Talk:CHC Helikopter Service Flight 241

Registration

Sources that are not useable on Wikipedia claim the aircraft involved is LN-OJF. Can we find a useable source to verify this please? Mjroots (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

BBC to the rescue! Mjroots (talk) 21:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Summary

The summary states that the helicopter crash landed. I think it would be better suited to state that it crashed. Crash landing implies some sort of successful accident avoidance or mitigation. Sources later in the article state that the main rotor completely detached from the helicopter, which would cause a complete loss of control. MordeKyle (talk) 19:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

 Done - I agree, and have amended the infobox and lede. Initial reports were of a crash landing, now apparent that it was a crash. Mjroots (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Extent of grounding

The Norwegian CAA states that Airbus Helicopters has grounded all EC225LPs worldwide, with a link to Airbus SIN 3030-S-00. However Airbus SIN 3030-S-00 is somewhat vague, stating that "we are allied with the decision taken" to ground commercially-operated EC225LPs, while also stating that the document affects AS332Bs, -Cs, -Fs, -Ls and -Ms; all models of AS532 Cougar; and EC725APs as well. (The Norwegian CAA statement is here; SIN 3030's text is identical to this Release, with models affected listed in the SIN's header.) So the question is, can we take it as read that all of the aforementioned models (presumably sharing the same components) are grounded worldwide? YSSYguy (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

That's my interpretaton too. Have added the info to the article. Mjroots (talk) 05:03, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Here's a secondary source from The Guradian, although it just says "type". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC) ... not that one can ever trust The Grauniad, of course.

Technically Airbus Helicopters (AH) are not in a position to 'ground' the type, that is up to the individual national aviation authorities, however what they (AH) are able to do is to agree with the Norwegian CAA decision to ground the type within Norway and to recommend all other operators elsewhere cease flying them until such time as the cause of the accident is found and its implications for other helicopters of that type assessed. This they appear to have done.

When a type is officially 'grounded' by a national aviation authority the order has the force of law and this makes it unlawful to fly or otherwise operate the type for hire or profit until the grounding order is lifted. This is to protect the public, i.e., the passengers that may be carried, and to a lesser extent, members of the public on the ground.

An operator may himself/herself 'ground' his/her fleet of a type if he/she has suspicions about its safety, and Freddie Laker in fact voluntarily 'grounded' his entire DC-10 fleet on hearing of the 1972 Paris Accident, some time before the type was officially grounded in the UK. BOAC did the same - with de Havilland concurring - after the first Comet accident, although as the cause took some time to find, they later resumed flights thinking the cause was something other than it actually was, and that it had been fixed in the interim. After the second accident the type was then officially grounded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 11:12, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

As the official source" says "... put all commercial EC225LP passenger flights on hold", then I guess we should reflect that wording. I've added quote marks in the text, as I think it's a technical term, and I can't find any definition for on hold. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, I wasn't criticising the text, merely trying to clarify the position, Re: Airbus Helicopters. They have no authority to stop operators using the aircraft. That is up to the national aviation authorities in each country, which they do by issuing a grounding notice/order. All Airbus Helicopters (or any other aircraft manufacturer) can do is recommend operators cease flying the type until further notice - which is, in fact, what they appear to have done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, one wonders why the Safety information notice doesn't just say "recommend all operators cease flying the type until further notice". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The notice is probably written by a publicity department, so their choice of wording used may be aimed at the general public.

Sorry - can't help with the red links. I only know some basic principles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 11:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Such a notice would definitely not be written by a publicity department, and would definitely not be written for the benefit of the general public - it would be sent as an Alert to maintenance organisations and operators, as evidenced by the two logos in the "For the attention of" box in the top left. However I am at a loss to explain the vagueness of it, "on hold" is not a technical term that I am aware of. I was aware when I posted earlier that Airbus Helicopters is unable to ground aircraft, I was trying to ask "what should we do", guess I wasn't clear enough. I also think that the SIN affects the other Models that I earlier listed above as well. I think the gist of the SIN is "an EC225 lost its main rotor, all you people operating and maintaining EC225 and derivative aircraft should consider ceasing operations until we know why". As yet there appear to be no grounding orders in place for Australia, Canada or the USA. YSSYguy (talk) 12:23, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

We already have an article for NOTAM. Perhaps we need to add something about manufacturer's safety instructions, either there or perhaps at Aviation safety? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

The Notice is in-effect an initial advisory from the manufacturer to cease flying the type until further notice pending more information from the accident investigation. At this stage, this is the only, and most prudent - losing a complete main rotor head with all the blades is non-trivial and non-survivable - thing that they can do. The vagueness of the wording may be due to translation, as, I would suspect, it would originally have been written in French.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 12:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Um , the Norewgian luftfartstilsynet.no parent site for our pdf source is quite unequivocal saying "Airbus grounds EC225LP worldwide". I can't find any on-line version in French. Martinevans123 (talk)

Unfortunately they are wrong - "issued a safety directive which grounds all machines worldwide." - for the reasons I stated earlier. The Notice itself doesn't actually do this. It is merely a recommendation to operators elsewhere taken in conjunction with the Norwegian CAA's decision to ground the type in Norway. An operator elsewhere would be extremely unwise to ignore the Notice and recommendation, however.

Airbus Helicopters IIRC is based in France and so I presume the Notice would have been written in French first and then translated into English for the English PDF version. But that's just a guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.100.255 (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Manufacturer name

The machine is listed on a (non-RS) website as being manufactured in 2009, and someone has added to the article that it was manufactured by Airbus Helicopters. However Airbus Helicopters did not exist in 2009. YSSYguy (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Good point. The company is owned by Airbus only now. I think someone was probably trying to find a compromise with the anon IP editor who has kept adding "Airbus" to every instance of the helicopter type name. Martinevans123 (talk)