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*he "called on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to toughen requirements for Ukraine for obtaining a new Stand-By Arrangement" http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/9919.html
*he "called on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to toughen requirements for Ukraine for obtaining a new Stand-By Arrangement" http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/9919.html
*After his meeting with McCain in Washington, McCain said the Senate resolution concerning Ukraine "may become tougher". http://www.unian.info/politics/804564-us-senator-resolution-concerning-ukraine-may-become-tougher.html [[User:Ssscienccce|<font style="color:DarkGreen;background-color:#FAFAFF;">Ssscienccce </font>]] ([[User talk:Ssscienccce|talk]]) 03:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
*After his meeting with McCain in Washington, McCain said the Senate resolution concerning Ukraine "may become tougher". http://www.unian.info/politics/804564-us-senator-resolution-concerning-ukraine-may-become-tougher.html [[User:Ssscienccce|<font style="color:DarkGreen;background-color:#FAFAFF;">Ssscienccce </font>]] ([[User talk:Ssscienccce|talk]]) 03:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

== Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2014 ==

{{edit semi-protected|Arseniy Yatsenyuk|answered=no}}
<!-- Begin request -->
It seems to be an important fact about him, which should be added to his curriculum vitae directly after:
"All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" and leader of the parliamentary faction of "Fatherland".[8][9][10]"

Text to add:

Various media and observers reported that he had veiled his Jewish descent with views of the anti-Semitic sentiments prevailing in his own party.

The references to this information are:
Harriet Salem, Who exactly is governing Ukraine? [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov ''Who exactly is governing Ukraine?''], The Guardian, 4. März 2014 [http://www.isn.ethz.ch/Digital-Library/Articles/Detail//?lng=en&id=103593 ''Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk'']; Ben Judah, Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk, ISN Network an der ETH Zürich, 5. August 2009
<!-- End request -->
[[User:Webslap|Webslap]] ([[User talk:Webslap|talk]]) 10:41, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:41, 21 April 2014

Proposed alternative ethnic origin wording for AY--PLEASE type or paste your own version below

Last version by User:Solntsa90 minus languages spoken which was moved to birth and parents:

The official site of Yatsenyuk states his parents and grandparents were ethnic Ukrainians.[1] Analytical, academic and press sources have stated that he was born tо Jewish-Ukrainian parents, with The Guardian having reported that he “has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland”[2][1][3][4][5][6] In response to antisemitic slurs such as "criminal Jew" made by some candidates in the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election, the chief rabbi of Ukraine Yaakov Dov Bleich has said, "“Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not Jewish.".[7]
Paavo273 (talk) 08:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think this version is fine; It's factual, it covers both the anti-semitic fringe element behind saying that his family is Jewish, as well as the legitimacy that some of the rumors may actually have as reported by the papers. I think as long as what seems to be his official website lists his ethnicity as Ukrainian, we should say that, however, I can't help but notice that his family tree conspicuously lacks data for the rest of his family members, making our editing duties a bit more difficult. If you would like to add any alternative wordings that you find appropriate, please let the talk page know. Solntsa90 (talk) 19:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's putting too much emphasis on a couple of English language sources, which are not known for fact-checking (i.e. The Guardian). There are no reliable sources I could find, that state that he has Jewish origins (again it is only an article by an English-speaking Guardian journalist, who could well have confused the allegations with whether there is actually any evidence). Avaya1 (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Which way The Guardian article does not have an evidence? Please, provide reference beating The Guardian claim. I do not think that we shall rely on the chief rabbi statement. Here you can read more about 'the Yatz' [2]--96.241.218.72 (talk) 15:41, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
...a neo-Nazi blog? Seriously? Let's take this convo to Stormfront and get this over with. --Львівське (говорити) 15:58, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What?? --Львівське (говорити) 17:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

An IP editor from Virginia attempted a compromise wording.[3] User:Lvivske kindly pointed out that there were some very minor errors in the English and the formatting,[4] and I have tried to fix these minor errors.[5] I think the compromise suggested is useful, and in line with part of Wikipedia:No original research, which says: "If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". In this case, the adherent being cited is the Guardian newspaper.

I do not think that mention of the neo-Nazi blog in the talk page is relevant to this issue. The blog is not cited in the article.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:54, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed versions for ethnicity April 2014

Version 1 (for this discussion) of Solntsa90
The official site of Yatsenyuk states his parents and grandparents were ethnic Ukrainians.[1] Analytical, academic and press sources have stated that he was born tо Jewish-Ukrainian parents, with The Guardian having reported that he “has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland”[2][1][8][9][10][11] In response to antisemitic slurs such as "criminal Jew" made by some candidates in the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election, the chief rabbi of Ukraine Yaakov Dov Bleich has said, "“Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not Jewish.".[12]
Version 1 of anon. user + Toddy1 (Please anon. user and Toddy 1 revise if this is not your final proposed verson)
"Yatsenyuk's website states his parents are and his grandparents were ethnic Ukrainians.[1] However, the British newspaper, the Guardian, claims: "He has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland."[13]"
Version 1 of Paavo273 (preferred by Paavo273)
According to Yatsenyuk, he comes from a family of ethnic Ukrainians."[1] He is of partly Romanian ancestry, with one of his grandparents being an ethnic Romanian and citizen of Greater Romania from the region around Chernivtsi. [14]
Version 2 (if consensus or DR or arb. determines a discussion of AY's possible Jewish roots should occur) of Paavo273
"According to Yatsenyuk, he comes from a family of ethnic Ukrainians.[1] He is of partly Romanian ancestry, with one of his grandparents being an ethnic Romanian and citizen of Greater Romania from the region around Chernivtsi. [14] Some academic and press sources state he was born tо a family of ethnic Jewish-Ukrainians. An article by Harriet Salem in The Guardian states that he “has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland.”[15] [16][17][18][19][2][1] On the other hand, Yaakov Bleich, a chief rabbi of Ukraine, responding to slurs such as "impudent Jew" and "thieving Jew" made against Yatsenyuk during the latter's 2010 presidential election campaign, stated, “Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not Jewish.” [20] Further, Anna Rudnitskaya writing on the same presidential election in The Jewish Week asserted, “[Yatsenyuk’s] hypothetical Jewishness was never established.” [21]
  • ('Would also need further tweaking rel placement of some cites, and IMO discussion of Kuzio's position and mention of him by name w/b also warranted. IMO Kuzio is the most credible source brought up so far after the rabbi, which is not to say very credible; he is apparently a distinguished fellow, but not in ethnology AND he like all the others offers NO evidence.) Paavo273 (talk) 00:00, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Version 2 above is acceptable to me.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:18, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
ditto--Львівське (говорити) 19:28, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h Official website of Arseniy Yatsenyuk - Arseniy Yatsenyuk Family Tree Template:Ref-uk
  2. ^ a b c Official website of the "Front for Change" - Arseniy Yatsenyuk Family Tree Template:Ref-uk
  3. ^ "Arseniy Yatsenyuk" (PDF). McClatchy-Tribune. Retrieved 16 March 2014.
  4. ^ Salem, Harriet (Tuesday, March 4, 2014). "Who exactly is governing Ukraine?". The Guardian. Retrieved 9 March 2014. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  5. ^ "UKRAINE: Yatsenyuk capitalises on public discontent" (PDF). Oxford Analytica. March 9, 2009. Retrieved 7 March 2014.
  6. ^ Judah, Ben. "Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk". Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. Retrieved 3 March 2014.
  7. ^ Matveyev, Vladimir. "Ukrainian Jews want mayor charged for slurs". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Retrieved 30 March 2014.
  8. ^ "Arseniy Yatsenyuk" (PDF). McClatchy-Tribune. Retrieved 16 March 2014.
  9. ^ Salem, Harriet (Tuesday, March 4, 2014). "Who exactly is governing Ukraine?". The Guardian. Retrieved 9 March 2014. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  10. ^ "UKRAINE: Yatsenyuk capitalises on public discontent" (PDF). Oxford Analytica. March 9, 2009. Retrieved 7 March 2014.
  11. ^ Judah, Ben. "Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk". Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. Retrieved 3 March 2014.
  12. ^ Matveyev, Vladimir. "Ukrainian Jews want mayor charged for slurs". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Retrieved 30 March 2014.
  13. ^ Who exactly is governing Ukraine?, The Guardian, April 4th 2014 [1]
  14. ^ a b "Arseni Iațeniuk a fost investit Prim-Ministru al Ucrainei. Iațeniuk este din regiunea Cernăuți, cunoscător al limbii române și cu origini românești" (in Romanian). R.B.N. Press. 2014-02-28.
  15. ^ Matveyev, Vladimir. "Ukrainian Jews want mayor charged for slurs". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Retrieved 27 March 2014.
  16. ^ "Arseniy Yatsenyuk" (PDF). McClatchy-Tribune. Retrieved 16 March 2014.
  17. ^ Salem, Harriet (Tuesday, March 4, 2014). "Who exactly is governing Ukraine?". The Guardian. Retrieved 9 March 2014. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  18. ^ "UKRAINE: Yatsenyuk capitalises on public discontent". Oxford Analytica. March 9. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
  19. ^ Judah, Ben. "Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk". Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich. Retrieved 3 March 2014.
  20. ^ Ukrainian Jews want mayor charged for slurs, Jewish Telegraphic Agency (August 10, 2009)
  21. ^ Rudnitskaya, Anna (25 February 2010). "Change For Ukraine, But Likely Not For Jews Yanukovich's victory welcomed cautiously by community". Retrieved 26 March 2014. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |name= ignored (help)

(reflist added by User:Toddy1 on 8? April)

Good idea to add! Paavo273 (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some issues to discuss

Please do read the discussion in sections above.
Please agree, disagree, and otherwise respond to the following: (Please give rationale if possible.) Paavo273 (talk) 23:26, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If AY has Jewish roots through his mom or dad or babushka or dedushka, it has to based on ethnicity (cultural and/or race such as Ashkenazy or Hebrew) OR faith?
  • If there is some third category of Jewishness, what would that be?
  • If AY denies that no one in his past lineage--Mom or Dad or either babushka or dedushka--at a minimum practices the Jewish faith or had Jewish ethnic ties, that we should not state AY or THEY were Jewish? (See discussion above involving Paavo273 and Solntsa90. Pvo has contacted AY's office twice at two different addresses, the second time with the level of specificity discussed by Solntsa90 above. 'Don't know whether his people will reply, but 'hoping...)
  • It would be IDEAL to have evidence, rather than just uncorroborated statements, to establish his ethnic or cultural identity?
  • That if AY's alleged Jewish identity is discussed, it should include both sides to the extent those are RSd?

I think the approach above is in breach of Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:No original research. The policy is that we go on what reliable sources say. If there is a disagreement between reliable sources, the policy is that we take a neutral point of view and give both mainstream viewpoints. It is a breach of Wikipedia rules on original research to create our own classification system for deciding what race someone belongs to. It is a breach of Wikipedia rules on synthesis to use the logic above with someone else's classification system (see WP:ORIGINALSYN). If you can find a reliable source that uses the logic above and classifies Yatsenyuk using it, fair enough.--Toddy1 (talk) 11:28, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Здравствуйте User:Toddy1: Thank you for the note on my talk page. I have no objection to the way you've reorganized things here.
Could you please explain what logic you are referring to and what you believe is OR. I infer you're talking about something in this section where you've posted. I am only asking for clarification about what people believe rel meanings of the terms, NOT proposing any language or content per se for the article. This relates back to one or more discussions between Solntsa90 and me rel the nature of the claims of Jewish identity. I want to represent accurately what Solntsa90 said (It's all in the recent archive of the last 7-10 days), so please correct me if I have not been faithful to what he said. Solntsa90 stated as far as I can tell that when the rabbi said AY is not Jewish he was referring to AY not being a "frum" (devout, religious) Jew, not one who (fastidiously or even at all) practices the Jewish faith and that therefore there was no conflict between the rabbi's statement and those of Harriet Salem and others. I am only asking that we try to clarify what we the participants of this discussion have understanding in common about.
In a much more recent talk post, Solntsa90 I believe stated that he agreed that if AY or his rep. provides a clear denial that he or his forbears are in any way Jewish, then Solntsa90 would at that point agree not to include reference to AY as having Jewish identity. (See bottom two lines of THIS page.
QUERY: What do YOU and other participants think about this?
There is a liberalized standard for public figures in the BLP policy, BUT IMO there is still plenty of WEIGHT to the argument that if the BLP subject denies it, it should not be included.
If your point includes that we should not even TRY to clarify what exactly the authors--Harriet Salem, Kuzio, the rabbi, et al.--mean by their use of the word Jewish, I would not necessarily object to your approach. I absolutely agree with you that WP policy requires we must not interpret, beyond the plain meanings of words, what sources say.
What would you say to this: Since you and User:Lvivske find acceptable my version 2, IF Solntsa90 agrees to it or something similar that we all agree on, maybe we could just form a consensus among the four of us participants for now, place that in the article space, and then IF and when AY's office replies, which could be a week or two, or never, take it up again? ('Have had good success getting replies from non-UA high officials, but 'don't know what the chances are here.) WDYT?
Paavo273 (talk) 01:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

I think it would be a good thing to cite Famous Jews of Ukraine [Знаменитые евреи Украины], by Professor Shimon Dubnov, Rudolf Yakovlevich Mirsky, and Alexander Yakovlevich Naiman, pub 2009. Pages 18 to 19 cover Yatsenyuk. See Obozrevatel, 25 September 2009, Yatsenyuk is not just a Jew, but a famous Jew! [Яценюк не просто еврей, а еврей знаменитый!. There is also an article about the publication of the book (though not mentioning Yatsenyuk) on Unian 25 September 2009, [Presentation of the book "Famous Jews of Ukraine" [Презентована книга "Знаменитые евреи Украины". Incidentally the reason the book was published was because of the rise in ethnic tension in Ukraine, and the aim of the book was to show that Jews were useful members of society just like anyone else.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP policy, "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones"". Since there are unused English-language sources, IMO those s/b used/exhausted first/instead if more info is 2B added. (As I noted above, there is a problem with the use of the citations in my proposed version above, which I took from a prior version that appeared in the article. Kuziak doesn't say exactly what Salem says, but the THREE sources attributable to him and OTHER sources are placed where Salem is QUOTED and cited.) Whatever the intent of the Dubnov et al piece, the publication shown in the .pdf file looks pretty pamphlety as to the print style. (Did this appear in a major publication?) In any case, as with any source, it should be vetted prior to use as to the nature of its publication (e.g., where, RS?), scholarship, etc; it MAY be fine; I dunno'. But it could also open a Pandora's box of foreign sources--to the extent that pretty soon we could have a spinoff article titled something like "Arseniy Yatsunyuk: Jewish or not Jewish?" Paavo273 (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I pasted the wrong URL for the Unian article - sorry. The Unian article has a photo of the hardback print version.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:05, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding WP policy. WP:NOENG says "Citations to non-English sources are allowed. However, because this is the English-language Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, whenever English sources of equal quality and relevance are available." The book Famous Jews of Ukraine was sufficiently notable to have at least two major news outlets (Unian and Obozrevatel) write articles about its publication.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So it comes down to interpretations of relative quality and relevance. Thanks for the links. I read the AY section in the book & was disappointed 2 find not only no evidence of AY's Jewish identity in those two pages, but as far as I can tell not even a single MENTION there of AY's Jewish identity. So is the only basis and the only actual assertion of AY's Jewishness the title of the book? If that's the case, мне кажеться we still have the same problem as with the other sources. Kuzio, whose WORD is ALSO IMO a poor source to authenticate AY's Jewish identity, is nevertheless apparently a notable individual with ties to UA and has his own WP article. Paavo273 (talk) 04:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal (Protection)

protect this article.--109.201.253.86 (talk) 18:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that restricting editing to auto-confirmed users would help.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ironic that Toddy would say this after reverting the user who proposed the restriction. --Львівське (говорити) 20:41, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all - it would have stopped the IP editor from Lvov from making deletions of cited material from the article.--Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The POV content that was added by an IP user who both you and he are ignoring the ongoing talk discussion on that very source? Hmm. --Львівське (говорити) 21:00, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are probably mistaken.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
'Restored this section since IMO it was prematurely archived by the bot. Also changed the archive settings. Not sure my new settings are optimal, but the old ones were seriously messed up IMO. Paavo273 (talk) 04:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is youtube a reliable source?

Anybody help me out here, please. Personally, I'm an inclusionist when it comes to sources, at least a little more liberal than WP's definition. Especially if there is conflicting info and the reader can clearly understand the origin of the sources--who's saying what--so there's no issue with weight (including so that WP's voice is not involved) my m.o. is to allow it and let the reader decide. But the last three edits seem IMO 2B pushing it. Especially when there's no apparent means to authenticate the material. Paavo273 (talk) 22:36, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History of this dispute

  • 08:03, 8 April 2014 71.39.6.142 added the following text: "During the secession demonstrations in Crimea crowds chanted "Yatsenyuk govnyuk" (Yatsenyuk the shithead) protesting the interim government of Ukraine as illegitimate."
  • 09:11, 8 April 2014 Toddy1 added a FACT tag.
  • 21:54, 9 April 2014 Neptune777 deleted it, saying "I deleted this. Fact without source."
  • 06:43, 10 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts Neptune777 saying, "Undid revision 603511168 by Neptune777 (talk) Check YouTube postings for recorded examples."
  • 04:14, 11 April 2014 Paavo273 reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "Delete unsourced info. 'Need to follow WP rules--including citing RSs--to add info. 'Need to show relevance. There is already a discussion in talk to ask for page protection. Is this leading there?". Paavo273 accidentally marked this a minor edit - oops!
  • 04:19, 13 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts Paavo273 and adds to the citations saying, "Undid revision 603696026 by Paavo273 (talk) Mentioned already YouTube recordings indicating the references alluded to." "YouTube recordings provided as references to the protesters references in Crimea.)" "Fixed the reference URLs."
  • 02:52, 16 April 2014 Paavo273 reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "Watched the youtube video. IMO youtube is not an RS. Secondly, while at least a couple of people close to the mic. and maybe a whole group appear to say those words, they do NOT say WHY, contrary to the text. Also not a terribly encyclopaedic addition."
  • 04:36, 18 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts Paavo273 saying "YouTube a perfectly reasonable source of popular opinion expressed by Crimeans. In this situation no other source would appear more authoritative."
  • 06:10, 18 April 2014 DDima reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "This is not the place for trivial information from YouTube. The other such information was at least cited by reliable news sources. Not to mention this is HIGHLY unencyclopedic!"
  • 07:51, 18 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts DDima saying "Undid revision 604698745 by DDima (talk) YouTube recordings show clearly the popular reaction. As such they are a highly valuable source of information on popular sentiment."
  • 07:52, 18 April 2014 Sjö reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "Undid revision 604706578 by 71.39.6.142 (talk), per DDima"
  • 04:39, 19 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts Sjö saying "Undid revision 604706684 by Sjö (talk)"
  • 04:42, 19 April 2014 Lvivske reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "come on"
  • 06:17, 19 April 2014 71.39.6.142 reverts Lvivske saying "Undid revision 604834516 by Lvivske (talk) Truthful account of popular sentiment about Yatsenyuk, properly belongs on this page."
  • 06:37, 19 April 2014 Paavo273 reverts 71.39.6.142 saying "Undid revision 604841044 by anonymous user for reasons I previously explained but which were never responded to."

71.39.6.142, maybe it would be simpler to find a newspaper or RT or something that mentions this incident. There is a clear consensus not have have your paragraph on the grounds that the only source for it is Youtube.--Toddy1 (talk) 08:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First off its a youtube clip, not a good source. Second, is it notable? A crowd chanting some vulgarity for 20 seconds is hardly notable enough to make it into an encyclopedia. --Львівське (говорити) 15:04, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But you cannot know that the crowd was chanting that. The sound-track may have been added later. This is a video with near-zero provenance.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You make a good point. Another reason why youtube videos without independent verification are useless as sources in of themselves. --Львівське (говорити) 18:47, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

2013 foreign diplomacy

Maybe interesting: in june 2013

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2014

It seems to be an important fact about him, which should be added to his curriculum vitae directly after: "All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" and leader of the parliamentary faction of "Fatherland".[8][9][10]"

Text to add:

Various media and observers reported that he had veiled his Jewish descent with views of the anti-Semitic sentiments prevailing in his own party.

The references to this information are: Harriet Salem, Who exactly is governing Ukraine? Who exactly is governing Ukraine?, The Guardian, 4. März 2014 Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk; Ben Judah, Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk, ISN Network an der ETH Zürich, 5. August 2009 Webslap (talk) 10:41, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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