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:::Agree with TaivoLinguist, with the added question of whether your Google search reveals usage by the BBC or usage on BBC sites. A large number of Ukrainian nationalists could post on comment threads and such there using "Kyiv", but that should not count towards BBC usage.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
:::Agree with TaivoLinguist, with the added question of whether your Google search reveals usage by the BBC or usage on BBC sites. A large number of Ukrainian nationalists could post on comment threads and such there using "Kyiv", but that should not count towards BBC usage.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
::::I've made several changes to the sentence in question to answer the Anon IP's concerns. 1) I reworded the sentence to "X '''''prefers''''' 'Kiev'". 2) I linked to the style guides of both the BBC and The Economist which specifically state that "Kiev" is to be used. 3) I added a search of the New York Times for the last 12 months that shows "Kiev" both as the byline and in text (a corresponding search for "Kyiv" only yields the title of a book twice). This should clarify the situation. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|Taivo]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 17:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
::::I've made several changes to the sentence in question to answer the Anon IP's concerns. 1) I reworded the sentence to "X '''''prefers''''' 'Kiev'". 2) I linked to the style guides of both the BBC and The Economist which specifically state that "Kiev" is to be used. 3) I added a search of the New York Times for the last 12 months that shows "Kiev" both as the byline and in text (a corresponding search for "Kyiv" only yields the title of a book twice). This should clarify the situation. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|Taivo]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist|talk]]) 17:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
:::::That is perfectly acceptable. Thanks. P.S: it may seem quibbling for UK or US citizen but question is actually important in Ukraine. [[Special:Contributions/93.73.62.38|93.73.62.38]] ([[User talk:93.73.62.38|talk]]) 18:04, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
* I think this sentence "Kiev is also based on the old Ukrainian language spelling of the city name and was used by Ukrainians and their ancestors from the time of Kievan Rus until only about the last century." in the "Name" section should be removed. Except for the statement itself, there aren't any proofs for this claim in the reference article. [[User:Dotoner|Dotoner]] ([[User talk:Dotoner|talk]]) 17:51, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
* I think this sentence "Kiev is also based on the old Ukrainian language spelling of the city name and was used by Ukrainians and their ancestors from the time of Kievan Rus until only about the last century." in the "Name" section should be removed. Except for the statement itself, there aren't any proofs for this claim in the reference article. [[User:Dotoner|Dotoner]] ([[User talk:Dotoner|talk]]) 17:51, 3 October 2016 (UTC)


Revision as of 18:04, 3 October 2016

Template:Vital article

Former good article nomineeKyiv was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 21, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
May 23, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 25, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2016

Kyiv is the only legal way to call Ukrainian capital. Please obey the law. Remove the russian version or put it separate. Bodukmbm (talk) 08:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Talk:Kiev/naming--Ymblanter (talk) 08:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion depicts few blind followers of the wrong spelling being in power on Wikipedia and not accepting opinion of millions of Ukrainians, that are trying to protect their language and dignity. If the article is renamed, then more and more people in the world will start using the correct version - Kyiv. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bodukmbm (talk • contribs) 09:10, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I will wait for another blind Wikipedia follower to reclose this request. It is unlikely that you can find anyone but Wikipedia followers here.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This was discussed at length here and it was agreed that "while "Kyiv" may be the officially recognized transliteration, "Kiev" is the most commonly recognizable name in the English language"
We are not bound by any "legal way" and are not "breaking the law" - we use the common name in English - Kiev it is and Kiev it will stay. - Arjayay (talk) 09:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is Kyiv, and Kyiv it will stay. You'll get used to it. I just wonder what threshold you are going to use that the most commonly recognizable name is now KYIV. I bet you've got used that there no longer is Bombay --Ajvanari (talk) 09:04, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"we use the common name in English" - that's where you're mistaken, you're using the commonly misspelled version of the word. I'll give you an example. If 1 billion of Indian people start calling Russia let's say "Pussia", will you change the name in Wiki from Russia to Pussia just because google received 1 billion hits on Pussia?!?! Of course no, because you know the correct spelling of it. Same here. Don't follow, even worse don't support and spread the wrong information on Wikipedia. Millions of people are viewing its articles, it has a huge impact on their mind. If you change the name to the correct one - Kyiv, you'll see that this word will be most commonly used as the only right one. - Bodukmbm (talk) 09:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Stop discussing it here, go to the page you were pointed at. If you unclose the request one more time, your account will be blocked for disruptive editing.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:54, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What a stupidity. It is officially Kyiv, what do you mean under "common"? Common by who? By you maybe? Is it you who decides what is common and what is not? First search on google gives proper answer on quora pointing to US Board of Geographic Names that makes decision on proper use of geographical names, here's the official site of organization. All documents in the whole world uses that name, is this not common for you? Facebook and googlemaps too? If you want to leave as you say "common" name, than you can refer to it in article, but name should be the official name and than - (also known as Kiev) for example. What an absurd. This is either stupidity either some kind of chauvinism which is crazy actually. The person who closed article editing and denying to hear common sense arguments has to be removed from moderating position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandric (talk • contribs) 21:14, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It would have been great if you actually have read our policies before posting here your valuable opinion.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:19, 28 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The CIA World Fact Book, Lonely Planet and others use uses Kyiv. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.146.152 (talk) 04:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2016

Please correct phrase "Most major English-language news sources like the BBC[27] continue to use Kiev." in the Name section to something like "Most major English-language news sources like the BBC are using both Kyiv[1] and Kiev[2] spellings."

Examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03vgz9t (Kyiv) http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-37319139 (Kiev) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29686752 (both in same sentence)

You know guys that's why everybody keeps complaining. I'm livid. Ostap1010 (talk) 12:50, 8 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're livid? Perhaps you need to get a real life. Your examples don't really prove what you say they do. The second and third examples clearly show that the BBC uses "Kiev" fairly consistently. Even when the quoted material uses "Kyiv", they correct it in brackets to "Kiev" for clarification. That's not a case of using both. It's exactly the same as quoting someone saying "I think that German Chancellor Mackerel [Merkel] is a good person." That does not mean that they accept "Mackerel" as an alternate spelling of "Merkel". It only means that their source used "Mackerel" and they must be accurate in using their source material. There's simply no evidence that they accept either "Kiev" or "Kyiv". It's evidence that they consistently use "Kiev". The BBC style guide is clear and unambiguous. --Taivo (talk) 12:37, 2 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First of all why didn't you mention my first example? Please give me your real-life, old-school explanation of that phenomena. Why BBC with clear and unambiguous style guide explicitly uses Kyiv without any brackets or other punctuation symbols intended to adduce your version?
There is a plausible version I could give you. In real life BBC style guide means as much as Ukraine government decree. It seems the very same BBC journalists supposed to follow 'clear and unambiguous' rules are breaking them. Just type "Kyiv" and "Kiev" in BBC search field. You'll get a bunch of results from both queries. That's the evidence, isn't it?
I'm not arguing "Kyiv" or "Kiev" spelling. What I'm arguing is "Most major English-language news sources like the BBC[27] continue to use Kiev." Verification of that statement failed in the paragraph above. "Continue to use" statement is false while there are multiple systematic evidences that both spellings are in use. You should use "both spellings are in use" instead. If and only if you have statistics you could emphasize "predominantly "Kiev". That's basic scientific verification (Do not confuse with Wikipedia verification. Please consult [3] if you lack expertise in that field). That's why my case is completely relevant. That's not linguistics. That's sheer logic.
And that's why I am livid. Moreover shaking.93.73.62.38 (talk) 01:14, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If they use both, then (by definition) they "continue to use Kiev".--Khajidha (talk) 01:17, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and your first example doesn't mention the city itself, only an airport. The name of the airport is consistently given with the Kyiv spelling, but that has no bearing on usage of the simple city name. --Khajidha (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
More BBC 'Kyiv' only examples[4][5][6][7][8][9]. BBC 'Kyiv' press-release[10]. BBC comments from real-life people with Anglo-Saxon names and surnames signed from 'Kyiv'[11][12]. CNN examples[13][14][15][16][17][18][19].
Cream of the crop:
"No, this is the eco-conscious face of British diplomacy, where our ambassador to Ukraine blogs that he has been helping to pick up litter in a park in Kiev (now spelled Kyiv) as part of Earth Day."[20]
"It was a great honour for us and we were met at Kyiv (formerly Kiev) airport by television and film crews and a choir who sang for us in national dress in the arrival lounge!"[21]
How does that goes with Merkel [Mackerel] and airport?
Current article edition states "BBC continue to use Kiev". That's false. BBC uses both spelling on case-per-case basis. Which depends on willingness of discrete journalist to conduct with BBC style guide, tradition or whatever.
I'm sure that fact should be reflected in article since current edition implies that literally everyone but government spells 'Kiev'. That's wrong. Both spellings are in use.
What is really outrageous that article specifically mentioned BBC as an example of 'Kiev'-only use. Simple verification attempt (typing 'Kyiv' in BBC search field) fails. Shame.
Since article is protected I'm asking members with editing permission to carry on.93.73.62.38 (talk) 11:48, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, if they are using both then it is still true that they "continue to use Kiev". The statement does not say that they "use only Kiev". Also there are several problems with your list of sources.
Your source number 4 does not refer to the city of Kiev, but to the Kyiv Oblast. These are different things, and the Oblast (those few times it is mentioned in English) is often spelled that way.
Your source 7 is not a "Kyiv only" source as you state, the map clearly uses Kiev.
Your source 8 uses Kyiv in the body, but is given the byline of "Reporting by Mukul Devichand, Ravin Sampat, Tse Yin Lee and BBC Monitoring Kiev."
Similarly, your source 9 is filed " By Lucy Ash BBC News, Kiev"
Seems to me that BBC generally uses Kiev, but some individuals do not. And that's leaving aside cases of Kyiv in larger names (such as the oblast or the airport) as they are separate terms from the city name itself. --Khajidha (talk) 13:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, "continue to use Kiev" point taken. It would be still valid while single "Kiev" statement could be found on BBC.
I could agree as well with with your conclusion - BBC mostly uses "Kiev". But other spelling could be found as well. That's what I'm arguing.93.73.62.38 (talk) 16:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PS - as for your "Cream of the crop" the first is specifically from an AMBASSADOR IN UKRAINE, he/she is diplomatically required to use that form and the second is the personal usage of a musician, not an example of BBC usage. And the BBC comments are examples of personal usage (and, in one case, a possible joke). Or do you think that "Cambs" is BBC official usage? But the most important point is the one I made first in the last post, "continue to use Kiev" does not imply "only use Kiev". --Khajidha (talk) 13:37, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again point taken. And again but.
Non-government people are using "Kyiv" spelling in everyday life. Musicians, government-affiliated journalists, commentators, jokers. I just want to make sure that fact is admitted and properly reflected in article.93.73.62.38 (talk) 16:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those BBC selections are misleading and cherry-picked. If you check the BBC site, there are 10,800 results for Kiev [1], and only 3,230 results for Kyiv [2]. Even if you check only the past six years, there are 509 results for Kiev [3], and only 107 results for Kyiv [4]. -- Softlavender (talk) 13:07, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Those BBC selections are evidences.
Your Google-BBC statistics is brilliant. We could build on it.
I'd like to state my position once more. I'm just arguing that 'Kyiv' is also in use. Maybe marginal. Maybe 20% to 40% of 'Kiev' according to your statistics. But it actually exists.
All I want is reflection of that fact in article.93.73.62.38 (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is reflected in the article. Accidentally, in the first line.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:43, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Our argument is about the validity of "BBC continue using Kiev" statement which happened to be last line in Name section. That statement is false. One could say "according to Google search results BBC are using 20% to 40% (or whatever) "Kyiv" spelling". One could say "BBC style guides recommends "Kiev" but sometimes alternative spelling is used". One could certainly say "both variants are used". But not "continue using" without any references that alternative spelling could be found as well.
Current article edition implies "Kyiv" spelling is used in government-related documents only. That position of your community is unambiguously reflected in article. From what we said during last hours one could conclude that "Kyiv" spelling is at use at real life as well. Ok, maybe not as popular. But that's real-life existence we are arguing, not popularity. Again I'm asking you to correct that position considering everything we just talked about.93.73.62.38 (talk) 15:38, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
When I click on the link Softlavender gives for "Kyiv" usage, I can't see any results. If I then limit it to the past year, the first half of the page is about "Dynamo Kyiv" (a separate term) and the last half is not in English. --Khajidha (talk) 13:59, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the current citation for the statement in this wiki article is ten years old, I think it's worthwhile to update the statement by qualifying it with a word such as "generally" or "in most instances" or something like that. The Google search reveals approximately a 20% to 30% usage of "Kyiv" by the BBC, but no more than that, so they still certainly mostly use Kiev. Softlavender (talk) 16:45, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, nothing needs to change. We're only quibbling over the last sentence of an entire, detailed section on the Name. And the last sentence is quite true: Most media sources, such as the BBC continue to use "Kiev". It doesn't say they exclusively use "Kiev". But the BBC Style Guide is quite unambiguous. Until there is more than the anecdotal evidence offered here and a definitive statement from the BBC, then there is no need either factually or semantically to change the sentence. --Taivo (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with TaivoLinguist, with the added question of whether your Google search reveals usage by the BBC or usage on BBC sites. A large number of Ukrainian nationalists could post on comment threads and such there using "Kyiv", but that should not count towards BBC usage.--Khajidha (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've made several changes to the sentence in question to answer the Anon IP's concerns. 1) I reworded the sentence to "X prefers 'Kiev'". 2) I linked to the style guides of both the BBC and The Economist which specifically state that "Kiev" is to be used. 3) I added a search of the New York Times for the last 12 months that shows "Kiev" both as the byline and in text (a corresponding search for "Kyiv" only yields the title of a book twice). This should clarify the situation. --Taivo (talk) 17:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is perfectly acceptable. Thanks. P.S: it may seem quibbling for UK or US citizen but question is actually important in Ukraine. 93.73.62.38 (talk) 18:04, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this sentence "Kiev is also based on the old Ukrainian language spelling of the city name and was used by Ukrainians and their ancestors from the time of Kievan Rus until only about the last century." in the "Name" section should be removed. Except for the statement itself, there aren't any proofs for this claim in the reference article. Dotoner (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03vgz9t
  2. ^ http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-37319139
  3. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism
  4. ^ http://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/18523013
  5. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02rs2sk
  6. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03y888v
  7. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4038409.stm
  8. ^ http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28371461
  9. ^ http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26835441
  10. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/11_november/18/ethics.shtml
  11. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4375192.stm
  12. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/3487046.stm
  13. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/12/architecture/lenin-statues-niels-ackermann-sebastien-gobert/index.html
  14. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/12/europe/gallery/crimea-ukraine-cnn-photos/index.html
  15. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/20/europe/gallery/makeshift-kiev-hospitals/index.html
  16. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/24/world/cnnphotos-chernobyl-youth/index.html
  17. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/02/politics/us-ukraine-lethal-aid/index.html
  18. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/04/opinion/ayotte-moment-of-truth-nato-ukraine/index.html
  19. ^ http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/opinion/morris-ted-chernobyl/index.html
  20. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8645126.stm
  21. ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/world/onyourstreet/mslen2.shtml

Streets renamed

Yesterday some streets of Kyiv were renamed from "Russian names" to "Ukrainian names" (including one to controversial Stepan Bandera). Should this be mentioned in this Wikipedia article? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 00:15, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely mention the fact of renaming; I do not think we should provide a full list.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:38, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Denonym

Please, add "Kyivite" to the cell captioned "Denonym", which is more correct than Kievan. Reference: http://www.ukrainianlanguage.org.uk/read/unit15/page15-6.htm (Мафілав (talk) 20:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC))[reply]

This is for English usage demonyms, I don't think I've ever seen "Kyivite" in English text. --Khajidha (talk) 21:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done. See Talk:Kiev/naming. The demonym in English would match the city name in English. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:15, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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