Talk:Steel

"Henry VII commissioned a new ironworks at Newcastle, in a part of Sussex known as the Weald". Something is wrong here. There is no Newcastle in Sussex, certainly not the Newcastle-on-Tyne that the link goes to. Can anyone correct this?

This article is a work of racism. Nowhere in the article is steelcraft in africa mentioned, nor the fact that the bloomery was invented in africa by africans. This article doesn't adhere to any standard of literary decency, and should not be a so-called "good article".

then don't just complain about it. Do some research and add the missing information. Jerdwyer 05:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is mine, but the source I thought said it, does not in fact name a Newcastle as the site of the first English blast furnace.

I did some Googling, and this site [1] names a Newbridge in the Ashdown Forest as the site of Henry's 1496 construction. Shimmin 11:10, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

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need more history. i found a webpage once that claimed there were people in Africa who had developed special kilns using dried up termite hills and 8-man tube-blowing teams that could actually produce steel without any sort of industrial power, but that the tradition was going extinct with the introduction of industrialized products.

i have also read interesting things about 'wootz' steal from the india/paksitan/afghanistan region which was highly thought of in europe apparently.

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wootz steel = Damascus steel, best in the world until the introduction of Huntsman's technique in 1740, aka "Sheffield steel". Bessemer's process produces steel of the same quality for a fraction of the cost.

Other type of "steel"

The discussion should also include ductile iron and cast iron, including the history and commercial usage.

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Note that ferrite is not linked, although there is a page on this concerning its magnetic properties - would it be appropritate to link this? Leonard G. 04:54, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

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Jared Diamond (Guns, etc) claims that Bantu people were heating Steel before the birth of Christ, on both coasts (East & West) I think, unless I misremember.

Properties of steel

I think a table on the side needs to be created showing the many different properties of steel. Other articles on materials should have this as well. In particular I was looking for its resisitivity or conductivity. Other useful properties would be melting point, atomic or molecular mass, maleability, etc. Perhaps this page is too general to have such specifics, but in that case, there could be a table to "see the properties of" carbon steel, stainless, etc. Fresheneesz 03:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I added the link to Steel (disambiguation) because it may expand to include other uses of the word that are not already covered here (such as Danielle Steel, or other persons that may have that name). I don't see what it hurts to have it here, so I'm reinstating it. Please bring up any objections here. -- Wapcaplet 06:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Currently three of the four disamb links refer to this article or types of steel discussed in and linked to within this article. Surely anyone searching for the author wouldn't just type in steel - well maybe they would, considering the intelligence level. Seems to be just unneeded clutter now. It may expand -- but will it? I'll leave it there for now, pending expansion. Ferrous is out. -Vsmith 15:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree with the Steel disambig link - for pretty much the same reasons as VSmith - but won't revert until I see if there is any more response. Noisy | Talk 17:00, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. The Steele disambiguation page is what made me think to add it, but that page also contains some links that probably shouldn't be there. Do as you will with it. -- Wapcaplet 18:12, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

don't forget the film of the same name and its eponymous DC comic hero. <.< that seems like a worthwhile thing to justify a disambiguation page.

Density

• Shouldn't quantitative physical properties such as density be listed here?
  • Exactly my point. - Jerryseinfeld 00:26, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm willing to do a general properties of steel section - I'll make the physical properties those of say 1008 carbon (the most vanilla grade on earth) or A36 - and then provide some example of different grades mech props. Suggestions welcome and appreciated. Will put together before 1/28/05 RyanDiS

I've been told that steel has a "characteristic length" of 40 km. The formula for characteristic length is tensile-strength/(density*1g). I was hoping the steel article could either confirm that number, or tell me the correct number. --DavidCary 19:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Is this a featured article? If not, why not? It is truly excellent Tannin 09:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't seen your comment, Tannin, but I think so too! -- llywrch 04:36, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Iron more brittle than steel

"Steel with increased carbon content can be made harder and stronger than iron, but is also more brittle." High carbon steel is more brittle than low carbon steel, but it is less brittle than iron. This sentense structure can be misleading.

African iron age

Removed this claim (steel, 1400 BC) for two reasons.

(1) Among archaeologists, there exists little consensus as to the date of the beginning of the iron age in sub-Saharan Africa. Stating a date in the second millennium BC should not be done without stating covering this controversy in more detail.

(2) Determining what is wrought iron and what is low-carbon steel is an impossible judgment call. See first English novel for an example of a similarly meaniningless academic argument. Shimmin 15:52, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Hardened steel

I'm trying to help fix a link on the spring (device) page for hardened steel. Am I right in thinking that hardened steel is just an annealed steal, and perhaps more exactly that spring steel an annealed high carbon steel.

no that is completely incorrect. Annealed is the opposite of hardend, while spring steel referst to a specific type of alloy.--Knife Knut 04:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

In either case, we could probably use a redirect for each and appropriate descriptions added to this page. -- Solipsist 20:18, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if we can get away with making a "hardened steel" page without someone calling it a dicdef, but let's give it a try. Meggar 07:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Definition

Defining steel as mainly iron with a primary alloying element of carbon is problematic since modern high speed steels are all "alloying element" and no iron. Alternatively is you're taking the view that high speed steels which contain no iron are just mis-named this should be mentioned.

• I have never seen a HSS that doesn't contain iron. Look at the definition of High speed steel Wizard191 23:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Template?

I propose we create Template:Steels along the lines of Template:Punctuation marks. I'll start and, if it looks good, it can get added to the appropriate pages. —BenFrantzDale 21:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

One-step production

Does anyone know of a one-step industrial-scale production method for steel? I have recently heard of a new method that uses a single step to produce steel, and has a 90-95% yield from iron ore to steel (as opposed to 60-70%, right?). It's supposed to be a special form of furnace in which you place the iron ore at the beggining and extract steel at the end. --AK7 16:22, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

African perspective

This article is a work of racism. Nowhere in the article is steelcraft in africa mentioned, nor the fact that the bloomery was invented in africa by africans. This article doesn't adhere to any standard of literary decency, and should not be a so-called "good article". -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.24.236.159 (talk • contribs) 06:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

This can be quite a common problem on Wikipedia. At the moment, the majority of editors are from the West and despite efforts to counter bias, we don't always have an accurate global view. You could try adding the template {{Globalize}} to the top of this talk page, in order to tag it for extra attention. -- Solipsist 07:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Any experts on steel's melting point?

Hi. Sort of off-topic for Wikipedia in a sense. But this could help another article on wikipedia. A series of US "Experts" claim that 9/11 could be a hoax based on a set of reasons they've outline. One of them is that:

• "Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700*F, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800*F under optimal conditions, and UL certified the steel used to 2,000*F for six hours, the buildings cannot have collapsed due to heat from the fires. How is this possible?

Does anyone happen to know if these temperatures quoted could be correct?

I contend anyone can throw a bunch of facts and figures against a chalk board and contend it is so. And a majority of the people who have *no idea* of what is true or not, might 'buy it' and accept it as fact. So my question is do these temperatures in fact hold true based on the knowledge of others here?

Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks#Experts_Claim_Official_9.2F11_Story_is_a_Hoax.3F

Source: Experts Claim Official 9/11 Story is a Hoax

The by-line is "PRWEB" and the 'experts' are Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow: either Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 or 9/11 Conspriacy theorists, depending on which fork you prefer. It is the nature of conspiracy theories that they either ignore rebuttals, or incorporate them as part of the conspiracy, so I am not sure how much difference it makes what the actual material properties of steel are, but steel melts between 2400 and 2800 F. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Those temperatures look like the right order of magnitude, but from what I've heard it sounds like the cause of failure was buckling due to creep, which can occur at about half the absolute melting temperature, so on the order of 1100 °F, just barely red-hot. ―BenFrantzDale 06:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Ben is correct, at high temperatures creep becomes a real problem. But more so at these high temperatures steel can convert from BCC to FCC, which has a much lower YS (yield strength). The steel used was probably some sort of mild steel, which means the temperature where this transformation occurs is around 1350 F, which is much below the 1800 F under ideal conditions. I suspect the experts just said it "melted" to simplify it for the media and now the conspiracy therorist are running with this misinformation. Wizard191 05:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Iron vs. steel

Wrought iron has too little carbon, and is therefore too malleable; cast iron has too much carbon, and is therefore too brittle. Then why not mix them together to get steel? I’m guessing that there’s more to steel than just carbon quantity. Is it structure? I can’t really understand the section of the article that explains it, and I don’t have time to read it all. If possible, could a brief explanation of the difference be included in the introduction? Twilight Realm 01:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a metalurgist, but I don't see a real reason you couldn't mix the two to get steel. The issue is that carbon is only so soluable in iron, so if you add more than about %2.1 carbon, it won't stay in solution. There is more to steel than this, because the carbon and iron can come in different crystal phases which is what's going on with heat-treating. —BenFrantzDale 12:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

There has been a process in the past (not yet described in Wikipedia) that have produced steel from molten pig iron and wrought iron plates. However it evidently did not produce as good steel as later methods. Mixing wrought iron and pig iron would require the process to be carried out at a high enough temperative to melt wrought iron. It was hard to produce a high enough temperature to melt steel (see crucible steel), the melting point of pure iron would be still higher. There would also be problems with impurities and getting a homogeneous product. Peterkingiron 17:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Africa

Try hide the African connection way down at the bottom of this discussion page while calling this a good article? Here are a couple informative links retrived from a quick google: http://www.ironsmelting.net/www/smelting/index.html http://www.yale.edu/environment/publications/bulletin/102pdfs/102lanfranchi.pdf http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/ev.php-URL_ID=5166&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html http://www.springerlink.com/(tyce3mmwujm5qdvpsbzxe345)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,10,10;journal,38,48;linkingpublicationresults,1:104827,1 unsigned comment by 153.2.246.33

Possible copyvios

I removed two large edits that were identical to text here and here. DVD+ R/W 03:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

tanja

ngnghgh

It is perhaps unfortunate (but probably inevitable) that this historical section of this article has conlated iron with steel. Steel is an alloy of iron with 1-2% carbon, whereas iron is either cast iron (or pig iron) with 4-5% carbon or wrought iron with neglibible carbon. Accordingly the discussion of Abraham Darby (who made iron NOT steel) ought not to be part of this article. Peterkingiron 15:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

On looking at historical sections further, I found a significant number of errors that I ahve corrected. In particular the raw material for blister steel was bar iron, not ore; and Huntsman's crucible process involved blister steel not cast and bar iron. I continue to have grave doubts about whether sections on ironmaking belong her at all. Recent research publihsed in Sussex Archaeological Collections indicates that Newbridge was not quite the first blast furnace in England. However there were earlier ones in the Pay de Bray in France and even earlier in Namur (Belgium). It seems that they may have developed in Germany or Sweden in the medieval period. Peterkingiron 15:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

industrial steelmaking

I found (and have altered) the incorrect statement that steel powered the industrial revolution. Iron (rather than steel) was important in the first industrial revolution. Steel was an expensive commodity and only used where this was unavoidable before Bessemer. Peterkingiron 22:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Add blurb to end of intro?

I suggest adding this after the first two intro paragraphs to get a better 'introductory' feeling to steel:

"Steel, defined as such, constitutes one of the most studied materials in all of materials science. In fact, the study of steels is so extensive that most of all metallurgical literature ever published is divided into two categories: 'ferrous' volumes, which pertain to steel, and 'nonferrous' volumes, which pertain to everything else. Even in the present, there arguably exists no other metal, ceramic, polymer, or composite class that can combine superior performance, cost-effectiveness, and sheer versatility to the degree that steel can. Over the years, steel has earned a reputation that makes it one of the few widely recognizable metals to which many other materials are compared to as a standard, in both non-technical and technical fields."

From Heaviside

Nobody likes to be overly critical to a selfless piece of scholarship. But if you are interested in a fascinating and humorous description from a metallurgical point of view that includes many historical references to India, Japan, China and Africa then go to:

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_4.html

totally awesome - I hate to say it but it blows this rather thin Wikipedian offering out of the water. As a matter of fact it should wholesale replace this article. Heaviside

Solubility of carbon in iron

Someone put in a peak solubility of carbon in iron of 2.04% at 1146°C. My book (cited in the article) says 1.7% at 1130°C. It's very possible that both could be right, depending on quantities of manganese or other impurities or something. Please cite your source, or additional numbers, and we can try to sort this out.--Yannick 02:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If it's the number I put in when I edited this page long ago, the number comes from the Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, 4th ed. In the meantime, someone else has put in a graphical phase diagram, which also eyeballs to a maximum solubility of carbon in austentite of slightly over 2% at around 1150°C. Shimmin 11:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)