Talk:Type 99 tank

Type 99KM

this info is suspect. the link has nothing about a 2100 hp engine that is claimed. Peppermintschnapps (talk) 22:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The 2100 hp figure is there, but the three sources are dubious copies of each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kieranlatty (talk • contribs) 07:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Why go to template

Why go to template: AFV over template: tank? Also, what's the source for 70 km/h road instead of 65?

Template:AFV is the "new improved" version; see template talk:AFV for the details and development. I don't know where the figures came from. —Michael Z. 2005-12-28 17:01 Z

Since Template: AFV doesn't appear to automatically add 'mm' to armour values, would a description of armour composition [the old 'thought to be similar to the T-80'] in the absence of an explicit RHA value work in that field? Hrimfaxi 08:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It would definitely work; this kind of thing is one of the reasons template:AFV was created for. But "thought to be..." sounds like a weasel term, which doesn't generally work in an encyclopedia. "[secret]" is appropriate for unknown armour type, or "[composite]" if that can be confirmed by a respectable reference. —Michael Z. 2005-12-29 09:08 Z

Inaccurate information

After purchasing one hundred T-80 tanks from Russia, the decision was made to incorporate some of its features into China's next-generation MBT, because the current generation of Chinese tanks were inadequate. The result was a new tank with a chassis similar to T-72 or T-80.

--------The PLA had never purchase T80 From any countries —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yaumanto (talk • contribs) 15:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

That is not true, it was widely reported that PLA purchased several hundred T80U in Janes 1998 I think

I doubt the no. of T80U purchased anyway. I didn't hear anything about several hundred T80U serve in PLA in mainland China's military forum nor media.

There was the rumor of the T-80U purchase and the subsequent deployment in the 38th Group Army. But now looking back, nothing ever came out of it from China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuethemighty (talk • contribs) 10:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, many believe the purchase was simply an attempt to acquire the tank so that the strength and weaknesses could be assesed and a better suited Chinese tank could be built instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.71.111.32 (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Length inconsistencies btwn articles

General comment for several MBT articles; sometimes the length provided is the GUN FORWARD length rather than the actual chassis length. I find this irritating, and I feel all lengths should be that of the chassis (e.g. 7.7m for Leopard 2). In this case, 11.0m is clearly the gun forward length. Otherwise, both lengths could be provided, although (in my opinion) the gun forward length seems redundant. The length of the gun barrel IS important as is chassis length. Agreed? Lokster 12:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only person here who is amused by the idea of a 140 mm cannon on this tank? I've seen the images of the 140 mm cannon tank and all I can say is that it reminds me of the whole vulgar joke/comparison amongst men. (Psychoneko (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC))

I can't see the problem with calling it a smoothbore 'cannon.'

I can't see the problem with calling it a smoothbore 'cannon.' 'Tank cannon' is a commonly used term, at least in British-English. Also have no idea of the source of the RHA figures, but they're in the article [new subdivision 'armour'] so I moved them into the sidebar.Hrimfaxi 01:59, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Cannon is sometimes incorrectly used to refer to large artillery pieces or tank guns in popular writing, but please read "cannon". Today the term only refers to medium-calibre automatic cannon ("autocannon"). —Michael Z. 2006-01-1 05:05 Z

Cannon#Modern_cannon 'A cannon generally refers to a high velocity, low trajectory, direct fire weapon such as the main gun on most modern main battle tanks.' US Army Field Manuals also call them 'tank cannon,' see section 7-11. Hrimfaxi 04:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

So they do, and that seems to prove legitimacy for this usage. Tank gun still seems to me to be favoured by most publications, and it sounds right to me. Cheers. —Michael Z. 2006-01-2 05:37 Z

But Tank gun can mean anything; 1st thing that comes to mind for me if someone said that would be a HMG ontop - unless Main Gun was said...--Kurtle (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Armor

The article says adding ERA would boost the armor protection from 500mm to 1000mm RHAe. 1000 RHAe? Against what? Kinetic energy or chemical energy rounds? Modern composite armor offers different levels of resistance to kinetic and chemical energy. Resistance to chemical energy is invariablly higher to that of kinetic energy. If the equavalent given is kinetic, 500mm increase seems quite fantastic. The highly regarded Russian K-5 adds 250mm RHAe against KE weaponry. I don't see 500mm extra kinetic energy protection is likely.

-Chin, Cheng-chuan

I find such precise estimates of secret information to be dubious, anyway. Perhaps it should be removed. —Michael Z. 2006-03-18 19:48 Z

Indeed, especially as the article later states that the armored composition remains unknown. Even assuming advances in HERA [Heavy ERA], which is possible considering testing, especially that done in China, I really doubt a 500mm increase in rolled homogenous equivalency against kinetic energy projectiles, and if that number is for chemical energy projectiles then the armor ratings should have both estimates and it should be specified. Right now it says 500mm & 1000mm... which doesn't make any sense at all. Invariably, ceramic armors generally reap higher resistance against APFSDS. IMO, this article needs to be revised... maybe I should do less complaining and more writing. JonCatalan 19:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the last comments. There is no cited source, anyway, and it shouldn't be even there. Mack. 04:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Are we sure they are ERA instead of additional ceramics?

"However, this tank is actually better armed and protected than the American M1/M2/M3 Abrams Main Battle Tanks, as there are public photos of experimental Chinese composite armors, specficially Al2O3. "

 Have there been side by side tests done? or references that this is true?

Um, I still don't see any references to the numbers cited. Better armed and protected? According to what, sales bochure? According to a number of tankers I know, the publicaly available RHAe numbers for both its weaponry and protection do not add up. It is physically imposible given the L/D ratio of Chinese shells to achieve the kind of penetration the Chinese claims. As for armor superior to an Abrams, well, to do that it has to be better than the Russian tanks that clearly inspired the design of its hull. The theorized resistance is not likely due to the ballistic shape of the hull--too sharp for composite armor. So... does anyone has reliable source? Given the highly secretive nature of such things, maybe it is best that we leave the RHAe numbers alone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.225.69.91 (talk) 11:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

How many have been made so far?

How many have been made so far? (Jaymano 14:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC))

According to the article on the tank from Sinodefense.com, more than 100 are in service with the PLA. But that article seems to be several years old and I've heard there are 200 - 500 tanks in service now. Sch614 20:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Comparison

The Type 99 is generally regarded as being comparable to the T-80 and T-90, and approaching the capabilities of the Challenger 2, M1 Abrams and Leopard 2.

Can this uncited passage be backed up? —Michael Z. 2006-08-29 20:37 Z

Wedge

"The Leopard 2A5/6 also features this "wedge" on the turret front, which is (on the Leopard, anyway) deliberately designed in such a way as to subject an incoming APFSDS round to yaw forces. This places the penetrator under enormous stress, so much so that it may shear, thus preventing its penetration of the turret. The projectile still imparts its kinetic energy on the turret, but not in a fashion that will penetrate the armour."

Sloping the armour that way does improve protection,but I doubt it would not be possible for modern APDS and APFSDS to penetrate it. Dudtz 6/17/06 8:52 PM EST

Picture

We should get a picture of the Type 99 up, this one is a Type 98. -- Yuri

I've changed the picture to a Type 99 -- warset

Sweet! ;) -- Yuri

Design Section

The two paragraphs about the turret design and "shot trap" effect of the gap read like they are an argument and a rebuttal - this should be edited to read more like an encyclopedia article. RottenDog (talk) 05:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese tanks

Possible equivalent article similar to Tanks in the Spanish Army?

Copyright Infringement Problem

I deleted the complete "Type 99A2"-section because it was a copyright infringement from this page. Rewrite that section without copypasting copyrighted material. --DavidDCM (talk) 11:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Page move suggestion

Move this page to Type 99 tank? It really isn't any more notable than several of the other items on the Type 99 disambiguation page--L1A1 FAL (talk) 17:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

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Copyvio?

This article shares the first few paras, at least, of http://www.military-today.com/tanks/type_99.htm. Someone has been copying, though I can't tell in which direction William M. Connolley (talk)

Type 99 intro

For those of you who don't know, I added a source about a week ago claiming that the Type 99 is a variant of the T-72. This source is Carlo Kopp who is a professional Australian military analyst who knows what his talking about and is cited frequently by professionals. Unfortunately for some, the term "variant" may be misinterpreted. In this case, "variant" does not mean copy as our IP friend thinks it is, but rather, a further developed derivative. The Type 99 incorporates the hull, gun, and armor of the T-72 while incorporating a more NATO like turret. Khazar (talk) 22:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

This does not mean that Type-99 is a variant of the T-72. T-72 is a second generation tank while Type-99 is a third generation. Also, China did not have T-72, so your false claim that Type-99 is a variant of T-72 has no ground !!

Most importantly, your "source" is from Carlo Kopp whom specialize on air power !! As your source is " Air Power Australia " [" http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Type-96-99.html"]. How can an air power source claim that Type-99 which is a tank for ground force be possibly a reliable source??

The sources I provided: [1], [2]. Both of them are from news agency, one was from army technology. None of them stated that Type-99 is a "Variant" of T-72 !!. Also, the source you provided are nothing but personal blog (Carlo Kopp) and forums. Which are completely unreliable source by Wikipedia standards.

Even, with all this, I did not just blindly remove the claims you stated. I added them in the content, that Type-99 used a T-72 style auto loader, it has a similar hull but is 1 meter longer.

Now, please stop your distributive editing !

Thank you,

Carlo Kopp is a military analyst who also specializes in Chinese military vehicles, he is a reliable source. Also, your sources are published by enthusiasts, not experts. Khazar (talk) 23:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

This is the writer of one of your sources. He does not qualify as a reliable source since he appears to be an enthusiast rather than an expert. Khazar (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

MT seems to fall under WP:SELFPUBLISH, and I can't find anything concerning Genys' credentials/expertise in the subject matter. He's published some equipment reference guides, but not having seen them I can only suspect that they're essentially hardcopy versions of his website content. I do not think MT can be considered WP:RS.

Kopp had better credentials. However, APA is his website (he both writes article for it and acts as the editor). APA is his vehicle to promote the F-22 over the F-35 in Australia, which he does by highlighting the capabilities of (mainly) Russian and Chinese munitions. There's an agenda here that may influence how munitions are depicted.

Fortunately, APA sometimes references articles written by Kopp that were published by third-parties; these other articles are probably better sources than APA articles (presumably Kopp was required to submit them to the editorial oversight of others). I would recommend that APA be used to locate other sources and not be referenced directly. - RovingPersonalityConstruct (talk, contribs) 04:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

New Chinese Mini-documentary

One of the recent edits on this page added a video in Mandarin Chinese. I'm hoping that User talk:86.182.32.83 could translate it correctly so that it could actually be added to the article. The majority of the Wikipedians on this Wiki do not understand Mandarin and I was hoping if someone (I'm hoping for the IP to do so) can step up and translate the points of interest. Khazar (talk) 05:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for the IP to come forth and actually translate the video. Khazar (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

On July 2009, China's most advance ZTZ-99 MBT grabbed the world's attention during China-Russia Peace Mission Exercise. Since its first debut in 1999, this is the first time the tank has left its home country. The tank's performance during the exercise has settled various speculation. So, what's so special about China's third-generation MBT, and how does it compare with others? On November 2009, Daija documentary conducted an interview with Type 99's chief designer, 92-year-old Zhu YuSheng.

Interviewer: Can you tell me how this tank ranks among the world?

Zhu YuSheng: When I started designing this tank, the order from Central Military Commission (CMC) was that the tank must hold its own against advanced opponents.

Interviewer: Hold its own? What about your goal?

Zhu YuSheng: My goal was not just for the tank to hold its own. What would be the use of that? The tank must defeat its opponents.

Interviewer: So the goal you set for yourself was harder than the order given by CMC.

Zhu YuSheng: My goal wasn't high. How could I not (set such goal)?

Type 99 is the only army equipment which order came jointly from PRC's State Council and CMC. In the 80's, China was still in economic recovery, and defence budget was very tight. Laying in front of the country were various military equipments that needed to be researched and replaced to catch up with the state-of-the-art. In the eighth five-year plan, the federal government mustered available resources to development key military equipments, with Type 99 being one of them.

Interviewer: So at the time, what was the most urgent need of our country?

Zhu YuSheng: At that time, our tanks were outdated and far outclass by others. Our Type 69 has 730 HP. Type 59 has 580 HP, with small calibre gun, just 100 mm. The largest gun was 105 mm. Power, mobility and fire control could not be comparable to others.

Interviewer: What about the most advanced tanks at the time...

Zhu YuSheng: There were M1, the original M1, belonging to the US. Germany started inducting Leopard II.

Interviewer: What's the HP for Leopard II?

Zhu YuSheng: 1500 HP.

Interviewer: Our tanks were not even half-way there.

Zhu YuSheng: Our tanks maximum speed was only 50 km/h.

Interviewer: What about Leopard II?

Zhu YuSheng: 72 to 73 km/h.

Interviewer: What about the gun?

Zhu YuSheng: The gun is 120 mm.

Interviewer: Bigger than ours?

Zhu YuSheng: This was the kind of gap between our tanks and theirs.

Interviewer: No comparison.

Zhu YuSheng: What do you think would happen if they were to meet on the battlefield?

Interviewer: No competition. Only get beaten.

Zhu YuSheng: No competition.

Type 99 became an official project in 1984, headed by NORICO Group. At that time, our second-generation tanks had yet to start production. While in foreign countries, US's M1, Germany's Leopard II, Soviet's T-72 and T-80 third-generation tanks had already been inducted into service. The gap was two-generation wide. From technological point-of-view, our design abilities, small components, large components, technology reserves, experimental abilities were all behind foreign countries by several decades. Under such circumstances, Type 99's chief engineer became a difficult choice for the federal government. Who can shoulder such responsibility? On January 1984, vice-secretary of 国防科工 邹家华 convinced the recently retired Zhu Yusheng to be the chief engineer. Zhu Yusheng and those led by him held a principle of "take whatever we can", and borrowed a lot of advanced ideas from foreign countries.

Zhu YuSheng: I have seen them all: Leopard II, French's Leclerc, England's Challenger. I have seen all of them.

Interviewer: Did you have confidence you could design a tank to surpass them?

Zhu YuSheng: It depends on how your organized, how the system organizes. First, you must use the most advanced ideas available, even when others have not started using it. Second, fire-power is paramount. Other than these, if we start comparing on a component-to-component basis, then we would be no where close: manufacturing, finishing, materials, none of them is close.

Interviewer: So, it depends on integration?

Zhu YuSheng: Yes, it's all about overall integration.

Zhu Yusheng's decision put an emphasis on the overall system came from his experience as a staff officer. After many tactical analysis, war-games, and organizing formations, thinking in a holistic manner has became second nature. His studies of military systems at HIT (a university) were also helpful. Zhu Yusheng believed that a proper integration of the system can yield result greater than the sum.

Interviewer: So where did you apply such methodology?

Zhu YuSheng: Let me give an example: optical suppression system.

Interviewer: Optical suppression system?

Zhu YuSheng: It suppresses the enemy's optics. I installed it in our optics, the one that tracks and targets.

Interviewer: You mean once you locked onto the opponent?

Zhu YuSheng: It tracks. On the battlefield, the ability to see is king. Guess what happens when one can't see? He can't see me, only I can see him. I can fire at him, but he can't fire at me.

Interviewer: So what technology did you use, can you say?

Zhu YuSheng: Of course I can. I used laser.

From 1984 to 1999, Zhu Yusheng led his team in a secretive development in a rural area West of Beijing. Under his leadership, the team kept a good working spirit and creativity. Due to the use of bootstrapping and positive-feedback in development, Type 99 was able to recoup all development costs prior production. This was a very rare occurrence. In 1999, after 15 years of hard work, Type 99 appeared in the military parade for China's 50-year anniversary. Since then, the tank's appearance has led to a lot of speculation.

Interviewer: What's the difference in exterior between your tank and others?

Zhu YuSheng: It is low.

Interviewer: Low?

Zhu YuSheng: Low means high survivability.

Interviewer: High survivability because the tank is harder to hit?

Zhu YuSheng: It means a decrease in silhouette. However, the internal arrangement, how to fit things while maintaining usability was not easy. Look at Americans and their M1. They hoped to make the tank lower, but they couldn't. Why? The power-pack is large, so the hull must be made higher.

Interviewer: So compared to their tanks, how low is your tank able to get?

Zhu YuSheng: 400 mm lower than Leopard II.

Interviewer: 400 mm lower than Leopard II. 400 mm?

Zhu YuSheng: 200 mm lower than M1. It isn't just low, the ground clearance must be high.

Interviewer: For mobility?

Zhu YuSheng: For mobility. If the clearance is not high, the the tank could get stuck on bumps.

Interviewer: Right.

Aside from a low silhouette, the Type 99 has a modular architecture. A lot of components can be removed or replaced. Not only does this lighten the tank, it also opens up the possibility of upgrades. From a performance point-of-view, Type 99's has good armament and mobility. The 125 mm smooth bore gun is especially unique.

Zhu YuSheng: Why did I chose 125 mm gun? There was a huge debate back then, with many reasons, and a lot of comrades did not understand. They asked why use similar gun as T-72, making it look the same? Back then, people thought the West is more advanced than the Soviet.

Interviewer: Right. Western tanks use 120 mm calibre for their gun.

Zhu YuSheng: In reality, each has their advantage. 120 mm gun can hold 9.8 L of propellant. The 125 mm gun can hold 13.4 L, a few litres of difference.

Interviewer: This means more power?

Zhu YuSheng: 125 mm calibre has such advantage: by fitting in more propellant, it can mitigate weakness in propellant, and our formula wasn't as good. I also made changes to the gun's steel, the manufacturing, the innards... even the innards was changed.

Interviewer: So what was the end result? How does it compare to 120 mm?

Zhu YuSheng: Better than 120 mm.

Interviewer: More powerful.

Aside from fire power, fire control is also important. Type 99 has a huge improvement in this area compared to our older tanks.

Zhu YuSheng: Fire control is about accuracy and tracking. It is all automatic. That is, when the opponent moves, you lock on and the cross hair follows, matching his speed. Then there is range finder, continuously and accurately measuring the distance. These measure his velocity very accurately to determine where he will be in the future. That's where to hit.

Interviewer: It can do that?

Zhu YuSheng: Of course, it's a computer. No matter the target is static or mobile, I can hit it. There is no running away. As long as I can lock-on, there is no running away.

Interviewer: Before Type 99, could we not achieve this?

Zhu YuSheng: We could not achieve this.

Interviewer: This ability starts from Type 99?

Zhu YuSheng: Before, only static targets can be tracked. Once the target moves, it all depends on the operator's experience. Our tank has another feature: you can lock onto empty space. Once the opponent gets in, the gun automatically fires.

Tanks have a nickname called "kings of land battle", but its life-or-death is determined by the armour. Type 99's armour is comparable to any advanced tank in the world.

Zhu YuSheng: Armor, this add-on armour of mine. It won't be penetrated by large projectiles, never-mind the smaller ones. Projectile strikes my armour, the armour pushes the projectile aside. Explosion from the projectile can't pass through the armour. There is also active projection. When the projectile is still a safe distance away, I can already track it, automatically.

Interviewer: Detect the projectile coming?

Zhu YuSheng: It comes, and the computer calculates where the projectile will go. At that point, I send out a shell to within a meter, ensuring destruction (of the projectile) within that vicinity. Moreover, this system doesn't need human inputs. All it needs is a switch, a flip and the system automatically detects and tracks. After detection, the system aims at the threat.

Interviewer: At that time, was such technology installed on foreign tanks?

Zhu YuSheng: At that time, I had yet to see anyone has it.

Due to technical constraints of the engine, mobility became a relative weakness of Type 99. Even so, Zhu Yusheng mitigate the lack of power with other solutions.

Zhu YuSheng: The situation with power is this. M1-A2 has 1500 HP. Many thinks 1500 HP means advance, but it isn't. It is a fallacy. The key is power-to-weight ratio: how much power for moving one-ton, right?

Interviewer: Right.

Zhu YuSheng: Look at M1-A2, it is 60 tons, so the power-to-weight ratio is only 23.8 HP/ton.

Interviewer: 23.8 HP/ton.

Zhu YuSheng: 23.8 HP moves one ton. Ours is a bit higher, but mobility is the same, speed is the same. What about fuel consumption? Decreasing consumption isn't just a tank issue, but can relief a huge load on supplies and logistics.

Interviewer: So the result is Type 99?

Zhu YuSheng: Similar mobility, better fire power, better armour. We also used some new technologies, M1-A2 still hasn't used them but we've used them already.

Interviewer: For example? Without breaking security rules, can you talk about it?

Zhu YuSheng: Active protection. Not only that, but chaffs.

Interviewer: At that time, foreign tanks do no have these systems?

Zhu YuSheng: No. When they were still researching, ours were already equipped.

86.182.32.83 (talk) 20:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Right. We shall see how long this version of translation stays up this time. 86.182.32.83 (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)