Talk:Evolution: Difference between revisions
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[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> by [[User:Ian.thomson]]. —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 02:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
[[File:Yes check.svg|20px|link=]] '''Done'''<!-- Template:ESp --> by [[User:Ian.thomson]]. —[[User:Mr. Granger|Mr. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mr. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 02:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC) |
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I've reverted the edit. Changing the definition in such a contentious article needs more discussion. You should wait longer than just one day before changing it. That gives other editors a chance to chime in. Did anyone search the talk page archives to read about previous definition consensus? What source in the article supports the "gradual" statement? Saying evolution is most certainly gradual without source confirmation is walking the OR line. In regards to punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, those are theories "in" evolutionary biology. Does that mean it applies to evolution as a whole? Do we have a source for that? Does a majority of dictionaries and textbooks use the word gradual? Thanks.[[User:Dkspartan1|Dkspartan1]] ([[User talk:Dkspartan1|talk]]) 16:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:23, 19 July 2014
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Many of these questions are rephrased objections to evolution that users have argued should be included in the text of Evolution. The reason for their exclusion is discussed below. The main points of this FAQ can be summarized as:
More detail is given on each of these points, and other common questions and objections, below. To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article?
A1: This is essentially mandated by Wikipedia's official neutral point of view policy. This policy requires that articles treat views on various subjects proportionally to those views' mainstream acceptance in the appropriate academic field. For example, if two contradictory views in physics are held by roughly an equal number of physicists, then Wikipedia should give those views "equal time". On the other hand, if one view is held by 99% of physicists and the other by 1%, then Wikipedia should favor the former view throughout its physics articles; the latter view should receive little, if any, coverage. To do otherwise would require, for example, that we treat belief in a Flat Earth as being equal to other viewpoints on the figure of the Earth.
Due to the enormous mainstream scientific consensus in support of modern evolutionary theory, and pursuant to Wikipedia's aforementioned policies, the Evolution article references evolution as an observable natural process and as the valid explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. Although there are indeed opposing views to evolution, such as Creationism, none of these views have any support in the relevant field (biology), and therefore Wikipedia cannot, and should not, treat these opposing views as being significant to the science of evolution. On the other hand, they may be very significant to sociological articles on the effects of evolutionary theory on religious and cultural beliefs; this is why sociological and historical articles such as Rejection of evolution by religious groups give major coverage to these opposing views, while biological articles such as Evolution do not. Q2: Evolution is controversial, so why won't you teach the controversy?
A2: As noted above, evolution is at best only controversial in social areas like politics and religion. The fact that evolution occurs and the ability of modern evolutionary theory to explain why it occurs are not controversial amongst biologists. Indeed, numerous respectable scientific societies, such as the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the National Academy of Sciences, have issued statements supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and/or ID.[1] In 1987 only about 0.15% of American Earth and life scientists supported creationism.[2]
Thus, as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies, it is necessary to treat evolution as mainstream scientific consensus treats it: an uncontroversial fact that has an uncontested and accurate explanation in evolutionary theory. There are no scientifically supported "alternatives" for this view. However, while the overall theory of evolution is not controversial in that it is the only widely-accepted scientific theory for the diversity of life on Earth, certain aspects of the theory are controversial or disputed in that there actually are significant disagreements regarding them among biologists. These lesser controversies, such as over the rate of evolution, the importance of various mechanisms such as the neutral theory of molecular evolution, or the relevance of the gene-centered view of evolution, are, in fact, covered extensively in Wikipedia's science articles. However, most are too technical to warrant a great deal of discussion on the top-level article Evolution. They are very different from the creation–evolution controversy, however, in that they amount to scientific disputes, not religious ones. Q3: Why is evolution described as though it's a fact? Isn't evolution just a theory?
A3: That depends on if you use the words evolution, theory, and fact in their scientific or their colloquial sense. Unfortunately, all of these words have at least two meanings. For example, evolution can either refer to an observed process (covered at evolution), or, as a shorthand for evolutionary theory, to the explanation for that process (covered at modern evolutionary synthesis). To avoid confusion between these two meanings, when the theory of evolution, rather than the process/fact of evolution, is being discussed, this will usually be noted by explicitly using the word theory.
Evolution is not a theory in the sense used on Evolution; rather, it is a fact. This is because the word evolution is used here to refer to the observed process of the genetic composition of populations changing over successive generations. Because this is simply an observation, it is considered a fact. Fact has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to any well-supported proposition; in scientific usage, it refers to a confirmed observation. For example, in the scientific sense, "apples fall if you drop them" is a fact, but "apples fall if you drop them because of a curvature in spacetime" is a theory. Gravity can thus either refer to a fact (the observation that objects are attracted to each other) or a theory (general relativity, which is the explanation for this fact). Evolution is the same way. As a fact, evolution is an observed biological process; as a theory, it is the explanation for this process. What adds to this confusion is that the theory of evolution is also sometimes called a "fact", in the colloquial sense—that is, to emphasize how well supported it is. When evolution is shorthand for "evolutionary theory", evolution is indeed a theory. However, phrasing this as "just a theory" is misleading. Theory has two different meanings: in colloquial usage, it refers to a conjecture or guess; in scientific usage, it refers to a well-supported explanation or model for observed phenomena. Evolution is a theory in the latter sense, not in the former. Thus, it is a theory in the same sense that gravity and plate tectonics are theories. The currently accepted theory of evolution is known as the modern evolutionary synthesis. Q4: But isn't evolution unproven?
A4: Once again, this depends on how one is defining the terms proof and proven. Proof has two meanings: in logic and mathematics, it refers to an argument or demonstration showing that a proposition is completely certain and logically necessary; in other uses, proof refers to the establishment and accumulation of experimental evidence to a degree at which it lends overwhelming support to a proposition. Therefore, a proven proposition in the mathematical sense is one which is formally known to be true, while a proven proposition in the more general sense is one which is widely held to be true because the evidence strongly indicates that this is so ("beyond all reasonable doubt", in legal language).
In the first sense, the whole of evolutionary theory is not proven with absolute certainty, but there are mathematical proofs in evolutionary theory. However, nothing in the natural sciences can be proven in the first sense: empirical claims such as those in science cannot ever be absolutely certain, because they always depend on a finite set of facts that have been studied relative to the unproven assumptions of things stirring in the infinite complexity of the world around us. Evolutionary science pushes the threshold of discovery into the unknown. To call evolution "unproven" in this sense is technically correct, but meaningless, because propositions like "the Earth revolves around the Sun" and even "the Earth exists" are equally unproven. Absolute proof is only possible for a priori propositions like "1 + 1 = 2" or "all bachelors are unmarried men", which do not depend on any experience or evidence, but rather on definition. In the second sense, on the other hand, evolutionary theory is indeed "proven". This is because evolution is extremely well supported by the evidence, has made testable confirmed predictions, etc. For more information, see Evidence of evolution. Q5: Has evolution ever been observed?
A5: Evolution, as a fact, is the gradual change in forms of life over several billion years. In contrast, the field of evolutionary biology is less than 200 years old. So it is not surprising that scientists did not directly observe, for example, the gradual change over tens of millions of years of land mammals to whales.[3] However, there are other ways to "observe" evolution in action.
Scientists have directly observed and tested small changes in forms of life in laboratories, particularly in organisms that breed rapidly, such as bacteria and fruit flies.[4] A famous experiment was developed in 1992 that traced bacterial evolution with precision in a lab. This experiment has subsequently been used to test the accuracy and robustness of methods used in reconstructing the evolutionary history of other organisms with great success.[5][6] Evolution has also been observed in the field, such as in the plant Oenothera lamarckiana which gave rise to the new species Oenothera gigas,[7] in the Italian Wall Lizard,[8] and in Darwin's finches.[9] Scientists have observed significant changes in forms of life in the fossil record. From these direct observations scientists have been able to make inferences regarding the evolutionary history of life. Such inferences are also common to all fields of science. For example, the neutron has never been observed, but all the available data supports the neutron model. The inferences upon which evolution is based have been tested by the study of more recently discovered fossils, the science of genetics, and other methods. For example, critics once challenged the inference that land mammals evolved into whales. However, later fossil discoveries illustrated the pathway of whale evolution.[3] So, although the entire evolutionary history of life has not been directly observed, all available data supports the fact of evolution. Q6: Why is microevolution equated with macroevolution?
A6: The article doesn't equate the two, but merely recognizes that they are largely or entirely the same process, just on different timescales. The great majority of modern evolutionary biologists consider macroevolution to simply be microevolution on a larger timescale; all fields of science accept that small ("micro") changes can accumulate to produce large ("macro") differences, given enough time. Most of the topics covered in the evolution article are basic enough to not require an appeal to the micro/macro distinction. Consequently, the two terms are not equated, but simply not dealt with much.
A more nuanced version of the claim that evolution has never been observed is to claim that microevolution has been directly observed, while macroevolution has not. However, that is not the case, as speciations, which are generally seen as the benchmark for macroevolution, have been observed in a number of instances. Q7: What about the scientific evidence against evolution?
A7: To be frank, there isn't any. Most claimed "evidence against evolution" is either a distortion of the actual facts of the matter, or an example of something that hasn't been explained yet. The former is erroneous, as it is based on incorrect claims. The latter, on the other hand, even when accurate, is irrelevant. The fact that not everything is fully understood doesn't make a certain proposition false; that is an example of the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. Examples of claimed evidence against evolution:
Q8: How could life arise by chance?
A8: If by "arise", one means "develop from non-organic matter through abiogenesis", then this is a question that is not answered by evolutionary theory. Evolution only deals with the development of pre-existing life, not with how that life first came to be. The fact that life evolves is not dependent upon the origin of life any more than the fact that objects gravitate towards other objects is dependent upon the Big Bang.
On the other hand, if by "arise" one means "evolve into the organisms alive today", then the simple answer is: it didn't. Evolution does not occur "by chance". Rather, evolution occurs through natural selection, which is a non-random process. Although mutation is random, natural selection favors mutations that have specific properties—the selection is therefore not random. Natural selection occurs because organisms with favored characteristics survive and reproduce more than ones without favored characteristics, and if these characteristics are heritable they will mechanically increase in frequency over generations. Although some evolutionary phenomena, such as genetic drift, are indeed random, these processes do not produce adaptations in organisms. If the substance of this objection is that evolution seems implausible, that it's hard to imagine how life could develop by natural processes, then this is an invalid argument from ignorance. Something does not need to be intuitive or easy to grasp in order to be true.Past discussions For further information, see the numerous past discussions on these topics in the archives of Talk:Evolution: The article is not neutral. It doesn't mention that evolution is controversial.
The article should mention alternative views prominently, such as in a criticism section.
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
There is scientific evidence against evolution. References
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Editing Social and cultural responses
Hello to all. I added this part in the already mentioned section:
"Other authors with great authority in the field, since the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th, especially the Russian zoologist and biologists who had their analysis made in the regions of Asian Russia, such as Proffesor Kessler and the prominent anarchist Peter Kropotkin are proposing more cooperative version of the theory. They are stating that Darwin and it's basic theory of evolution has been interpreted in it's most narrowest form by its best propagators, such as Julian Huxley and Herbert Spencer. Mutual struggle is accepted as one of the laws of Nature in their interpretations, but they claim that by it self it can't be the only factor of progressive evolution. "Of course", they say," 'Survival of the fittest' is the key factor of evolution, but Mutual struggle doesn't gives an answer to the question: 'Who are the fittest?'". There have been thousands of examples of mutual support and aid in all sorts of species and in every class of animals the most sociable ones are the fittest in their respective classes. As a factor of evolution, Mutual Aid is the main evolutionary factor that made humans succeed in their struggle for existence and gave them the opportunity to be the fittest and most progressive of all the species."
I was said by Physicsandwhiskey that he was not sure how this part was relevant for the subject and gave me an advice to open a discussion on this subject.
Well, here it is. My point is that it is relevant, because even then (in 19th and 20th century), but also now, there are few misconceptions about what is "evolution" and who are the "fittest" in that evolution. Mutual aid and support is totally off the list for many thinkers even today. Those ways of thinking has brought Social-Darwinism, Fascism and Nazism to it's quasi-justification. So, my point is that it's of course a cultural and social response, since it has to do everything with with culture and sociability.
I must add that I know that the concept that the 19th and early 20th century evolutionist had about evolution is way different from the modern concept of evolution, but on the macro-scale, the use of mutual-aid, as well as mutual-struggle, has helped in giving progress to most of the successful species, by which it can not be even said that it isn't scientific.
So, it is on subject, it's scientific and it has sources. I don't know in which point it is off-topic. If you have any other advice about placing that part in other subject of "evolution" which would be more appropriate, just say so.
Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rastapunk (talk • contribs) 10:27, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should note that evolutionist (as you rightly said) philosophical thought of the period you mention is political, with indeed distasteful moral overtones, and has little to do with biological evolution. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I do know that. But the scientific fields are overlapping in this point, as I see it. And besides, the scientist here cited were all biologists and zoologist from the late 19th and early 20th century. For instance, Kessler had nothing to do with politics. On the other hand, it is our duty not just to create an encyclopedia with the thought: "Well, OK, this is the biological part - if you need something more about the philosophical, or social influence that this subject creates: check on somewhere else", but I think that it is of extreme value that we at least briefly mention the connection of biology with social, moral and political sciences, since people come here and create their own points of view and then cite wiki for every need they have. Mutual aid as a consequence of evolution is getting as low attention as it got in the 19th and 20th century and the focus is still on Mutual struggle. If you don't say anything in this subject about mutual struggle - that's not a problem, since most of the people are familiar with the connection between evolution and "the survival of the fittest", but if you don't mention mutual aid, than you are a direct associate of the creation and maintenance of "mutual struggle and nothing else" culture, which is an "everyone for his own and the Government for everyone" way of thinking. We can't say that Wikipedia has no social and political value.
- Once more, you have a good point about everything you said, but I think that we do need to get out from that scope. If I can't change your mind, though, that's still OK.
- Cheers,
- Rastapunk (talk) 11:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)Rastapunk
- I think we must include the theory of Mutual Aid, at least for historical purposes. Even if we ignore the analogies, it does describe biological evolution and as such belongs to this article. Nxavar (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014
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In the second sentence of this entry the term "organization" is spelled organisation with an "s" rather than a "z". Maybe this is just a European spelling? Dtheis (talk) 04:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- The article is in British English—note the use of the term eye colour, for instance. Thus, organisation is the correct spelling for that variety of English. —C.Fred (talk) 04:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
2014 New Theory of Life
“You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant,” England said. http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.196.239 (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not add that. It appears to be the misuse of a quote; the same source says that "England's theory is meant to underlie, rather than replace, Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection", and you could've mentioned that the person's name was England. Quoting people out of context. Why am I not surprised to see this here? -Baconfry (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baconfry, are these just random throw-away remarks? I don't understand what you are getting at. Some of English's work, eg [1], [2] and [3], seems exceptionally interesting and relevant. It is perhaps a bit early to include it in Wikipedia, but let's see whether it holds up. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oops, never mind. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive, but I thought this was another example of a good scientist being quoted out of context. I don't know if it was 91.34.196.239's intention, but I'll let it go and see if we can find a place to reference England's work. -Baconfry (talk) 20:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Baconfry, are these just random throw-away remarks? I don't understand what you are getting at. Some of English's work, eg [1], [2] and [3], seems exceptionally interesting and relevant. It is perhaps a bit early to include it in Wikipedia, but let's see whether it holds up. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2014
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For greater clarity add "gradual" to the opening sentence changing, "Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." to "Evolution is the gradual change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations." Dtheis (talk) 21:29, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'd carry out the change myself if it wasn't the WP:LEDE. I'll second the change, and back anyone who does carries it out. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, instead, if no one provides a good objection to it by the time I remember to get to it tomorrow or the next day, I'll make the change. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with both statements. Plus, I believe "gradual" supported by the provided citations and used elsewhere in the article as well. Mophedd (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- See punctuated equilibrium, but it would be a good idea to add "gradual" anyways. Evolution is most certainly gradual relative to the human lifespan, and we don't want to confuse individuals who might have the misconception that individuals can evolve. Baconfry (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- The punctuated equilibrium article has a section about the multiple meanings of "gradualism", however. Richard Dawkins (the source for much of that section) even argues that punctuated equilibrium is a form of gradualism. Mophedd (talk) 11:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Done by User:Ian.thomson. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 02:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted the edit. Changing the definition in such a contentious article needs more discussion. You should wait longer than just one day before changing it. That gives other editors a chance to chime in. Did anyone search the talk page archives to read about previous definition consensus? What source in the article supports the "gradual" statement? Saying evolution is most certainly gradual without source confirmation is walking the OR line. In regards to punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, those are theories "in" evolutionary biology. Does that mean it applies to evolution as a whole? Do we have a source for that? Does a majority of dictionaries and textbooks use the word gradual? Thanks.Dkspartan1 (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
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