Wikipedia talk:No original research

Evaluation of sources as OR?

I've been running into a situation where the evaluation of sources is described as OR, see for example below:

• The above is a combination of original research which we dont do and actual genuine concerns via RSN discussion, permalink, plus the one below.
• Once more, you are using a non-expert source to attack the credibility of biographer. That is OR and Tendentious.
• You've given nothing in the above to show that he is. All looks like opinion and OR to me via RSN discussion, Archives and so on

As far as I know, evaluation of sources is not considered WP:OR in Wikipedia terms. I would like to clarify this. If this is not the case, should a statement to this effect be added to the page? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:31, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

You are correct. The first paragraph of this policy states, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages." Research is often an essential part of determining whether a source is reliable or a point of view significant. RS would be totally nonfunctional if we were not allowed to argue over whether a source was reliable. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:44, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: Thank you for the clarification. Since this issue comes up on a regular basis, would there be any objection to modifying the statement as follows:

• Currently: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages."
• Suggested: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages; specifically, evaluation of sources by editors is not original research. (See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources)."

Or perhaps as a note, following "...does not apply to talk pages"? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I object to the change suggested by K.e.coffman because it could be viewed as a limitation; if the change were made, someone would use it to delete discussion on a talk page because it is some form of original research on a talk page other than evaluating a source. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

That makes sense. How about: "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages.?

References

K.e.coffman (talk) 20:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe make it more a positive example (which then means it probably should be placed somewhere in the body as to explain such allowed OR usage. Something akin to "Wikipedia talk pages are generally not held to the NOR requirement. Some activities related to the development of an article that may seem like original research, such as source evaluation, discussions on weight and merit of inclusion, and wording choices, are considered necessary elements towards building an encyclopedia and are thus allowed on talk pages. Editors are reminded that all other policies and guidelines (in particular WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:BLP) still apply to these talk pages, and talk pages are not to be used as forums for aspects not related towards building of an encyclopedia." --MASEM (t) 20:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

This looks good to me. Perhaps anchor it to WP:OKOR (as in "when OR is okay") or WP:TPOR ("talk page OR")? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

While I agree Masem's looks good, I would rather see it as an instruction creep and prefer the shorter version, a bit expanded:

"This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards."

There is so much to say which arguments are OK and which are not. For some situations we even have essays to this end, like "Which arguments are not to use in AfD discussions." Staszek Lem (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The shorter version works as well. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:44, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Since there's be no further input, I implemented the last suggestion: diff, with my addition (in bold) "...evaluate article content and sources...". Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:13, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Current consensus

• Courtesy ping to Dapi89 who apparently disagrees that evaluation of sources is not OR (diff, so that they can review the above discussion. Please also see WP:OR which states:

"This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.

K.e.coffman (talk) 18:23, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

• It appears that the consequence of K.e.coffman's proposal above to insert "and sources" is that greater weight now appears to be given to a Wikipedian's original research than scholarly book reviews published in journals. --Nug (talk) 08:49, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Coffmann, you've misunderstood, unintentionally though, I couldn't say. I object to these personal "evaluations". So far you've offered no sources. Dapi89 (talk) 12:27, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm undecided, agreeing with nearly every argument for the two nearest versions. Two comments on Masem's version. I think that such an explanation is a good approach could be a good addition. However, respectfully, I think that it has a huge flaw in saying that Wp:Ver, WP:NOR apply to talk pages. Generally they don't, and this even self-conflicts with the paragraph that it is in. North8000 (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Continued discussion

Editors Nug and Dapi89 possibly refer to the recent discussion at WP:RSN where the three of us participated: Colin Heaton's biography of Hans-Joachim Marseille, specifically when used for claims of Marseille being an anti-Nazi: Hans-Joachim_Marseille#Marseille_and_Nazism. The following 3rd party evaluations were offered as part of the discussion:

• General commentary on Marseille's alleged anti-Nazi stance:

• Center for Military History and Social Sciences of the Bundeswehr issued a statement in 2013 pertaining to Marseille, which states: "occasional attempts in the popular literature to suggest [...] an ideological distance to National Socialism are misleading" (for full quote & PDF, see: Talk:Der Stern von Afrika#Rabidly anti-Nazi)

• General review of Heaton's work:

• Horst Boog, one of the most respected German authorities on aerial warfare during WW II, devotes a whole paragraph of his review to a list of errors, concluding that there were even more errors. The preceding is re: Boog's review of Heaton's Night Fighters (which is his MA thesis at Temple Univ.) in the Militärgeschichtliche Zeitschrift (2010).

• Specific reviews of the biography in question:

• a review of Heaton's book by the journal Military Review in the March-April 2015 edition states "A well-written, insightful, quality book, it entertains while it educates; it is highly recommended."[1]
• a review of Heaton's book on Marseille from Aviation History. Mar 2013, Vol. 23 Issue 4, p62-62. 1/2p.. It reads in part: "Writing the biography of a 22-year-old, most of whose life remains undocumented, isn't easy."

Neither of the specific reviews addressed the subject of whether Marseille was an anti-Nazi or not.

Editor Dapi offered a personal opinion:

• This claim of unreliability is just an opinion of one editor. (...) Heaton qualifies as reliable. I did not see third party evidence from Dapi that Heaton is reliable when it comes to Marseille being anti-Nazi.

Editor Nug also offered a personal opinion:

• I think Heaton is a reliable source for his own opinion that "Marseille was perhaps the most openly anti-Nazi warrior in the Third Reich."

Re: So far you've offered no sources -- based on the above, the sources have been offered. I believe that it's appropriate to offer personal opinions regarding sources based on available evidence. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:00, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

• K.e.coffman has been raising essentially the same issue of Heaton's reliability on multiple noticeboards, first on multiiple talk pages, then on RSN, now here. This has been going on since at least July 2016. Looks like a case of WP:FORUMSHOP. --Nug (talk) 09:18, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
• This discussion got restarted because editor Dapi89 disagreed that evaluation was not original research. You expressed concerns as well; see Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Current_consensus: ...greater weight now appears to be given to a Wikipedian's original research than scholarly book reviews published in journals.

Do you agree that evaluation of sources is not OR? Then (if we can convince Dapi) we could close this discussion. K.e.coffman (talk) 09:42, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the evaluation of sources ought place more weight upon scholarly reviews published in professional journals in preference to personal viewpoints without reference to anything. --Nug (talk) 09:53, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

The issue is, he is using the most indirect commentary to discredit Heaton. Where do these people deal with the work at hand? Dapi89 (talk) 21:40, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Is 222 approximately 200?

In Talk:Executive_Order_13769#200_million an anonymous wikiholic (=me) asked: Was there a community consensus (closed RfC) to supplement policy WP:SYNTH with the WP:NOTSYNTH essay intended to be an explanatory supplement, or was it added as some alternative fact? –2A03:2267:0:0:3D0D:4FD7:7B82:8DF5 (talk) 07:53, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
This interesting WP:SYNTH case was archived later. –2A03:2267:0:0:E8B1:9A50:813C:1999 (talk) 00:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Glossary of Indian Classical Music

Glossary of Indian Classical Music Source : Harmonium Learning Center This is an alphabetical list of the more important and frequently used terms in North Indian classical music.This category is about musical terminology of Hindustani classical music, a principal sub genre of Indian classical music. Alaap:Elaboration of a melody without accompaniments

amad:arrival into the orbit of the tala leading to the sam

andolan:swinging (around a swar)

ang:lit. part, body

antar:the latter half of a khyaal composition

antra:The second half of a song based on the higher notes of the scale.

anuvaadi:neutral (refers to swar)

Amrohi:Descend of the notes Example : Ni, Dha, Pa, Ma, Ga, Re, Sa

arohi:ascending contour of a raga or ascend of the notes. Here each note is higher than the preceding note. Example : Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni

asthayee:the first half of a khyaal of song compositioin or the first part of the composition. Mainly develops in the lower and the middle octave.

audov:pentatonic

bada khyaal:vilambit khayal composition

bandish:that which is bound or constrained; refers to a melodic composition fixed with words to the tala cycle; may also refer to the superstructure of the kyaal presentation. While alaap is the revelation of the raga, bandish is its design or display. Here the modes are explained in tune and words. Bandish is a composition (vocal or instrumental) fixed in a rhythmic pattern.

besura:out of tune

bhajan:devotional song

bol: syllables of text or tAla compositions

bol-alaap: Alaap done with words of text bol-taan:taans with words of text. Use of words in the improvisation of notes in medium or fast tempo chalan:lit. gait, a tonal sentence showing movement within a raga dhamar:a traditional dhrupad-like form usually set in the 14-beat dhamar taal or a style of compositionin 14 beats of a Taal dhrupad:ancient Indian classical form evolved from prabandha. 'Dhrupad' and pada (word). It has a formal structure, the details of which are beyond the scope of this glossary. A style of composition in 12beats Drut:Fast Tempo of the music ektaal:a 12-beat tala gamak:embellishment imparted to a swara; there are several types of gamakas gandhar:G or g, the third swar of the scale gat: refers to a composition played on the tabla Gat:A fixed composition of instrumental music gharana:a stylistic tradition or school in Hindustani music ghazal:a lyrical form in Urdu poetry; there are precise criteria by which a form is considered a ghazal guru:Traditional teacher or preceptor

jati:Model Scale jhaptaal:a 10-beat tala kalakar:artiste kana-swara: grace swar khraj:bass, movement in the lower parts of the mandar saptak khayal:lit. thought, the dominant form in Hindustani music of the day or composition in Hindustani music, usually in a slow tempo, in which the artist uses a great deal of improvisation komal:flattened kshudra: refers to a raga low in significance lakshan:distinguishing character laya:tempo madh:middle, qualifies the octave and the tempo madhyam: M or m, the fourth swar of the scale mandar: the lower register matra:time interval between beats of a tala. One beat of the rhythm meend:a smooth (typically descending) glide from one swar to the other melakarta:the raga grouping scheme found in the Karnataka paddhati comprising 72 sampooran scales mukhra:lit. face; the opening textual and melodic phrase of a composition or the first line of the composition. murki:a short, rapid trill nishad:N or n, the seventh swar of the scale odho:Pentatonic mode emphasizing any five notes pakkad:the 'handle' (quintessence) of a raga pancham:P, the fifth swara of the scale poorvi ang:the lower half (tetrachord) of the scale poorvi ragas:Ragas sung between the hours of 12 midnights and 12 noons raga:the melodic structure basic to Indian music or combination of notes that conveys a definite emotion raganga:raga+anga, the core feature of the raga rasa:The flavour to be realized in the atheistic emotion rishab, rikhab:R or r, the second swar of the scale roopak:a 7-beat Hindustani tala sahitya:prose, text of a composition sampoorn:complete, refers to a raga employing 7 swaras samvadi: the sub-dominant swara in a raga saptak:octave or nn octave of natural notes sam:the first beat of a tala sargam:presentation of a melody in actual notes shabad:lit. word, also refers to the hymns in the Sikh holy book, Gurbani shadav:of six swaras shadaj:S, the tonic Sa shruti:Shruti or śruti (ʃrut̪i) is a Sanskrit term, which in the context of Indian music, is the smallest interval of pitch that the human ear can detect. swar; also refers to microtones or a musical interval shuddh:It refers to the 7 basic notes of the octave or a pure note samay :Each raga has a specific time at which it an be performed. This is so as those notes are supposed to be more effective at that particular time. sthana:location swar:a musical note plus its graces swa roop:appearance, profile taiyyari:preparation (in terms of training) of a musician taal:the rhythmic cycle with matras and bols. Time measure of rhythmic beat. taan:rapid musical passage. Improvisations of notes in medium and fast tempo teentaal:a 16-beat tala tiver:augmented or sharpened, qualifies the madhyam thaat:group of sampoorn scales, taxonomical scheme for Hindustani ragas uttara ang:the upper tetrachord varja:eliminated, banned (refers to swars absent from a raga) vilambit:slow, qualifies pace of a composition or elaboration vivaadi:a foreign swar occasionally injected into a raga for ornamental or surprise value. The meaning of vivadi is "one which produces dissonance ".Which is not present in the raga. But still a vivadi swar is used in a raga by able singers in such a way that it enhances the beauty of the raga. This is done very rarely. For example some times in the raga "aiman" Shuddh Madhyam is used in between

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bilad0032 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Newspapers as primary or secondary sources

Ww2censor has stated newspapers are NOT primary sources. diff

I think that's far too sweeping a statement. In fact I think that the specific newspaper notices that are the subject of the discussion in question are indeed examples of primary sources.

Perhaps the policy and/or Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources needs some clarification on this point? Ww2censor has gone to a lot of trouble to find these sources, so I can understand their objecting to any suggestion that they may not be reliable secondary sources.

But my understanding is that many things published in newspapers would be primary sources... most obituary notices as an example. It's this principle I'm most interested in exploring.

Comments? TIA Andrewa (talk) 21:00, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately I may have written this in too dogmatic a form for Andrewa and have responded to him here pointing out the generally accepted view that newspapers are secondary sources and contrary to his suggestion, be consigned to talk pages and not used in articles. ww2censor (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

In my view, it is sufficiently dogmatic to be highly misleading. (It was posted to the talk page of a newbie, remember.) That was my reason for coming here.

I agree that, generally, newspaper articles are reliable secondary sources. That is a far weaker statement. I have no problem with it at all.

(And as an aside, it appears quite irrelevant to the discussion in which your dogmatic statement was made... a discussion in which, by contrast, your dogmatic statement if true would be pivotal.) Andrewa (talk) 08:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I didn't look into the policies right now, but to say that newspapers are sources is a bit sloppy in this context. Articles in newspapers are our sources, and as such, they may be either primary or secondary, heck even tertiary ones pop up sporadically. "Primary/secondary" classification is not according to publisher, but according to in what form information is delivered, raw or regurgitated. What is more, even an individual article may be both primary and secondary. For example, a research article in a journal may be mostly a primary source, but it may have a "Background" section, which would be a secondary source. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:52, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

• Hi @Andrewa, Ww2censor, and Staszek Lem:. I'll speak specifically to obituaries in newspapers. I would not call these primary sources; rather, a primary source for a funeral or death notice would be an interview with the family, or information from a mortuary or, more frequently available, the often created paper handout distributed at viewings which detail birth, death, and a eulogy. The Newspaper account is necessarily a secondary to information held by the mortuary - which is most commonly the source, I believe - or family. My interest in obituaries relates to both Wikipedia and genealogical investigations.

  on a broader topic ... what are primary newspaper sources? I agree that there a significant amount of newspaper content might be primary; for instance, pictures taken by staff and included in articles ... opinion pieces, which are equivalent to personal letters or interviews ... eye witness reporting which is done by newspaper staff and entered direct as content into an article. These might not be popular views, and I've not thought very hard on this. I think the more important matter than primary/secondary is reliable/unreliable; content in newspapers which is subject to editorial review (does not necessarily include Opinion pieces or letters to the editor) should be considered reliable and intrinsically usable as citation sources. Thanks for listening. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:39, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Contemporaneous reporting

• I have a related question. I tagged a 1944 (contemporaneous) newspaper source as primary, and the response was: Nonsense. Primary sources are accounts written by people directly involved, like diaries for example, the author of that article was obviously not involved in the battle. Source: Talk:Paul_Maitla#Unreliable_primary_source

I've always thought of war-time propaganda to be an unreliable primary source. What would be the feedback here? Courtesy ping to Nug. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:49, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

A primary source is by its very nature reliable, only its authenticity can be questioned. The fact that wartime propaganda said that enemy General XYZ had syphilis, for example, is established by citing a propaganda document itself as a primary source. But as to whether the General actually had syphilis, we would look for secondary sources, and I hope we'd regard that and other propaganda documents as quite worthless. Andrewa (talk) 08:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Actually, primary sources (using the "secondary == transformative") can be unreliable too; an eyewitness reporter may misreport a fact they observed, for example. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Good point... I'm struggling with the wording here. The fact that General XYZ was claimed to have syphilis is reliably verified by a ref to the publication that made this claim. But with an eyewitness account, as you say, there's an inherent possibility of error. Andrewa (talk) 14:51, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I would argue for purposes of terminology that a fictitious statement like the propaganda case, or say a tabloid "X is dating Y!" are primary sources, but by their nature the sources are unreliable (and in the propaganda case, there's also the dependency aspect), so their use as a factual statement should be questioned. In the case of mistaken reporter, that would likely be a one-off type case, and ideally other primary sources would be used to show that one account incorrect. All of this comes down to the fact that it is very difficult to slap a "all sources of type X are primary/secondary" and requires understanding what the sources provides (primary/secondary/tertiary info), who wrote the source (first or third-person), and their "COI"-aspect related to the topic (dependent or independent), all which have different applications to the different content policies of V, NOR, and NPOV (and WP:N too). --MASEM (t) 15:01, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

In this case a contemporaneous newspaper reports that a certain officer was decorated for his role in a particular battle. WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, by their very nature (decorations needing the approval of the military's chain of command) such reports are fundamentally more reliable than, say, reports of an enemy General XYZ was having syphilis (which is likely to be propaganda). I cannot think of a single instance of a report of a soldier's decoration being fictitious. --Nug (talk) 08:20, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

A Victoria Cross or a Medal of Honor citation would IMO be an excellent secondary source. The investigations carried out before these are awarded are quite rigorous. But I would not be confident that all militaries are so reliable in their awards of decorations. Andrewa (talk) 10:33, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Why would you be less confident that the German military would be less reliable in their rigor? Do you have concrete evidence of a single instance that a contemporaneous newspaper controlled by the Germans fabricated a report of such an award? -Nug (talk) 20:09, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

At the time that I tagged the article, the 1944 newspaper was citing much more than date of the award: link, such as:

• Maitla with his battalion succeeded in stopping the Red Army offensive in the Battle of Auvere...

References

For reliability of contemporaneous materials re: the circumstance leading to the awarding of the Knight's Cross, please see this comment: link from the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer) discussion, including:

• ...as Roman Töppel has shown (Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes und der Kampfwert militärischer Verbände, Ztschr Heereskunde 446/2012), to receive a Knight's Cross a soldier needed more than to be "extremely brave on the battlefield". To be considered for the award he also needed a superior officer who would propose him. In his biography of Jochen Peiper, historian Jens Westemeier described Peiper's favoritism concerning these proposals and spoke of "Ordenskameraderie". For example, Westemeier calls the award for Georg Preuß "a bad joke".

I would also note that the German press did not have independent news correspondents at the front lines. All press accounts pertaining to military action were based on pre-screened materials from the Wehrmacht Propaganda Department. See, for example, Wehrmachtbericht (Wehrmacht Report). So the 1944 source is not independent of Germany's war-time propaganda, and is, in fact, a part of it. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Your response appears somewhat misleading. The fact is your tagging related to two cited sentences about the actual awarding of two decorations:

• In April 1943, the Estonian Waffen SS brigade participated in the battles in Nevel, and Maitla received the Iron Cross II class on 8 December for bravery.
• On 29 July, he and his battalion led a counter-attack at the Battle of Tannenberg Line for which he was awarded the Knights Cross on 23 August.

References

Secondly, your link from the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer) discussion is totally irrelevant and off topic, what has Peiper's favoritism got to do with anything?

Thirdly, your contention that "German press did not have independent news correspondents at the front lines" is just plain silly. Given the need to maintain secrecy and thus military censorship in place the Allies didn't have "independent" news correspondents at the front lines either. But that is irrelevant since the cited sentences only identifies the battles and the dates of the decoration. Please read WP:CONTEXTMATTERS --Nug (talk) 08:30, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Please see the entire paragraph [as tagged:

• Maitla was appointed Hauptsturmführer and in April 1944 he was commander of the 1st Battalion of the 45th Regiment of the newly formed 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). In the same year, Maitla with his battalion succeeded in stopping the Red Army offensive at Auvere and received the Iron Cross I class. On 29 July, he and his battalion led a counter-attack at the Battle of Tannenberg Line for which he was awarded the Knights Cross on 23 August.

References

When a citation appears at the end of the para, it's assumed that the citation covers the entire paragraph, including the statement: "Maitla with his battalion succeeded in stopping the Red Army offensive ...". Or would you disagree? K.e.coffman (talk) 08:41, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Given that the fully cited article Battle of Auvere describes the outcome as a "German defensive victory", it is not clear why you think the statement "Maitla with his battalion succeeded in stopping the Red Army offensive in the Battle of Auvere" is controversial given that he and his battalion where participants in the battle. In any case you also tagged a single sentence paragraph:

• In April 1943, the Estonian Waffen SS brigade participated in the battles in Nevel, and Maitla received the Iron Cross II class on 8 December for bravery.^{[1][non-primary source needed]}

--Nug (talk) 09:40, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Continued discussion

In reply to Staszek Lem above, I agree totally. Very well said.

Agree that some obits are secondary sources. But one placed by a funeral director in the classified advertisements of a newspaper, just listing the name, dates of death and birth, names of relatives and similar details of the deceased, is a valid primary source IMO. Such notices are very common in Australia.

All please note that my question above states the specific newspaper notices that are the subject of the discussion in question are indeed examples of primary sources. (emphasis added) But I don't think this is the place to discuss those particular sources, that is for WP:RSN. That's why I have not linked to them here. Anyone interested can follow the diff I provided to the discussion, and find them there.

But is it fair to say that there is consensus here that the statement newspapers are NOT primary sources is completely unhelpful? That is what I am seeking to decide here, in order to reassure the relative newcomer on whose user talk page the original claim was posted.

And I need to now further ask, is there a generally accepted view that newspapers are secondary sources as Ww2censor now claims above?

This seems to me to be no better than the original statement. They describe it as less dogmatic, which is probably true, but the errors are all still there.

And they have now posted on the user talk page To me the essence of your opinion seems to be that newspapers are primary sources when we generally hold newspapers are NOT primary sources and as such are OR. Sorry but I disagree with that interpretation. So to terminate this storm-in-a-teacup I won't respond again... diff which completely misrepresents my opinion, but more important, also IMO misrepresents Wikipedia policy. Andrewa (talk) 14:32, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Newspapers can be either primary or secondary, it all depends on context. We are looking for some type of transformation of information (analysis, critique, interpretation, evaluation, synthesis, etc.) for secondary sources, and that often happens in a larger NY Times obit (why that person was important, their impact, etc.) as well as within op-eds and larger in-depth pieces. But most of a newspaper's day to day reporting is primary, simply re-stating facts said by others or reporting eye-witness observations without commentary. It is all context though, and no single statement covers the gambit. --MASEM (t) 14:39, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Exactly.

This is my opinion too, and is I believe Wikipedia policy.

And the continued statements by Ww2censor plainly contradicting this view need to be corrected, particularly in view of the fact that they have been posted on the user talk page of an already rather stressed and confused newbie.

I note the dismissive storm in a teacup comment. Not impressed. Failure to get to the point, IMO. Andrewa (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

With respect, I think most of this discussion is neither here no there. The important thing is whether particular newspaper articles are reliable sources and how they can be cited without violating NOR. I'm not aware of any difference it makes whether the article is a "primary" or "secondary" source. We aren't forbidden from citing primary sources; we are only forbidden from making our own interpretations of them. But we aren't allowed to make our own interpretations of secondary sources either. Zero^talk 00:55, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not addressing the issue of NOR but I will say journalism is always a primary source. Secondary sources require analysis, which is found in academic journals and some books. I think with the advent of social media the term primary source has been misunderstood by some to mean only what someone says about themselves. Primary sources are any account (independent or otherwise) that is contemporaneous. There has to be some time and distance for a secondary source analysis. The fact that a newspaper is either reliable or independent does not make it secondary. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Not true. Your day-to-day news reports are primary as they aren't transforming information. But in-depth journalism stories can be secondary as well. Most of the NYTimes obits that go indepth about a person (not the short form ones) are secondary for that person. --MASEM (t) 03:17, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

My undergrad is in history. Anything not written at least 50-100 years after the fact is mere journalism and hence, contemporaneous primary source. An obit lacks the academic distance required. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:43, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm finding Anything not written at least 50-100 years after the fact is mere journalism rather difficult to swallow. Do you have anything to substantiate that claim? – Juliancolton | ^Talk 04:22, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

By that logic, there is no way that any topic <50 years could be notable (since notability requires secondary sources). You are using a very obtuse definition of "primary/secondary" here that is not reflective of practice. --MASEM (t) 04:33, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I think this requires careful analysis on a case-by-case basis. If the journalist who wrote the article added any sort of commentary or analysis, the article would meet the literal definition of a secondary source. But you'll find that many newspapers and websites are padded with stories that are nothing more than regurgitation of press releases, speeches and interviews, all of which are primary sources. I like what other people have said about a secondary source transforming a primary source. Now, you can argue that if a writer seeks out and combines content from multiple reliable sources to make a story, the trimming and juxtaposition of sources has transformed the content. But I'll often find an article that contains no new information beyond the single primary source it is based on, not even an opinion about the content, and I do not myself consider that a secondary source. Some will argue that the newspaper has transformed the content by doing fact-checking, even if they didn't talk about that, but I find this a dangerous assumption. And that's not to mention news stories that are actually first-hand accounts of an event by the writer, making it a primary source. So, tldr, it's complicated, but ultimately I agree that the more important question than primary vs. secondary is, "what is the source reliable for, and how is it being used?". Someguy1221 (talk) 04:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Agree totally. But doesn't this make the statement that newspapers are NOT primary sources (their emphasis) an utter nonsense? And the later less dogmatic restatement that there is a generally accepted view that newspapers are secondary sources equally so? Perhaps even more nonsensical in view of the divergence of opinions above? Andrewa (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Say we have a traffic accident, The witness statements are primary sources, but the subsequent police report is a collation and analysis of witness statements resulting in a conclusion as to what actually occurred. Therefore a police report would be a secondary source, and a newspaper report of the accident which relied on the police report would thus be a tertiary source. --Nug (talk) 08:56, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

@Nug: I think you've missed the point of Andrewa's comment. Information in newspapers can be primary, secondary or tertiary, depending on what the information is. There should be no dogmatic statements about what newspapers are; rather there should be advice on when particular content falls into different categories, e.g. an advert or an editorial comment is primary; an article based on several primary sources is secondary; etc. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:57, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with all of this, but as Peter coxhead says, it completely misses the point. It seems to confirm my opinion that the specific statements on which I have asked for comment are a load of unhelpful rubbish.

But frankly I'm getting frustrated because everyone seems to agree on this, but there seems great reluctance to actually say so one way or another. We are instead waffling away on how difficult it can be to decide in specific cases. I know that, and again it seems to back up my opinion. The statement newspapers are NOT primary sources is completely indefensible (check the context if you must, diff supplied right at the top of the section where I first raised it and repeated below). Items in newspapers can be primary sources. Is that so hard?

And the later attempt at a less dogmatic statement of exactly the same misinterpretation of Wikipedia policy by the same user is no better. But one step at a time.

Does anyone other than Ww2censor think that newspapers are NOT primary sources (context)?

And we'll take it from there. My bottom line is to give the poor newbie on whose user talk page these claims have been made some help. It's taking a lot longer than I had hoped but we will get there. Andrewa (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

The more general question

There seems some diversity of opinion above as to what is a primary source as opposed to a secondary source. I think there's some very good stuff above that clarifies the distinction. In particular, I think the point that a single document can be a primary source for some facts and a secondary source for others needs further exploration, and perhaps some tweaks to the policy to reflect this.

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Usman W. Chohan for an ongoing discussion to which exactly this principle seems relevant. Andrewa (talk) 05:45, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

The single most problematic bit of advice on primary vs secondary is this line in WP:PSTS about secondary sources "A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event." Many editors pay too much weight on the second clause (being a step removed) to make the assumption that "third-party =secondary", but the first clause is the more important one that defines the notion of "non-mechanical transformation of information" that we want. I would almost want that line to stick to the first clause, and then add a secodnary statement saying "In many cases, this is transformation of information one step removed from the event, but does not always need to be a third-party." or something like that. --MASEM (t) 07:04, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, good points all, particularly like the way you have identified the problem, and also like the proposed solution. Andrewa (talk) 08:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Andrewa and MASEM are raising very timely and relevant points, and this issue is seen quite often among others users who fixate on arbitrary distinctions between primary and secondary sources, and therefore lose sight of the notability of the subject at hand. Thank you for raising these pertinent points. --عثمان وقاص چوہان 12:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC) User:Uchohan