Talk:John Brooks (soccer, born 1993)

A recent article by BRIAN SCIARETTA - Sunday, October 21, 2012, states " [Brooks] has continued growing and is now 6'6.] http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=show&id=9548 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.21.168 (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2014

The entry for John Anthony Brooks Jr. begins as such: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."

This should instead read: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American footballer who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."

The above change should be completed because it is more factually accurate and represents the individual's (read: John A. Brooks Jr.) ethnicity more fully. Being American is entirely different from being German-American. Moreover, "footballer" is distinguished from "soccer player" as it harkens to a fuller representation of the sport as it exists outside the United States. That is, the sport is globally known as football. Changing "footballer" to "soccer" is an act of cultural dilution and "Americanization" of the term.

These changes should be instated immediately, as Mr. Brooks is sure to be a subject of interest for the foreseeable future.

Johncarbone (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Done, except that all the players on the US team are called soccer players and not footballers. Alandeus (talk) 08:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

What if we called him an association football player? That seems like a reasonable compromise, since he's German-American. Theycallmebruce — Preceding undated comment added 20:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Soccer player is fine.

His ethnicity is not an issue. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No ethnicity in the lede

Per WP:OPENPARA we shouldn't have a hyphenated nationality for the subject. I don't see any discussion about it in the article, so we only list the team that he represents at the international level. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

How about not having ethnicity at all in the lede and just say that he represents the USA, making it implicit? DJAMP4444 16:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2014

The first sentence in the article contains a grammatical mistake. 107.192.194.74 (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. RudolfRed (talk) 19:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

It read "an American..." and an edit changed that to "an German-American" until I reverted the WP:OPENPARA violation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment

At what point, if at all, should Brooks' ethnicity be mentioned in the lede (i.e. is he German-American, American, or a soccer player who played for America)? The relevant wikipedia policy is WP: OPENPARA. Editors who I know are interested are: Walter Görlitz, Mikemor92, and myself. The reason for asking for comments is because this could very easily turn into an edit war and should be established through consensus which includes non-involved parties. Thanks. DJAMP4444 19:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

It should not be mentioned in the lede. There should be a personal info or background section and it should be discussed there. The player's nation should not ever be linked perWP:OERLINK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Per §3 of WP: OPENPARA, the opening paragraph should reference:

“…the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.”

Given this, it seems rather straightforward to include that Mr. Brooks is German-American. I am not sure why this is a question. Alanna1991 (talk) 20:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I am not so certain that it is 'straightforward'. The term German-American is quite dominating and it mustn't do so per the very same policy. DJAMP4444 22:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

If you give a clear explanation of what you mean by 'dominating', and can point specifically to the policy that precludes the expression of this 'domination', then we can begin to have a more productive discussion concerning whether or not Mr. Brooks being German-American should be present in the lede.

Anecdotally, however, through perusing other Wikipedia entries about individuals, one gets the impression that stating the nationality of an individual is very much warranted in the lede. Kennedyflinn (talk) 00:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Nationality is warranted. But in the case of a footballer, the football project is clear: the team that they are representing internationally is what should be mentioned. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly for "German-American". Brooks has not only the family and social background — Alanna (no relation) provides good examples below — but he has played for important teams of both countries. Alandeus (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Glad you're for it. Did you read the guideline? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

If you mean WP: OPENPARA, then yes. Alandeus (talk) 07:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Then why are you suggesting that we ignore the guideline? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Ignore the guideline? Yes and No (or "Jain" as they say in German). "Country of which the person..." for Brooks is BOTH Germany and USA, not EITHER/OR, personally as well as professionally, so no preferance needs to be given. (I can personally relate to that; although I sometimes say I'm 51% American and 49% German, but that's off topic now) Alandeus (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

What specific provision in WP: OPENPARA is violated by stating in the lede that Brooks is German-American? Johncarbone (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's fairly obvious that him being German-American should be mentioned in the lead. He's played international football for both countries, and leaving one out (the one that arguably he has more ties with) is not doing the article justice. Number 57 08:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Right, Brook's cleats are equally deeply imprinted in the pitches of both of his home countries. Alandeus (talk) 13:30, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• The WP:FOOTY project is (as far as I know) clear on this. We should show his FIFA nationality which is the nation he currently plays for (and apperently thinks he himself belongs to as he plays for them). It is the same for example Diego Costa who moved from Brazil to Spain and is now spanish footballer. In some cases the nation has been removed in this discussions as a compromise, just saying "proffessional footballer/soccer player" but we should not involve "German". "American soccer player" is the way to go and one part of WP:OPENPARA reads "...or if notable mainly for past events...", and in his past events he is american. QED237 (talk) 11:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
  • As a member of the project, I don't believe we are clear on this. I also don't understand why you think his German nationality is not of note. He has lived his entire life in Germany, spent his entire playing career in the Bundesliga (presumably using his German citizenship rather than being an overseas player) and has played for a German national team. To introduce him as solely American is showing a remarkably skewed view of the facts. Number 57 12:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Exactly. He has dual citizenship and can therefore qualify to play for both the United States and Germany at the international level. He has played for the U-20 national teams of both countries. The reason that he is playing for the United States in this World Cup is simple: we asked him to. Germany did not. He is only playing for the United States for a few weeks and will then return to Germany to complete his contract with Hertha Berlin, which ends in 2017. Referring to him as "American" simply because he is playing for the USMNT for a few weeks is a gross misrepresentation of his history and background. I'm not sure if there are different manuals of style per language on Wikipedia, but it might be worth noting that the German article refers to him as a "deutsch-US-amerikanischer Fußballspieler" (a "German-American football player.") Kennedyflinn (talk) 14:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
      • He cannot play for both the USMNT and the German national team. Once a player is capped at the senior level for a specific nation, he can no longer switch allegiance. A switch is only granted if a player is capped at a junior level and then wants to play for a different nation at the senior level. And one of the many, many discussions on the topic at the football project can be seen at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe he should be described as an "is an American international soccer player", but if agreement cannot be reached why not just state "is a professional soccer player. Born in Germany, he represents the United States at international level." GiantSnowman 11:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the current wording

John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks, is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.

is correct and I don't think anyone is objecting to it any longer. However if I am misreading recent comments, an acceptable version would be

'''John Anthony Brooks, Jr.''' (born January 28, 1993), referred to as '''John Brooks''',<ref>{{cite web|title=Brooks: ‘It Was Not A Hard Decision To Play For The USA’ |url=http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Mens-National-Team/2013/08/Brooks-It-Was-Not-A-Hard-Decision-To-Play-for-The-USA.aspx|publisher=ussoccer.com|accessdate=August 14, 2013|date=August 14, 2013}}</ref> is a [[Defender (association football)|defender]] who player who plays for [[Hertha BSC]] in the [[Bundesliga]] and has represented the [[United States men's national soccer team|United States national soccer team]] internationally.

We would follow that opening paragraph with renaming the Club career section to biography or personal life or something similar and explaining, with sources, his birth and that entire situation or roll it into the International career section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a good compromise: Leave the complicated nationality issue out of the lede and delve into it later. Just wonder why the "referred to as ..." part needs to be in there. Alandeus (talk) 06:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand how you think no-one is objecting to the current introduction. I certainly am, and I don't think the version suggested is any better (it's hardly a compromise, as it still ignores his German nationality). The one suggested by GiantSnowman is more appropriate. Number 57 15:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I too am objecting to the current introduction. The proposed change is not as radical as some on here are making it seem. Nor is it in violation of any editing guidelines. The proposed change, to be clear, is to state that Brooks is a German-American soccer player, rather than an American soccer player. I do not understand why there is pushback against this proposal. It is a fact that he is German-American. Kennedyflinn (talk) 18:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Based on current guidelines and agreements, German-American should not appear anywhere in the opening paragraph. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support German-American in lede since he is a German-American. He was born in Germany, he grew up in Germany, he holds duel-citizenship. That makes him a German-American. There's no policy that says his nationality can't be mentioned in the lede of his BLP. To refuse to put this in the lede is POV pushing. Though why there's a refusal to do so is not clear, but it is POV pushing. SW3 5DL (talk) 03:26, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There's no POV. I'm not trying to hide anything. I am following editing guidelines which you either haven't read, don't understand or don't think apply in this case. This isn't a matter of supporting or opposing, it's a matter of editing per guidelines. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Walter, where in the editing guidelines do you find the reason for as you write, "German-American should not appear anywhere in the opening paragraph."? In WP:OPENPARA, I find instead: "The opening paragraph should have:... Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen,..." After that, it states that ethnicity ought to be avoided though, but I don't think German-American is an ethnicity. Confused Alandeus (talk) 07:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Walter Görlitz I did read the guideline. The problem appears to be that you are ignoring the guideline to push a POV, which is against Wiki policy. This doesn't seem to be a problem for the editors of the BLP for this Canadian-American, or for the editors of the BLP for this Jamaican-American Brooks is a German-American and his BLP should state that fact in the lede. If you can't see that, you should not edit this article. SW3 5DL (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Reply: I am not pushing a POV so you're mistaken. Michael J. Fox isn't a football player playing for a national team, at least the last time I checked that wasn't the case. The same can be said for Patrick Ewing. So I'm not sure if you know what is being discussed here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • But by all mean, please detail what you think this POV you suspect I'm pushing actually is so I can clearly confirm or deny it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: It's explained here that it's perfectly fine to include German-American in the lede since Mr. Brooks is a German-American. You and one other are the only ones who aren't reading the policy this way. The comments above and in the section below, all support including German-American in the lede. Michael J. Fox and Patrick Ewing don't need to be footballers. The policy is being applied to their biographies. This article is a biography and the MOS for BLP's is very clear. It doesn't show an exception for footballers. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, but that' not a POV, it's a consensus decision. Stop misrepresenting the correct interpretation of guidelines as POV. Please strike your mis-characterization now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

And while Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is an essay about deletion of articles, it applies here. Just because other articles discuss hyphenated nationalities doesn't mean it applies to all articles. I can easily show you a dozen articles where there is no hyphenation for people who hold or held dual citizenships, but since that's not the issue, I won't. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

And the consensus decision is against you. You are pushing a POV to keep a policy based edit out of a BLP. Only you know why you're doing that. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not. The consensus of the football project is in my favour. And I have explained why so there's no reason to speak as though I have some mental deficiency or conspiracy going on. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any of the project members over here supporting your position. You are the only one opposing Mr. Brooks being characterized as a German-American. It's a simple statement of verifiable BLP fact. This is a BLP and the MOS for BLP applies here. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

As a member of the football project, I don't believe I've ever heard of this consensus. Number 57 21:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

GiantSnowman (talk · contribs) expressed his opinion above. Check the archives for similar discussions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I've checked the archives, and there are numerous discussions, none of which have a clear outcome or consensus (which is why it is discussed again and again). Number 57 22:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

My checks show consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you could show us where this consensus is then, rather than just referring to it? Number 57 22:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Several discussions have been collected at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality, although that's about the single nationality to display in roster templates. There are a great many in the archive discussing what to do with players who do not have a national team and a FIFA-recognized nationality as well. Can't list them now. Will have time later in my day. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Three days later and still no evidence. As a project member, I am aware of numerous consensuses on several issues, but I do not recall a definitive agreement on this one. Beyond this, as we discussed on your talk page, the omission of "German" from the lead does not seem defensible - the only argument put forward against it is this supposed consensus. And even if there was consensus, it's clearly bonkers and (per WP:IAR) should be ignored if it's harming the articles it relates to (and I would say that omitting the fact that a man (who was born, raised and has spent his entire career in Germany, and has represented that country internationally) is German from the intro of this article is a clear example of something gone very wrong indeed). Number 57 16:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of what? I provided a link to a section above. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of a consensus on what goes in the introduction. As you yourself stated, the discussion you linked to above is about a completely different issue (i.e. flags in the squadlist). Number 57 17:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I put the matter on the BLP Noticeboard here so it can get properly sorted. SW3 5DL (talk) 00:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support keeping the lede as is for now. See here. SW3 5DL (talk) 01:13, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014

The lede reads: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.”

Instead, it should read: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented both the United States and Germany in international soccer tournaments.”

The original quotation misrepresents Brooks’ national identity. He was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. He grew up in Germany, where he has lived his entire life. He has never lived in the United States; as such, it is an overstatement to say that he is solely American. If anything, he is German of American descent.

An NPR article (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/17/322897921/after-his-game-winning-goal-we-ask-who-is-john-brooks) points to the fact that Brooks has a tattoo on both elbows: on the left, a map of Berlin with a star over his birthplace; and on the right, a map of Illinois with a star over Chicago, his father’s hometown. It’s pretty clear that he sees his national identity as both German and American.

In an interview with the Deutsche Bahn Konzern, Brooks noted that he displays both American traits (his name, his love of basketball, and his love of American music) and German traits (his playing style, as he lives in Germany and learned how to play soccer there). The interview is in German – his native language – and can be found at the following address: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwUbTuGn_nc

The original quotation also states that Brooks has “represented the United States national soccer team internationally.” While this is technically true, it would be more accurate to say that he has played for both the United States and Germany at the international level.

The excitement surrounding Brooks’ winning goal in the United States’ match with Ghana on June 16th is entirely understandable, and it may potentially cause Americans to want to claim him as their own. However, this attitude is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates neither the reality of his national background nor the standards of Wikipedia. Alanna1991 (talk) 04:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

 Not done There's a discussion above and your opinion is against several editing guidelines: WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO. Feel free to read them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

It appears, to me at least, that Alanna1991's suggested lede is not in violation of any editing guidelines. I have read both WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO, but am unclear on what exactly is being violated. Perhaps you can point me to the specific section(s) that you believe precludes the proposed edit? Johncarbone (talk) 15:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014

Somewhere should include "He is the greatest american since Abraham Lincoln" or at least some mention as many Americans do feel this way thanks. Ibelievethatwewillwin123 (talk) 16:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

in some senses you got your wish. ESPN coverage mentioned said vandalism.97.94.188.47 (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Clearly a slow day for ESPN. I guess there’s no NASCAR or similar inane sport to broadcast or discuss. There is no vandalism here so they were disseminating a lie. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Anthony_Brooks&diff=613210374&oldid=613210359 and that's not the only time someone added that. 97.94.188.47 (talk) 23:22, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

What about Wikipedia's claim, that John Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player ?

Facts are, that Brooks never lived in the USA or America [1]. He was born in Berlin, grew up there and is playing Fußball (soccer) in Berlin, Germany.

Once again Wikipedia claims a person as someone they are not. Wikipedia's claims in the lead that Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player. That, by itself in the lead, is a very misleading and inaccurate description. It disregards his factual life, home and upbringing.

Brooks (f)actually is a German soccer player, now also playing for the USA team in the 2014 worldcup, for which he qualified due to his US father. Therefore he is a GERMAN AND in 2014 AMERICAN soccer player, but he is NOT (only) an AMERICAN soccer player. Wondering about wikipedia's often misleading classifications(50.173.166.172 (talk) 17:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC))

It's discussed above (until it's archived) multiple times. Football player nationality is 1) their FIFA-recognized nationality, 2) if they have not played for a national team, it's their league-recognized nationality, 3) if there is no specification for either, then it's their birth nation unless they have relinquished that and adopted another. Discussion of nationality, birth place, etc. should take place in a section in the article and not complicate the lede. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Move?

If this guy really is [generally] referred to as "John Brooks", as is said in the lede, then why isn't this article at "John Brooks (footballer)"? We don't disambiguate people by their middle names, do we? HandsomeFella (talk) 19:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternative dab: (soccer player). HandsomeFella (talk) 19:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Normally I would support this. However, John Brooks (soccer) already exists. As does John Brooks (English footballer). If you ask me the current title is preferable to the somewhat unwieldy "John Brooks (soccer player born 1993)", which would be the proper disambiguation if we were to remove the middle name. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that this guy is more notable that the older guy. But that may change of course.

HandsomeFella (talk) 21:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)