Talk:Irina Bokova

Education

One generally does not get an MBA in IR. The entry needs correction and/or citations.--128.54.238.5 (talk) 04:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in the other languages of wikipedia it is written only "international relations" or "Moscow institute of ..." without any reference to "MBA".

There are two major English Schools in Sofia - First and Second English High-School of Sofia. Which one she attended? Probably First, but a citation is needed anyways.DemonX (talk) 10:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic Macedonian from Bulgaria

I made the change, adding the cited fact, that Bokova is of Macedonian ancestry.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:20, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian in this context means Bulgarian from Macedonia. I have corrected the above edit.

Kostja (talk) 11:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not something strange. Most of the sources on Wikipedia are based on articles announced in newspapers. Especially, in this case. I don't think that I made something wrong. I cited source in Bulgarian, where the fact was confirmed, and I don't think that this is POV. My propose is to revert the cited fact, and to stop deny the true.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion is not a POV, but extreme POV. Jingby (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think it was just a case of misunderstanding. What the media in question meant is that she was Bulgarian from the region of Macedonia. That's all that is. Neither she, nor her relatives have self-identified as ethnic Macedonians. It's a common mistake to make for someone not into the whole issue. --Laveol ^T 20:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

How naïve must one be?

Her father was a prominent Communist Party member. No wonder she ended up in a position of power herself. Did anyone in Bulgaria rejoice over her election, btw?

Fyromian (yugoslav) vandalism on Bulgaria related pages

It seems that there is a group of former Yugoslavs from FYROM who stubbornly vandalize many Wikipedia pages related to Bulgaria, trying to spread the old Yugoslav Nazi ideology about "ethnic Macedonians". For these persons I would like to point out that in the Bulgarian language the word "Macedonian" means "a Bulgarian from the region of Macedonia". It has nothing to do with the Yugoslav invented "ethnic Macedonians" from FYROM. So please first learn Bulgarian and only then cite Bulgarian sources. Vedm (talk) 18:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

The Allegations of the Assassination of Raiko Alexev and Attempts to Subdue them.

1. Important Matter. There are substantiated claims that Ms. Bokova's father Mr. Georgi Bokov is the perpetrator of the assassination of the Bulgarian artist, cartoonist, satirist, journalist and publisher Raiko Alexiev (penname Fra Diavolo)in the days immediately after the communist coup of September 9, 1944.

2. Prima Facie Substantiation. The claims are detailed in the documentary book "Goreshto Cherveno" ("Hot Red")by Ivaila Alexandrova, Sofia 2008, ISBN: 978 954 491 409 7. Written by a reputable Bulgarian journalist, the book is based on interviews with Mr. Alexiev's surviving wife and on documents. It has been awarded for journalistic achievement by the Union of Bulgarian Journalists - a recognized non-political professional organisation.

3. No Refutation by Bokova. Ms Bokova has never commented publicly on these allegations - neither to deny them, nor to give a moral judgement.

4. Relevance. This fact is of great importance as Ms. Bokova is assuming the post of UNESCO's Director General. It is going to affect her ability to lead in cases of infringement of artistic and journalistic freedom and in cases such people are prosecuted, tortured and executed. Her pedigree has been the subject of comments in all international press, so this establishes the relevance of the family background of someone taking up such a prominent position. All the more relevant is the fact that Ms. Bokova's father was not simply a prominent communist but probably an executioner of a key intellectual figure for political reasons. If confirmed, this fact would qualify strongly the assessment of her personal and professional making and morals. It will have a growing bearing on her reputation at UNESKO. All these issues are the matter of increasingly heated public debate in Bulgaria and will no doubt spill over internationally.

5. A Word of Advise. Instead of trying to suppress the information on the matter on wiki and other places why not advise Ms. Bokova to engage in some better form of damage management by issuing a detailed statement on the matter?

Please, create a new article about her father, whose name is still not active on Wikipedia (in red). Afterwards his name would be active (in blu) and who is interested in his biography can receive this info after clicking on his name, i.e. Georgi Bokov. Thank you! Jingby (talk) 08:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I find it ironic that ardent anti-Communists are against Irina Bokova only because of her father, which is rather simmilar to the Communist attitude. Kostja (talk) 15:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

-

How about some argumentation when using "POV Pusher" labels?

I understand why people disagree with judging Ms. Bokova by who her father was. But the fact that there is such critique in Bulgaria remains a fact never-the-less and it was reflected in the international media. Reporting this fact (not advocating for the judgement) is perfectly legitimate on a wiki article referring to a "current event". Even more so is the fact that the Bulgarian debate is moving from some the vague general referrals to her father's past to focus on Ms. Bokova's own reaction (or lack thereof) to the substantiated allegations of the execution of notable cultural figure by her father as she is assuming the leadership of the world's cultural organisation. Besides the current internal reactions, this fact could have a continuous relevance, as Ms. Bokova will certainly have to deal with commemoration of artists and intellectuals executed by various authoritarian regimes. She may even have to defend ones that are presently tortured. And just imagine if there is an initiative that UNESCO commemorates Rajko Alexiev (as it did with Vapcarov). Thus, reporting this aspect of the current Bulgarian controversy is perfectly pertinent. Karadjin (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

1. I find it amusing that an obviously single-purpose account was created just to throw dirt at one person. I don't know where it stems from, but your hatred towards Bokova is quite visible. This is in no way good for the credentials of any editor.

2. Could you point me to any evidence that Bokova was supportive to to any murders. It'd be nice to see if her official position is actually supportive. I highly doubt that, cause in that case her diplomatic career would have been over before it started.

3. Why should she be responsible for crimes, committed by her father? Did she do anything like this? Did she order anyone's death? I find all these allegations quite absurd and yes, indeed, this is classic POV-pushing, based on personal or political hatred. --Laveol ^T 17:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is blaming Ms. Bokova for crimes committed by her father. However, the information is relevant because there is controversy over Ms. Bokova's figure in Bulgaria on these grounds, and it is not every day that people with such background become high-profile international officials. We should keep this information in the article, provided it stays NPOV. Ivanicov (talk) 13:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Why are you tieng to hide the truth?

I see, you editors here are all bulgarians, you are trying to hide your shame. Don't try to do it, if this is really a neutral encyclopedia (even one on the internet), why don't you show the reality? She may be great person, but her origin MUST be shown! It's important what her father did, she won her education and respectively her new duties thanks to her father and the death of Rayko Aleksiev. If Georgi Bokov never killed him how was he supposed to take his place of member of the Central Committee of BCP and editor-in-chief of Workers' Deed? If the editors of this article don't know the story or if they are ex members of BCP or if they are under the infuse of some patriotic feelings (bulgarian director of UNESCO), they CAN NOT be neutral! Some western or whatever (just not from Bulgaria, or other post communistic countries) should join the editing process.

Or Wikipedia is just not objective source. Thanks.

The name of this article is not Georgi Bokov. 13:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Not, BUT it's important for HER personality as well. Already told it here. Don't try to hide the truth under some fake arguments, one sentence about her father won't change the topic. It can be moved to the refs only if there is separate article about G.B.

Sock, just create articles abouth this persons. That you have make is communist manner of work. Jingby (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

And were not the communists the guys that were hiding the truth? And were not the communists who killing in order this truth to stay hidden? You are the one with communist manner or you are just trying to hide your shame.

Personal attacks don't belong in Wikipedia, so please try to use real arguments.

Kostja (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Some facts on the controversy issue in Mrs. Bokova's father past

Since many people quote the book "Hot red", it seems I am the only one, who actually spent some time reading it, and as a result, I published a detailed description of all versions of the death of Mr. Raiko Alexiev. Based on the advice of one of the Wikipedia editors, I moved all the details of this tragic death into the discussion page (in Bulgarian). Here's a brief summary:

• The book - in the discussed part - is built on interviews with the widow of Mr. Raiko Alexiev, and quotes from other people;
• Mr. Alexiev has been arrested by the notorious Mr. Lev Glavinchev;
• According to Mr. Alexiev's son, Vesselin, his Father has been tortured by a Mr. Zeev, investigator;
• According to a Bulgarian writer, Boris Delchev, who claimed he heard another Bulgarian writer, Ivan Bogdanov saying that "the whole responsibility for Mr. Alexiev's death "lies with Mr. Krum Kyulyavkov. Mr. Alexiev has been detained and tortured upon his request. The death was result of the torture";
• According to a Bulgarian artist, Nikolay Shmirgela, Mr. Alexiev has "died from a sudden death - angina, renal crisis, or something else, but not torture";
• According to the widow of Mr. Alexiev, another (unnamed) writer or cartoonist "have sent a material to be published in Mr. Alexiev's newspaper, but Mr. Alexiev didn't publish it", and she continues, "other eyewitnesses told me that the same person has jumbed on Mr. Alexiev, and probably he died because of this" (page 121);
• According to a prominent Bulgarian writer and teacher of the author of the book, he's been called twice in the last few years, and has stated that the death of Mr. Alexiev is connected to certain names of Geshev and Alexieva"; (page 246)
• Bulgarian writer Radoy Ralin has said that "... Mr Georgi Bokov - has been showing off that he has slapped Mr. Alexiev 400 times" (page 68);
• The same Radoy Ralin has also said, "Kyulyavkovs have organized the death of people like Raiko Alexiev, and the succeeded" (page 185);
• in an interview, published in the Bulgarian "24 hours" in 2011, the writer of "Hot red" quotes Mr. Ralin, as if he confirmed that Mr. Bokov has been the one, who killed Mr. Alexiev. However, this seems new information, and is not quoted in the book. Mr. Ralin has passed away several years ago, and obviously has not given any source for his statements;
• in a response to the interview in the "24 hours", Mr. Filip Bokov, brother of Mrs. Bokova, claims that his father "has never seen Mr. Alexiev. Mr. Bokov has not been in Sofia until 1946 - 2 years after the murder of Mr. Alexiev. There were witnesses of people from Razlog, who have worked with him at that time." Further, Mr. Filip Bokov claims that the author of "Hot red" has never checked Mr. Georgi Bokov's biography, which would have persuaded her that the statements in her book are not supported by the facts, and she has never searched to talk to any of Mr. Bokova's family to check the facts.

Remark from the editor:

• The above quotes and information from the book and interviews in the Bulgarian media made me believe that while I am not aware of the reasons for spreading the rumors about Mr. Georgi Bokov's involvement in Mr. Alexiev's death, there's not enough direct or indirect evidence whatsoever, except one statement by a Bulgarian writer, who have not been present at the events. Full disclaimer: I knew Mr. Ralin, as my own father was also a writer, and my grandfather - a poet, during the same time, when Mr. Ralin was writing. Veni Markovski (talk) 19:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Director-General

This article Irina Bokova article stated - "She defeated [nine candidates] at the election in Paris, with Farouk Hosny ultimately being defeated by 31-27 in the fifth and last round of voting". But UNESCO stated that "[Eight candidates] ran for the position, and 58 countries voted for them".

I want to know -

• Eight/Nine candidates name.
• What's the real figure? Can anybody explain it?

Have a nice day. - Subrata Roy (talk) 10:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

blocking Jewish exhibit

Why nothing on her appeasing Arab bloc and canceling the 3500 exhibit in Paris?204.14.66.194 (talk) 02:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Because it's not "her appeasing". Read more sources, not just newspapers. Veni Markovski (talk) 05:22, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Controversy re: participating at the military parade in Russia - May 9, 2015

The following statement from the main article has no evidence in the quoted sources, therefore I am moving it here, until such source is found:

In the above quoted sources, there's no mentioning of Mrs. Bokova to participate at the Military parade. Most EU and Western leaders have boycotted the event as a result of Russia's policy on Ukraine and its annexation of Crimea. On the parade Bokova will join the leaders of North Korea, Cuba, Mongolia, Vietnam and alike. This stance according to her is meant to demonstrate that "UNESCO was founded to promote the principles of humanism".

I have also edited the information about her visiting Moscow around May 9. From her interview, she's not doing anything different than Mrs. Merkel, but we will have to wait until May 9, and see. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Updates in 2016

I noticed that there is a new anonymous user, who has made about a dozen edits in the last days of 2015, and continues in 2016. While some of his/her edits are correct, others are quite out of order. "Vassko" User_talk:Vassko may be better discussing issues first here, before trying again to edit. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 18:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

vassko (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)===In the media=== I see no reason to have a special section "In the media". Mrs. Bokova is a well-known figure, a world leader, and there are articles about her on almost daily or weekly basis. It seems only logical that if one starts publishing news pieces, just to say what's written about her, then the Wikipedia article soon will become only a reference page for news stories. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 18:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Veni you have been COI #tagged here. You have some special reasons to edit her page out of any controversial links to her past and current world media coverage about her.

Bokova features as a main character in three plays by Paris-based UK playwright Nick Awde – Bruges (The Europeans Part 1; Edinburgh Festival 2014), Antwerp (The Europeans Part 2; Edinburgh Festival 2015), and Tervuren (The Europeans Part 3; 2016).

Frontrunner for top UN job exaggerates biography by German Die Welt

UNESCO boss coiffed their resume by German Die Welt (UNESCO chief Irina Bokova will necessarily be 2016 UN Secretary General. For the Bulgarian cheat even a little in their past - and set out on your CV to Foreign Minister.)

Bulgarian Communist and UNESCO Boss Irina Bokova May Lead UN (Video)

Russia Wants the Next UN Chief to Be Eastern European, Lavrov Says By Bulgarian Novinite.com

Dear "Vassko", perhaps you mean Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest, but the tag that you use so freely needs to somehow be justified (and, by the way, the fact that you are an anonymous user might mean that you are indeed in COI, but then, how would we know? It's good you moved the content here - let the other people say if it is relevant. If other editors find it relevant, then I'd be more than happy to contribute with about three dozens of articles, which are quite relevant to her work at UNESCO, and another couple of dozen - before that. But I doubt it - I opened random pages of people like Helen Clark, Ban Ki-moon and others - nowhere I could see a section "in the media". Everywhere the references are listed where they belong - at the end, and only if they make sense to the main article. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Veni, I am not anonymous (I am Vassko as the internet knows me) as some of the users who are editing Bokova's page and removing content. I know what COI is, thank you. I had not add the media page, I only added recent articles about her, which YOU found that they are not relevant and no one else.

Dear "Vassko", I looked into your history and noticed only 18 recent edits of Irina Bokova page since December 24th (Special:Contributions/Vassko); if you have other edits, please, let us know where they are, so we can get to know better your editor's skills. But to say that only because you have chosen a nickname, that makes you not anonymous, is a little bit overstatement, no? As to the fact that you are the one, who added the references to the news sources, it's true; however you might have missed that there was a source request since October for the only other referred news piece, and the normal thing would have been to delete it, not to expand it with more information. I noticed this inconsistency in the article due to the fact that you started adding non-relevant references to outside media. So, I am thankful for your contribution, which definitely helped make the article better — and better doesn't necessarily mean longer. If any of the news stories you have provided gives new information about Mrs. Bokova's work, then you could include the relevant part in one of the existing sections, and add the source. However, looking through these articles, I don't see anything new, which is not already covered in the article.

(P.S. If you know what COI is, then you wouldn't have used it, as you know it's not me, who should prove I don't have a COI, but you, since you are the one, who used the tag.) Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 19:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Veni, quick question? Are you still part of the Bulgarian General Assembly for the UN? as stated here? http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N14/718/15/PDF/N1471815.pdf?OpenElement If so, you do have COI issue just based on this, who knows what else. I will prove it, it may take me some time, but I have my connections and my sources too. Yes, I have tried to make some changes to the page about Bokova and no, I am not an expert, but every time myself or others try to add any info that is showing a different side of Bokova or different info about her, you and a few other anonymous users delete it with lame remarks. The news articles that you removed are very relevant and is not up to you or me to decide if they are or not. You have 17 edits on her page too, mine are minor - Minister, vs. acting... etc. This has opened my eyes about who you are and who you support. What are you going to get out of this? This is now recorded and time will show, but please don't think we are idiots.

Oops, Veni, you have made a few more edits than 17. Sorry, I misspoke (Special:Contributions/Вени Марковски)

The above edits are done by User:Vassko. Please, note that this page is for talks on the main article, and not for discussions between users, if you want to say something, you can use my own page User_talk:Вени_Марковски. Thank you for your understanding. Also, it's appropriate to sign your edits - there's a special field below the box you use to edit. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2016 (UTC).

Funny how reverse psychology works, now I have what I needed for my research..vassko (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Ok, that has been going rather long enough. Threatening other users by mentioning that "you have connections" is not ok. Shaming fellow editors, even indirectly, over social media is also not ok. Hard-line right-wing sources such as The American are simply not reliable. I do not know what personal issue you might have with Irina Bokova, but articles as this one fall within certain guidelines. If you do not wish to respect those guidelines and your fellow contributors, please, do not bother to edit here. Thank you.--Laveol ^T 23:12, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

And further warnings. sockpuppets are not appreciated. Editing while logged out in order to continue the edit-war you started is not ok and might lead to a permanent block. --Laveol ^T 15:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I've made couple of suggestions on his page, but it seems the young gentleman is too busy editing the article, and has not looked into the way Wikipedia is being edited. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Please don't take words out of content here. "Threatening other users..." is BS, and you know it. An editor like Veni should know that he can't make statements about Bokova (https://www.facebook.com/VeniMarkovskiPublic/posts/1018564914833878:0) and her family on social media and later edit out all other references that indicate a very different information about her and her past.

He edited again in her page the (ad intern) out and left it as if she was a Minister... (minor edit, right), ok Acting is still there. He took references to her Political party BSP in the header, maybe he knows better if he is a personal friend or also a BPS party member, I don't know, but this again asks the question why this is edited out. Just because you don't find the coverage of the new American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_American) to be reliable, that does not mean that this is not a good coverage of politics and news from US perspective.vassko (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Dear Vassko, let me kindly remind you that this here is the talk page for Mrs. Bokova, and not a discussion forum, where you can expect comments on your Ad hominem attacks against another editor. But of course the relevant content is no problem to be addressed: in the article it says under her photo that she was acting minister, including the dates (thanks for finding the exact dates, btw). You may have not realized that you have not edited the right way this part of the infobox, therefore it was in red color; but now it's correct - you can dig in the history and find out who made the right correction, if you are interested. As for her alleged membership in the Bulgarian Socialist Party, a claim that as far as I can see you have introduced on December 28, that is of course a Loaded question, and it is not the other editors, who should prove she is not a member, but you, who should prove she is. Since you are the one claiming something about her, then you should make the effort to find the evidence to support your claim. But, please, keep in mind it may be a very difficult task: as a Bulgarian career diplomat and an ambassador, she has been subject to the Law for diplomatic service, which says that no Bulgarian diplomat can be a member of any political party. Many editors have spent many hours to try to make this article follow certain guidelines, and before editing it, perhaps you should use the sandbox. I left on your page some instructions how you could do that. Thank you. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 18:58, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Minister Job title

TO ALL EDITORS, Some of you keep changing her Minister title. The job title of Minister needs to be edited and ad intern needs to be added. This is how she has updated her UNESCO profile after the recent inquiries about her work history. (http://www.unesco.org/new/en/unesco/about-us/who-we-are/director-general/biography/) which shows - (a.i.). On top, the wikipedia page dedicated to real Bulgarian Ministers does not even lists her as one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs_(Bulgaria)). My brother's great grandfather Atanas Burov was a real Minister...vassko (talk) 19:37, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. As you can see in the text of the article, it clearly states Ms Bokova worked at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Bulgaria, starting in 1977 as a third secretary and eventually becoming acting minister (Ad interim) between November 13, 1996 – February 13, 1997. In the infobox we are using the acting, rather than ad interim, following the general understanding, commonly seen at Wikipedia for governmental officials (e.g. see Acting Prime Minister, Acting governor, etc. Veni Markovski | Вени Марковски (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Why is Bokova not listed as a Minister at all on the official Web Site of the Bulgarian government (Министерство на външните работи) - МИНИСТРИ НА ВЪНШНИТЕ РАБОТИ НА БЪЛГАРИЯ (http://www.mfa.bg/bg/pages/250/index.html)? This needs to be addressed and in the meantime, her job title may need to be updated/chaged...

This is also published here" "Ms. Irina Bokova has not been voted for minister of foreign affairs by the Bulgarian parliament, as stipulated by the Constitution. From a legal point of view Ms Irina Bokova has been 'acting minister of foreign affairs of the Republic of Bulgaria' and she should not be entitled otherwise", says the statement of the Foreign Ministry in Sofia. The official list by the Foreign Ministry does not name Bokova as an office holder." http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article150296745/Frontrunner-for-top-UN-job-exaggerates-biography.html vassko (talk) 21:05, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

References

<references>