Talk:Yes Minister/Archive 1

Salaries

Is it really NPOV to refer to civil servants having 'substantial' salaries? Compared to private sector executives, or even the journalists who spend their time attacking civil servants, I suspect that even the most senior officials are modestly paid. sjoh0050

Page names

I've moved this page back to "Yes, Minister", with a bizarre sense of deja vu. Having it at "Yes, (Prime) Minister" helps no-one: it might as well be at a page title that actually means something. This came to light on the List of comedies, where we ended up with two links to the same thing. -- Tarquin

I prefer th page title Yes, (Prime) Minister. Just ebcuase it makes sence. If anyoen did nto undertsand they coudl read the article. - fonzy

if that is what it is called elsewhere, then fair enough. But it doesn't make for pleasant linking. -- Tarquin

Fonzy, please keep in mind the ease of linking to the article (for contributors like you) and the ease of _finding_ it (for readers). --Ed Poor

Well originally it wa 2 artciles. Then someone combineded it. So why not redirect yes, minister and yes,prime minister to yes, (prime) minister. Instead of the other way around. - fonzy

Does it actually matter, given that all the possible other titles (with prime, without prime, with prime in brackets, with comma, without comma) now redirect here? Since the very first line of the article mentions the two titles, I think it's abundantly clear that this is where someone looking for Yes PM wants to be. And Yes, (Prime) Minister is ugly as sin, IMHO. --Bth

Should not the broadcast details of the special transitional eposode (titled 'Party Games') show it as a 90 minute program first broadcast on Mon 17th Dec 1984 rather than a one hour program first broadcast on Thu 27th Dec 1984? - Alan Peakall

Information on the video from Blackstar, BBCShop.com, and a few other websites say 61 minutes. I don't know about the date though. Where'd you get this information? Mrwojo 15:26 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

The date of Monday 17th Dec 1984 for the first broadcast I am sure about from personal recollection. I saw that program *before*, not *while*, taking my Christmas vacation. It is possible that the broadcast was repeated 10 days later. The duration I was less certain about. If video details show a duration of 60 minutes rather than 90, then I am probably in error on that point.

Thanks for the speedy response. As this is my first contribution, I opted to start with a polite query of something extremely uncontroversial.

- Alan Peakall

No problem. I changed it December 17. Mrwojo

Yes,Lord Chancellor

Was there a third series Yes,Lord Chancellor?...I had read once that there was but there's no mention here.--Louis E./le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 15:20, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, there wasn't. One of the stars or writers may have joked about it at some point, but no such series existed. Bonalaw 14:28, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It does seem, though, that "Yes, Lord Chancellor" is the title of a biography of Claud Schuster, 1st Baron Schuster. Proteus (Talk) 15:05, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Was that episode really named "The Patron to the Arts" or should it be "The Patron of the Arts"? Supermagle

Dorothy Wainwrirght appeared in the first series of Yes Prime Minister making her debut in the episode The Key Penrithguy 13:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment

I am amazed there is no mention of this phrase in the article. I would have added it myself, but I'm not certain what the orginal form was: ("You may think that" / "you may say that" / "you might think that" / "You might say that" / etc, all appear to have equal prominence on the web, and the only site that looked reasonably definitve about it doesn't appear to work in Firefox (I dont' have any other browser to try it in). Thryduulf 22:17, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The phrase came from House of Cards. We even have an article on it at YMSTICPC. --Mrwojo 01:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The diaries of James Hacker

I was wondering whether there should be a mention of the publication of the diaries of James Hacker (a clever way of publishing the script of the Yes Prime Minister series). The ISBN for anyone trying to find out more about it is 0 563 20773 6 --Matthew Dingley 21:46, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. If I'm honest, I actually remember the books more than the series itself. --Bonalaw 08:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Media Formats

This article should include information on the various incarnations of Yes (Prime) Minister. The diaries are mentioned above but there's also the duplication across television and radio. Do the first broadcast dates refer to the TV or radio formats? And what formats are still available?

See e.g. the BBC Shop [1] (search for "Yes Minister"). --Valentinian 21:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Is it also worth saying that as the series is often repeated on BBC Radio 7, the radio episodes are often available to be listened to using the BBC's Listen Again service? --Matthew Dingley 15:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

BBC FOUR often repeats episodes of Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister. DTR 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable Quotes

(When a YM/YPM Wikiquote page is created, this info can be transfered from here)

Party Games (YM Christmas Special) December 17, 1984. Final Scene - Humphrey's office. Waiting for the results of the party caucus vote to find out who was elected to be the new Prime Minister. The phone rings, Humphrey takes the call.

Sir Humphrey: "I will let him know." (hangs-up)

Jim Hacker: "Is it..is it..me?"

Sir Humphrey: "Yes, Prime Minister".

69.39.172.107 18:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

I won't re-revert the info box, except to note that besides the picture being too big, Nigel Hawthorne's name is now split over two lines (at least on my monitor), whereas in my version it read as one. Chris 42 11:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The current size of image will need to stay, otherwise Nigel Hawthorne's name will again be split over two lines (at the moment on my monitor his name is only on the one line). Figaro 04:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If you try the image syntax [[[Image:Yes-Minister-DVD-1.jpg|Yes-Minister-DVD-1.jpg|220px|thumb|center]]] (ignore the outer brackets), the picture is reduced and Hawthorne's name stays intact. I haven't updated the page with it: just thought you might have a look. :-) Chris 42 13:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have now fixed up the infobox image with the reduced size. Figaro 00:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Then you didn't fix it very well. Nigel Hawthorne's name is still split across two lines. Comment written by 20.133.0.14 at 11:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your rudeness.

As Nigel Hawthorne's name is still okay on my monitor, you obviously have a different type of monitor to my monitor. I can't fix the problem to suit every monitor. Anyway, I was not the person who reduced the size of the image (please see discussion above). Figaro 07:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

4 minute sketch written by Thatcher, or Ingham?

According to the criticism section "Thatcher wrote a four-minute sketch which she performed with the show's two principal actors", whereas the Bernard Ingham article claims that "It was Ingham, not, as popularly supposed, Thatcher, who was responsible for writing the Yes, Minister sketch which she performed in public with Paul Eddington and Nigel Hawthorne."

Anyone know which is correct?

Kfor 09:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The Comma

Is not the correct title for the first series "Yes Minister" (without the comma)? I believe it was only "Yes, Prime Minister" that ever had the comma. Unless there are objections I will be moving the page.

Yes, Minister is the show's official (and grammatically correct) title as designated by the IMDb. It's true that there is no comma shown on screen, but it is implied in the title sequence with the separation of the two words by the graphic of Big Ben. Chris 42 11:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Chris, but the title is officially 'Yes Minister', IMDB are wrong to list the show in this way. For proof you only need look at a DVD cover or even better the BBCs own Comedy guide to find that it is always spelt without the comma. I would agree with moving the page and redirecting 'Yes, Minister' to it. ~~ Peteb16 11:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It's okay. I always ignore any DVD titles anyway (just look at the debate re. Superman vs. Superman: The Movie) and it's true that the on screen title is ambiguous, as I outlined above. The IMDb also lists House, M.D. where no comma appears in that title sequence as well. I've no objection to it being moved. Chris 42 11:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Moved from Yes, Minister to Yes Minister. —Centrx→talk • 04:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Yes, Minister → Yes Minister … Rationale: The offical title for series does not have a comma. —Kronecker 06:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support. Apparently IMDb is wrong (they are not 100% authoritative and not official). --Dhartung | Talk 06:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support, definitely does not have a comma on the BBC pages regarding the show. —Stormie 09:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support --McGeddon 09:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- Peteb16 09:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support IMDb is wrong on this one. Chris 42 14:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Support The One00
• Strong Support. I looked at BBC sites, DVD & video covers, and stills of opening credits: no comma. --SigPig 05:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Updated IMDB with correct title

Just as a note, I successfully updated the IMDb page to reflect the correct title. It now reads "Yes Minister". Chris 42 20:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Minor Characters "imitating" real life characters

Hi there.

In "The Challenge", (Series 3, Episode 2) the council leader of Thames Marsh, Ben Stanley - could this possibly be a reflection of Ken Livingstone? Apart from BW's description of him "The one that nobody likes"(!), the similarity of Ken and Ben (not Kev and Bev, from a certain advert! ;o) ) and the Livingston/Stanley connection (I presume), the actor's portrayal of the voice seemed ... rather familiar.

Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 00:25, 25 July 2006 (talk • contribs) Salzella22 (UTC)

Article tidy

Hi folks, You may have noticed I've tidied some of the references today. Thanks to User:Chris 42 for expanding my 'opening titles' start. I need your thoughts on the following:

• do we really need all three DVD covers, given that they're practically identical? I propose losing series 2 & 3 covers. If that leaves a void, then perhaps it can be replaced with a limited number of appropriate screenshots?
  • As an afterthought, we should lose the season 1 cover from the infobox too, and replace it with the title card. Then we can use a still of the caricatures in the 'Openning title' section, which is more illustrative of what that section is discussing.
• there are a couple of unsourced statements in the 'Critical reaction' section.
• a section on the books of the scripts. Perhaps including DVD releases. There are a few BBC Radio Collection cassettes/CDs -- were these actually broadcast on BBC radio? Are they just the TV show, or where they rerecorded?

Any other suggestions about what needs doing to improve this? The JPS^{talk to me} 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would be in favour of adding the caricatures and moving the title card, providing a smaller version of just the DVD Series One cover is moved to a DVD section. Chris 42 22:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have just moved the title card image to the infobox, and positioned the DVD cover image for the first series to another position on the page - as well as moving the DVD cover image for the third series to another position on the page. I have deleted the DVD cover image for the second series. I do not think that 2 DVD cover images are too many. I donated the images to Wikipedia before there was a title card image - this was the reason why the first series DVD cover was originally used for the infobox (which I also created). Figaro 22:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. I stil don't think we need two DVD covers, though. One would be sufficient, which will go in the 'DVD releases' section, which should appear shortly. They all are effectively the same: three men is suits! I wonder if it's useful to have a screenshot from the Thatcher sketch, since it has some attention? The JPS^{talk to me} 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I had been intending to keep only the first series DVD image, and put the image for the third series DVD image onto the actors' pages - but the DVD images were removed from the actors' pages as soon as I put them onto the pages. I have made another attempt to put the third series DVD cover image onto Nigel Hawthorne's page as part of his 'television' section and, if the image is allowed to remain on Nigel Hawthorne's page, I will remove it from the "Yes Minister" page. If the image is not allowed to remain on Nigel Hawthorne's page, then I would like to also keep it on the "Yes Miniter" page because I think that the photo on the cover is to nice to lose. Figaro 23:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, well I removed them from the actors pages because it goes against our fair use policy. Technically, we shouldn't be using screenshots of their characters on the acctors' pages, but many people justify that so long as the show is discussed. The DVD cover, however, is pushing it... I'm afraid that being a "nice" photo isn't a sufficient rationale. BTW, remember tha all fair use images should have a fair use rationale on their image description pages. The JPS^{talk to me} 23:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would still like to keep both the first series DVD image and the third series DVD image (and I did delete the second series DVD image). As I mentioned, I will remove the third series DVD image from the "Yes Minister" page if the image is allowed to remain on Nigel Hawthorne's page. Figaro 23:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What is your rationale? Remember that we have a policy concerning the use of fair use images: Wikipedia:Fair use. The JPS^{talk to me} 23:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't see a reason for having two DVD covers. Until the "DVD releases" section is created, they are at the moment not illustrating any text. When the section does appear, I don't think that enough could be written to cover the height of both pictures, which would leave an awkward amount of white space. However, I could be swayed on this if they are reduced in size, and the second image is of the Yes, Prime Minister Series 1 DVD — that would then be representative of both series. Chris 42 11:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Have now added the Scarfe pic, DVD section and two DVD covers as per above. I would have preferred it if I could get the two cover pics to float right horizontally, but I was unable to achieve this. If anyone knows the correct markup, then feel free. I've left the YM: Series 3 pic on Nigel Hawthorne's page as requested. Hope it's all okay. Chris 42 19:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for supplying the Scarfe pic. It's great. Thank you also for leaving the DVD cover image on Nigel Hawthorne's page - I appreciate it very much. Figaro 22:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I've now floated the YM DVD to the left. I think it looks better, the only downside is I can't get the bullets to display! Chris 42 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Vast improvement! Good work, JPS. Chris 42 21:12, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Figaro, I was quite happy with the gallery, as stated above. Chris 42 21:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would have been happy with the DVD gallery too, but JPS has continually and persistently demanded that only one DVD image should be used to illustrate the series – life is too short for it to be taken over by the sort of pointless arguments, fuss and bother which has accompanied the second series DVD cover image having been used, so I decided to acquiesce to his demands about it – to try to avoid further conflict. "Yes Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" are among my favourite television viewing (hence my having these on DVD), and I want my thoughts of the series to be enjoyable – not something which is clouded through pointless and trivial arguments. Figaro 22:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It was JPS who added the gallery... Chris 42 11:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"Demands" and "arguments" is rather hyperbolic. I thought we were having a discussion. I did ask you to bear in mind our fair use policy, however. We should be able to get away with two images in the DVD section on this article (especially since it is acknowledging two separate series, and the section is about the DVDs), but the covers shouldn't be in the actors pages. Similar discussions have taken place in the past about magazine covers. The JPS^{talk to me} 11:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this comment, as it seems to be unreferenced and uses weasel words:

Thatcher read the show as an indictment of the civil service, while others see it as an indictment of the British parliamentary system. Many agree that it is a combination of both. Bob talk 18:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

DVD covers should only be used on articles or sections about the DVD where the DVD is discussed, not as a useful picture of the actor. ed g2s • talk 11:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Article Tidy II

Well, I reckon we're just about ready to submit for GA status? Is there anything that is missing? At the moment, the thing that I think needs looking at is the paragraph about the proposed CCTA episode. I can't find any online sources for it (and the Wikipedia mirrors make searching difficult). It was added on 30 March 2006 by User:193.133.92.229 [2]. The JPS^{talk to me} 15:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, it's probably better to move it here for the time being, as with the comment above - unless sourced, it's paragraphs such as that which lose an article good status. If anybody can source this information, feel free to return it. Bob talk 15:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the text:A rumour amongst ex-Whitehall staff suggests that in 1992/3 the Central Computer and Telecommunications Agency (a now defunct UK government body that provided advice and support for government computer projects) proposed that a single new episode be made with its support, incorporating some computer security educational material. The opportunity to make use of the word 'Hacker' must have seemed irresistible. The project was apparently agreed in principle between the BBC and the CCTA, but was blocked by the Cabinet Office and Security Service (MI5).

Yeah, it's probably best to remove it. We also have "...the writers later said they considered Hacker a centrist Conservative." Does anyone have a source for this...? I wonder if those script books have any forwards? The JPS^{talk to me} 16:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Each of the books features an Editor's Note, but these simply support the notion that the diaries are real and make no mention of any party affiliation or political viewpoint. Chris 42 18:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Episode articles

All of the first series' episodes are now done. I'll be taking a short break and then hope to continue with the others. Chris 42 19:45, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Update: have just finished "The Whisky Priest", and have therefore passed the half-way mark. See Talk:Open Government for some thoughts on a few recent edits. Chris 42 17:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving trivia

Sorry JPS, I disagree about moving the cat reference from the "Trivia" section. Wikipedia:Manual of style#Bulleted items states, "Do not mix sentence styles; use all complete sentences, or use all sentence fragments". This makes the character list uneven and in any case, is not relevant to the character himself. "Trivia" is really the only place for it, IMO. Chris 42 11:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What I was actually trying to do was dissolve the trivia altogether. Since they tend not to go down too well, and it is another 'list' style section (criticised in the peer review), I thought it best to kill two birds with one stone. The comment about the computer game could be moved into the new combined 'remake and legacy' section, and the Australian visit into the 'critical reception'. The comment about the British Pound might be expanded elsewhere, and I'm not sure if the low listenership of Radio 3 was such a big deal.

The 'characters' section is another list needing attention... do we need the section? Perhaps the 'plot' does the job? It has everything there in context. And perhaps 'Humphrey the cat' could be resheltered into the comments about Thatcher, for cohesion? The JPS^{talk to me} 12:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now having read the peer review reply (should have done that first!), I would suggest making a "Characters of Yes Minister" list article (similar to, for example, Characters of Lost — although that one contains perhaps too much detail), which could then spin off to other articles as appropriate. Obviously the three principals already have their own articles: it would be a matter of judgement as to which of the others are similarly worthy. IMO, Sir Arnold Robinson, Frank Weisel and Sir Desmond Glazebrook are candidates from YM, while Dorothy Wainwright had sufficient screen time in YPM. But then, on the other hand, perhaps there aren't enough characters to warrant a list article? In that case, I think the current section should be converted into prose. That would only leave the DVD and book sections, and I think they should stay in list format. Chris 42 15:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with your conclusions about the prose for the character sections, and the DVD/book section remaining in list form. I also doubt that that list is long enough for a separate article. I'm unsure, and not particularly bothered, about character pages for the minor characters. The JPS^{talk to me} 16:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and what are your thoughts on the ordering of sections? Should we move Critical reaction down, so it comes after what it is reacting to? Do you happen to have any information on the 1982 special? It's positioned quite odd at the moment: it's chronologically out, and corerence suggests that it's related to Thatcher (which I don't think it is). Perhaps it should be moved the the episode list? The JPS^{talk to me} 16:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Have just converted the "Other characters" to prose, removed the the three principals (as they already have enough coverage)and expanded the section slightly. Will get back to you with my thoughts on your other points shortly. Chris 42 16:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that "Critical reception" should be moved between "Open titles and music" and "Remakes and legacy". I don't have any info on the 1982 Special. I would probably add a to that — or even delete it — until some more concrete evidence is found. Chris 42 16:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Have moved "Critical reception" per the above. It seems to make sense. Hope it's okay. Chris 42 19:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it by seconds -- I had an edit conflict with you, doing exactly the same thing. The other dodgy thing left, surely now is the comment about being a Centrist Conservative. The JPS^{talk to me} 19:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that! I've just deleted the Centrist claim. It can always be reinstated if a source is found. Chris 42 19:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

More peer review comments

What do we think about the most recent comments in the peer review? Does anyone have any more info we can use to expand it. The sources have the exact dates of the series, but I was cautious of making it a copyvio (there's only so many ways "sixteen episodes of two series...." can be phrased. The JPS^{talk to me} 06:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)