Talk:Spiro Koleka

Greek

Endribinaj (talk · contribs) removed the reference regarding Koleka's belonging to the Greek community with the comment "Dear Wikipedia editors. I am one of the same family as Spiro Koleka. We are not Greeks! The last name Koleka is of a catholic origin comprised of the names Kol + Leka. Please do not spread rumors as to our ethnicity. Spiro never spoke Greek." As to stop future vandalism and open a dialogue to possible vandals: Spiro Koleka is mentioned as having been part of the Greek community – this is supported by the facts that the village of Vuna is historically Greek, and still today partly Greek-speaking. His name, Spiro, is derived from Greek, while the surname, based on your claim, could only derive from diminutives of Nicholas (Kol) and Alexander (Leka), both which are derived through Greek. On Wikipedia, we adhere to Neutral point-of-view. Please understand that Spiro's Greek origin does not make your family less Albanian.--Zoupan 00:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan (talk · contribs) stop vandalizing the page that I created for Spiro Koleka! I know better his origin as he was my family member! I will report you for spreading separatist propaganda with your Wikipedia edits. I am the second family member addressing this concern to you, but you are still forcing this false information through. If you have a source make sure that it is accurate and credible. If someone challenges the accuracy of your source it is your duty to investigate the claim and remove the contested text until clarified. You cannot bully other people in Wikipedia just because you are a more experienced user. The village of Vuno is not Greek speaking, historically Greek, or a minority village. If you insist, then provide an official/historic proof of the opposite. Himara is not a village as your source says, but it is a city. If you insist, then provide an official/historic proof of the opposite. Spiro Koleka does not have a Greek origin just because someone wrote that he has, although not showing any evidence. Having a Greek name does not mean that a person is Greek. Half the world has Jewish names, but that does not imply they are Jewish, obviously. I do not understand your zeal into telling us where we come from when we know better than you and do not need to read two lines out of a booklet of 54 pages that you found on the internet. Keep your edits constructive and away from propaganda. Try to stay away from editing information that is unknown to you. Respect other users less experienced than you. Burridheut 21:31, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:OWN and WP:NPOV. I have provided a reference, perhaps you could refute it with another one. The Vuno elders, interestingly, identify as Northern Epirotes, see Basilēs G. Nitsiakos; Vassilis Nitsiakos (2010). On the Border: Transborder Mobility, Ethnic Groups and Boundaries Along the Albanian-Greek Frontier. LIT Verlag Münster. pp. 466–. ISBN 978-3-643-10793-0.. Himara is a town. I mentioned the name only because Endribinaj (talk · contribs) did claim that somehow his name would be "evidence" that he was of Albanian Catholic origin rather than Greek. I am not telling you where you come from, and your reply only shows that you have a very narrow view of what Albanian nationality means.--Zoupan 17:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

My view is as narrow as your understanding of the history of the region you are mentioning and its people. Just because a book mentions some elders (without names, or historic data to support it) that claim that they are north Epirotes, does not mean that Spiro Koleka was of Greek origin. So please stop beating around the bush and remove the contested text yourself from the page of Spiro Koleka. I don't have time to go through more than a 100 years of Greek separatist propaganda with you and convince you of the opposite. If you cannot prove that Spiro Koleka had Greek or otherwise minority origin through an official document or reference to an official government document, then please cease this campaign of cyber-bullying and remove your disputed text from my article asap! This perhaps is amusing for you, but for me and my family it is not. This is highly insulting towards us, especially coming from a person with no clue regarding our origin! You need to respect other people that know their own history and lineage better than you. Keep this professional please. Burridheut

This is not your article. Is the fact that Edi Rama's mother belonged to the family, and that somehow Koleka's Greek origin would discredit him or the family, have anything to do with it? I think that you simply don't like it.--Zoupan 17:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Now you showed your motivation to deform history! It's about politics! How unprofessional! Here, the Spiro GOGO Koleka you are talking about is another one. There is a full book about him (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B05baDRIUAAHQA3.jpg). The Spiro Koleka I have written about is another one. He is Spiro THOMA Koleka. I told you that you don't know his history. Now leave that article as it was and stop making propaganda on this page. Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

What? Elsie calls the communist-period Spiro Koleka, this article, as "Spiro Gogo Koleka". His father according to Elsie was "Spiro J. Koleka". Your comment makes no sense, and still doesn't refute that Koleka was of the Greek community.--Zoupan 17:50, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• Koleka, Spiro (1), "Spiro J. Koleka", father
• Koleka, Spiro (2), "Spiro Gogo Koleka", son

If Spiro Koleka had the middle name Thoma, you can present the source here. It does, however, not change anything other than his middle name.--Zoupan 17:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Jorgo Koleka (born 1879) and Spiro Gogo Koleka (studied in Austria) are the same person. Gogo as a name is short form of Jorgo. So, until here there is no father and no son, just one person. This Spiro Koleka was not communist, but has had the same position in the Albanian government as the other, later Spiro Koleka which was born 29 years later (studied in Italy)!!! There is another wikipedia page about the Spiro Gogo Koleka but it is only in albanian. The Spiro Koleka in this article is the second one, not related at all (let alone being the son) with the first one. The Spiro Thoma Koleka this article is about died in 2001. If he was the same person as the first one we would have been 121 years old! I told you to check the numbers, but you kept spamming the article! You are writing about another person, not related by family. Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 18:10, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, you make no sense. Elsie seems to have used "Gogo" erranously. Still doesn't change anything regarding this article. This Spiro Koleka (died 2001), is the son of Spiro Jorgos Koleka (died 1940), with Jorgos being 28 at the time of the birth. I cannot find "Thoma" anywhere. If you have a source that claims that Spiro Koleka was not the son of Spiros Jorgos, you may present it here. Now to another question: A comment at a newspaper article says that Koleka was Greek, and had a brother, Petros, the father of Aneta Koleka, and also that they had ancestry of the Nousis family. Are there sources that say that Aneta Koleka and Spiros Koleka were relatives?--Zoupan 18:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• I created the article of his father, Spiro Jorgo Koleka.--Zoupan 18:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Maybe he is your father. Let's add that to wikipedia, shall we? --Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:47, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Found an article about Edi Rama being a relative of Spiro here.--Zoupan 18:37, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

Please do not remove the references, and add your personal views. Read WP:OR.--Zoupan 19:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Father

• Robert Elsie (24 December 2012). A Biographical Dictionary of Albanian History. I.B.Tauris. p. 243–244. ISBN 978-1-78076-431-3. Spiro J. Koleka ... 1880 ... minister of public works in several cabinets ... He is not to be confused with his son of the same name, Spiro Koleka [2] of the communist period ... Koleka, Spiro ... 1908
• Paul Preston; Michael Partridge; Piers Ludlow (2005). British Documents on Foreign Affairs: Reports and Papers from the Foreign Office Confidential Print. LexisNexis. p. 449. ISBN 978-0-88692-724-0. Koleka, Spiro Born 1908 near Himara. Member of small family of landowners. Son of King Zog's Minister of Public Works {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Spiro Jorgo Koleka was, according to sources, the father of Spiro Koleka.--Zoupan 08:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

According to Spiro Thoma Koleka himself, his family relatives, and HIS OWN GRAVE STONE he is the son of THOMA Koleka. Your sources are incorrect, they have no official references, as you can see if you read any of those and this edit war of yours is just pathetic. --Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Present reliable (correct) sources. Take it easy, breathe, you have time to unravel the mystery.--Zoupan 20:44, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

• Copying the below from User_talk:Burridheut#July_2015:--Zoupan 08:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

His daughter's interview. Iliriana Koleka (so much for the Greek, where did you read such claims by the way?) talks about her father. http://www.pakufije.com/2015/05/30/intervistavajza-e-spiro-kolekes-ne-10-vitet-e-fundit-te-jetes-se-enverit-komanduan-ramizi-dhe-nexhmija/

And this for his role in 1912.https://books.google.com/books?id=SyqxwWsygjAC&pg=PA141&dq=spiro+koleka+jorgo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMI2uv5iP7qxgIVg9UeCh2vZwH2#v=onepage&q=spiro%20koleka%20jorgo&f=false

Elsie got it wrong. It is not the first time. I.e. he states that Josif Bageri was Catholic while he was Orthodox. This because he doesn't focus much on ethnicity, origin, etc, rather focuses on what the person did. He is still a great expert, he just doesn't pay much attention because it is not important to him.

Zoupan, you got it wrong this time. Let's remove those "Northern Epirotes" tags which wrongfully point to a Greek identity.Mondiad (talk) 00:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mondiad: what does the interview say? That is his father, Spiro Jorgo Koleka, obviously you have not understood the article nor talk pages. If there is no refutation I don't see any of the references being removed. I would not remove "Northern Epirotes" as its describes his ethnic origin according to references.--Zoupan 08:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The article indicates that Koleka family is not Greek as strangely is pretended. You can get a fairly good translation via Google translate tool. The article does not refer anywhere to the other Spiro Koleka who allegedly is his father. Spiro J. Koleka, or Spiro Jorgo (Koleka) as mentioned in some sources, means Spiro, son of Jorgo (Gogo) from Koleka clan. Spiro Thoma Koleka means Spiro, son of Thoma, from Koleka clan. Thoma is not a not a middle name. I don't know why Elsie got so confused with these two, neither I care much, but they are not father-son. Of course they are related as the last name indicates it.Mondiad (talk) 11:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Indicates how exactly? "Pretended"? We still need a reliable source that refutes that they were father and son – commenting that they weren't doesn't help.--Zoupan 12:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I got you a reliable source, but this discussion is getting ridiculous to "convince" someone who already knows the truth very well by now. Here is the wedding certificate (http://i.imgur.com/xXHKx6o.jpg?1) of Spiro Thoma Koleka & his wife that proves their NAMES, FATHER & mother names, nationality & citizenship. This document is OFFICIAL from the state, issued in the year 2001 and it seals all speculation from your side @Zoupan:. Also, the fact that I am presenting you these personal, family documents should be enough to remove any doubt from your mind that I am part of his close family and know him very well. Now, as you can see/read from the marriage certificate, Spiro Thoma Koleka is the son of Thoma, thus no close relationship with Spiro Jorgo Koleka. This SIMPLE FACT shows the inaccuracy of your sources also with regards to his ethnic background. If you got 50% of his DNA wrong, so you cannot claim to really know the guy's lineage. Perhaps these "great historians" that you refer to think that one gets his ethnic background from his wife (since Spiro's wife was of Greek nationality, born in Corfu, see document), but that is not the case. Each one his own. So, please remove your inaccurate information from this article right away and do something more productive. You could edit e topic that you really have knowledge in, for instance. --Burridheut 14:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the certificate, if it is you who took the photo please upload it at commons.wikimedia.org. As the certificate refutes Elsie's stating that Spiro Koleka was the son of Spiro Jorgo Koleka, I have removed (only) Elsie from the article, and ommitted the previous sentence regarding Spiro Jorgo Koleka. The other references which explicitly state him as being part of the Greek community do not mention Jorgo, and are thus not affected by this. Do you have any information on how close the two were relatives? The fact that he married a Greek only points that he belonged to the Albanian Greek community. I am disregarding the rest of your comment. --Zoupan 23:16, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The photo is not for open public use as it is a personal document of the family and we do not intend to make it part of wikipedia. Contrary to what you believe, being married to a person that is 50% greek and born in Corfu does not make you part of a greek community, obviously. You use some weird kind of logic which I do not recognize as logic as all. However I want to help you and therefore am guiding you through the facts. If you see the certificate carefully there is no evidence in it that Spiro is greek, on the contrary he is Albanian as stated clearly in the paper. His wife on the other hand being the daughter of Jani Aroni (Greek citizen, see surname in maiden name in right corner below) has on the certificate that she is greek. So the certificate is very clear on who is greek and who is not. Remember that these are the years before the borders were closed and people were marrying more freely than the years that came after. Also, you must understand that of all places that were greek speaking, Corfu had the closest relationship with Himara and some villages such as Dhermi. In times of war, Corfu was a safe heaven for the women and children to escape while the men were fighting the next invader. Also the largest volume of trade was being conducted with Corfu for many many years, these people were really close, not blood related however. But today, pseudo-historians do not look at the historic evidence, they instead classify people at the most convenient way for their agenda, or just take shortcuts because for them these things don't matter. How can they classify as greeks people that speak greek? The whole world speaks english today, including us here, but does that make us british or american? There is a huge lie spread over many years on the greek presence in Albania. The latest population census tore that lie apart. Albanians speak and have always spoken Greek, Italian, Turkish, French, Latin, Old Greek, etc. besides the native Albanian tongue. That does not make them less Albanian in favor of the nationalities that these languages represent. If you live in a small economy, you need to trade with your neighbors in order to survive. We are not Germany, or France, or the US who are so big and so powerful that their citizens don't have a real need to learn foreign languages. This is a discussion that will take many years to settle, and I do not claim to have all the facts here, neither do I have the time or will to discuss this, but for Spiro Koleka I am extremely well informed and know his family lineage (and mine) from 1560. Yes, you read the year correctly. Burridheut (talk) 07:53, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Basically, you are calling the Greeks in Albania a lie. 1560? Who was your ancestor? Your comments gets more interesting for each day.--Zoupan 09:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not calling the greeks in Albania a lie, but their number is very low. It is artificially inflated by some pseudo-historians such as the ones you refer to regarding Spiro Koleka. He as an individual was so against the greeks and their chauvinist agenda that it is utterly ridiculous that such man is labeled as one of them. Also many modern day greeks (especially in these lands) are in fact Arvanitians, but that is another discussion, I will not let you drag me into that one. Since you ask, our first ancestor in our family tree is called Nike Gjinaj, there is a historic record of him in 1560. I have the full family tree of course, all based on official/historic records, but that not for public use. It will be published in a book at some point, you can read it then, if you will still be interested. For now, the best service you can do to the wikipedia community, to Spiro Koleka and to your own credibility is to revert your edits, removing vorioepirote / greek texts and labels. You might not like it, but that is the fair thing to do, facing all the evidences presented to you by me so far. If the truth is what you are looking for, you have found it, but I think it is another agenda that you have. Burridheut (talk) 10:47, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not going to revert myself. You chose to not capitalize Greek and Greeks (but did to Albania and Arvanitians) in the above comment. --Zoupan 16:16, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh no! This sounds like a UN human rights violation! Shall we call for an extraordinary meeting of the Security Council Mr. Secretary of grammar? Stick to the discussion and quit playing smart please. Burridheut (talk) 18:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Manipulation of sourced content

It appears that we have large scale wp:own, especially in the case of Himara, which is traditionally seen as a predominantly Greek town. [[1]]. Burridheut needs to explain why a mountain of reference in the correspondent article is useless according to him.Alexikoua (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

The claims that Himara is Greek, or Ethnic Greek, or Predominantly Greek, or Inherently Greek...or you name it, are part of an effort from the Greek state to create a so called Vorioepirote (Northern Epirote) region and claim for a referendum of autonomy (or independence perhaps) from Albania so that it latter joins Greece. That is a long term plan that has been advancing steadily, but has never succeeded. In 1912 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara_revolt_of_1912) a small group of men, few days before Albania declares independence from the Ottoman Empire, hurry up and raise the Greek flag and a new vorioepirote flag (the latter one has both Greek flag elements (colors, pattern) and Albanian flag elements (double headed eagle)). They tried to create a new identity, Northern Epirus, part of Greece. They were unsuccessful though, as they did not get support from the population and Himara was joined to the rest of Albania, not Greece, or autonomous/independent. However, the struggle of these men and the state who financed them carries on. The propaganda continues, the separatist movement is alive. The census of 2011 clarifies the population composition though, only 24.56% declare themselves as Greek. Here included the ones that are 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 Greek in lineage. So, there is no Predominant Greek presence in Himara, predominant means 50% of the city + at least one more person. That is not the case, no matter what the greek state funded historians say, it is not more than 24.56%. Burridheut (talk) 20:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It appears you are in a large scale ethnic campaign here, since Pettifer&Vickers (Greek state funded historians? off course you are kidding) are clearly pro-Albanian authors, thus your claim can be easily dismissed. Moreover, you intentionally ignore the fact that this census was largely boycotted and the results do not reflect any real demographic values.Alexikoua (talk) 02:54, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Please comment at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents thread.--Zoupan 05:40, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut (talk · contribs) is a historian, ethnologist and demographer, and not to forget, a conspiracy theorist. We should believe everything he says, not. He claims that the 2011 census is the "truth", however, it is regarded by the Council of Europe as unreliable and inaccurate. No surprise. --Zoupan 06:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Please put credible sources to your claims. Otherwise they constitute gossip. Disputed? Council of Europe? No surprise? You are too funny!

Zoupan (talk · contribs) I am not on an ethnic campaign here (first difference between us two) and just to remind you, I was answering to a question made by Alexikoua (talk · contribs) to the best of my personal knowledge. Be polite and keep your insults to yourself. Keep in mind that this discussion is about Spiro Koleka. You are dragging it into an ethnic, historic, folkloric discussion. No matter how amusing this is to you, the discussion still remains about Spiro Koleka. The census is official and your sources are inaccurate. Professor Pettifer may not be a Greek-founded historian, but the original source of information he is based upon with regards to Spiro Koleka's lineage for sure is. I sent him a letter yesterday to review his sources and I am hoping he will rectify this inaccuracy very soon. I want to remind you that my accuracy regarding Spiro Koleka's personal and family information has been so far 100% and fully documented by official records. Yours has been 0% and with little potential for improvement. Burridheut (talk) 11:25, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Elsie's bibliographical dictionary does state he was born in Vuno. Vuno is identified as a Orthodox Albanian speaking village within the wider Himara area (Nitsiakos, Vassilis (2010). On the border: Transborder mobility, ethnic groups and boundaries along the Albanian-Greek frontier. LIT Verlag. p. 99. "According to the latest census in the area, the Greek-speaking population is larger but not necessarily continuous and concentrated. The exclusively Greek-speaking villages, apart from Himarë, are Queparo Siperme, Dhërmi and Palasë. The rest are inhabited by Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians (Kallivretakis 1995:25-58); Kallivretakis, Leonidas (1995). "Η ελληνική κοινότητα της Αλβανίας υπό το πρίσμα της ιστορικής γεωγραφίας και δημογραφίας [The Greek Community of Albania in terms of historical geography and demography." In Nikolakopoulos, Ilias, Kouloubis Theodoros A. & Thanos M. Veremis (eds). Ο Ελληνισμός της Αλβανίας [The Greeks of Albania]. University of Athens. p. 53.) Regarding Orthodox Albanian speaking people in general though as they have been “between identities” of either choosing the Albanian linguistic one over one that gives them religious commonalty with the Greeks (and thus a common ethnic identity according to some) over the past 150 years, Koleka’s identification as “Greek” by Petiffer may(and I stress this word may) suffice. This matter is also interesting considering that Koleka is the uncle of Edi Rama. Spiro’s sister is Edi’s mum. Dare I say it, I wonder would we say that Edi Rama is a “Greek” too? Things to think about.Resnjari (talk) 18:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari, I need to reply to this. Speaking Greek does not make you Greek, just as speaking English does not make us British or American. Tomorrow perhaps our grandchildren will speak Mandarin, so it does not really tell much about someones lineage. Also when you mention Christian Orthodoxy it is important to emphasize that these is Albanian Orthodoxy and Greek Orthodoxy.They are not one and this is a very important distinction, although it might seem minor at fist sight. As you probably know, Albanians are not very religious people, so religion is not a good criteria to divide them in groups. There are exceptions to this though, but it is common to find Albanians of different religions and regions that have mixed with one another. Remember that Ali Pasha's wife Vasiliqi was Christian whereas he was muslim himself. Similar examples you will find everywhere and they are a sign of a modern society (signs of open-mindedness, tolerance, mobility). Coming back to the subject person. Spiro Thoma Koleka was not Greek, neither part of a minority. it will be impossible for anyone to prove Spiros Greek lineage because it is just a myth. For your info, it is very difficult to find an ethnic Greek (note the word Greek, I am not saying Greek speaking) in the village of Vuno. There are many in Dhermi and in some neighborhoods of the other villages, but in Vuno there are more polar bears than ethnic Greeks! Until recently many Albanians have taken the Greek passport because it was very convenient to be a member of the EU if you are Albanian. You got to travel freely, work in the EU area, get state assistance in case of unemployment, healthcare covered etc. So, for a poor Albanian working all day for 300€ a month, it was not a bad thing to have an additional passport. Also many older people have gotten a Greek passport and get a free pension that is higher than the average salary in Albania (no wonder how the Greek state has a black hole of 300 Billion Euros, they have been giving away free money all over the place). Anyway, getting the passport does not make you ethnic Greek, it just makes you ALSO a Greek CITIZEN, besides Albanian. Dual citizenship in Albania is allowed, so who am I to say that it is bad. The law is clear, the state does not care, the economy is bad, so people survive with what they can.

Last but not least. Edi Rama's mother is Aneta, but she is not Spiro's sister. Spiro's sister died in 1941 during the Greco-Italian war, so yes, she died 74 years ago at the age of 45. She would have been 119 years old if she was alive today so she is far from being even the same generation as Aneta. The whole point with Zoupan's persistence of Spiro's "greekness" is to invent a Greek lineage of the current prime minister of Albania. This is his agenda, it is not hidden as he has written about it himself. But the truth is that there is no such lineage whatsoever. We could talk more about the prime minister, his mother etc., but I am afraid that this is beyond the topic at hand, i.e. Spiro Koleka. Burridheut (talk) 20:55, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. I rushed when i wrote my comment. Spiro Koleka is Edi's grandfather. [2] . I understand what you have said, yet for the past 150 years sizable parts of the Orthodox Albanian community are the main ones who are constantly undergoing these "identity issues". Yes some have done so for money, but others have also adopted Greek ideas of identity and also very negative views of (Muslim) Albanians and their Albanian identity in general that Greek society holds. Also I pointed out with peer reviewed material that Vuno is considered by Greek researchers as being populated by Albanians at least in the 1990s (Kallivretakis) and Nitsiakos (2010) and you can use that to make the case here.Resnjari (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

What about a century ago (Koleka was born in 1908), did Vuno have a Greek identity? Greek guerrilla bands were active in the village (Kaphetzopoulos; Flokas; Dima-Dimitriou (2000). The struggle for Northern Epirus. Hellenic Army General Staff. The band of Guerrilla Leader Georgios Tsolakes (55 men), to the bands in Vouno). Nitsiakos states that today Vuno ("carefully") identifies as Northern Epirote. As Himara was out of the minority zone it was strongly Albanianized, which should also be taken into consideration. Edi Rama can't and shouldn't be regarded or identified as Greek.--Zoupan 20:20, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs), sorry but you got it wrong again. Please do not use online gossip-newspapers a sources, as they are even more inaccurate. In addition, if you have a look at the article you refer to, you will see in the top of it a writing in bold that says "Spekullim" meaning "Speculation" in Albanian. But seriously, refrain from using these references, they are not historic, but purely speculative. Edi Rama is not the grandson of Spiro. Regarding the peer reviewed material, thanks for the source. Burridheut (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Its why i used that in the talk page, not the article. A sizable number of Albanian outlets have made that claim though.Resnjari (talk)

Nitsiakos also states that Orthodox Albanians in general where confused about their identity, the later stages of the nineteenth century (Nitsiakos. On the border. 2010. p. 153. “The influence of Hellenism on the Albanian Orthodox was such that, when the Albanian national idea developed, in the three last decades of the 19th century, they were greatly confused regarding their national identity.)”. As in your comment that Nitsiakos states that some people identify as Northern Epirote is problematic, especially regarding Vuno. He also has stated that some Muslims also identify with that tag. In the book On the border he has made the reference that when Orthodox Albanians said some of that "Northern Epriote" stuff to him, they where playing around with it and being ambivalent (p.315. Those who live in Greece describe themselves as Greeks from Northern Epirus, while those who stayed in Albania are integrated into the Albanian Christian Orthodox population; after 1990 the “play” with the ambivalence of the term “Northern Epirote”; in Greece to be “Northern Epirote” means to be Greek.) Be aware of that too in current day contexts. I also have the book. There has been no wide ranging study about the changes that have occurred in southern Albania due to migration to Greece, the church run by a Greek hierarchy and so on. Kallivretakis is the last peer reviewed study of that kind and it was done in the 1990s. As for Greek sources mentioning Vuno supporting Greek bands. True. Muslim Albanian ones supported Ottoman ones. So. Did people in Vuno solely do so because they felt "ethnically" Greek or because they felt a kinship due to shared Orthodoxy? A similar question could be asked of Muslim Albanians of the time. Also, parts of the Himara area was Albanianised as much as it was Hellenised. Greek schools operated in Orthodox Albanian villages in the latter part of the 19th century. Greek identity as understood today amongst them was not present prior to these events of the late nineteenth century. Being identified as Greek just meant Orthodox in past times. In the age of nationalisms, it acquired new national affiliation overtones. The only Greek speaking villages in the area were and are Dhermi, Himara, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's. Edi Rama is also a descendant of Spiro. Resnjari (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Vuno never had a Greek identity. It had some grecophiles back then, and it still has, although small in number. All of them are Albanian though. You must understand that the largest part of the population in Vuno has lived in survival conditions for many many years. Perhaps you don't know this, but the village has suffered the lack of drinking water and also the food was scarce. The number of men migrating away from Vuno towards Greece, Italy or elsewhere was very high. The village was not big enough to have a sustainable and thriving economy, without its immigrants it was unable to survive. I don't think that anyone living in Greece would have wanted to migrate to Vuno. To put it nicely, it would not have been an upgrade of their living conditions. Burridheut (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, Edi Rama is not a descendant of Spiro. They are part of the same family tree though. Burridheut (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have some kind of biography or something in Albanian that could be used as a source/s for Spiro Koleka. Vickers and Pettifer are at times "loose with the facts" when it comes to many issues (not just this one). So are some of the other authors who state that Sprio was born in Himara town. They have conflated the region which at times is called Himara with the town, which makes those sources also have credibility issues. Now you got me curious though Burridheut, how is Edi related to Spiro (a great nephew, cousin etc)?Resnjari (talk) 11:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a biography at this moment about Spiro. It will be published sometime though. The publication will include our family tree from 1560, there you will see also where Edi Rama and other important figures of the past fit. For now I would like not to spoil that publication, I hope you understand. Spiro Koleka was a man too important not to be written about, but also to be written inaccurately about. That is why I insist in correcting this article and will do so until it is accurate for the public. The inaccuracies about Himara and Vuno are appalling as well. As you point out, Himara is not just a city but a whole Region including the villages around it. There are strong interests to call Himara Greek. The Greek state has thrown countless millions of euros to "buy" the history of Himara by giving pensions, passports, benefits but also by political intimidation towards the weak Albanian state (Greece is part of the EU, as we know). In some villages of Himara the presence of grecophiles has increased over the years, many people have acquired Greek names and passports, however their family roots are very easy to uncover and the absolute majority is Albanian. As a proof that Spiro was not greek, please refer to his Gravestone picture (http://i.imgur.com/pAJ5FLt.jpg). His name is not written in Greek (Σπύρος) form and alphabet, but in Albanian. So his fathers name, written as Thoma and not Θωμάς. So the surname. All Albanian. If you want to see a Greek gravestone and with what letters it is written then see here (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KBnct994Yxk/UCjG1DmELvI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/h5E9XQj-gUc/s1600/391472_410321965692444_693399495_n.jpg). The difference is really easy to spot. Burridheut (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that his name is written in Albanian on his gravestone does not refute a Greek background, after all, he was Hoxha's minister (a communist).--Zoupan 12:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Is "Greek background" your latest version now? You have written in the article that he was born in a "Greek FAMILY"! Do you even know the difference between your two claims? Or it just does not matter for you since the whole thing is made up? Why would (a so called Greek) communist have his name on his gravestone written in Albanian if he were a Greek? Communism is not an ethnicity! Do you really think that if he was democrat his name would have been written in Greek letters? LOL! What kind of twisted logic is that? He died in 2001, long time after communism and is buried in the graveyard of the Vuno village by his family. Go there and see the graves of the other people buried in the last two centuries, then come and tell us how many Greeks have lived in that village that you know nothing about. Burridheut (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, in this exmaple as some sources state Koleka was born in the town of Himara, which is not the case, calls into doubt those sources as well about him being Greek. The important question here is did Koleka identify himself as a Greek? Is there any evidence that he himself identified with the Greek minority ? I ask this because Greek editors have often put this question to Albanian editors regarding some figures who have some connection with Albanian identity, culture language etc but have identified as Greek and called themselves as such. Is there a credible source that states Koleka identified as a Greek (considering that his birthplace Vuno is inhabited by Orthodox Albanians or Orthodox Albanian speakers) ? Resnjari (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Note that the references were published during his lifetime. The doubting is implausible - Vuno is directly connected to Himara, being the nearest village. I don't think that the "important question" is his identity – him having belonged to the Greek community does not refute his Albanianess (Albanian nationality, service to Albanian state, etc.), which Burridheut seems to misunderstand, and you are now hinting at. As said previously, he was born in 1908; if this village did not espouse a Greek identity at that time should be easier for you to find out. The Greek school (1909), Greek rebel bands, and Greek toponym (vouno, "mountain") are evidence of Greek presence, thus I deem your continued insistence of having this fact removed as baseless. 1908 is not today. Vuno, being outside the Minority Zone, was without a doubt Albanianized since incorporation in Albania. Overall, there are few sources mentioning Koleka. I thought you were far more reasonable than other Albania-editing users. Hypothetically, an "Albanian identity" while still being of "Greek identity" origin would not determine that the latter be omitted from a biography.--Zoupan 19:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

For one toponyms are not indicative of a village's ethnicity. Greece has many villages that have a Slavic etymology. Are they Slavic on that account? Of course Vuno is directly connected to Himara, but it is a settlement in its own right. The matter is the authors have not distinguished Himara town from Himara region. They specifically say that Koleka was from Himara town. That already calls into question the sources credibility at the very least. As for Greek bands operating in Orthodox Albanian speaking regions, it happened all over the place. How is that indicative that the village being "Greek". In Macedonia, there were many cases where Greek bands went into Slavic villages coercing them to side with Greek cause (see: Anastasia Karakasidou: 'Fields of wheat, hills of Blood' book). How is one Greek in that case? During that era, as Nitsiakos clearly states, Orthodox Albanians were confused in the latter part of the 19th century regarding their identity, due in part to the emergence of the national Albanian movement. Interpreting that they are Greek, one must be very cautious about it, as Greek apart from ethnic connotations also meant just "Orthodox". It would be important in this case to have a source where Koleka himself identified as Greek to prove the issue beyond doubt. Otherwise in the article it should state that "according to some sources it states that Koleka was of Greek heritage", considering that they have mixed up Himara region with town, getting Koleka's birthplace wrong. One in this case can ask what else have they got wrong? Resnjari (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

You can speculate as much as you want but you will make neither Spiro nor Vuno & Himara more Greek by repeating yourself indefinitely. There is no evidence about Spiro's Greek-community belonging. All you have is Pettifer that says Spiro was ethnic Greek. Where did Pettifer get the facts about Spiro? Only God knows. I invite you to check the website of the Vuno village and see for yourself http://vunovillage.com/vunoi

There is some interesting quote by Edward Lear there: _{I was very surprised by the buildings in Vuno, such as the Kasneci one. They give you the feeling of Venetian “Palazzi”, as well as other constructions around rural area in Italy. The people of Himara use the Italian language more than anyone in Albania. In every village of this region I went, I noticed that despite the fact that they are Greek orthodox by religion, they are all Albanians, with some small exceptions.}

Also, Zoupan, better not mention the Greek school of Vuno from 1909 as it is too recent, the school building itself in Vuno (still standing) is more than 200 years old! There are historic records of Albanian schools in Himara since 1627, in Vuno and Palasa since 1632 and Dhërmi since 1660. A bit weird that your greek school opened 280 years later, since you claim Himara to be PREDOMINANTLY Greek. As I said since this discussion started, this is purely separatist Greek propaganda. Burridheut (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Until Burridheut conveices Vickers & Petiffer that they are wrong and the latter publish their apology that Koleka isn't of Greek origin as they claim, the current version stays in this article. In general everything else is clear manipulation of sourced content. Burridheut should repsect wp:rs instead of promoting conspiracy theories of supposed Greek-funded institutions that insist to falsify history.Alexikoua (talk) 07:13, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

And who exactly do you think you are to decide what stays and what goes??? If an information is inaccurate it cannot stay. Spiro was not born in a Greek family , there is no shred of evidence supporting this. Not a single historic document. I sent an email to Prof. Petiffer to check his sources, but I have no authority over that man. Maybe he rectifies it, maybe he issues a note, but maybe he never publishes anything else mentioning Spiro Koleka! So what does that mean? Does that make Spiro Greek? Don't be ridiculous! Btw. you seem to have a lot of problems here on wikipedia with several users complaining about your propaganda edits. Can't you just report facts and leave fiction out of here? Burridheut (talk) 14:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

If someone has a background of X ethnicity this doesn't mean he is an X national/citizen, see for example Prs. Obama. I'm afraid that by not convincing the author this can't be removed. However, if you can find wp:rs which claims something different we can add that "he is of Greek family background according to Pettifer and of another background by another author."Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Obama is not the same story I am afraid. Obama has a parent that is African and you can trace him. Spiro has no one you can trace in Greece. Look at the surname, it is not Greek. If you can prove that he is even 25% of Greek origin I will withdraw. But if you cannot, then this inaccuracy is removed. In addition I would like you all to remember one simple fact. I posted Spiros marriage certificate here! I AM FAMILY! How do you think I got his certificate? Do you think I broke into his house and stole it just to win an argument over the internet against anonymous people??? Why don't you use logic? If I challenge your sources then you have to look into them. The information inside the sources about Spiro is not referenced!!! It is neither scientific or based on historical records. How can you insist so much in it just because Petiffer says so? This is a disgrace to humanity and I appeal to your conscience and do the right thing. I challenge your sources! Burridheut (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that Koleka was Greek.However,there is a reference so we have to respect that.As Alexikoua said,If someone has a background of X ethnicity this doesn't mean he is an X national/citizen,see for example Arvanites.They have Greek citizenship now,but they are Albanians by ancestry. In one of her books,Iliriana Koleka (his daughter) says that their family originates from Vuno.In fact,while speaking for their origin,she doesn't mention any Greece.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Due to the Orthodox Albanians and their identity fluidity or issues with identity in general, Koleka is complicated. Alexikoua's is right about adding multiple views regarding Koleka's identity would suffice. Rolandi, do you have Iliriana's book and page number as to where she talks about their family origins. Her bit would more than count into going into the article.Resnjari (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE!: Alexikoua (talk · contribs), Resnjari (talk · contribs), Endribinaj (talk · contribs), Rolandi+ (talk · contribs), Zoupan (talk · contribs). I found an article about Spiro Koleka written right after his death about his life. The article is written in the newspaper "Zëri i së Vertetës", issue of September 2001 (http://imgur.com/vYUkz1d). The article is signed by 9 people, members of the Communist Party of Albania. In the article it is written among other things: 1. Spiro Koleka was born in Vuno. 2. Born in a family of highly patriotic history (Greece loses Spiro here, he remains an Albanian Patriot after all.) Burridheut (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I wonder what makes wp:rs a newspaper-organ of a political party, such as this one. Actually such evidence is the definition of non-rs, which can't refute secondary reliable material.Alexikoua (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Very well, I see you are able to make a distinction among the reliability of sources. But here is another publication, this one is the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, see bottom right of page: http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs Burridheut (talk) 16:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut (talk · contribs), do you have access to books and so on about Vuno that where written in a post communist period (1992 onwards) (During communism sources are an issue due to the communist state having overarching influence in some of the literary material produced during that time. That would be the best and most authoritative source regarding the matter in placing an alternate view regarding Koleka's ethnicity. No one would be able to challenge that going into the article. Find the page in those books about Koleka being Albanian. Then write that out here, the page and the few sentences that deal with that and then we can put into the article. Makes things easier for everyone.Resnjari (talk) 23:12, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs) there are not many books written about Spiro Koleka in post-communism time. I have one more article though, published after his death in 2001. The article is written by Anastas Kondo, also from Vuno, a very close friend and colleague of Spiro koleka. Read here: http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and here: http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm . Please remember that Spiro was not an important figure during post-communist time and he was in his 80s and 90s, so not an active politician anymore. However, you need to know that Spiro Was alive in 1985 when the Encyclopedia was published and has not protested for any inaccuracy.

I will need to explain here that although I am providing articles and links, I do not have to prove what this man WAS NOT something. The ones who claim that they know what he was have to show the proof. As a thinking experiment, just to make my point clear: can you prove that any X adult person is not a criminal? Impossible! You can never prove that! However, the burden of proof is on anyone saying that he IS, so they need to prove that Mr/Mrs. X is indeed such a person, before he is labeled something. This is how every modern justice system works. You have to prove WHAT IS, NOT WAS ISN'T! Anyone claiming that Spiro was Greek has to find a proof. And this is especially important for historians. Otherwise this is just malicious propaganda or pure speculation. Burridheut (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

It appears I was not precise enough. If you present an wp:rs, as you have done with a tertiary encyclopedia above, this isn't a reason to remove the already existent reference. All alternative theories can be part of this article: in this case, Pettifer&Vickers claim a Greek origin, while the Encyclopedia X claims he is of Albanian patriotic background (X claims Y & Z claim W).Alexikoua (talk) 20:09, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Guess it needs more serious arguments than this one [[3]]. I hope this doesn't mean that Vickers should be entirely removed as an wp:rs from wikipedia. Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring

Please wikipedia admins, help in removing editing rights to Users Zoupan and Alexikoua on this article. They edit this Article about Spiro Koleka non-stop, revert my edits, and wipe out entire text sections by entering their version of propaganda-filled text about this family member of mine. Please read details below:

The debate has concentrated into these points:

1. Spiros father name. User Zoupan found an inaccurate source. After I uploaded a picture of the grave of Spiro Koleka http://i.imgur.com/pAJ5FLt.jpg + his marriage certificate (I have it since it is a family document, http://i.imgur.com/xXHKx6o.jpg?1) the issue of the father got solved! So no discussion anymore.

2. Himara is a predominantly Greek region. This is false, I gave official links to the National Census disproving it. Less than 25% are Greek. BUT, besides being incorrect, this is totally irrelevant and unrelated to the article. This article is neither about Himara nor Greece. Therefore the two above-mentioned users were asked to remove this text as irrelevant, but they did not, they only used "Undo" after I did following their failure to provide historic backup for the contested references that they use. (Too easy to click "Undo" for them it seams)

3.They claim (from 4 books authored by the same person - Mr. Petiffer, a so-called expert on Balkan matters.) that Spiro Koleka was born in a ethnic Greek family. But this is entirely incorrect! His gravestone is written in Albanian letters and word-forming (not Greek), in addition there is a page on a peer-reviewed scientific encyclopedia (The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, 1985, http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs) that explains that Spiro was born in a patriotic (meaning native) family. Also two more newspapers articles corroborate the same story. One written by a childhood friend and long time colleague (http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm) and one written by the leaders of the political party he was a member of. They knew him better than someone that does not even care about minute details like this (Mr. petiffer). He also does not have any references in his books on the source of information about Spiro Koleka. I also challenged the two users mentioned above to go to the village of Vuno facebook group and ask the members (1300+, many are elderly people) there of the ethnicity of Spiro Koleka. This is not scientific, but if they really want to know the truth and don't believe that I am a family member (as if I collect marriage certificates from dead people born 107 years ago...), they can corroborate their claims or mine there. No action was taken from them, except "Undo" and commenting like they own wikipedia or something. Perhaps they have donated more than me for wikipedia?!

So, to conclude, my request is simple. Let my family member rest in peace and remove edit access to any propaganda troll that likes to write about Greece, Northern Epirus, Greek legends of the past, or any propaganda piece coming from the Balkans, in this wikipedia article about Spiro Koleka. I want this article to be accurate, truly informational to the public and not bloated with controversial claims, unreliable sources and provocative texts. I did not create this article so that my family member is being called what he is not. Also, I do not like that I have to spend entire hours of my days editing and correcting this article from these guys or their other friends. This is very frustrating. Burridheut (talk) 21:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Greek community-belonging still not refuted. The edit-warring of Burridheut (talk · contribs) is the subject of a thread here.--Zoupan 21:06, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for creating a thread for me right after I created one for you here (ref. timestamp). Burridheut (talk) 21:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

• FYI, the {{Edit fully-protected}} is only for requesting edits to fully protected pages. This article isn't fully protected. Requests regarding user behaviour goes on the noticeboards. I see there is already a noticeboard thread at WP:ANEW. Stickee (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment - though the Greek community-belonging is not refuted, there is sources that say he was Albanian and that also needs to go alongside the fact that his village Vuno is an Orthodox Albanian one (as per Nitisakos and Kallivretakis). All points need to be covered.Resnjari (talk) 21:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The article is about a specific person not the settlement he came from and its ethno-religious composition.Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The sources stating he is Albanian must go in however. They can not be omitted considering that the sources who state Koleka was Greek have already confused Himara town with Himara region, which calls into question their research into Koleka regarding accuracy of where he even was born (in Vuno, not Himara town). Also mentioning that Vuno is an Albanian Orthodox village is fine considering that the sentence in the article reads "Himara, a predominantly Greek region," (with footnote:"Albania: The state of a nation" (PDF). ICG Balkans Report N°111. p. 15. Retrieved 2010-09-02. "The coastal Himara region of Southern Albania has always had a predominantly ethnic Greek population.") for Vuno. It is equating Vuno as a Greek village, when peer reviewed sources(Nitsiakos and Kallivretakis) specifically state that to not be the case. You can not be selective about this or the Himara reference would need to be deleted for the sake of neutrality. Resnjari (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

"equating Vuno as a Greek village": If a region is predominantly populated by a specific group this doesn't mean that this happens in every single village there. The specific part points to the ethnic background of the specific person (Person x is of Greek ancensty, from a region which Greek people are used to live). About Vuno, Nitsiakos is very clear about the traditional pro-Greek sentiment of the village (anti-Zog struggles in 30s together with the Greek speaking Himariotes). We can create an entire section about Vuno, but this article isn't about Vuno. Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

A full citation is needed for the reference that states Koleka's Albanian background.Alexikoua (talk) 22:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

In the article it states he was born in Vuno. Why then the need to have the additional "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" without specifying that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village. What does citing "Himara being a predominantly Greek region" that have to do with Spiro Koleka who is from a Orthodox Albanian village? Wikipedia does state no POV pushing after all. "About Vuno, Nitsiakos is very clear about the traditional pro-Greek sentiment of the village (anti-Zog struggles in 30s together with the Greek speaking Himariotes)". Anti Zog struggles where not just limited to Greeks, but also Albanian Orthodox (speakers), Albanian Catholics and yes Albanian Muslims too and sometimes they cooperated on the matter. Anyway what does that have to do with Spiro Koleka and Zog? Are there connections between the two that so far have not been cited? Otherwise what's Zog's purpose in being brought up here ? In the end Nitiskaos states that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village and so does Kallivretakis and both did fieldwork in the area and are peer reviewed Greek academics. And Koleka was born in Vuno, not Himara town as some of the cited sources erroneously have stated. As for inline citations, Burridheut (talk · contribs) has already uncovered encyclopedic material. Anyway, i want some more input from him before i proceed with changes in the article.Resnjari (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

As I've expected the so-called (peer reviewed and scientific?) wp:rs is a 1985 publication of the regime [[4]]. Unless there is not a decent alternative view backed by rs, there is not even a reason to discuss his supposed non-Greek ethnicity.Alexikoua (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok that fine. However this part of the sentence. Whats its purpose "Himara, a predominantly Greek region". If it stays the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" goes next to Vuno to have balance considering that some of the sources there have mixed up Koleka's place of birth by claiming Himara town as such (thereby him being Greek) for the sake of neutrality. Otherwise if not "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" needs to be deleted so there is no POV pushing. Beyond that most of the rest can stay.Resnjari (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari (talk · contribs). What would you like me to clarify? I will do my best. In the meanwhile I would like to point the same as you. When writing "Himara, a predominantly Greek region", the editors of this text not only show deep ignorance related to Himara, but also show an obvious propagandistic bias. After all, this article is not about Himara, Spiro was not even born there. I also asked these brilliant editors discussing with us to remove additional references that come from the same author (Pettifer). But no, they cannot (!), they put 4 there. I presented three sources that say that Spiro was born in Vuno in a patriotic family. Now a patriot is a person that is distinct in the work dedicated to his fatherland (The work "patria" from where "patriot" comes from is the Latin patria (terra), literally "father's land."). How can someone be a patriot and belong ethnically to another country? They refute an encyclopedia and use as a source "The Young Slav journal" !!! Why not use Tito's own notes, or the diary of Zervas instead? It would be more honest for them to do so. Burridheut (talk) 09:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Repetitive use of offensive terms such as vandals, propagandists in wikipedia reveal an edit-warring nature and can easily lead to blocks. On the other hand unfortunately we have no relibable reference about his supposed non-Greek patriotic origin & spirit. It appears that Pettifer & Vickers mention his Greek ethnicity in more than one works. In "Albania: From Anarchy to a Balkan Identity"p, 189 (obviously not a Greek supported work):

Hoxha followed a policy of what amounted to tokenism, with a few favoured members of the minority taking prominent positions within the system, while the cultural and religious identity of the remainder was gradually eroded. Thus for many years after 1948 Spiro Koleka, a native of the southern coastal town of Himara, was a member of the PLA Committee and Hoxha's trusted henchman on minority issues. He survived the various purges of the Central Committee, remaining a member until 1976. But at the same time the status of the Orthodox Church was attacked, and in the view of most minority members educational provision in the Greek language fell far short of what was needed for cultural equality."

It is clear that Koleka is mentioned under the context of the Greek minority and specifically under the policy of tokenism towards the Greek element. I have also to note that this tokensim policy is also an essential addition for this biography.Alexikoua (talk) 15:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut (talk · contribs) 'The Young Slav journal source was published in 2001, just after the fall of the Milosevic regime. So in a way it cannot bee deleted. If it was from before then one can argue strongly that the source is comprised as Serb scholarship was comprised due to political interference. Until that book on the Koleka family is written, Iliriana Koleka writes something regarding this matter or some post communist book on Vuno or the Himara region has written on the matter, for now it stays mainly as it is, with a slight addition for Vuno village in the article. Rules are rules and its important we abide by them, the same way Greek editors on other articles, like say Northern Epirus need to also abide by them. Alexikoua, as for tokenism, the Pollo family where ethnic Greeks high in Enver's party and they where there due to to that reason. Koleka was there because his family was prominent from the Himara region ad supported the emergence of the communist regime, like many Orthodox Albanians. It was sizable numbers of Albanian Muslims (mainly in the north with a sizable number in the south), who supported Balli Kombetar and almost all Catholic Albanians who where outside the communist regime. Its why there was a lot of Orthodox Albanians high up in the regime and southern Muslim Albanians.Resnjari (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs) also 2 out of 3 sources that mention that Koleka was a born in a patriotic family wrote about him in 2001. What is the excuse to give precedence to the young slav journal over the people that lived, fought and worked with him and published an article of condolence to his family? What is the evidence Spiro was Greek anyway? Any record, official document? Where is it? I am challenging a source here, this is how science works. Either you prove a claim, or it remains unfounded and cannot be used. Burridheut (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

The policy of tokenism, presented by Pet.&Vickers refers to the treatment of the Greek minority. To sum up, Koleka was an exeption and he reached a high rank in the regime, contrary to the rest of the minority. Off course this is of essential value and needs to be added in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 08:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Koleka was no exception at all. I am astonished that you are not able to understand such simple reality. He was not so high in power because of religion. Koleka himself was an atheist, same as Enver was. You forget who forbid religion in Albania for several decades it seems, or perhaps you just don't know about it. As for Pettifer, he fails to provide a historic source for Spiro's Greek belonging. So, I am sorry but we cannot keep such fabricated claim here in wikipedia. You have to provide a document or official record for Spiro being ethnic greek, otherwise I will edit away such unfounded claims. Burridheut (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs), Alexikoua (talk · contribs) if you see who has authored ALL sources claiming that Spiro is ethnic Greek it turns out that it is the same Author: PETTIFER. How can we use the same person as a reference 5 times? See for yourself references [3] [4] [5] [4] in the beginning of the article and reference [11] later on. How can we base history on ONE man who does not even provide sources or documentation for his claims ??? Burridheut (talk) 10:26, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

It's both Vickers & Pettifer. As far I know they claim this in 2 works, the one offers a lot of detail about Koleka in the context of the treatment of the Greek minority. Is there anything wp:rs which states about an alternative Albanian ethnicity (backed by non-authoritarian authorities)?Alexikoua (talk) 11:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

You cannot continue like this. I told you to see the references. It is in 5 of them not 2, please read and check for yourself. All written by Pettifer. If in 2 of them Vickers is co-author that does not change anything. You have failed to provide any evidence so far, you are basing your case on pure speculation that is not based on any records. Show records please. Burridheut (talk) 12:04, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

To sum up: both works written by Vickers&Pettifer are perfectly cited and you still fail to provide a single argument why they are incorrect. Guess the mail you sent them wasn't successfull at all. I'm waiting for argument why these two authors can be considered unreliable and therefore should ignored.Alexikoua (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't plan to comment further on this topic, but since the Greek wikipedians jumped into it, I will add something too. Vickers and Pettifer are wrong on several topics. I.e. they state that Simon Stefani was a Greek whose served as a the last Minister of Defence, while Stefani was not Greek, was from Permet, never served as Minister of Defence, the last Defence Minister was actually Kico Mustaqi who was Greek, etc... Even Elsie makes mistakes, like in this case. Therefore, wikipedia has Wp:be bold and Wp:Ignore all rules.

The tombstone says Spiro Thoma Koleka (1908-2001). Doesn't take a huge knowledge on Communist Albania to understand that Koleka could not be the son of Spiro J. Koleka, who served as a Minister during King Zog era. That is impossible.

As far as for the Greek nationality, funny, there is the interview with his daughter Ilirjana Koleka who says many things. I cited the link somewhere above. As much as the Greeks would like to present all the Orthodox population from Bregu as Greeks, so far they got only Pirro Dhima. Hold him tight! Mondiad (talk) 01:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Look guys, yes there are multiple issues with Vickers and Pettifer, as for Elsie you would have to point it out how. Nonetheless, they have written in peer reviewed publications and its passes Wikipeida's test for them being within the article. What i would say to the other Albanian editors here is to find post communist (from 1992 onwards) sources that discuss Vuno (and mention Koleka) or books and so on that discuss Koelka and say he was Albanian. Then that can be added in addition to the Vickers and Pettifer stuff. My only issue with the article at this point in time is that this bit either gets deleted"Himara, a predominantly Greek region" because it comes after the Vuno bit thereby implying that Vuno is inhabited by Greeks (when peer reviewed literature does not say this) especially when some of the sources have mixed Himara town with Himara region regarding Koleka's birthplace which was Vuno. If it stays however, the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" for Vuno needs to be added so neutrality is established. Resnjari (talk) 03:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

• G97 T.J. Winnifrith (2003), Badlands-Borderland: A History of Southern Albania/Northern Epirus, ISBN 0-7156-3201-9, p. 138. Quote: "Under King Zog, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept mentally sick individuals as inmates." and "On the other hand under Hoxha there were draconian measures to keep Greek-speakers loyal to Albania. Albanian rather than Greek history was taught in schools."; again, don't put your personal views on the retrospect of Vuno, Himara and Northern Epirus. You have still not presented evidence that Vuno was "only Albanian" before Zogu.--Zoupan 03:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, don't inflame the situation. Orthodox Albanians during the late Ottoman period were confused about their identity (see: Vassilis Nitsiakos. On the border. 2010. p. 153. “The influence of Hellenism on the Albanian Orthodox was such that, when the Albanian national idea developed, in the three last decades of the 19th century, they were greatly confused regarding their national identity.”). Greek schools were opened during that time and people who where Orthodox and spoke Albanian where exposed to hellenisation and it is not a "personal view". Before Zog (pre 1923/1924), Vuno was still recognised as being a Orthodox and Albanian speaking village. Again Nitsiakos (page 98): "It is also striking that the Albanian-speaking villages of Himare kept their Greek schools open until 1920 and that, during the Greek minority’s struggle for Greek schools (1934-36), the villages themselves asked for Greek schools, but the Albanian government of the time rejected their demand (Dedes 1976:252)." Yes you will say that Greek schools where wanted by these people, however, the whole population did not share in such pro-Greek sentiments. It is well documented that Spiro Jorgo (also Gogo, as Gogo is a Albanian diminutive of Jorgo and both forms exist for him in Albanian documents) Koleka of Vuno (not the communist politician of the same name discussed in the article) was a major leader from the Himara region that opposed its annexation to another state, he participated in the Vlora War against the Italians and also organised local Himariots (in a regional sense) who supported Albania to fight in the Vlora War. He also was one of the main leaders that participated at the Lushjna Conference which was important for the reestablishment of the Albanian state after World War One. He was not forced to be Albanian, nor other from the Himara region who supported the Albanian cause as the Albanian state was consolidated only after the Lushnja congress. So their Albanian identity was not "forced". It was for some, but not for all. Like Nitsiakos states, Orthodox Albanians were confused about their identity and importantly not all where supporters of a Greek identity or future.

For more see journal article on Spiro Jorgo Koleka: Meta, Beqir. "Ballafaqimi shqiptaro-grek për Himarën (1920-1924)[Greek-Albanian confrontation in Himara (1920-1924)]." Studime Historike 1-2 (2008): 43:

Pas mbarimit të Luftës I Botërore lëvizja atdhetare shqiptare në Himarë u rigjallërua. Një vend të veçantë luajti Spiro Gogo Koleka, i cili ndihmoi për mbledhjen e Kongresit të Lushnjës dhe zbatimin e vendimeve të tij. Ai bashkë me patriotë të tjerë ishte nënshkruesi i mjaft dokumenteve dërguar përfaqësuesve të Fuqive të Mëdha në Konferencën e Paqes, në të cilat kundërshtohej çdo përpjekje për aneksimin e Vlorës dhe Himarës1. Në maj të vitit 1920 Spiro G. Koleka u caktua anëtar i qeverisë kombëtare. Ai më vonë u bë njëri nga organizatorët e Luftës së Vlorës kundër italianëve, në të cilën morën pjesë edhe himarjotë të tjerë.

Translation: After the end of World War One, the Albanian patriotic movement in Himarë was revived. A special place Spiro Gogo Koleka played, who assisted at the gathering of the Congress of Lushnja and implementation of its decisions. He and other patriots were signatory to many documents sent to the representatives of the Great Powers during the Peace Conference, that opposed any attempt to annex Vlora and Himarë. In May 1920 Spiro G. Koleka was appointed member of the national government. He later became one of the organizers of the Vlora War against the Italians, where other Himariots participated.

Resnjari (talk) 04:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs) thank you for shedding more light into the matter. You are knowledgeable on the topic and it is a pleasure to exchange messages with you. The situation is pretty clear to everyone, there is a political/ethnic agenda that these two users are trying to force through. Why 5 references from the same person (Pettifer) ?! Why no documents to back up those references? I wrote Pettifer, but never got an answer. It is true that it is summer holiday season now and he maybe has not read my email, but it can happen that he never responds me. What does that mean? Does that mean that his opinion gets to stay and my challenge towards the sources that he has used is nulled? Absolutely not! If you claim someone is from a Greek family, you need to provide proof for this. Who was the greek in Spiro's family? Was it the father, was it the mother? Where is this information coming from? How come these guys (or ladies) are so sure of themselves that they do not consider this information to be inaccurate? Saying "Vuno, near Himara" is the same as saying "Europe, part of planet Earth". Not that this is incorrect, but it is irrelevant when speaking about Spiro Koleka. Let Zoupan and Alexikoua address their claims about Himara in the Himara article, not in the article about Spiro Koleka. Otherwise this is just a provocation from this two editors.

Now coming to a recent publication about Spiro Koleka, I posted you one from Anastas Kondo (Read here: http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and here: http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm), published in 2001 (so, after 1992 since you wanted a post-communist source). Perhaps this author is not known to all, but he was a very distinct intellectual in Albania and has left behind a wealth of writings in many fields of life. A short summary about him so you understand why he is an excellent source of information. Anastas Kondo was born in the city of Kucova, November 28, 1937. After completing Tirana Polytechnic continued his studies in St. Petersburg, Russia, where he graduated as a paleontology engineer. He worked at the Institute of Geological Studies in Kucova oil, then in Fier. He is known as a writer, journalist and writer of a number of films, among which mention "overseas mission", "Great Winter", "when it was a day", "Partizan small Velo", etc. He has also been known for his literary creativity where some of the works are well appreciated by national awards. Among the volumes of stories mentioning "The Bridge", "When does the dying man", "The gates of the sun", "Why have killed Odyssey", "Kio", "People and stones", "when it was a day" etc. Writer, journalist and screenwriter of some famous films, Anastas Kondo is the author of several textbooks and scientific studies, which laid the foundation of the science of Micropaleontology in Albania. For several years he worked in leading sectors of literature, culture and education. Also he worked as deputy minister of education and culture, secretary of the Union of Writers and Artists, Chairman of the Committee of Culture and Arts etc. This guy worked closely with Spiro and knew him far too well. The article that he wrote upon Spiro's death describing Spiro's life achievements is much more relevant than some line written by Pettifer that knows nothing about Spiro Koleka or Vuno to this very day. I understand that Pettifer has some fans around here, but Anastas Kondo was a man of a higher caliber. It is like comparing Walter White (from BB) with Niels Bohr. One just can't. Burridheut (talk) 19:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I try my best. :) The Kondo article is ok, though i want to know what the Greek editors will say (and it has to be based on actual Wikipedia policy, not made up policy was done in the Souliots article). Kondo does identify this Spiro Koleka(p2) as being a relative of the older Spiro Koleka. The stuff on Koleka being "Greek" though will stay because it is in peer reviewed literature (even though there are multiple issues with it). We need Albanian sources (post 1992) and passes the Wikipedia guidelines (that how it is). Do you know of any books written on Vuno or Koleka for that matter after 1992? I can put a request for my university library (through the document delivery service) to look for them internationally (Tirana University library does not participate in this in case your wondering as i have tried before. German University libraries and the Library of Congress are great when it comes to Balkan books). It will take a few months though for me to get and likewise then to return to this matter. As for adding in that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village i think its ok, since some of the sources saying Koleka was Greek have mixed up the place of his birth and drawn conclusions from that mix up. If not then the predominantly Greek Himara bit gets deleted as it has no purpose to the article, so neutrality is kept. Burridheut (talk · contribs) if you thought this article had issues, you should have a look at the Vuno article. There sources have been manipulated to assert that Vuno is a Greek village and will need fixing after this article. After the matter is resolved here, i hope that you will be able to assist me in doing a overhaul of that article. If you have time, would you be able to do a spell and grammar check of a article sq:Parga on Albanian Wikipedia (through using the Redakto button and not the Redakto tekstin burimor button which makes it complicated. Send me a message on my Wikipedia shqip page regarding it) ? Resnjari (talk) 01:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I will find some time to help with the other articles Resnjari. I know a lot about Vuno since it is the village of my family. Vuno is an Albanian Orthodox village, no discussion about that. No ethnic Greeks live there though and that is easy to disprove. "The elders identify themselves as Northern Epirotes" ref. Basilēs G. Nitsiakos (2010) is a fantasy. The elders are on the facebook group of Vuno today, they can be asked to clarify this. This is ridiculous. Burridheut (talk) 09:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Firstly,Spiro Koleka's father was Thoma Koleka. Secondly,Vickers + Pettifer is not a reliable source.Why?Because it says :"Many remained in high Party positions, such as the last communist Defence Minister Simon Stefani."The last communist Defence Minister was Kiço Mustaqi (9 July 1990 – 12 May 1991) who was succeded by Ndriçim Karakaçi.This reference can't be used and needs to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 18:29, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Regarding Nitsiakos there is no issue. He is an sociologist and a very good one. Its just how his content has been selectively used that is the issue. The bit in the Vuno article that says "The elders identify themselves as Northern Epirotes" is selective. I know which editor wrote that (for more see the Vuno History page of edits and that editor has also participated in this discussion) and for the moment will give him the benefit of doubt and say that he did that edit in good faith while omitting a large part of Nitsiakos who states every clearly that such identifications in Vuno with "Northern Epirote" identity are done either for pension/work purposes and also because the person talking to them (Nitsiakos) is Greek and they want to come off as being friendly to such people. Nitsiakos says that they are ambiguous when they talk about their identity with him and by going about it this way they avoid discussing their true identity with him. For more read page 466 at https://books.google.com.au/books?id=H-7toRTGrFkC&pg=PA466&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false As for future assistance, thank you Burridheut (talk · contribs) i appreciate it. Rolandi+ (talk · contribs) good stuff. To all the other Albanian editors too, if you know(or are aware) of good sources(preferably post 1992 is best) on Vuno or Spiro Koleka, but don't have access to them yourselves do place the title, author (and publishing house would be good too) in here so i can get put requests to get them. This issue needs revisiting. As much scholarly sources that can be gathered would be good before changes can be made about the identity issue. All the best guys !Resnjari (talk) 04:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

So if someone doesn't agree he can talk now as the Vickers + Pettifer reference will be deleted soon.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi+... According to which concensus? I don't see you as an arbitrator. --Zoupan 15:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan ...Firslty read the discussion and then come and talk to me.As I said earlier,that source isn't reliable.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Even if you personally think a source is not reliable, you do not delete it. You can, however, raise the question at WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard to get the verdict of the community. --T*U (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari:@Zoupan:As I said Vickers + Pettifer reference says :"Many remained in high Party positions, such as the last communist Defence Minister Simon Stefani."The last communist Defence Minister was Kiço Mustaqi (9 July 1990 – 12 May 1991) so this reference isn't reliable.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

It depends on the fall of communism in Albania; Revolutions of 1989; new political parties were legalised on 11 December 1990; first multi-party elections on 31 March 1991. As per this, he may very well be regarded the last communist DM (as Vickers clearly does), and Mustaqi the first democratic.--Zoupan 16:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan: Before Mustaqi the DM was Prokop Murra (from 1982-1990).It is clear that Vickers+Pettifer source is unreliable and needs to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 05:46, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

They are wrong on this. Simon Stefani was never Minister of Defence. In no time. And it happens that the last communist Minister of Defence was indeed of Greek descend, but his name is Kiço Mustaqi and he is from Saranda. Of course they didn't do it on purpose but is a clear error. No way to spin it around. I will ping user @Ismail: if you want to clarify, he is the main contributor and leader of most of the articles on Communist Albania. And he is not Albanian btw. And there are many many sources on Kico Mustaqi, or Albanian Ministers of Defence.Mondiad (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Mustaqi was made Minister of Defense and a full member of the Albanian Politburo in the course of 1990, when fundamental economic and social changes were underway in the country and when perceived hardliners like Rita Marko were removed from that same body, so it does make sense to view him as more of a "democratic" politician than a "communist" one in this period insofar as the latter were transitioning to the former. Simon Stefani was Interior Minister until that same year; he was removed as one of the aforementioned hardliners and replaced with Hekuran Isai. --Ismail (talk) 21:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to all who are discussing and providing additional backup links and references about Spiro Koleka and Vuno. The arguments presented so far by Resnjari, Rolandi, Mondiad are very convincing with regards to the inaccuracy of the material coming from the sources provided by Zoupan/Alexikoua. I wonder how is it possible that these two people hold so much influence here in wikipedia. How come they can undo, edit, remove my text but their text is untouchable. Can someone explain this to me? Am I doing something wrong when I challenge a source and show its inconsistencies? How come that when I give them certain arguments that they cannot dismiss they don't respond but dodge the discussion in different directions. Not a single comment about Anastas Kondo from them. It is impossible to convince someone who does not read your comments! But it is even more impossible to convince someone who even when presented with proofs prefers to stick to his/her beliefs! That is why I am convinced that this is Greek propaganda, so don't expect any consensus from them. Burridheut (talk) 18:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Regarding influence, yes i have had those thoughts too. I have been threatened with a outright ban within after i challenged the revert of my edits on the Chams Albanian page (in the end most went through except one due to "original research purposes"), had my cognitive abilities questioned (on the article with a POV pushing name Muslim Greeks), had accusations of POV always leveled against me (and that's only when i have proposed edits in the talk page using peer reviewed material !) and so on. Its just the lot of the Albanian i guess. I'll just say this, if this goes to some arbitration thing(and notify me), i can argue the case for Vuno and the identity issues strongly. Regarding Communist members of Enver's government and their positions, you other Albanian editors are going to have to do that. I don't know the profiles too in depth to do that. Also look at the Wikipedia policy regarding Identifying reliable sources > Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources so we do this from a very strong position. All the best guys !Resnjari (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid that so far there are not decent arguments presented to prove that Vicker&Pettifer are unreliable in this case. In general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste. By the way, the specific authors have been regared as clearly pro-Albanian, for example in the case of Cham Albanians.Alexikoua (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It not about whether the authors are pro-Albanian. Its whether their content is based on facts (accuracy etc) or sloppy scholarship. There is no "ethnic crusade" here as you claim and that is your interpretation. Actually Albanian editors are going by Wikipedia policy in trying to identify the reliability of the source/s. You know very well Alexikoua from a previous exchange regarding sources on the Çarcovë talk page that one Dimitropoulos used data that double counted Greek villages (and also had wrong geographical location data) which was based on documents that was used by the Greek government (hence also calling into question their data. You did say you would email the Greek government. What was their reply regarding those errors as you never replied to me back regarding the issue ?) and so on. The discussion had here is more than valid. Be constructive about it before engaging in name calling. As such Spiro Koleka is not alive to speak for himself. There are serious errors that have been detected and some editors feel that the content overall may be an issue. Resnjari (talk) 02:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Be constructive about it before engaging in name calling. Before you advise Alexikoua perhaps you should consider things like the heading of this thread: "Edit warring and propaganda editors/vandals". That heading was chosen by one of the other editors. You should also consider the shower of insults directed toward Zoupan and Alexikoua by at least one of the other editors. Advising Alexikoua in isolation of the environment created by others looks a bit unbalanced. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 03:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have been repeatedly accused of POV and fringe theories (even though in end my edits have gone through as my sources are very credible. My cognitive faculties (highly offensive) have even been under scrutiny by Greek editors. So please spare me Dr Dk. I have had more than enough of that, and yet i turn the other cheek because i understand that some know no better. After the campaign launched against Rolandi by some editors whose own record was not clean, and considering that Alexikoua a editor with privileges has on occasion even made up policy (10% threshold- with no sanction i might add) to prevent peer reviewed material going into ]the Souliotes article (in the end it did go in as i am becoming very familiar with Wikipedia policy and made the case very strongly!), i will advise that. I have defused situations before and have called out sources Albanian, Greek or otherwise when they are at issue. You said once that you have respect for me, or was that momentary because it was when all were perusing Rolandi and some thought that i too would engage in that quest instead of trying to defuse the situation. Stick to the sources as i have repeatedly said to Greek editors and also to Albanian editors and importantly stick to Wikipedia policy.Resnjari (talk) 03:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's focus here Resnari. My comment was not about accusations against you. My comment was about your advice to Alexikoua regarding his latest comment. Alexikoua's reply was not directed toward you. Alexikoua replied to another editor and you chose to advise him regarding his comments while at the same time ignoring the blatant incivility of the other editor. You may have been accused unjustifiably in the past but that is irrelevant to a situation such as this which does not involve you. When you give advice to other editors regarding their civility you should consider the behaviour of all parties involved. Otherwise your advice will be not be perceived as impartial. Don't let your bad experiences in the past cloud your judgement in the present, especially in situations not involving you directly. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua stated that "in general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste." That is true in one way but it can also be perceived in another. And that is that Albanian editors here are somehow being selective regarding the sources as to what suits them best. That is not the case as they are engaging is discussion now in testing the reliability of the source/s regarding Spiro Koleka and serious issues have come up. If Pettifer and others have been loose with the facts or content regarding Koleka, that needs to be discussed. The same goes for other sources. I hold to that principle. That's all. Like said before, Spiro Koleka cannot speak from the grave and others have done the speaking for him through written text that has asserted itself as authoritative peer reviewed sources. One must make sure if issues have come up. Like i said its the sources that should guide us and the policy contained on Wikipedia. No accusations about "national taste" etc and the discussion should be undertaken in good faith. Otherwise it further inflames the situation. You remember how things where going with the matter about Rolandi. When i intervened those issues came to a halt and he has improved quite a lot in a short time. Discussion, not accusation. All done in good faith. That's my rationale.Resnjari (talk) 04:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua stated that "in general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste." I can't speak for Alexikoua, but I don't think he included you when he said that. If he did, it would be wrong. I just think you should have the confidence not to include yourself in such criticism and when you provide advice you should give it to all the parties involved. That's when your advice is perceived as impartial. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand that, but its repetitive now as there have been other instances on other pages. So in effect, forgive me but to me its starting to appear as repetitive behavior. And i have given advice to other editors (if you recall the whole matter regarding Rolandi). My point to all editors is this, Wikipedia policy has guidelines for identifying a reliable source, we should follow that. If editors have brought up issues with the sources, that should be discussed according to policy. All should stick to that. No name calling, also to be cautious about making accusations of POV especially if an edit has not been made in the article, and matters are under discussion in the talk page.Resnjari (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with you and you know that I respect you as an editor. What I am trying to say is that since you are a great editor with understanding of the policies perhaps you can use your influence to help everyone involved tone down the rhetoric by advising everyone to just concentrate on the facts and not their perceived opponents. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:01, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have suggested a compromise to this issue. Basically that this bit "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region" stays and an additional Orthodox Albanian gets added alongside the "village of Vuno" or if not the Himara bit gets deleted (so neutrality is kept). Why because the sources stating Koleka was Greek have mixed up his place of birth (which is Vuno) and said he was from Himara town which is not the case (and due to also the whole area being called Himara region). In doing so they have drawn the conclusion that Koleka was Greek on account that he is from Himara town. Vuno has been identified as an Orthodox Albanian village by Greek academics who have done fieldwork in the area (Kallivretakis and Nitsiakos). This is where the issue is for many Albanian editors. For me the bits by Petiffer though problematic, can stay, if the Kondo article is added to point out that there are additional points of view regarding the matter. It is an obituary article in an newspaper by a noted Albanian academic Anastas Kondo from Vuno. This would end the matter.Resnjari (talk) 07:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I have no opinion in this matter but I appreciate your great and civil effort. Take care. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

In general authors are not considered incorrect or correct according to our national taste,but making Simon Stefani the last communist Defence Minister means that a reference isn't reliable and needs to be deleted!Rolandi+ (talk) 07:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with your statement regarding national taste. Thank you Rolandi. As far as the source I will not get involved in this since I don't have the time at present. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 07:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly no one from the Greek editors/commentators here seems to find the time to analyse the facts, discuss constructively and find agreement. However, finding time to disagree and revert my edits has never been a problem. To anyone that wants to help with this issue please see the thread I have created in the dispute resolution board: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Spiro_Koleka Burridheut (talk) 14:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

One thing you have to practice is WP:AGF. When I say I have no time then I have no time to pursue this. I also have no interest in the subject. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I want to assume good faith. I just cannot do it when I tell you all that I am family with Spiro. I provided personal documents of the deceased and you guys still tell me what ethnicity my family has. Do you really think that if we were Greek I would find it out from wikipedia? Also, how about these Greek editors assuming some good faith for once? How about they accept that since I created the article (back in 2012) and over 95% of the text in the article is mine, I know the story of this man better that a so called balkan expert? Yeah, lets see some good faith please. Burridheut (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Also his other name needs to be deleted.Thoma Koleka was his father.Spiro Thoma Koleka was used in official documents ,it wasn't his other name.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

That can stay so that people do not mix him with the other Spiro Koleka. They were both ministers, engineers, important men so it is easy to mix them if one does not have a look at the years they lived and worked. Burridheut (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There's another source > Gregorič, Nataša. "Contested Spaces and Negotiated Identities in Dhermi/Drimades of Himare/Himara area, Southern Albania " (PDF). University of Nova Gorica. 2008., who on page 151 by citing Pettifer has mixed up the older Spiro Jorgo Koleka with the Spiro Koleka of this article by combining them as the same person ! Anyway the proposed edits i said at this moment is the best solution to the matter. It will be tricky at this point in time to remove Pettifer as he does meet Wikipedia guidelines. To fully remove him we will need Albanian sources on Vuno. Burridheut (talk · contribs), how much time before that book by the Koleka's on their family is published (this source would basically to the matter to rest with no doubts) ? Also ask around the Vuno diaspora from your cousins and so on about who has published books on Vuno, or prominent figures from Vuno in recent times (which probably would have something on Koleka (i can get these, but i need titles and authors). Even the Albanian encyclopedia (if you have access to it) would be good too (post 1992 preferably). These would be the best sources in having Pettifer removed and meeting Wikipedia guidelines in going about it at a latter date.Resnjari (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari (talk · contribs), Pettifer can write in his books that Koleka was an astronaut if he wants. Do I have to find a source that says the opposite? Absolutely not. He that claims what Spiro is has to prove it, show some records. Pettifer fails to do so, that is why he is not a reliable source in this case. I am not challenging the whole body of work this man has built over the years, but for Spiro he provides no records where he bases his claims. That is why I challenge this author's writings about Spiro Koleka. I hope you follow my logic here. Burridheut (talk) 14:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

To other editors and Burridheut (talk · contribs). I restructured the sentence regarding sources and origins. Its the best i could do in light of the situation and to reach a compromise on the matter. Regarding the Pettifer material and others they do have the factual inaccuracy issues regarding Koleka's birthplace and have drawn conclusion from that regarding his origins. However because they are in a peer reviewed source/s they can stay in the article if it remains the way it has been written alongside the Anastas Kondo obituary newspaper article. Like this all positions are covered and neutrality is kept. I hope all editors involved will take this into consideration. To Burridheut, i came across a recently published book on the other Spiro Koleka (and have placed an order for it see article: http://www.shekulli.com.al/p.php?id=229279) which Anastas Kondo identifies as this Spiro's relative. There will be some information on the wider family as with other similar books. It will take a few months for me to get. If you can get a copy for yourself earlier and check it, it would be great.Resnjari (talk) 05:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari (talk · contribs), thanks for restructuring the article. It is better formulated now, despite the inaccuracies of Pettifer. Is it possible to also reduce the number of references? What I mean is that there is no need to quote the same author 4 times, from 4 different publications made by him (Pettifer). Regarding your comment about the two Spiros, yes they are related, but they are not close. Their last common ancestor has lived in 1720 (from the records). So although they belong to the same family tree, they are very far away for all practical purposes. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita.This is what Edi Rama has said.[5] This means that Spiro Koleka's family isn't of "Greek" origin,but of Mirditor (Albanian) origin.Rolandi+ (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Edi Rama is correct about the origin. The Koleka family comes from the north of Albania, as do many other well known families in the region. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Most people in Vuno have kept memories of their ancestors place of origin. According to tradition they state that their ancestors came from northern Albania and some were soldiers in Skanderbeg's army. They found refuge in the area and settled there after the Turkish conquest. Rama is referring to that. Considering that a lot of Arberesh in Italy came from southern Albania (and were soldiers) is is very plausible that not all made the journey across to Italy and some relocated. Anyway that's dealing with Vuno in general. The stuff about Koleka is about the here and now. The Greek stuff can be removed if we have some kind if biography or book written about Koleka, their family etc. For now, the way its written in the article can stay as it covers both sides. Its sad that Pettifer did not bother to do more in depth research, but that's how it stands now.Resnjari (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I will send him another email Resnjari. And if he will not respond this will damage his credibility. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The most reliable source here isn't Pettifer,Vickers etc but Edi Rama who is a member of Koleka family.His mother was the sister of Spiro Koleka and he says clearly that their origin is from Mirdita.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:44, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rolandi, Aneta is not Spiros sister (or daughter), that has been clarified by me previously. They are quite close though. Burridheut (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I know where your coming from Rolandi, yet it would be difficult because other editors would say that Spiro Koleka is not mentioned by Rama and he was making a generalised statement about his family. For the moment the way i wrote it makes the issue neutral. We need to accumulate more sources before removing Pettifer completely (as inaccuracies have been identified in Pettifer's work such as Koleka's place of birth), due to Wikipedia guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 08:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Rama clearly says that his mother's family is of Mirditor origin.His mother was Spiro Koleka's relative.It means that Rama is talking about Spiro Koleka's origin.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, not sister (or daughter), but close family. So what Edi Rama says is correct. Burridheut (talk) 09:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You can also see this ( more detailed interview):[6].Here Koleka family is clearly mentioned. Rolandi+ (talk) 09:24, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

As long as a reliable source claiming Koleka was ethnic Albanian (refuting Greek) is not presented, the article should not be altered. Please present the claim of Mirditë origin here.--Zoupan 22:04, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The reason why in Albanian sources no one mentions that Koleka is Albanian is because it is a presumably already known thing and no one has felt the need to say otherwise until now. I mean who in Albania reads Pettifer or has access to his works amongst wider society. Same like say Rugova, or Hoxha and so on. He was not considered a other, or as a Greek. But yes, it will be needed to be stated from a peer reviewed source (book journal article etc). I have said this and the issue can be revisited once one is located. Also Zoupan, if the sentence "near Himara, a predominantly Greek region" remains, the Orthodox Albanian bit regarding Vuno will be added and needs to remain as to have neutrality. The sources stating that Koleka was Greek have also stated that he was born in Himara town which is factually incorrect. Otherwise the Albanian Orthodox but can be deleted if the Himara bit goes as well. It is so there is no bias and POV pushing.Resnjari (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Stop playing games here.Vickers Pettifer references need to be deleted .As Zoupan said we need only reliable sources.The family members say that the family is of Mirditor origin that means he was Albanian.No one believe a source full of inaccuracies.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, yes Pettifer has inaccuracies and it has been strongly established. The issue is here is with what peer reviewed Albanian sources are we going to replace it with to make it beyond doubt? Find them guys and then it can be done (This issue can be revisted in a few months time once those sources are found by editors in here). Who here has access to the Albanian encyclopedia (post 1992) or books on Vuno (name them so i can get them). Otherwise as per guidelines it cannot be removed at the moment. The Kondo article, though applicable only gives one view. A peer reviewed Albanian source/s would end the matter and then it can be done. Guys you have to look at this through the lens of Wikipedia policy and guidelines and that's how this issue can be dealt with.Resnjari (talk) 13:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis

This is not OK.--Zoupan 22:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

That part was in the article from long ago. Not done by Albanian editors, but by Greeks ones. I combined it into the above, but since you deemed it not ok, that's fine too.Resnjari (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

That part, where an "Albanian theory" (which in fact is a quote on his "patriotic" family background) precedes the established Greek one? No, that is not from the article long ago. Also, I thought "Please don't touch the article again" was done with. --Zoupan 17:18, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed this excuse is too problematic to be considered a real argument. The fact that someone speaks under a national agenda, propagading that references written only in his native language should be used in this article, sounds at least childish, if not clearly against the objectives of this project.Alexikoua (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

National agenda!!! Hahahahaha! Who are the two greeks writing gossip on an Albanian politicians wikipedia article? Who are the ones calling a city in another country as Greek? Who are the ones deleting information here as they please. Who are the ones who use unreliable hand-picked sources? Get yourselves a mirror gentlemen and look yourselves. Burridheut (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, you do not own the article nor are the sources who state he was Greek in origin the right sources. They have been proven to have inaccuracies (Please, do refute that Koleka was born in Vuno and prove beyond doubt that he was born in Himara town. I am very interested). They have claimed that Koleka was born in Himara town. The Albanian claim as you put it at least has his birthplace correct. As the article stands now, its ok. Until Albanian editors later locate some Albanian sources that are peer reviewed and identify Koleka's birthplace as Vuno and say he is Albanian that the Pettifer stuff can be taken to third party arbitration to have the sources looked and a decision can be made then. Until then its fine, if it stays the way it is, due to neutrality reasons. As for Alexikoua, once again i urge you to refrain from name calling and inflaming the situation, as they also go agianst Wikipedia policy and the spirit of the editing project. Calling me "childish", accusing me of having a "national agenda" and "propagading that references written only in his native language" does not in any way help the situation. Whatever your personal views are of me, my native language or Albanians in general (and this is becoming repetitive now, like Athenean used to do, keep them to yourself and desist from offending people. It is the content that is at issue not the person. You should know better considering you are an editor with "privileges") it needs to cease. The sources saying Koleka was Greek also say he is from Himara town. They have clearly made the assumption of ethnic identity based on them getting the place of birth wrong. Not sure if you have taken that into consideration, unless you can prove that Koleka was born in Himara town and not Vuno village, that then the sources should not be scrutinised further ? As for Albanian editors, this issue can be revisited in later times, just find peer reviewed material on the subject. Stop making a big issue out of something trivial.Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Koleka was born in Vuno.This is what the references says (except of these sources here).Elsie,the most prominent albanologist says Koleka was born in Himara.The family says the same thing.I don't know why do you want to play games.The sources that say Koleka was greek have questionable reliability so according to Wikipedia's rules they need to be deleted.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Stop making a big issue out of something trivial, you said it yourself. Failing (not wanting) to see Vuno as a part of Himara town/district/region/area (based on some "logic" of what "town" actually means, when the term is obviously indefinite, only to suit your POV), or interpreting history through contemporary circumstances is exactly that type of issue-making. It is still clear that there are no real arguments against. @Rolandi+: you have had problems with identifying reliable sources and understanding rules; with such comments you are not helping the discussion.--Zoupan 09:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan:My past doesn't change the rules of Wikipedia so don't try playing games.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:51, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, when one looks at map, Vuno is indicated as a separate settlement (you can call it a village or a town, that part does not matter). Yet like i said it it indicated as a separate settlement from Himara town. In some of the sources provided, they do say Himara town is his birthplace, do they not ? Himara is used by some to name the region. They have confused his birthplace and so on. Likei said this issue can be revisited in later months and years when peer received sources on the matter become published. It would need to have both Koleka's birthplace at the very least correct (unlike those based on the Pettifer source) and other details about his life also) The Communist era is only now become topic examined in Albanian society due to its past trauma. When those sources come to the fore, the best way to go about it would be that tha this goes to third party arbitration, Greek editors make their case, Albanian editors will make their case and the issue can very easily be resolved. Anyway, i am fine the way it is at the moment as long as no changes are done to that part of the article.Resnjari (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Resn. it appears you invent new rules and urge your co-nationals (you make this distinction contiuously) to look for "references written in Albanian" in order to finally get rid of Vickers&Pettifer. Can you explain where it's written that 1. only Albanian users should edit this article, 2. why only Albanian references should be used here? I'm afraid that it's you the one that inflames this discussion with such kind of national inspired approach.

On the other hand I suggest that "all" editors should follow wp:HISTRS in order to add new material. Also per HISTRS, there is no need to be only Albanian written material. For example V&P write in English, but even if it's in Greek, Serb or Japanese, it's also welcomed.Alexikoua (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

"it appears you invent new rules and urge your co-nationals". LOL ! You seem to forget that little episode of the 10% threshold matter you made up in an attempt to prevent peer reviewed material going into the Souliots article. I have said and will strongly stand by my comments, serious errors have been detected in Pettifer's work(and also those cited who have based their references upon him) that cannot be ignored (Gregoric even mixed up which Koleka she was writing about in her thesis). The issue is that Albanian editors need to find peer reviewed sources (Albanian or other) that have correct details about Koleka's life, by for one getting his birthplace correct. Like i said the dead cannot speak for themselves and one needs to be cautious about such matters.

"1. only Albanian users should edit this article, 2. why only Albanian references should be used here?" What are you on about. I have never ever said that this article is the preserve of Albanian editors or that they are the only ones who can edit it. Again don't accuse me. You are doing this repeatedly now Alexikoua on may pages. What i have said to them is to locate Albanian sources. I live in Melbourne and Albanian books are very hard to come by here, due to the very small Albanian community who are Tosks and hail mainly from the Prespa/Bitola region of Macedonia). My university has a sizable Greek section in the library because until a few years ago they used to have the biggest Greek programme amongst Melbourne Universities before it shrank due to some Greek academics having a financial dispute with a Melbourne Greek law firm in Oakleigh who funded them). So i can get my hands on Greek material, but not Albanian ones. Also there are Albanians like my self who can read Greek (i also can read Serbian and understand it. I can speak, read and write Macedonian very fluently and thus by extension Bulgarian too) so they can get across Greek material but how many of you Greek editors can read, speak (and i am not referring to the Arvanite ones who have barely any knowledge to that effect) or write in Albanian ? Seriously how many of you have that knowledge of Albanian so you can go and chase up Albanian sources and assist in the matter? So yes of course i am going to ask Albanian editors to do so, because they may be in Albania (or Kosovo) from where they are doing their edits and may have access to that type of material. Also why are Albanian sources important ? Because, Koleka was from Albania. For example if his family decides to write a biography of him for example, that source would take precedence over all others would it not considering that they knew him best ? Burridheut is in a unique position. During the summer, when everyone heads home to visit the village, he is more than likely to run into other Koleka's like himself and he can bring the issue up. In Albania, it is just assumed Spiro was Albanian and there has been no need to go into his identity because Koleka is from Vuno and Vuno is inhabited by Orthodox Albanians. Burridheut can make people aware of the Pettifer stuff in a way that no one here can. Its why i am a little bit taken aback, when the issue and solution is quite simple.Resnjari (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I can only assume that you change the topic to the Souliotes because you are out of arguments in this article. By the way, I can't understand why you still pretent that I've invented the 10% threshold ("You seem to forget that little episode of the 10% threshold matter"?), since it's clearly stated in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names): Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language... I'm afraid this can be easily considered disruptive since you insists and recycle this in several irrelevant talkpages such as this one. As Dr.K. instructed you, you are making clear distinctions between co-ethnics & rest of the editors.Alexikoua (talk) 07:11, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL ! Yes that all good just for one important matter. The wikiedpia naming conventions are about geographical places not about a people, you know human beings. You, a editor with privileges applied a Wikipedia policy about geographical naming conventions to a people (trying to prevent the Albanian name of the Souliots going in). Wow talk about manipulation of a policy. It all on the Souliots talk page and yes from time to time i will bring it up when you resort to similar tactics like that. Just in case anyone missed it, Albanians are human beings, not a geographical eneity of some type. Best to avoid fringe theories Alexikoua or personal views about people. Its getting repetitive now. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Now about this topic, I have to agree with Zoupan in the case of wp:SYNTH: We know that Koleka was born in Vuno, a village located a few kms from Himara, which is predominantly Albanian-speaking -> we concluded that he is de-facto of Albanian ancestry? The most decent claim about a Albanian ancestry so far is based on this ground. However, that's nothing more than synth: Not everyone born in settlement X, who is predominantly Y-speaking, is necessary Y-speaking too, especially when we have plenty of material which specifically points to something else. For example I would find it too childish to claim that specific personalities from Dhermi & Pallasa (both predominantly Greek-speaking villages in Himara) are de-facto ethnic Greeks (lets say Petro Marko, Aleks Çaçi).Alexikoua (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

This not a matter of wp:SYNTH. Within those sources that state Koleka is Greek, they also say he was born in Himara town. An important distinction from Vuno village. Thus already it is an inaccuracy. That is beyond doubt due to geographical reasons and the authors should be able to notice that by looking at a map. Like i said the onus is on Greek editors to prove that Koleka is born in Himara town. "especially when we have plenty of material which specifically points to something else". All those sources, when examined within their content have based it one the Pettifer source. That has also been established here in this discussion unless you did not read any of it and only selectively focused on certain editors comments while omitting others. Again no name calling. Content is the issue, not the person. For me Petro Marko and Aleks Çaçi are actual ethnic Greeks who have identified themselves as Albanians. They are though of Greek heritage, i accept that. I have always said i am no nationalist. Dhermi, Palasa, Himara and one of the Qeparo's are ethnic Greek villages and that is fact. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

We can't dismiss multiple wp:rs due to the fact the he wasn't born in the municipal capital, but in a small village just a couple of kms away. The argument is far too weak. I can name numerous examples where the authors name the nearest regional capital as a place of a person's birth, instead of the adjacent village. Nevertheless Dimitropoulos states that Koleka was born in Vuno.Alexikoua (talk) 17:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

As in the case of Marko and Çaçi, per wp:rs there is nothing to support a non-Albanian ancestry. I agree that in some ooccasions personal experience may explain this in a different way, but so far the available material is clear on each case.Alexikoua (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Reason being is that these figures did not contribute to Greek minority life or effect the Greek community so they are not covered. When these figures are of consequence regarding events they are covered. For example Fan Noli is viewed in Pyrhus Ruchas' book Albanian's captives as a "Greek" who betrayed hellenism for the Albanian cause. And that view is what people from the Greek speaking parts of the Himara region view Koleka. Koleka choose the Albanian part of his identity. Its complicated and gets murky as Skoulidas explains in that article about Orthodox Albanian intellectuals of the 19th century and their complex and overlapping identity issues.Resnjari (talk) 11:15, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, what's on each mind is a great mystery. But simply the fact that someone was born in a specific place does not de facto make him belong to an ethnic group. About the above examples: I assume you offer your personal thoughts. About Ruchas I'm afraid he isnt rs.Alexikoua (talk) 20:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

If one dug closely into the sources about Marko and Çaçi, there will most likely be something about them being Greek. Marko was confronted about this in an interview with him that has gone into a book about him in Albanian (e.g. http://www.scribd.com/doc/245267365/Petro-Marko-Interviste-Me-Veteveten#scribd ). My comments are not based on personal views. As for "But simply the fact that someone was born in a specific place does not de facto make him belong to an ethnic group." I agree wholeheartedly, yet not all seem to adhere to such things on Wikipedia. For example the article Greek Muslims infers by its title that people who speak Greek identify as Greek when clearly in the academic material they consider themselves as Turks and stated as such in the article. Yet attempts to change the title to Greek speaking Muslims has not occurred to be in line with what people themselves have said. As for Ruchas what do you mean by the abbreviation "rs" (what does it stand for as i am not sure ?)Resnjari (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Some additional details

Interesting enough, Dimitropoulos' thesis offers some additional detail about S.K.. In this fieldwork [[7]], he confirms V&P's about his priviledged status inside the minority. Moreover, worthy to add is that he was accused by other members of the minority for the forced relocations of various of his co-ethnics, as part of the tottalitarian regime's albanization process (p. 210-211).Alexikoua (talk) 16:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes it is interesting, however since its Dimitropoulos a few things need clearing up.

p. 210-211: Οι Βόρειοι Υπεριώτες πρόσφυγες της Ελλάδας, συχνά κατηγορούν συμπατριώτες τους ως υπαίτιους για τους εκτοπισμούς. Ο Γιώργος (Γκόγκος) Νούσης από τον Βουνό της Χημιάρς και ο επίσης Χιμαραίος Σπύρος Κολέκας, κατηγορούνται την εμπλοκή τους σε πολλές αποφάσεις εκτοπισμών, συμπατριωτών τους. Οι εξόριστοι γράφονται στα δημοτολόγια τον νέων τόπων όπου υποχρεούνται να διαμείνουν, ως αυτόχθονες Αλβανοί, τους επιβάλλεται η απαγόρευση της ομιλίας στην ηθική τους γλώσσα κ.α.

Translation: The Northern Epiriotes refugees in Greece, often accuse their compatriots as perpetrators of the deportations. George (Gogo) Nushi from Vuno in Himara and also Himariot Spiro Koleka are accused in their involvement in many decisions displacements, of their compatriots. The exiles written to the registries of new sites where required to reside as indigenous Albanians, their imposed a ban on speaking the language ethics etc.

One i am curious to know by what Dimitropoulos means as Northern Epriots and compatriots in this context? Those people who stated those things, where they Orthodox Albanians or Orthodox Albanian speakers who call themselves Greeks or Northern Epirotes when in Greece. Or where they Greek speakers from the settlements of Dhermi, Himara, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's(who were persecuted under the communists) and see people from Vuno as such (need clarity here). I ask this because Dimitropoulos on page 13 states that:

P. 13 χωριά διαγλώσσα η χωριά που για διάφορος λόγους (εγκατάσταση επικών πιέσεις κ.α) επέλεξαν την επίσημη κρατική γλώσσα αλλά παραμένει ισχυρή στους κατοίκους τους η ελληνική εθνική συνείδηση (π.η. Βουνό)

Translation: "bilingual villages the villages for various reasons (installation epic pressures etc.) chose the official state language, but remains strong their residents the Greek national consciousness (e.g. Vuno).

Kallivretkis who has done real fieldwork on the demographic matter in southern Albania, alongside Nitisakos who was in Vuno and published in 2010 when Dimitropoulos was finishing his thesis, states that Vuno is a Orthodox Albanian village. Also Dimitropoulos who on page 13 uses a village list that double counts Greek villages (e.g. Biovizhde/Valovista, and places Apsalla in the wrong geographic place), manipulates a source which talks about religious conversion in the inline citation(and mentions nothing about a linguistic or ethnic identity shift) to allege that Albanian Muslim Cham villages in Albania were once "Greek" and confuses current day Orthodox Albanian villages in Albania as being Albanian Muslim ones (Sopik and Ciflik) and gives no footnote or source regarding the issue of the Albanian state "forcing people" to speak only Albanian in villages he cites, i am concerned with what definition "Northern Epriots" means here and by compatriots. Does he mean people who are generally Orthodox, as is considered in Greece regagardless of language or other identities or is he referring to an ethnic difference or something like that ? As your encounter with a Vuno resident Burridehut has shown not all see themselves as "Northern Epriots" or Greek and so on and as Nitsiakos has shown, people like from Vuno use the term very carefully and in the presence of Greeks while avoiding discussing their true identity (p.466).Resnjari (talk) 05:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

To sum up, Nitsiakos states that they self define as "Northern Epirotes" and as such they define themselves under the same term as the inhabitants of the nearby Greek speaking settlements. Under this context they can be considered compatriots. What's the point here is that Koleka was accused for taking part in a state sponsored policy of forced relocations, as part of the region's forced albanization policies.

These policies, as part of the tottalitarian government's programm are also described by Pettifer and Vickers, who by the way are considered clearly pro-Albanian in dealing with Albanian related topics [[8]]. For example Pettifer states: "In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent." [[9]] (p. 6).

Moreover, it's interesting enough that the regime rejected any trace of cultural & ethnic plurarism. Thus, someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material. In the above paper it's also stated that (p.2):

while the outside world regarded the country as a grim, poverty-stricken gulag ruled by the world’s most hard-line communist regime, a European equivalent of North Korea under Kim Il Sung, the prevailing view nonetheless presupposed that rigid political uniformity implied the absence of cultural and ethnic diversity.

Needless to say that Koleka is considered Greek for a third time (p. 17 of the above paper, so it's hard to believe that's it's simply an error) Alexikoua (talk) 06:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I accept the bulk of things stated above. Nonetheless i have never, ever denied that the communists targeted Greeks from ethnic Greek villages(Himara, Dhermi, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's) and resettled people from there and also some Greeks from the Greek minority zone to other parts of the country. Enver did not recognise these settlements as belonging to the minority zone: Dhermi, Palasa, Himara, one of the Qeparos, Zvernec and Narta and it is these villages that were subjected to Albanisation the same way as many an Albanian speaking settlement was subject to Hellenisation through church and schools in Greece. He also targeted Orthodox Macedonians of Albania's Prespa region and i hope you are aware of their plight as they suffered as Macedonians and were targeted. Yet, you say this as if somehow i am in denial about this. Not sure if you are aware though, the regime targeted Catholic Albanians and many northern Albanian Muslims also. Roughly two thirds of the population was at any given time over the duration of the regime incarcerated. Enver knocked down more than 1, 300 mosques of which only a near 300 have been built in recent times (Most Orthodox churches 300 knocked down have been rebuilt.) Truly a devastating tragedy to the Muslim community which it still has not recovered of which you would agree, right? So Greeks were not singled out. Its just how communism is, or the ideology of it as represented through Stalinism. The comparison with North Korea is more than applicable. I take great offense however when you wrote that "Thus, someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material." Many of my relatives died in Albania opposing the regime and you insult their memory. I do not and will never advocate for a heinous regime and you equating it with me is very offensive. I seriously cannot believe you have written this. But then again why should be surprised. I have always taken academic material into account and of the highest order. It is you who often states POV first to any discussion(so much for good faith) before then grudgingly engaging with the material as was evident in the Albanian Chams page, the Souliots page and now in the Northern Epirus page. My query here was directly about what does Dimitropoulos mean when he uses the term Northern Epirotes in his work considering he has a multitude of issues on page 13 as i outlined. Who are these Northern Epirotes ? Are they Orthodox Albanian speakers, Greek speakers, are they from the Himara area or Greeks from the recognised Greek minority zone who are making these accusation regarding Koleka? Are they Muslim Albanians as Nitisakos has said that they use the term Northern Epirotes to get Greek papers (On the border. 2010. pp.313-314). Was Dimitropoulos taking with those people in Greece ? My questions do suffice here regarding the matter. As for page 17 that is the footnote to page 7. Now don't double count these things like Dimitropoulos has done. Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

As you generally agree with what I've stated above, I assume everything is fine and settled. Actually by saying that "someone who represents the official views of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material." (not vice versa) I'm in agreement with Pettifer who concludes that there was no way to accept the idea that ethnically and culturally heterogenous elements were part of the state. I really don't understand why you take it personal in this case, my comments were simply based on the available material. I appreciate your effort in this, but it has nothing to do with personal experience.Alexikoua (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I said i only agree with some things. There are still certian questions left outstanding. As for other matters Alexikoua, the reason why i got offended was that in your comments you equated me with the communist regime of Enver Hoxha by me supposedly agreeing with its views and being a mouthpiece for it. When conversing with Albanian editors take more care when stating something of that nature. I say this because for say a generalised example separate to this like calling Muslims Turk in the Balkans is a common practice by non-Muslims, but those who are of that heritage, but are not ethnic Turks take great offense to that. My point is to always stick with the content and not to equate a editor with a regime's views or something like that. I also say this because one day in real life you may come across someone and say something like that to their face and the end results may not be to your liking. I always try in my utmost to take care with such things. As for the Koleka thing its fine how it is at the moment. In Albania, stuff is only now starting to be written on certain figures within the communist party. The matter on Koleka can be revisited in the future when appropriate material fitting Wikipedia guidelines becomes available. As it stands now its ok as it was what i was calling for anyway as the compromise position.Resnjari (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

You misinterpreted my statement since I was quite clear that this isn't a vice versa equation but a one way sequence: fact A (adapting views of the PRA) is followed by conclusion B. If you read my comments carefully I'm sure you will be not feel offended at all.Alexikoua (talk) 20:04, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

It's this bit that was offensive: "someone who represents the official views' of the "People's Republic of Albania" rejects also Koleka's Greek origin without taking into account any academic material. You are basically saying that i do not take into consideration academic material and that i advocate or hold views for the past communist regime of Albania. Today, few Albanians do and i am not one of them. Be careful about equating people with views of a regime or the regime itself. For example, Milosevic and his cronies did all sorts of horrible things in Kosovo. Am i now going to equate every Serb with that man. No, and it would be reprehensible for me do so. Would i eqaute all Greeks with the views of Golden Dawn regarding Albanians. No. Just saying to keep that in mind.Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Since our subject is a strong man in a tottalitarian regime, it's quite reasonable as you point that he is unpopular in modern Albania as well as among the Greek minority as well (the last part cited by Dimitropoulos).Alexikoua (talk) 21:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I accept that. My questions where related as to who the Northern Epirotes that Dimitropoulos mentions are. Considering that Nitsiakos mentions that the term is used by a wide array of peoples in Southern Albania for various identity, or financial reasons, what does Dimitropoulos mean by that term. Are they Greek speakers (from the Himara area or other?), are the Orthodox Albanian speakers, are the Muslim Albanians who say they "Northern Epirotes"? Who does Dimitropoulos imply here, as Nitsiakos in his research has always made sure to point out when he sues the term regarding the people he talks to. Resnjari (talk) 05:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Scientific analysis and historic/official data used by foreign authors when writing about S.K.

Hello I am back. I know a couple of you missed me. Has anyone found any proof of Spiro Koleka (meaning also the Koleka clan) to be Greek? If this is the case please share. Any unscientific claims by Pettifer or authors referring to him in their books' bibliographies are excluded. So far the problem is identified with Pettifer, so we put him aside and treat him and the authors pointing at him separately. To the Greek editors here, please use your own state archives to find where the Kolekas live in Greece and when did they live there. Or find their properties there, or some house, a single grave, a single piece of paper written in Greek by anyone of them. Or find when did they last leave from Greece please, or how many were/are they. I want to know. Find some church records (in Albania or Greece), get some proof so you can save face and make me shut up. How difficult can it be to find something Greek in this important man? How come all his children never left any Greek notes somewhere or are not part of some Greek facebook group? How come Spiro's daughter writes poetry books and articles in Albanian and not single one in modern Greek language? Is this family really ashamed to be Greek or is it just (*drumroll*) not greek! How about you Zoupan and Alexikoua for once be not so sure about yourselves. How about some critical thinking applied in this article? I challenge the scientific and historic foundation of your sources. Burridheut (talk) 20:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

So far the only scientific English-speaking material which can be verified is Pettifer and Vickers (the latter in one work). I believe you need an explanation about why he is "unscientific" (the Vuno/Himare trick is too weak: Vuno is a tiny village a couple of kms from the Himara munipical center, thus not all authors care to point to this small but beautiful settlement, but in general saying X was from Himara, makes the job for them). Also, I'm afraid you need a good explanation about this recent edits [[10]], which are clearly pov:

According to James Pettifer Koleka was born into an ethnic Greek family: why not Vickers? and why not also Dimitropoulos as explained in the above section? and it follows: "This is contradicting other authors such as": you didn't bother to mention who are the "other"? even Kondo (who is "one" author) is badly cited, already tagged, and doesn't provide any info about an Albanian ancestry.Alexikoua (talk) 23:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Burridheut:, you are from the Koleka family, when in Vuno make people in the family ware of this. It might make someone in the family do something baout this like write a biography of Spiro and even his daughter issue a statement or say something about the identity thing in public. Then you can use that to challenge Pettifer remaining in the article. At the moment as it stands, its its good as a compromise to the situation. These matter can be revisited any time into the future when such sources become available. It is by no means a closed matter, bt open ended. Otherwise you will get banned permanently and then you will not be able to edit at all, allowing other editors who disagree with you to do what they want at will. Don't disadvantage yourself in that way.Resnjari (talk) 11:09, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari: where have you read that with personal declarations you can remove multiple wp:rs in wikipedia? Even if this happens there is no way to remove a mountain of evidence. I kindly suggest you fill a case at wp:ani, about how a declaration of this kind can exactly affect a wikipedia biography. I'm sure various experienced editors can give you directions about this and if there is any possibility to adjust or get rid of the part in question.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

First of all, it has been shown that there are discrepancies and accuracy issues regarding Pettifer and those who have subsequently cited him to make their point about Koleka. With that noted, if and or when a biography of Koleka gets written, any personal declarations cited in such works or by his family will take precedence due to those sources especially if they have simple details such as his birthplace correct. It may be a minute point for you, but its a big deal to other editors regarding accuracy issues. Moreover, as Wikipedia has third party adjudication, each editor can then make their case and then outside parties can decide. Like i have said this issue can be revisited well into the future. It is by no means a closed matter.Resnjari (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

In the meanwhile the text about Himara being predominantly Greek is just provocative and unrelated to this article. I want that removed as it is just there to confuse and misinform the public. Predominantly means more than 50%. If this can be proven I will rest my case. Burridheut (talk) 18:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I won't have problem to remove everything about demographics, including also the complicated self-identification of Vuno.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Both bits about Vuno being Orthodox Albanian and located in a region that has a majority of Greeks stays due to neutrality reasons and that sources have given complicated views about Koleka. People in Dhermi, Palasa and on of the Qeparo's are ethnic Greeks. Greek has always been their mother tongue, they self identify as Greeks and the main reason why Enver did not want to recognise them as such is because their settlements are in a geo-strategic and sensitive area. Today those villages are big, bigger than the Orthodox Albanian ones (see Kallivretakis for numbers and Nitsiakos says the same of Albanian census numbers.) and as such make the region "predominantly Greek", but not Greek completely. Albanian editors need to have this in mind, due to there at the moment being no peer reviewed material provided regarding their removal of Pettifer. I future when such material becomes available, then in can be brought forth and most sensibly and best, taken to third party adjudication on Wikiepdia where everything then can be scrutinised. Untill then it should stay the way it is as it is neutral.Resnjari (talk) 05:51, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: The "poorly cited source" is Edi Rama,a member of Koleka family.Unfortunately he says clearly that Koleka family is from Mirdita.Spiro Koleka had also Mirditor origin as he was a member of Koleka family.If he was greek,he wasn't from his paternal grandfather who gave him the surname Koleka.Maybe he was from his mother or from his paternal grandmother.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The text you insist to add (... "In fact Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita.", thus refuting all the existing material is in straight contradiction with your explanation... that he might be partly of non-Albanian origin. Moreover, when you cite something you need to include at least author, publisher, and in this case quote and translation.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry Alexikoua,I'll give you the author, publisher, and in this case quote and translation.It will help you so much!Rolandi+ (talk) 09:26, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Also you need to change the text from "he is definitely of Albanian origin" to "person X claims that he is partly of Albanian origin". I assume you understand that the entire meaning changes that way.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: Edi Rama doesn't say that Spiro Koleka was partly of Albanian origin.He says that Koleka family settled in Vuno coming from Mirdita.So the text will be: 1.During an interview Edi Rama explained that Koleka family's origin is from Mirdita and the surname "Koleka" derives from Kol and Leka.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem with that is Edi does not say anything about Spiro Koleka. He just states that in a generalised sense regarding the Koleka family and his Mother. The Greek editors will challenge that and say something like is it the same' Koleka family ? And where does it say Spiro Koleka in the statements made by Edi? So your going to have a difficult time getting it in. As it stand at the moment its ok. Until more peer reviewed stuff becomes avialable that has correct details about Koleka's life then it can be brought here and most likely will need third part adjudication regarding removal of Pettiffer. Untiel that time its fine as it is. Resnjari (talk) 05:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Edo Rama is the relative of Spiro Koleka and says that Koleka family settled in Vuno coming from Mirdita.No one can challenge it.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, for us of Albanian heritage yes we know Edi, this Spiro and the older Spiro are all from the Koleka family and they are Albanian. Thing is from a Greek editors perspective (view it from their angle or in other words put yourself in their "shoes") how would they challenge that. One they would say where did Edi cite this Spiro when he was talking about the Koleka family and two how can we be sure its the same Koleka's or that someone in the Koleka family did not marry a Greek from the nearby Greek speaking villages and so on. I say look at it from a Greek editors perspective (and world view regarding say Albanians and for example Islam, often derogatory but nonetheless) because then you know what they will challenge. I do this with all edits i have done when i have brought a source to the table and its ruffled a lot of feathers if you have seen some of the talk pages. Its also why my edits have been the most effective from Albanian editors in recent times because i always have that in mind when i use a source. How would a Serb or Greek challenge this. What issues are with the source (if there issues i don't use the source in the first place). That's why when i have brought a source for something contentious i have made sure for one that its anything but an Albanian (often more than not a Greek, anyway its more fun that way too as often their no becomes based their personal opinion than wikipedia policy. Its why many editors here are so fond of me. LOL). A more definite source regarding this matter will come into being (so just keep an eye out for it. Albanian editors have brought robust discussion here about what is wrong with Pettifer. But to take care of this matter, if and when other editors come across peer reviewed sources (Albanian for example and post 1992 importantly) from even the Koleka's themselves mentioning Sprio, the word Albanian and Vuno and so on in the one context then yes change/s can be made. We would probably need to go to third party arbitration for each side to set the case for it to happen. It wont be difficult in that instance as long as things stay civil. At the moment as it stands both the village birthplace sentence and the ethnicity section are fine as they are as they present all things and is neutral. Like i have said this matter is open ended due to academic sources only now in Albania (and outside as well) being written in depth on the communist era. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 00:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Separate Ethnicity-section

There is no need to separate ethnicity from the original body.--Zoupan 05:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, for simple chronological reasons this paragraph needs to be placed above the info about his life.Alexikoua (talk) 05:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

As done. @Rolandi+: be careful to claim consensus when there is none.--Zoupan 06:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The ethnicity section was separated by some other users during ANI and no one wasn't against it.As for Edi Rama he doesn't claim,he explains as he is a member of Koleka family,he isn't a serb editor in Wikipedia.Rolandi+ (talk) 06:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

So this is how you explain why there should be a separate section?--Zoupan 06:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

As for the ethnicity section I don't have any preference.As for Edi Rama he didn't claim as he is a member of the family.Rolandi+ (talk) 06:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually neither "claim" nor "explain" seems neutral to me. Better to just say "stated". --T*U (talk) 06:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@TU-nor: As there is no consensus about "claim" or "explain",the best choice is "stated".Rolandi+ (talk) 06:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I am adding "said" and no one can say it's not neutral.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:50, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Since ethnicity is hot-topic for greek editors, it shall be separate not to disrupt the whole text. Burridheut (talk) 12:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

As one recalls, a separate section was created by a editor (PrinceSulaiman) who was not of either Albanian or Greek heritage regarding the matter as a neutral solution to the matter (when it went to dispute resolution)? Why are editors of Greek heritage now trying to undo a neutral solution to the matter ? A separate ethnicity section is required due to the contested nature of the topic from those who have no interest in this article and from a non Balkan background. Also Alexikoua explain properly why you deleted the Anastas source [11]? Why did you deem it "unscientific" (whatever that means)? Justify though Wikipedia policy the deletion or it will be restored. Otherwise one is to think that certain editors here are not behaving in good faith ! Resnjari (talk) 14:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against a seperate origin section, but this section isn't big enough to warrant one. Moreover, per chronological sequence a paragraph about ogirins is always above the life of the subject itself. It's a simple chronological sequence that occurs in all biography articles (whether as seperate section or not).Alexikoua (talk) 22:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Why are editors of Greek heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ? I assume you need a better argument than to label every non-coethnic editor. Also when a part is problematic and contains more than one tag, you don't have to wonder when this is removed. Nevertheless, it would be kind enough to address the problematic issues at least now, if you want this back to the article (by the way it was Burrit. who did the last copy-edit in this [[12]]) Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua, the tag said that it needed clarification. There was nothing about verification. Thus not needing its deletion. A big difference. Just because a tag exists does not mean it needs to be deleted. Also you did not bring issues regarding the Anastas tribute article in here within the talk page. You decided to just go right ahead with that action of deletion. I assume you need a better argument than to label every non-coethnic editor. Lol ! I did so because you did that deletion without consultation. So my comment was more than warranted. Again you still have not provided what the "scientific" issues (your rationale for deleting the source) were with the Anastas article that also are in line with Wikipedia policy. Need to explain here, otherwise anything with a tag can be deleted. In case you have not noticed, i have always asked in the talk page about any further issues about a section with a tag from other editors before i then delete or make changes. Please consult before making unilateral decisions which may be interpreted as not being in good faith. I will also add that during the outside adjudication process non-Balkan editors kept the Anastas bit in and did not see the need to delete it also. Nevertheless, it would be kind enough to address the problematic issues at least now. You need to point out what are the issues so i can address them, i can not read your mind. As for Burridheut, we will get to that after we deal with your edit first which preceded his. Yours was one of the main changes after things were presumed to have been settled, so firstly we start off with your edit. Resnjari (talk) 00:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

To explain this with even more simple words the problematic part you are eager to restore was added by Burrit. [[13]] and you you need to support this version with serious arguments (I assume you understand that there is no quality in arguments that simply point to the nationality of the editors Why are editors of X heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ?). The so-called neutral solution, which was by the fact a clear wp:ninja edit, was immetiately tagged and then removed after there was no explanation provided:

This is contradicting other authors (who?) such as Anastas Kondo, who writes that Koleka was born into a patriotic Albanian family.-ref-Kondo, Anastas (31 August 2001). “U nda nga jeta ish anëtari I shtabit të përgjithshëm të ushtrisë NÇL, shoku Spiro Koleka. [A former member of the Army General Staff of the National Liberation Front passed away, our friend Spiro Koleka]”. Kushtrim Brezash. Retrieved 8 August 2015. -ref- (dubious-discuss: where it's written that he is Albanian? not to mention that's a dead link now)

Actually the part after "this is contradicting" is followed by a completely wp:or part with a reference that does not support the text itself. Moreover "other authors" is plural & Kondo (who does not in fact support this) is one & single author.Alexikoua (talk) 18:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If its about the article not mentioning outright that Koleka is Albanian, that is fine and should have been voiced earlier when that discussion was had so the wording in question could have been discussed. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did things in good faith. Nonetheless the Anastas article is still more than warranted in the main Wikipedia article. Anastas Kondo a native of Vuno and an academic writes in the article that this Spiro Koleka was a relative of the other Spiro (Gogo) Koleka. In other Wikipedia articles, links to other family relatives of significance are mentioned. The Kondo article cannot be thus excluded. I will give the following passage from the article in Albanian and subsequent translation to make it simple to quote your words.

Albanian: Lindi në një familje me tradita të zjarrta patriotike. Një tjetër Spiro Koleka I fisit të tij, qe ministër i qeverisë së Tiranës më 1920, dhe një nga organizatorët e Luftës së Vlorës, që e hodhi ltalinë në det.

English: Born into a family of an ardent patriotic tradition. Another Spiro Koleka of his clan, that was a Tirana government minister in 1920, and one of the organizers of the War of Vlora, who threw the ltalians into the sea.

Also its not a dead link. The article is scanned and has been placed on a website where Pictures are stored and accessible. The article is a real source and the link is active. Not sure what you were clicking.

"Why are editors of X heritage now trying to undo a "neutral" solution to the matter ?). The so-called neutral solution, which was by the fact a clear" Its so called to you who said nothing during that time when a separate "ethnicity" section was created. Why did you not say anything ? Very curious. Just to recall in case things have gotten a bit much, that the neutral solution which anyone can check in the history page was one done when this article went to arbitration. Importantly it was done by a non-Balkan editor. You seemed to have once again said nothing there when a separate ethnicity section was created. Its that silence that i find interesting as only now you seem to speak up. Please, explain so we can know what has changed and also why that is especially when issues relating to that part of the article are contested and are better sited to be separate than combined in the main article? Resnjari (talk) 21:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I want to remind everyone that so far the contribution of the Greek editors has been resulting in a big ZERO of REAL INFORMATION to this article! It is really a shame that shows deep desperation of such editors to stick to something incorrect, as long as it fits to their nationalistic bias. If Spiro had anything Greek, we would have found it by now. He lived for 92 years and was a living encyclopedia himself. How come you cannot find a single thing written by him or any family member of him in the Greek language? How come you don't find any folk verses/poems about any of the Kolekas in Greek language, but you find them in Albanian language? I hope you sleep well at night with your conscience dear Greek editors, if you have any conscience that it. Because scientific critical thinking is out of the question with what I have seen so far. And try to not disrupt any further the article, you are severely eroding your reputation in wikipedia. Burridheut (talk) 21:02, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Stop with the OR and POV-pushing. There is no consensus to separate the information on origin, neither is there a explanation why this should be done. Why call upon consensus when there is none? Why is "Patriotic tradition" understood as "ethnic Albanian" or "non-Greek"? Stop using the word "neutral" for a revision which obviously isn't. --Zoupan 23:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

You need some guidance as it seems. Where am I using the word "neutral"? Can you find it, because I cannot. You and Alexikoua are reverting the article edits done by other users in turns, so that while reverting your disruptions I reach my revert limit before you two, since it is two of you alternating. Aren't you ashamed of your lowly methods? Is this what wikipedia is for you? A platform to exercise your nationalistic vendettas? @Resnjari & @Rolandi+ how do we get these two so called Greek editors to stop reverting our edits? Is there a way that you suggest from experience that would work? Reasoning and logic have no impact on them, we have all proven this by now. Burridheut (talk) 05:26, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The rationale that editors of specific nationalities should be targeted by your co-ethnics is the epitomy of disruption in wikipedia. Kindly saying that you are one step before being reported, not to mention that Resnjari is adopting this approach. I suggest you both address the issues of the part in question as I've kindly stated above, but unfortuntately you have just proved that you are out of arguments. Thus, in case there is no reference which states that he is ethnic Albanian the correspodent text has no place too. That's a basic rule in this project no matter the national background of the editors.Alexikoua (talk) 08:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Who do you think you are? Why do you think your opinion counts more than mine or Resnjaris? Why are you reverting my edits non-stop, but if I revert yours I risk getting reported? Listen up. You are just an internet anonymous with lots of time in your hands. Obviously, you don't have another job, but I am sure the greek propaganda pays very well nowadays. How about you write about topics and people that you have knowledge about? How about you leave politics out of here? This is valid also for Zoupan, get another job guys, this career is not for you. Burridheut (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You also need to respect wp:NPA. It's a basic rule in this project. Also for the n-th time Kondo doesn't claim what you are eager to add, thus it's no wonder that your version can't stay.Alexikoua (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

That is your humble opinion. The section of the Ethnicity claims shall be separate, nothing you can do about that I am afraid. You are hereby kindly warned not to revert again. Talk here instead, gain consensus and then proceed. Very unprofessional behavior. Burridheut (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

By the way, you massacred a whole article because you did not agree with a single statement? WOW! Burridheut (talk) 19:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)