Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation

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Primary topic links

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm confused by why the page contains the following guidance:

Ensure that the "(disambiguation)" page links back to an unambiguous page name. The unambiguous page name should redirect to the primary topic page. This assists future editors (and automated processes).

For example, the primary topic Rome links to Rome (disambiguation), where there is a link back via Rome, Italy (rather than directly to Rome).

This really seems counterintuitive, and if there is some rationale for doing this, it really should be explained, rather than simply postulated as if a decree from on high. What is the point of having Rome (disambiguation) link to Rome, Italy instead of Rome? I know there had at one time been some attempt to describe a "Disambiguated Primary Topic" (DPT), which if I understand correctly was supposed to make it easier to identify mistaken links to Rome that were actually meant for some other topic. At least I think that is the rationale for why the text above was added to the guideline. The way it was supposed to work, IIRC, was that intentional links to a primary topic like Rome were supposed to go through the redirect at Rome, Italy. Under this theory, it was supposed to be easier to monitor for mistaken links to the primary topic.

But this does not at all reflect actual practice. If you look at What links here for these pages, there are over 9000 links to Rome, while there are about 300 to Rome, Italy. Is there some other reason for the disambiguation page to link to a redirect instead of to the primary topic? If not, can we get rid of these statements (that I've always found a little confusing, but really didn't pay much attention to). If there is some good reason for keeping this instruction, can we add some explanation to clarify this? older ≠ wiser 21:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I could see it being used along the same lines as the "no piping" guideline, but it does seem to make a lot more sense to link to the redirect in that case. I don't see any reason why not. -- Natalya 21:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

My bad. — Jun. 14, '06 [22:14] <freak|talk>

No problem, Anyone else care to comment on this? If there are no objections within a week, I will remove the text quoted above from the guideline. older ≠ wiser 22:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to link to the redirect rather than to the primary topic. If we have a disambiguation page, that means that the name is ambiguous, i.e. several entities have legitimate claims to use the name. It doesn't really help anyone if we link, on a disambiguation page, to the ambiguous name. --Smack (talk) 21:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really help anyone if we link, on a disambiguation page, to the ambiguous name. But by the same logic, it doesn't really help anyone to link to a redirect to a topic instead of directly. What is the benefit or harm either way? The real detriment in my mind is that this guidance is not only rather confusing, but is also, in my very unscientific estimation, rather widely ignored. Guidelines are supposed to reflect actual practice. Or in those cases where guidelines are prescribing a practice that is not generally recognized, IMO there should be a very strong argument in favor of making the change. I don't see that there is a very good argument here. older ≠ wiser 23:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

"List of highways numbered X"

I've been working on the disambiguations like Route 1 (which has redirects from Highway 1, State Road 1, etc) recently, and I realized that they might work better at titles like list of highways numbered 1. Can someone coment on whether this would be a good idea? --SPUI (T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 13:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be better to keep them at the shorter titles. Farm to Market roads would, in fact, be routes, but I wouldn't consider them highways. I think it would be more meaningful to think of these as disambiguation pages rather than lists. Note that we don't have a List of people named Dylan, we just have Dylan, a disambiguation page, even though some people link to it accidentally, but they usually mean Bob Dylan. — Apr. 24, '06 [20:16] <freakofnur_xture|talk>

Can I have some more input on this, please? --SPUI (T - C) 15:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, I agree with you. This whole collection of pages needs a makeover. My thoughts:

1. I suppose that Farm to Market Roads are technically "highways", even if they are, in reality, narrow, spindling death traps teeming with blind curves and stray cattle.
2. Likewise, then, any route maintained at the state level or higher, would surely be considered a "highway numbered X", whether it is dubbed "State Route X" or "State Road X" or whatever.
3. However, this would, I assume, exclude things like "County Road X" and "Xth Street/Avenue".
4. But, if these are moved to "List of highways numbered X", are they still considered disambiguation pages? In practice, they function as such, and will continue to do so, as all the common road naming conventions, sans geographical identifier, will redirect to these lists, as explained by SPUI. {{Roaddis}} currently populates Category:Disambiguation (I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but it can easily be changed with one edit), and I even went so far as to modify User:Lupin/popups.js so it gives disambiguating functionality to pages containing this footer template.
5. Furthermore, regardless of whether Category:Lists of roads sharing the same title is or is not a subcategory of Category:Disambiguation, it should probably be changed to Category:Lists of highways sharing the same number, Category:Lists of similarly numbered highways, or somesuch. Making this change, as well as moving the list pages, would explicitly:
   1. Exclude numbered non-highways (e.g. County Road X, Xth Avenue, X Mile Road) from each list page.
   2. Exclude disambiguation pages for non-numerical highway names, (e.g. Western Freeway) from the category.

If nobody is bothered by any of this (or reading any of this), let's go ahead and do this some time soon. — Jun. 14, '06 [14:20] <freak|talk>

Without taking a position on the merits of the idea at this point, I predict that most or all pages thus moved will eventually end up listed on AfD as listcruft. —phh (^t/_c) 21:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Any disambiguation page could be; please be constructive. --SPUI (T - C) 21:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

PHenry, are you saying, then, that the titles of the pages carry that much weight with regards to the value of the product as a whole? — Jun. 14, '06 [21:36] <freak|talk>

Keeping them tagged with a {{disambig}} would probably help to keep them off AfD. (The tags would serve as proof that the lists serve a useful purpose.) -- Northenglish (talk) -- 21:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd go for it, definitely. Just to clarify, Freakofnurture, though, I would include numbered county routes. Roads that happen to be named with a number, though, should not be included. -- Northenglish (talk) -- 21:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are two types of numbered county routes - those that are signed with shields (typically only the main roads in the county) and all rural roads maintained by the county (often signed with standard street signs). I'd possibly include the former, as locals may call them simply Route X, but not the latter. --SPUI (T - C) 21:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak for the county roads in anybody else's neck of the woods, but the ones around here are built to lower standards (and perhaps in some cases, narrower) than the slab of cement in front of my garage, and not "highways" by any stretch of the imagination. — Jun. 14, '06 [22:12] <freak|talk>

County Route G4 (California), County Route 549 (New Jersey) - different states do stuff differently. --SPUI (T - C) 22:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I seriously need to buy a camera, then. — Jun. 14, '06 [23:10] <freak|talk>

Seriously though, does anybody care to weigh in on the *gasp* actual naming issue? — Jun. 14, '06 [22:15] <freak|talk>

I, like SPUI, would include county routes signed with shields, but not the rural roads merely maintained by the county.

As for the naming issue, as I said, I'm all for List of highways numbered X -- Northenglish (talk) -- 22:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I would include county routes in lists of numbered routes provided they are not rural unmaintained roads but major thruways. For instance your example from New Jersey at "549" could be included if there are infact other routes numbered 549. Don't know about the california example however since they don't actually have a number but a letter number combo. Does anyone know if that is confined to only california? If so then it's probably unique and doesn't need any disambig. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 22:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

First name disambiguation

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#First name disambiguation. `'mikka (t) 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Parenthetical disambiguation "deprecated"?

Have I seriously been out of the loop, or is User talk:Jdforrester#"a great many find them an ugly intrusion" incorrect? --SPUI (T - C) 16:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where this "strong" deprecation of parentheses has happened, given that the style pages are loaded with recommendations to use them. FreplySpang 16:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any form of "weak" deprecation, even. — Jun. 19, '06 [16:57] <freak|talk>

It is true that where appropriate natural language disambiguation is to be preferred over artificial forms (like either parenthetical or comma-separated or unusual circumlocutions). However, IMO, it is extremely inaccurate to say that parenthetical disambiguation has been deprecated. older ≠ wiser 19:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bkonrad. There are cases when where parenthetical disambiguation is not the preferred method. However, I think Jdforrester is grossly exaggerating to say that they are strongly deprecated. There are still a great many cases when parenthetical disambiguation is the best method. -- Northenglish (talk) -- 19:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Should links be the page title?

On a disambiguation page, should the links be what the page title is? I don't know what it's called when you make a link that SAYS one thing and goes to a different page, but should that be used? I did that in Let's Go, but I'm not sure if I should have ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jesuschex (talk • contribs) 18:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Piping suggests Do not pipe the name of the links to the articles being listed (for example, Moment (physics)). In many cases, this may be all the user needs to distinguish the article.. Besides the piped links, ideally each line in a disambiguation page should only have one blue link. Disambiguation pages are primarily intended to help a reader find the intended article as quickly as possible, with extra information and tangential links kept to a minimum. older ≠ wiser 18:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

new disambiguation subcategories

In case you don't have Category:Disambiguation on your watchlist, there's some discussion at Category talk:Disambiguation#Secondary disambiguations of some new subcategories which may be of interest (or concern). older ≠ wiser 22:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"Other uses" of what?

Currently, all our "other uses" templates read

For other uses, see . . .

Now, I think this is fairly nonsensical. Other uses of what? If I see "For other uses" on Honey, without further qualifications, I'm going to assume it means "for other uses of honey" (the substance), not "for other uses of honey" (the word). At various times some of the templates said different things, such as "for other uses of the term", which I think is much clearer: for other uses of the term honey, or other uses of the term shotgun, or whatever.

However, many people have objected to this. User:Netoholic, User:Michael Hardy, User:Cantus, and User:Brian0918 have inserted such language into {{otheruses}}, and been reverted by User:Bkonrad, User:SimonP, User:Naive cynic, User:Ed g2s, User:Mikkalai, User:24.224.153.40, and User:Docu; I added it to {{otheruses4}}, and User:Freakofnurture lately changed it to the older wording. It was discussed several times on Template talk:Otheruses, but the latest one was several months ago, and it wasn't particularly extensive.

So, there would be a number of ways to rephrase it. One is "For other uses of the term", which I personally favor, but some seem to dislike it. User:Netoholic and User:Khoikhoi both said something to the effect of, "The previous wording is best because that template may be used on articles, like names or places, that can't properly be described as a 'term'" (Netoholic's words). I think this misses the point: disambig templates refer to other uses of the page's title, which is always a term. However, since the entire point of this exercise is to make a header whose meaning is intuitively obvious, the fact that a lot of people seem to object to that wording is good reason to avoid it.

Anyway, start with the basics: who here in some way dislikes the "for other uses, see . . ." wording? The goal, presumably, is for the template's meaning to be as readily understandable as possible, while keeping aesthetic concerns in mind. I think that this template is probably confusing to people not used to it (i.e., not us), and I have no aesthetic issue with adding some words, so I don't like the current wording. What does everyone else think? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 04:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree. "For other uses of this term" is far more clear. Also, if the objection about using it on templates, etc. is valid, those much less common uses can have their own template. The vast majority of uses is on articles, and the purpose of Wikipedia is the encyclopedia articles. —Centrx→talk • 04:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification needed

For page naming conventions, WP:D states the following:

When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used.

However, Titan rocket is actually a redirect to Titan (rocket family), and according to the page history was never located at any other name. (The redirect was created December 20, 2003.)

My question is simple... When there is a more complete name that is equally clear, should that be used?

If so, why does the example used not follow this convention? -- Northenglish (talk) -- 02:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This item is not clear at all. If "another word" were "equally clear", this guideline would mean both that it should be "Cheque" replaced with "Check" and that "Check" should be replaced with "Cheque". —Centrx→talk • 05:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It means "another word" that is "equally clear" and doesn't have a name conflict. That's why Check could be replaced with Cheque, because the latter doesn't have any other meanings while the former does. Powers 12:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand what the statement is trying to say. My issue isn't with the "another word" part (Check vs. Cheque); it's with "more complete names." Why isn't Titan (rocket family) moved to Titan rocket as the guideline suggests? -- Northenglish (talk) -- 18:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In this case, I believe it is because "rocket family" is more accurate than simply "rocket." Titan is not simply a single rocket, but rather a family of rockets. So, while having the redirect there makes sense, the main article should be located at the more accurate title. Hope this helps. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 19:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but then shouldn't it be at Titan rocket family instead (without the parentheses)? Let me try again to rephrase my question...

Basically the way I'm reading that line, it's trying give examples when parentheses should not be used for disambiguation. For example, when there is another word that is equally clear (and doesn't have a name conflict), that should be the title of the article: Cheque instead of Check (financial instrument) or something like that.

It also seems to be indicating that when there is a more complete name that is equally clear, that should be used instead of parentheses: Titan rocket instead of Titan (rocket); or Titan rocket family instead of Titan (rocket family).

So why is it Titan (rocket family) instead? Is the naming of that article an error, or is use of this convention discouraged? -- Northenglish (talk) -- 20:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...I think the difference might be in how you want to present the subject in prose. If you wanted the opening sentence to read, "The Titan rocket family were U.S. expendable rockets..." then you would use the form that you are suggesting. However, the authors there seem to have chosen, "Titan was a family of U.S. expendable rockets..." which would indicate the parenthetical disambiguation. I think the point is probably not to overthink it, use what makes sense, and recognize that there are probably two or three forms that are technically correct. If you can avoid parenthesis it might be best, but in general its not a very big deal and shouldn't be done at the expense of well-flowing prose. After all, how many normal readers of Wikipedia know what the real title of an article is and what the redirect is? All they care is that you can type in Titan rocket or United States of America and get to what they were looking for. :oP EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I suspect that the phrase "Titan rocket family" is not very commonly used. It is descriptive of how that group of rockets are related, but chances are the most familiar nomenclature is 1) simply "Titan" followed by "Titan rocket" followed by the specific type of Titan rocket. Google shows only 115 hits for the exact phrase "Titan rocket family" -wikipedia By comparison, "Titan rocket" -wikipedia has 28,500. Using Titan rocket -wikipedia, which only matches pages containing both words Titan and rocket returns 2,340,000 hits. The most familiar name for the rockets would probably be simply "Titan", but that is clearly ambiguous. What is perhaps the second best choice, "Titan rocket" is also ambiguous because the term describes several different related rockets. The parenthetical form allows the most familiar term as the base (thus enabling use of the pipe trick). While some editors might see the guidance as deprecting parenthetical disambiguation, I think that is only applicable when there is a clear, unambiguous and accurate natural language alternative. older ≠ wiser 20:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I get what everyone's saying. But then I suppose the next step is to choose a different example to use in the guideline? -- Northenglish (talk) -- 20:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

All right, thanks for the response. I understand what everyone's saying, and that's basically what I assumed had happened with the Titan article. That being said, I think we need to rework the section I cited at the beginning of this discussion, if for no other reason than to make the example valid.

My proposed rephrase is:

If there is an alternate name that is unambiguous and equally accurate (such as Example), that should be used.

It may be oversimplifying it, so let's hear some other suggestions. -- Northenglish (talk) -- 01:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It has to be "more" accurate or "more exclusively" accurate. —Centrx→talk • 06:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Should country names have precedence over anything else?

I think they should in Wikipedia. No country should be moved to a DAB just because there exists somewhere a local geographical / legal entity with the same name, especially if the country is a member of the UN, a supranational body of law, which includes the membership of pretty much all countries ("law monopolists") in the world. So this would mean that Georgia (country) should not be on equal footing with Georgia (U.S. state). Intangible 15:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I disagree. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with articles on an extremely wide range of topics. Primary topic usage should be limited to cases where there is widespread agreement that one sense of a term is the predominant usage over all others. In cases where two or more senses of a term are commonly used, then primary topic disambiguation is not appropriate. older ≠ wiser 16:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed (with Bkonrad). Primary topics should only exist when it is clear what the primary topic is. -- Natalya 22:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Given how inflamed passions have become over the subject of Georgia, would it not be reasonable to set a quantitative policy for determining what is clearly a primary topic? There are evidently still sore feelings about the latest annual restatement of the obvious on the Georgia page, and I think if there were a fixed policy, there might be greater acceptance that this is simply how things are done.

I would propose a formula like this: search for the term on google.com, search.com, and search.yahoo.com. From the first ten search results from each, add up the number that refer to the meaning proposed as a primary topic page for the subject in question, or that use the term in the same context; call it S. (Obviously, S should be between 0 and 30.) If S < 12, the meaning in question may not ever be the primary topic page (and must be moved aside if already so), and a proposal to revisit the issue should require a supermajority of 80% of Wikipedians to pass (to discourage search-engine rigging). If S > 26, the meaning, if not already so, should be made the primary topic page following a standard consensus vote (60%?). Otherwise, the status quo should be kept.

Too wonky? Bad thresholds? I'm not sure WWW presence is the best measure, so maybe hit count for the articles in Wikipedia would be good too, or a Google search with a site:en.wikipedia.org restriction. Note for Georgia (U.S. State), S=25 (but even if it were just a little higher, the vote would almost certainly fail), so the result would be the status quo. For Georgia (Country), S=5, so the matter would finally be put to rest. --dreish~talk 01:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a good thought for a situation that is getting out of hand, but I really feel like if we need to go to the trouble of checking search statistics, then there isn't a clear primary topic, and then no primary topic is appopriate. -- Natalya 01:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Bingo. If the choice of which article should be primary is at all in question, it's a clear case for a disambiguation page. The choice should be obvious, or not at all. See also Talk:Syracuse for another place this is getting out of hand. Powers 12:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that's amazing. Clearly some people do not understand the purpose of an encyclopedia, and will not understand the guidelines for disambiguation as long as those guidelines are fuzzy enough to allow their nationalistic fervor to drown them out. However, AdamBiswanger1 on that page brought up a potentially troubling situation that ought to be avoided if a numeric standard is to be adopted: Franz Ferdinand, while perhaps deserving disambiguation given how many people come to Wikipedia as a pop culture reference, should not be a page about the band with a see-also link to the historic figure. Including the site:en.wikipedia.org search, and requiring that the move also pass a vote, should help prevent that. --dreish~talk 14:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation request

Hi, I dont know how to do a disambiguation page, but the Defence Analytical Services Agency is best known as "DASA", however this page has been taken. Could someone please sort out a disambiguation for this please? Thankyou! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thebigalan39 (talk • contribs) .

(Note: comment moved from top of page.) Powers 16:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Add pointer to Special:Prefixindex/...?

If I search for 'Prime' hoping to find a pointer to 'Prime Minister', I'm out of luck. There are some pointers to other pages starting with Prime, but not to all of them. If I do a similar search on the Danish wikipedia (search for 'Prim'), I will get a pointer to the Danish version of Special:Prefixindex/PAGENAME. This way, it is easy way to look for all pages that start with the ambiguous term.

Is there any reason to not do the same thing on the English Wikipedia (other than the fact that the template is protected)? Dash 12:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nationalistic bias in global city names/redirects

This issue is related to diambiguation. Please share your thoughts at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias#Nationalistic bias in global city names/redirects Tinlinkin 10:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

AFD

Some disagreement over what to list / what not to list on this dab page. Input welcome: Talk:AFD. Thanks/wangi 16:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)