Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1000–1301)

Kniezsa's map

"Although the historical study of place-names is not practised to the same extent in all countries, it is a recognized branch of historiography. It encompasses the etymology of geographical names as well as cultural and chronological variations in the naming of places. To facilitate their study of Hungarian place-names, István Kniezsa and Géza Bárczi developed an analytical framework that blends etymology, typology, and chronology. The validity of this triple approach has been amply demonstrated, thanks not only to the expertise of the two scholars but also to the peculiarity of Hungarian toponymy, which is readily distinguishable from that of any other culture. Most of the early Hungarian toponyms are derived from the names of people, clans, and ethnic groups, or from occupations, and used in the nominative case singular (e.g. Árpád, Megyer, Cseh [Czech], Ács [carpenter]). This type of toponymy appears in the earliest documents, dating from around 1000 AD. The pattern holds well into the 13th century — until the 1220s in western Hungary, and the 1270s in the eastern parts, including Transylvania..."(László Makkai, TRANSYLVANIA IN THE MEDIEVAL HUNGARIAN KINGDOM (896–1526), IN: Köpeczi Béla (General Editor), HISTORY OF TRANSYLVANIA Volume I. From the Beginnings to 1606, Distributed by Columbia University Press, New York, 2001, ISBN 0-88033-479-7)"

Kniezsa's map is still cited in scientific papers. It is NOT outdated. Fakirbakir (talk) 09:35, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussion is already [here].Ditinili (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

You ignore Hungarian academics!!!! Fakirbakir (talk) 09:56, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

And he/she also ignores his/her own proposal [1]. Borsoka (talk) 18:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

My collegues, I do not "ignore Hungarian academics". I requested for sources and they were not provided even after several months. I also made a constructive recommendation how to fix the pronlem, but the uploader of the map did nothing to fix it, he did not followed it and he did not (after several months) did not provide any feedback. And when I wrote what is already properly sourced (the map is not compliant with the modern research) you have tried to revert it, to reformulate and to relativise it and to present it as some opinion of the Slovak historian instead of the serious research result. What you have not tried is to provide proper sources for your opinions.Ditinili (talk) 19:24, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Upload your own map to represent the "Slovak scholarly POV" on Wikimedia Commons. Makkai's quote (above) is more than enough to prove that Kniezsa's study is not an outdated fringe theory.... "did nothing to fix it" ---> After our conversation I tried to fix the problem.[2]. Anyway I have no idea why you didn't like my last contribution [3]. Fakirbakir (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

No, it is not "more than enough". We have already discussed this on 16:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC).[4] "Laszlo Makkai: died in 1989, he can hardly react on results of the modern research or to take them into account. Not a reliable source for challenging current state in archeology. More, the quoted sentence is also only a general statement and the book is about Transylvania, not Slovakia." Your "fix" unfortunately did not mention any criticism and you did rather opposite - you whitewashed any critical view [5] with a very poor reasoning that this is your map and you are not obliged to preserve them in the description. I do not like your "last contribution " because again, you did not provided any new source, only relativized research results. I persist in opinion that it must be stated very clearly that in the case of Slovakia, the later research refuted this theory.Ditinili (talk) 06:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Kniezsa's views are not criticized only by Slovak authors, but also by the Hungarian historian Gyula Kristó in his paper "THE PEOPLES OF HUNGARY IN THE DAYS OF SAINT STEPHEN". Gyula Kristó's paper provides a criticism of Istvan Kniezsa's paper published in 1938 on the question of ethnicity in Hungary in the 11th century. The author states that Kniezsa, despite his own intentions, depicted the peoples of the late Arpád era, i.e., 12th and the beginning of the 13th centuries, instead of the early Arpád era, i.e., 11th century.. (the quote is from Századok, Volume 134, Issues 1-3, Akadémiai Kiadó, 2000 - Hungary) 213.229.64.182 (talk) 06:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Kniezsa's map has nothing to do with archaeology, he was a Slavist, his work is based on toponyms. His view is not unanimously accepted by historians, however his theory is still widely used today and a basic theory of Hungarian population history. Fakirbakir (talk) 16:48, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, only your statement without any source. Basic theory of Hungarian population history => [6] Ditinili (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

You should learn some Hungarian population history...."The verifiable name layers from the early period of the conquest were subjected to study in Hungary from the 1930s and 1940s, resulting in early historical place-name typologies (Moór 1936: 110–117, Kniezsa 1938, 1943, 1944, 1960, Kertész 1939: 33–39, 67–77, Kristó 1976), the results of which are still to this day largely accepted by the research community without reservation."[7][8]

It seems that this "acceptance without reservation" has serious limits, because the list contains also the author (Kristó) who demonstrably criticized Kniezsa [9] and on the same page there is also a very sharp refusal of Kniezsa's conclusions from another Hungarian author. Your second source (however it is easy to demonstrate that some of "Hungarian" areas were ethnically mixed) references to the 15th century, not to the 11th. Ditinili (talk) 00:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Pre-Christian Hungarians

The term "pagans", used in the Background section to describe the pre-Christian Hungarians, is vague. A more specific label would be helpful, because "pagan" has been used to describe an awfully broad collection of cultures and religions. Folklore1 (talk) 20:21, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Folklore1, thank you for your edits and your above comment. I think that "pagan Hungarians" is the proper term - this is applied by most historians (for instance, Engel). Borsoka (talk) 04:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Peer review: Kingdom of Hungary (1000-1301)

All comments, suggestions are welcome here. Thank you for your time. Borsoka (talk) 02:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Which style of English?

I am about three-quarters of the way through the article, copy-editing in response to a request at WP:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests, and I see both British and American date styles and British and American spelling. Usually, I go back to the first version of the article after the stub to see what style was first used. However, I see that there may have been a split, so I don't know at what point I should be looking. It doesn't matter to me which style is used. Could someone please decide the style and let me know? Then I will edit for consistency. Corinne (talk) 01:56, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Corinne, thank you for your hard work. I think American date styles and American spelling are preferred by more users, so I also prefer them. Have a nice day! Borsoka (talk) 13:21, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Borsoka That's fine with me, but I'm not sure the decision should be based on what we prefer; it is usually based on the style used in the first version after the original stub, or the connection between the subject of the article and a particular country. See WP:ENGVAR. I could not find the original stub, but I found the point right after the article was split, and in that version, American date style was used, so I guess that style is fine. Corinne (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Edits by IP

Dear anon, please summarize the reasons of this edit here ([10]), because there are two editors who do not understand your concern. Thank you for your cooperation in advance. Borsoka (talk) 15:36, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit by IP

Anon, would you summarize why do you think that all attempts by the Holy Roman Emperors to expand their authority over Hungary were unsuccessful if Henry III managed to put Peter on the throne in 1044 and Solomon in 1063? Borsoka (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Was Hungary part of HRE? or Vassal of HRE Emperors?

Can the HR.Emperors conquer it from Pozsony to Transylvania?. So their attempts remained unsuccessful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.55.251 (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you really say Peter Orseolo, the vassal of the HRE Henry III, did not rule whole Hungary ("from Pozsony to Transylvania") between 1144 and 1146. What is the source of your suggestion? Borsoka (talk) 20:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Again, during the reginPeter Orseolo there were a civil war, there were Hungarian forces on both side, so it was not a clear Hungary vs Germany war, but civil war.

High medieval German Emperors proved to be weak to fight against a politically united Hungary as a whole country.

Or do you deny the following facts?

Just see the conflicts of Pure Hungary VS. Germany line-up.

• 1030 German defeat Hungarian king: Stephen I, German Emperor: Konrad II
• 1031 German defeat Hungarian king: Stephen I, German Emperor: Konrad II
• 1051 German defeat Hungarian king: Andrew I, German Emperor: Henry IV
• 1053 German defeat Hungarian king: Andrew I, German Emperor: Henry IV
• 1074 German defeat Hungarian king: Solomon I, German Emperor: Henry IV

Sorry, I do not understand what you want to say. What is the subject of the debate? Borsoka (talk) 11:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

The subject is the unsuccessful attempts of HR. Emperors to make Hungary as vassal state of their Empire. They proved to be weak for that.

Based on a reliable source, the article says that Peter accepted the emperor's suzerainty. Is there a reliable source stating that he did not accept the emperor's suzerainty, or that there was an other king during Peter's rule who did not accept the emperor's suzerainty? Borsoka (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

IS there any reliable source which state that Peter used only the Emperor's forces? No, it was a civil war. The Emperor simply used the anarchic situation as his advantage. Second: The gathered army of the Emperor's army did not dare to cross the border to help King Peter, which is not strange, because medieval Holy Roman Emperors had not huge armies. We can cite all wars of medieval Holy Roman emperors (with the estimations of their armies from books of academic scholars ), and it is clearer than the sun, that the medieval HR. Emperors were unable to mobilize large armies, thus their influence was weak. So Emperor Henry III had to realize , that he lost within 1y and some months all of his influence in Hungary. No huge army ===> no power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.55.251 (talk) 17:38, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I highly appreciate your research, but you did not cite a single source stating either that Peter did not accept Henry's suzerainty or that Peter was not the sole monarch of Hungary at that time. Borsoka (talk) 18:01, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

When Peter lost the power in 1046, the imperial army did not dare to cross the border.