User talk:Sandstein

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GAB

Well, I've seen that excuse in a few unblocks recently, like I said, but if you don't want to have it, that's fine. Origamite^ⓣⓒ 15:03, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, not every stupid unblock request needs to be listed, just enough to get across what we understand by "bad" requests. In this case, with this topic, better err on the side of caution.  Sandstein  18:00, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Y Understood. Origamite^ⓣⓒ 18:06, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Edits to The Hugo Awards page

Recently you deleted an edit I made to the Hugo Award page saying that I can't post original research. Okay, I can respect that you feel that even though I've been involved in the Sad Puppies campaign, I may not be an unbiased source able to post what actually happened. Apparently though, you will allow actual liars to post whatever they want about as long as they can find a bit of Yellow Journalism that supports their perspective. You should know that Larry Correia, the originator of the Sad Puppies 1 through 3, is pursuing legal action for libel against many of the quoted sources in your accepted edit. At the very least, you should note that the Hugo Award page has issues, and stop allowing the libelous, incorrect characterizations of Sad Puppy supporters that is being advanced on your supposedly non-partisan, scholarly endeavor. I know that Larry Correia, and Brad Torgersen are not angry white, misogynistic racists, yet you are allowing them to be portrayed worldwide as if they are. Apparently Brad Torgersen hates people of color so much, that he decided more than twenty years ago that he would marry a black woman and have black children, just in case he should some day need a "shield" for his overt racism. And Larry Correia? He ticks the Hispanic box on EEOC forms as a Portuguese person. Yes, they seem so racist to me also... Robsteeler66 (talk) 20:35, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

It's not clear to me which sources exactly you refer to, but I suggest that you identify them and propose any possible improvements at the article talk page, Talk:Hugo Award. I also don't get the point about racism, as our article doesn't make any allegations of such. By the way, alleging libel on Wikipedia can be interpreted as a legal threat, which can cause problems.  Sandstein  20:54, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, if you are personally involved in an issue, that's exactly the reason why you should not edit articles about it. See, in this regard, WP:COI and WP:NPOV. Also, Wikipedia does not recognize personal experiences as sources, but only reliable publications, see WP:V.  Sandstein  20:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

References

WP:ANRFC and a couple requests

First, I want to thank you for all of the time that you have put in at WP:ANRFC. You are moving right along, and I think that is wonderful. I wish there were more people willing to spend a little time managing that board. Second, I'm wondering if I can convince you to add |done=yes someplace in the {{Initiated}} template call when you mark a section as done. Doing this will make the automatic categorization work correctly and prevent the archive page from showing up in the categories. Finally, I was wondering if I could convince you to update your signature to HTML5 standards. If you are interested and willing to do this, I suggest replacing:

<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<font style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span></small>

with:

<small style="border:1px solid #000;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<b style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;</b>]]</small>

which will result in a 165 character long signature (26 characters shorter) with an appearance of:  Sandstein 

compared to your existing 191 character long signature of:  Sandstein 

— Either way. Happy editing! — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 14:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Kirby Delauter

Sandstein, I'm sorry but that's a pretty horrible close. We finally got everyone to agree where to hold the discussion and we had it. If that's a NC close, then we should have the article. It is clear what the discussion was about. It is was well described what the purpose of the AfD was at the top of the AfD. The other admins involved wanted it this way. To claim, 3 weeks later, than everyone as wrong and there was no venue is just a horrible way to further kick down the road the whole issue. There are nearly no valid arguments for deletion and the entire thing has been out-of-process.

Further, the merits of the case are actually really clear. There are nearly no policy-based arguments for deletion that can stand up to the facts on the ground. Numerically there was consensus here to keep.

So, if you are going to insist that everyone else involved in the disussion was wrong about the venue, can you give an exact way to proceed and a promise that if we follow that way you will support the venue when the _next_ admin claims that too is the wrong venue? This entire thing has been an exercise in bureaucracy. There was never a consensus to delete nor was there ever a valid speedy criteria. Hobit (talk) 02:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, I wrote in the closing statement what I believe the correct fora would be, depending on what one wishes to discuss. If you disagree with the original (speedy) deletion, that would need to be contested at WP:DRV. To add another complication: if the new draft is substantially different from the speedily deleted one, anybody can recreate the article with it, and if the only thing preventing this is the protection on the redirect, one can go to WP:RPP and ask for the protection to be lifted. But what you can't do is use AfD, a process intended to ask for the deletion of mainspace pages, to ask for the creation of an article - that turns the purpose of the process on its head. So far, the community has declined to unify all the xFD processes into a single "pages for discussion" scheme, which personally speaking might be a better idea, but as it is we're stuck with using the processes there are for their intended purposes.

All that aside, in this discussion, I can't find consensus for or against recreation. Opinions are roughly divided, and they are about such issues as BLP1E, which is a matter of individual judgment, and not something that I as the closer can decide by fiat. As always, if there's no consensus, the status quo doesn't change - meaning, in this case, that the article isn't recreated. Sorry.  Sandstein  06:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. There was a DRV, then an AN discussion. That AN discussion resulted in an agreement to go to AfD as the right venue. Jumping in and claiming that 3 or 4 weeks later everyone else had it wrong is probably non-optimal. And given that another admin kept relisting it, it's clear he didn't have a venue problem. After those relists we got 2 more folks wanting the draft restored. Pretty hard to see how that's a NC too. Ah well. Hobit (talk) 14:31, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I visit here because editor Hobit in this diff at my Talk page suggested that I look at the close and perhaps comment here. Sorry the following is a bit long, but I think this is important and it's worthwhile for me to explain my view properly.

First, I was not the one who "moved the Delauter discussion to AfD and out of AN"...that credit goes to Cunard for this diff opening a proper AfD (converting from a mere link to what I term the "informal AfD at wp:AN") and per Cunard's 17 March notice at the informal AfD that "I have started the AfD [at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kirby Delauter]". That created an unusual AFD calling for restoration/moving of a non-mainspace article TO mainspace. But the informal AfD was non-standard too. I supported Cunard's effort and tried to make the unusual AFD work ( by my edits at the top of the AFD trying to clarify the context, by my 17 March edit at WP:AN asserting the "informal Afd" at WP:AN was superseded by the new AFD discussion (per my indented notice at top of, and my statement at bottom of, the archived version of the "informal Afd"), and by my edits at Talk:Kirby Delauter during 17 March and 18 March seeking to create a "notice of AFD" in mainspace.

In my opinion (IMO) editors Cunard and Hobit are justified in being a bit frustrated. Cunard is "right" in complaining that "the admins involved cannot agree among themselves about where to discuss the article draft. One admin suggested an informal AfD. When this was taken to AfD, the closing admin then suggested taking this back to DRV. We've been discussing this since January 2015. Three months! / I'd rather not take this to yet another noticeboard for further discussion. This has been discussed enough already." (quoting from Cunard at Draft talk:Kirby Delauter#Move Draft:Kirby Delauter to Kirby Delauter ).

But also I think Sandstein's close of the AFD as "no consensus" was reasonable too, at least in Sandstein's asserting that there's no action required by the unusual AFD. There was in fact disagreement within the AFD. And I think Sandstein's main assertion that there was not "a consensus on the merits" would be upheld in a deletion review; it would not be overturned at wp:DRV as unreasonable. Arguably there was no consensus on the merits either way, either to force the move of the Draft:Kirby Delauter article into mainspace, or to prevent the move. So in that sense I support Sandstein's close.

However I do disagree with Sandstein's secondary closing assertion, that "To the extent [the AFD was about the] page now at Draft:Kirby Delauter [(which it almost wholly was, IMO), then] it belongs ... at WP:DRV if restoration is desired." Rather, I think that the way forward for AFD-"Keep"-voters is different, and completely open: they may simply copy or move the Draft:Kirby Delauter article to mainspace. The "salting" (move-protection) by administrator Bishonen in this edit with summary "Protected Kirby Delauter: Needs protecting during AN discussion ([Edit=Allow only administrators (expires 15:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only administrators] (expires 15:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)"] has expired...it no longer applies. IMO anyone now can start a new mainspace article on Kirby Delauter, and it should not / will not be speedy-deleted as long as it is different and has improved upon the original version of Kirby Delauter article that was effectively deleted by Bishonen's redirection plus Bishonen's protection of the redirect, so that speedy-deletion reason G4: "Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion" does not apply. IMO the draft is indeed different and improved. I tend to agree with Hobit's "Quick (biased) summary of the split !vote" posted 13:35, 25 March 2015, in the AFD, that the draft version was improved sufficiently that previously stated AFD-type objections are no longer justified. IMO the previous objections are certainly not obviously valid, and they certainly are not so extremely valid that Speedy deletion would be justified. (Of course any new article must not be an egregious violation of BLP policies (i.e. it must not be entirely unreferenced, and it must not be a wp:ATTACKPAGE for which speedy deletion by wp:G10 would apply. The draft version is completely supported by references and is not an unbalanced attack.)

So IMO anyone could right now re-create the Kirby Delauter article by copying the Draft:Kirby Delauter version over the redirect. (Simply copying the text would not achieve the history-merge that would be better, but only an administrator can perform that. But that's no problem: anyone can just do the copy and post a request for an administrator to perform the history-merge later.)

I would do that copying right now, myself, but it occurs to me that it could be even better to take one further set of steps first. I would prefer to create articles about the Frederick County's executive Jan H. Gardner and about some of Delauter's peer Frederick County council-members first, to reduce the possibility that Wikipedia could appear to be selective in covering Delauter but not others. It has been argued in the AFD and other discussions, that Delauter is just one of many Wikipedia-notable county-level council members. In the AFD, I suggested that the emerging Wikipedia notability standard may even be that "all county-level council-members and equivalents deserve articles, while not yet town-level councilors" (for the U.S. and for equivalents in Category:Subnational legislators world-wide). I don't want to create articles for all other equivalents to Delauter everywhere in the U.S. or in the world before re-creating the Delauter article. But it seems to me that creating articles for some Frederick County-equivalents first is sensible, just to convey/support publicly that we / Wikipedia deem that Wikipedia coverage of Delauter-equivalents is reasonable in general. (So watch: Draft:Jan H. Gardner, Jan H. Gardner, Draft: Bud Otis, Bud Otis, Draft:Billy Shreve, Billy Shreve, Draft:Jerry Donald, Jerry Donald, Draft:Tony Chmelik, Tony Chmelik,Draft:M.C. Keegan-Ayer, M.C. Keegan-Ayer, Draft:Jessica Fitzwater, Jessica Fitzwater. Hopefully some of these others will indeed prove to be Wikipedia-notable.)

In summary, IMO the separate AFD and its close with "no consensus" have been useful, and have cleared the way so that Kirby Delauter article can now be re-created. Any serious objections to the new article can be raised in a new, proper AFD, but IMO the draft version is good enough, and the sense of immediate crisis at wp:AN is now in the past, so it's conceivable that there may be no serious objections. --doncram 19:06, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I think I understand your explanation that there is no forum especially well suited to handle this issue, but I was wondering if you could comment on the merits of the article itself? Perhaps identifying what it is specifically lacking, or what it violates, exactly? Bangabandhu (talk) 10:19, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on the merits because the topic does not interest me at all. At first glance, this sort of very local political figure is often a borderline case in terms of notability and BLP1E, but I don't care enough to read the article and its sources and form an opinion.  Sandstein  10:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

India Earthquake of 1341

Would you be willing to restore India Earthquake of 1341 to my userspace? I'd like to try to get the article up to meet WP:V and WP:RS. Thank you. Inks.LWC (talk) 03:26, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The problem with that article is the apparent lack of reliable sources to make any content verifiable. I think that any recreation or userfication would not be helpful until relevant, reliable sources are found.  Sandstein  06:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, I had hoped to use the sources on the deleted page as a starting point to do so. Even if you won't userfy the deleted version, could you give me the original sources from that article? I really don't care about or need the original text; the sources are all I actually want (I just figured userfying would be less work for you). Inks.LWC (talk) 00:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

The sources are:  Sandstein  08:11, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

References

T-Ban question

Minor edits, that are made by the hands(no automation) are also considered as T-Ban violation? OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:29, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes.  Sandstein  08:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Then would you like to look into one T-Ban violation? This edit violates the DS of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan. I had reported this issue at AN, no admin seems to have taken it up. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:58, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

One more. If an admin has voted for I-Ban on AN/I, is he allowed to take any AE enforcements against these 2 users in question? OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:42, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

There are no votes at WP:AE or on WP:AN/I. An admin may impose a sanction if they are not involved in a dispute with the other user, see WP:INVOLVED.  Sandstein  08:09, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Noman Group of Industries

Your handle is on the AfD page showing "Delete," but the article is still available. Tapered (talk) 03:14, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to AfD, and now realized that 'Noman' was just reposted and almost immediately tagged for "Proposed Deletion." In addition [[1]] was created, and again, nominated for "Proposed Deletion." Would it be ethical to remove the 'proposed deletion' tags and AfD both these articles, where some administrator could, perhaps, delete both quickly on grounds that the creator/editor of both articles is floutng concensus by reposting so quickly? Regards Tapered (talk) 04:23, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I declined the speedy deletion of Noman Group of Industries, because it had more sources than the deleted version. However, anybody can renominate it for deletion if they think the new version is also not indicative of notability. As to Noman Terry Towel Mills Limited, that's a separate issue. If PROD fails, then it can be nominated normally for deletion.  Sandstein  08:18, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

The ongoing AfD has shown that there was a prior AfD closed as delete. Thus, ongoing AfD notwithstanding, this is a (presumed) re-creation of the prior text. Unless you can see differently. Fiddle Faddle 15:46, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the recreated version is different from the deleted one, which rules out speedy deletion.  Sandstein  16:11, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. There ought to be a better way of noting this for us non admins :) Fiddle Faddle 16:52, 19 April 2015 (UTC)