Talk:Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali

Untitled

Keep - He is an extremily well known Islamic scholar and translator of the most popular English translation of the Noble Qur'an (Hilali-Khan), along with Muhammad Muhsin Khan. AWT (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I too can attest to that - amongst Muslims, Dr. Hilali is very well known. I think the trick here will be finding English language material on him, but I believe this can be done with time. I think this has the potential to be a great article. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

A few years later and I'm just now getting to this. Hopefully, this article will be beneficial and informative for the reader soon - in it's current state, it's an uncited mess. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Almost another year again, and I have actually found quite a bit of good stuff. Most of it is in English, some in Arabic. Per WP:NONENG, I ought to put some of this stuff in a footnote. I am fluent in Arabic and can do so, but I'm not too sure how to make footnotes - some assistance would be appreciated. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

For MezzoMezzo

MezzoMezzo keeps adding back unsourced and badly sourced data into this article. I made the following legitimate edits:

Edit 1 I got rid of this: Hilali was born in Rissani, Morocco, near the oasis of Tafilalt in a valley near Sajalmasah. His birth year according to the Islamic calendar was 1311

because it was sourced from this: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/authors/taqi-ud-din-hilali.htm

How the heck is this even remotely reliable.

Edit 2 I got rid of this: coressponding to 1893 on the Gregorian calendar

because it was sourced from: http://www.alhiwar.org/en/content/view/19/2/.

This link doesn't even work.

Edit 3 I got rid of this: Hilali memorized the Qur'an by heart when he was twelve years old, making him a Hafiz. When he first delved into Islamic studies, Hilali was a Sufi of the Tijaniyyah Order. After his religious studies, Hilali took the view that Sufism in general and the Tijani order in particular were far from orthodox Sunni practice due to superstitious and even polythesitic beliefs.

which was sourced from: http://www.alhiwar.org/en/content/view/19/2/

This link doesn't even work.

Edit 4 I removed this:

then returned to Morocco that same year to finish his Bachelor of Arts degree at the University of al-Karaouine. Responding to a call by Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna for Muslim intellectuals of Morocco to share ideas with those elsewhere, Hilali wrote a number of letters to the organization's magazine which were intercepted by authorities of the French colonial empire. Arrested and held for three days without charge, Hilali's release was secured and he fled Morocco. Shortly after he escaped the country, he was sentenced to death in absentia for subversive activity against the French protectorate of Morocco.

as no source has been provided.

Edit 5 I removed this:

After performing the pilgrimage to Mecca, Hilali moved to India in order to pursue Hadith studies. While there, he worked as head of Arabic studies at Darul-uloom Nadwatul Ulama in Lucknow. After completing his study in India, Hilali spent three years in Iraq before being personally invited by first King of Saudi Arabia Ibn Saud to teach in the Muslim holy land. Hilali taught and led the prayer in Medina at Al-Masjid an-Nabawi, Islam's second holiest site, for two years and taught in Mecca at Masjid al-Haram, Islam's most holy site, for one more year. as no source has been provided.

Edit 6 I removed this:

After finishing his duration of teaching in Mecca, Hilali enrolled in Baghdad University; he also served as an assistant professor while there. Hilali returned briefly to India for a second time, and enrolled in the University of Lucknow as both a student and a teacher, the most prominent of his own being Abul Hasan Ali Hasani Nadwi. Shakib Arslan, who was a close friend of Hilali which was sourced from: http://www.alhiwar.org/en/content/view/19/2/

This link doesn't even work.

Edit 7 I removed this:

He transferred to Humboldt University of Berlin, where he earned his doctoral degree in Arabic literature in 1940.

as no source has been provided.

Edit 8 I removed this:

Toward the end of World War II, Hilali left Germany for French Morocco, which was rocked with calls for independence. He returned to Iraq in 1947, once again taking up a teaching position at the university in Baghdad. After the 14 July Revolution, Hilali returned to a now-independent Kingdom of Morocco one more time. He was appointed to a teaching position at Mohammed V University in Rabat in 1959 and later at a branch in Fes which was sourced from: http://www.alhiwar.org/en/content/view/19/2/

This link doesn't even work.

Edit 9 I removed this:

In 1968, Saudi Arabian Grand Mufti Abd al-Aziz ibn Baz wrote to Hilali requesting that he take up a teaching position at Islamic University of Madinah, of which Bin Baz was the president. Hilali accepted, living in Saudi Arabia for one more time between 1968 and 1974.

as no source has been provided.

Edit 10 I removed this: Views on Hilali within the Muslim world itself - specifically within Sunni Islam- have been positive.

as no source has been provided. In addition, I added a whole set of quotes from academics which strongly criticize his work which was removed without explanation.

Edit 11

I removed this: Hilali also translated the book al-Lulu wa al-Marjan to English during the period of his stay at the Islamic University of Madinah.

as no source has been provided.

Edit 12 I added that Hilali was a Salafi as this has been explicitly stated in Henri Lauzière, M.A., The Evolution of the Salafiyya in the Twentieth Century through the life and thought of Taqi al-Din al-Hilali, iii. which is a Phd dissertation in Georgetown University. Why was this removed?

Conclusion My edits consist of:

• Removing unsourced material
• Removing material taken from badly sourced websites or websites that are broken.
• Adding material taken from a Phd thesis.

They should all therefore be reinstated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.116.25 (talk) 13:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad you finally responded - this does make some edits rather clear. There are some things I take issue with and I'll explain why in a moment, but overall it's a great development to have all this here. For the record, I reverted your edits because a number of them seemed suspect, and you do appear to be pushing a certain POV via wording (which may not be intentional). However, the fact that you do have a basis for your edits is a good sign that we have improve the article and move past the disagreement.

I'll start by saying that I understand Edits 4, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 12. Edit 12 was removed as part of the package of your edits; you obviously have a strong POV on the subject of this article and articles connected to him, and when you did edit war (I don't want to start an argument since we're cooperating now, but initially that's what you did) I assumed this was another case of an anonymous editor not taking things seriously. I understand now that you do take this seriously, so I'm sorry for my initial brusque reaction.

Regarding Edits 2, 3 and 6, then I would posit that they should be reinstated per Wikipedia:Link rot until we find a substitute. Keep in mind that Wikipedia:Link rot is an essay and not a policy, so I can't reinstate it in good faith if you're opposed; I will simply state that I think it ought to be back in while we find a replacement or a cached version or something.

Regarding Edit 1, then that absolutely should be included per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. In this context, it's simple biographical data which isn't controversial, and while the source is to a private publishing house, there is little to no risk of them intentionally lying about the subject's place and date of birth. I don't think you would even assert that, and thus removing it seems a bit silly.

Regarding Edit 10, then I agree that it is a peacock term that should be removed with the understanding that no value judgment ought to be made - you've shown that a handful (that's used literally here) Western and Westernized Muslims have criticisms which are published in reliable sources, so it would be better just to note any criticism or praise and move on.

Overall, I'm thrilled that you were able to take the time to write this despite us having a somewhat heated disagreement previously. Thanks for putting in the time; I hope that we can cooperate to improve things here. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Edits 4, 5, 7, 9, 11

I have applied Edits 4, 5, 7, 9, 11.

Edits 10

I have applied Edit 10