this info be added to the article, and, if yes, to what section?--Mbz1 (talk) 05:09, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

"Smell of corpses"

"Wild ravens are thought to have inhabited the Tower for many centuries, supposedly first attracted there by the smell of the corpses of the executed enemies of the Crown"; I appreciate it's cited, but this is very dubious. London's main execution site was at Tyburn; there were only 112 executions at Tower Hill (plus a further seven in the Tower itself) during the 400+ years it served as an execution site. – iridescent 2 17:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, this info is added to section "Legends" because it is one of the those info that are hard to verify. On the other hand wild ravens are not rare birds. They inhabit lots of cities around the world and spread evenly around the cities. I believe there is a good possibility there were ravens in the Tower since ancient time. Were there any more ravens because of the executions? Who knows.--Mbz1 (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Ravens in the wild

IMO this section should be shortened significantly or even taken off the article altogether. There are mention about wild ravens in the lead and in section Legends. I will add a few more sentences to the legend section tomorrow and it should be enough IMO. If by tomorrow nobody will rise an objection I will take section "ravens in the wild" off the article. --Mbz1 (talk) 03:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I thought the section about wild Ravens was useful and interesting background material that gave the article much more of a context. But I suppose it could be shortened. When I was a kid in London, at the Tower they told me that originally wild ravens lived at the Tower and then when the wild ones ceased to live there, the idea was that captive ones were better than nothing. And now that the populations of wild ones are spreading and increasing, if wild Ravens come back and nest again in Central London the Tower won't need the captive ones any more. I think this evening I can find a newspaper source that says the latter anyway. If you do want that section shortened, maybe you can let me shorten it? Also we can maybe see what other people think about the idea of eliminating it? Invertzoo (talk) 19:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course it is an interesting section, but IMO this section is undue weight. IMO wild ravens should be mentioned only as long as there's direct connection between those ravens and the Tower. In the next few hours I am going to add few more sentences about wild ravens to the section "legends" I guess. Of course we should wait for more opinions. I was going to remove the section only, if nobody minds, but if you do mind, let's wait. --Mbz1 (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I just now cut the wild raven section down a lot, renamed it, and re-positioned it at the end of the article. Hopefully that is a bit better? I also found a good ref to support the idea that wild ravens lived at the Tower in times gone by. Invertzoo (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I believe it is much better now. If the section is going to be in the end of the article, I would not mind, if you'd like to make it a little bit bigger. --Mbz1 (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I am glad you think it looks better. I just now found an abstract of a 2010 paper where Boria Sax suggests that a free-flying colony be tried at the Tower instead of a captive one; he feels that this would help generate more stories and legends. So I added that too, although I think I am not formatting the citations correctly? Sorry! I could perhaps at some point put back in a sentence about their size, their intelligence and the fact that they are the largest member of the crow family... But I could also leave it the way it is. I did find a couple of good "See also" articles to list. Oh and maybe at some point we can mention one of the stories that shows that they can learn to speak, to repeat phrases they have learned from the Ravenmaster. That's pretty cool too! Invertzoo (talk) 01:31, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

You do not format references correctly, but it is probably OK. Looks like the article is more popular than I thought it will be, so we will not be able to keep references the right way anyway. I believe somebody has already mentioned they (ravens) could speak in connection to Putin's visit. Thanks for adding interesting info to the article.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

layout

IMO the section "History" and "Ravens at the Tower" should be switched places. I believe section "History" should be put right after the lead.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, done - let's see how it looks. Maias (talk) 04:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

What do you think? How it looks to you? Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 04:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I think either way is possible. Maybe a third opinion would be helpful. Maias (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Raven Picture

I have uploaded an alternative picture of tower of london ravens.
Does anyone think it is better than the current one the article uses?

The current picture

An alternate picture

Cj005257 (talk) 10:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Although the ravens are clearer in the image on the right, there is nothing that links them to the Tower. With a blurry green background, they could be just about anywhere; to be fair, the image in the left doesn't really shout "this is the Tower of London" either. Nev1 (talk) 15:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Boria Sax

Although the IP gave no reason for this removal, I think it may be valid. I don't think Sax's suggestion that "instead of captive ravens, a group of free-flying ravens should be tried at the Tower" unless it can be demonstrated to have carried weight. Has it been seriously considered? If not, I think it's a piece of speculation and doesn't really enhance the article. Nev1 (talk) 00:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I reworked that part a little bit to make it clearer that this was just Sax's idea. If you would prefer to remove that paragraph altogether, go ahead. Invertzoo (talk) 12:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Is this an article about Ravens of the Tower of London or an article about Boria Sax (an apparently widely published but not especially noteworthy author)? The dude gets more props here than the queen... I am cutting this as it is irrelevant Silverwood (talk) 12:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)