Talk:Murder of Maria Ladenburger

Article's name

Hi, I think the name should be more discrete and say "Murder of Maria L." to protect the family. This wasn't a public figure and that's the way it needs to be done. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 09:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

We don't censor surnames on English Wikipedia. They're routinely stated - look at the many other articles about murders. Jim Michael (talk) 10:29, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

We can do the decent thing however and exercise some editorial judgement. Agree with H-s' move.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Disagree. Aside from the fact that it is a common standard to mention full names in the English WP, the family of Maria Ladenburger published her full name in Frankfurter Allgemeine, one of the leading German nationwide newspapers. So obiously they don't want to conceal it and we should respect that.--Gerry1214 (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The family published a death notice in Frankfurter Allgemeine not mentioning in any means that their daughter had been murdered. The burial was in Brussels, so they could not know this would be connected to the murder case, and this was weeks before the murderer was found. Only then an article in Frankfurter Allgemeine mentioned the position of her father as an high EU official. The idea they don't mind seeing their full name published is entirely speculative and in my opinion contrary to normal psychology, especially as some social media talk expresses "Schadenfreude" seeing the daughter of an EU official victim of such a crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.244.195.96 (talk) 00:05, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTCENSORED. Parsley Man (talk) 02:01, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

You mean the policy that doesn't say anything about how we must throw away common decency when making editorial changes? Or do you mean the policy that is one of the most abused policies on wikipedia because people tend to misunderstand it in some sophomoric way? I have read it. What's your point? Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

We should not let our personal emotions get in the way of editing on this encyclopedia. If an RS covers it, we must report it. Parsley Man (talk) 04:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

And we do. That's why this article exists. What does that have to do with anything? Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

If an RS covers the surname, then we shouldn't make an exception for excluding it. Parsley Man (talk) 04:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

So which RS does mention the name? I only see some British tabloids. The obituary that Gerry1214 mentions does not for itself draw any connection to the crime. Drawing the conclusion that the family wants the name of her daughter to be known in connection to the crime is rather speculative. LucLeTruc (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The Los Angeles Times. Unless you think the LAT is a British newspaper. And of course there is nothing wrong with British media, anyway. XavierItzm (talk) 23:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Burqa "ban"

The mentioning of Merkel banning Burqas in Germany as a reaction to this event here is wrong. First, she did not propose to ban the Burqa completely as it is phrased here (only in certain places), second the tabloid you use as a source here does not qualify as a reliable source and third even the sun does not connect the two things. The article only mentions the rape to describe the current political climate in Germany. Just ask yourself, what sense would it make to ban Burqas because some criminal raped a woman? How can these things be related? LucLeTruc (talk) 13:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The source itself makes the connection. The source is cited. What you request would require WP:OR and that goes against WP policies. XavierItzm (talk) 23:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The source does not make this connection.LucLeTruc (talk) 01:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The source reads, with regard to the burka ban by Merkel: "It comes as the country reacts with horror at the murder of 19-year-old Maria Ladenburger - the daughter of a senior EU official." XavierItzm (talk) 10:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

So where is the causal connection which justifies this beeing included as a reaction to the crime? The burqa debate has been going on for quite a while now independently of this rape case. LucLeTruc (talk) 14:51, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

WP goes by published sources. The sources publish facts, one cites the facts. One does not engage in WP:OR to try and determine if there has been a debate, how long the debate has been going on, etc. XavierItzm (talk) 23:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I have added another part of the source - though this argumentation is an abuse of Wikipedia principles. I could quote another newspaper as a new source, ans probably I would not quote the sun. Arguing only with published sources without any other arguments like this would cause endless edit wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.244.195.96 (talk) 00:11, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Carolin G

Folks, wikipedia is no tabloid. Please do not link the murder of Maria L and Carolin G as long as there is no proof of a connection of the two. Police investigated possible links but at the moment largely rule out a connection. Adding a whole paragraph here is not appropriate. You can add a possible link as soon as investigators find any. LucLeTruc (talk) 16:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The same as below. Sources tied it, the nationwide German TV show Aktenzeichen XY mentioned the possible link. Therefore, it is related.--Gerry1214 (talk) 17:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, there is a difference between a crime TV show and an enzyclopedia like Wikipedia. Wikipedia only writes about well reported and well sourced facts and no speculations. And there just simply (currently) is no known fact that links the two cases. Police actually largely rule out a connection. LucLeTruc (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Aktenzeichen XY … ungelöst is a very reputable TV programme, to my knowledge the oldest of this kind. The article does not say that the cases are linked in a criminological way; it mentions what happened: that more than 400 people called in to give information to the police in both cases, and that no link was found up to now. And this is important, as many speculations can be found in the internet. There are various press articles who tied both cases as "Frauenmorde von Freiburg", not only because of the fact that many people in the region, especially women are simply scared, but also because they were "strikingly resemblant".[1]--Gerry1214 (talk) 19:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Adding this in one sentence would be enough and would not draw the attention away from the case which is the focus of this article. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

There should be enough space on the servers of Wikimedia foundation and we should leave the decision, what he wants to give attention to, to the reader himself. ;)--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, the art of writing good articles is also the art of writing focussed articles that stick to the relevant aspects of the subject. In my eyes this is not too relevant. But lets leave it as is, other aspects on this page are more important in this regard.LucLeTruc (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Family of Maria L

How is the mentioning of the family of the victim important for an enzyclopedian article? I would remove all info about her father and the obituary as this does not add any useful information. LucLeTruc (talk) 16:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The sources tie this information to the case (FAZ mentioned the profession of her father for example); the family itself released an obituary. And it is also important for the political dimension of the case. It's not important what some people consider as "not useful". Others will find it useful, and so do I.--Gerry1214 (talk) 17:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

So in what way is the name and profession of the father related to the case? Or to the political dimension of it?LucLeTruc (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that makes any difference, as we cover both.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Please have a look at WP:BLPNAME. There is no relevance of the fathers name, nor of his profession for the crime. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

But as I said it's relevant for the political dimension of this. To conceal it would mean to conceal a decisive element of the tragic events.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, even though I asked you did not say why this could be relevant to the political dimension. I doubt that there is a relation between the father of the victim and the crime and the political dimension of it. LucLeTruc (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Please do me a favor, write to Frankfurter Allgemeine and ask them why he mentioned him?! Maybe because he is a high official of the EU and has a public website at Saarland University. Would be reason enough.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

You still did not answer my question. Just because somebody else mentions these irrelevant aspects does not mean that we have to mention them. And by the way, they explicitly do not mention his full name. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

But numerous other sources do.[2][3][4].--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This discussion gets tiring. Again, please explain the relevance of the name and profession of the father for the crime.LucLeTruc (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Again you ask for WP:OR. We, the editors, must not engage in WP:OR. We simply cite the WP:RS, which have mentioned the Ladenburger's profession and occupation. It would be improper to censor out that which multiple WP:RS cite. XavierItzm (talk) 23:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

You clearly misunderstand WP:OR which does not relate to what I am suggesting. Just because some tabloids report something, this does not mean that this has to be mentioned in an article in an encyclopedia. LucLeTruc (talk) 01:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

LucLeTruc asked: "please explain the relevance of the name and profession of the father for the crime" at 20:48, 8 December. The WP:RS mention this multiple times; for example, [5][6][7]. We go by WP:RS, and there is no need for editors to do WP:OR to justify the WP:RS. XavierItzm (talk) 10:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

As I said in other threads, we are running in circles. Just the fact that a bunch of tabloids (and you guys by linking personal job-webpages of the father or personal obituaries of the family) dig out personal details about the victim of a crime case and her family which are not related in a causal way to the crime itself does not make any of these things relevant for the crime itself and hence not relevant for the article here. I asked multiple times where this causal connection is which would make these details worthy of beeing included in an encyclopedia and the only answer I got was: "Because the yellow press reported it". Lets see what other people are thinking, I doubt that we will reach a conclusion here. LucLeTruc (talk) 14:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

In the Wikipedia, what is considered relevant is generally that which the sources considered relevant to report. In this case, the sources mention certain facts regarding the antecedents of the crime, and naturally these facts are included in the Wikipedia entry. XavierItzm (talk) 23:24, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

What is considered relevant is generally that which the sources considered relevant to report? That will end up in one side looking for sources backing up their opinion an the other side in the same way - Someone picks up sources describing croatian warcrimes against serbs and another one sources describing serb warcrimes. This is no fiction but for example reality in german wikipedia, only that more or less only the serb side is promoted, probably caused by russia-linked activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.244.195.96 (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Donations for refugees

Please do not use the tabloid Bild as a source. What they claim (that the family pleaded for donations for refugees) is just wrong. Here is a statement of the affected organisation regarding these misleading press reports [8]LucLeTruc (talk) 18:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The organisation is clearly active in refugee relief which they don't tell us in their statement for whatever reason, but it can be found on their homepage [[9]], so Bild is right from this perspective and the donations for the organisation are partially for refugees. But you're right it should be said precisely in the article that she herself was engaged not directly in refugee relief, but in a project for Ghana.--Gerry1214 (talk) 19:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The subject could be important, because it is not finally clear, if Maria met the murderer before, maybe at the association's office or the university.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Weltblick clearly states that the donations will not be used for refugee relief. However, she may still have been active in some sort of refugee activism outside of this organisation. Several newspapers say so but it is unclear whether this is correct or as badly researched as the Bild stuff. Well, the conflict is the same as in all these other articles we are arguing about: This "could" be important, but it does not have to be (if the perpetrator did not know his victim). Please wait until the investigation is over and include this until then rather speculative stuff only afterwards. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The article does not say anymore that the donations are for refugee relief, it says they are for Maria's association. It tells the facts and don't leaves that to dubious websites that spread rumors. That's what Wikipedia all about.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not only about mere facts it is also about relevant facts. Such relevant facts are the crime, the perpetrator, the circumstances of the crime and the political debate triggered by it. All the tragic details of the family of the victim etc. are the realm of tabloids but not an encyclopedia. Just because something is true, it does not neccesarily have to be included in this wikipedia article. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And I wrote above why it is relevant. It is even more relevant, because the Weitblick association now published an "open letter" and participated in the public debate with this.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

No, you do not say why a call for donations in an obituary is relevant for a rape case.LucLeTruc (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I did.--Gerry1214 (talk) 20:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Please discuss in a constructive way. This ping pong is tiring. I do not see a convincing explanation. You state that the victim may have met the perpetrator in this association which is highly speculative and should hence not be in the article (until confirmed). Still this does not make this plea for donations relevant. LucLeTruc (talk) 20:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The sources mention, even provide graphic evidence, that the family requested donations for Weltblick. Weltblick engages in country-of-origin aid projects and also engages in refugee-sponsoring projects in Germany. The article is quite clear in explaining this, and all statements are well-sourced. Since the WP:RS themselves provide the information, there is no basis to attempt to censor out the sources. XavierItzm (talk) 23:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We are running in circles here. All this does not in any way explain the relevance of this donation plea for the subject of this article. In fact, most of the information about the victim of the crime is, as of the current status of the investigation, totally irrelevant to the rape case. Just because some yellow press newspapers like to dig out stories about the personal background of people involved in crime cases and report this stuff, does not make any of this relevant to an article in an encyclopedia. LucLeTruc (talk) 01:20, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Multiple WP:RS cite these facts. If you disagree with the reportage done by the WP:RS, you could contact their editors and challenge their reporting directly. XavierItzm (talk) 10:31, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I do not care what the British or German yellow press is reporting or not, I care about what is reported on the wikipdia and what is not. The criteria for information to be included in the two totally different kind of media are substantially different.LucLeTruc (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I was not aware the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is considered yellow press (by you). Maybe you should edit the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wikipedia page to indicate you consider it to be yellow press, if you have WP:RS to support this. XavierItzm (talk) 23:20, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

In this case we are speaking of a local correspondent of the online page of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, which is becoming more and more yellow press like; it publishes partly the same articles as in the paper version and some others too; anyway like other online media it has the habit of drawing attention to its articles AND the discussion site by sensational themes and details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.244.195.96 (talk) 00:20, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Place of birth

Is there any evidence that Maria was born in Brussels as mentioned in the box on the top right. At least the obituary in FAZ does not mention the place of birth. 80.187.100.142 (talk) 01:38, 10 December 2016 (UTC)