Talk:List of pioneers in computer science

Early Posts

Much thanks to Dzonatas. This section needed to be broken out from the main Computer Science topic. --Somewherepurple

I instituted a merge, but I'm not familiar enough with these people: J.C.R. Licklider, Jay Forrester, Norbert Wiener, Vannevar Bush to add them into the table correctly. I hope someone gets to that sometime. Radagast83 05:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ken Thompson! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.145.27.163 (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Here's a link explaining their significance in computing science:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pioneers/

Cheers! -Shadowfax0 (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Ivan Sutherland should be added (Known for Sketchpad, considered by many to be the creator of Computer Graphics) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Sutherland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.67.87.133 (talk) 04:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Link to Computer History Museum

I think an external link to the CHM is germane. It's a non-profit 501(c)(3) org, covering the subject of this Wikipedia article. Board of Trustees looks reputable. Any opinions that say the CHM should not be linked in? -- Iterator12n ^Talk 22:57, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The issue was not whether or not it should be linked in, the appropriateness of the link content itself was not the issue. As stated in the edit summary, the issue was it was added by a CHM staff member who over the past four or so months was spamming links to their own site across wikipedia pages. In fact, that account's only contributions were adding links to his own site across Wikipedia. That is violation of WP:EL and WP:COI. That is why all of that person's edits were reverted, as is routinely done for such violations. And looking further at this article, following Wikipedia's EL policy, truthfully those other links in the EL should be moved to supporting references in the list as well. I.E. content from those sites being used as references, if those sites truly contain material beneficial material for the article. This article contains zero references at the moment.--Marty Goldberg (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Will respond later, GTG. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 03:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Back. My first reaction is, So what if a good link is added for the wrong reason, it still is a good link. However, my second reaction is, You're right regarding the lack of references - particulalry, by what authority are these people listed as of pioneers? Without references, the list constitutes a work of original research, violating WP:OR. Conclusion: The article should be improved by providing for each entry a pointer to the authority that judges the particular person to be a pioneer. In that way, the CHM may come back as one of the authorities in the subject matter. With a little bit of time later (and if nobody else before me does the job) I'll go through the list and provide for each entry the source(s) that justify the entry. Will delete any entries without a recognized authority behind it. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 02:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Order of entries

What a good system to be able to click on a button to re-order the entries in the table.--TedColes (talk) 11:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Names for consideration

Names I would like to suggest to discuss for inclusion in 'computer pioneers'.

Charles Babbage originated the concept of a digital programmable computer, the analytical engine in 1837.

Ada Lovelace regarded as the first to recognise the full potential of Charles Babbage's analytical engine and the first computer programmer for the work done crating the first program intended to execute on the analytical engine.

Jay W. Forrester coincident-current magnetic core memory, project leader of Whirlwind

Freddie Williams and Tom Kilburn "Williams tube" memory

Dudley Allen Buck inventor of cryotron, content addressable memory, Ferroelectric ram (see my talk page re: my interest in this subject)

Marcian Hoff Intel 4004

Ken Olsen co-founder Digital Equipment Corp., key person in development of TX-0 computer

James Reid Anderson - co-inventor of the acoustic coupler; founder of Information Terminals, which would be renamed Verbatim disk drive manufacturer;

If anyone knows who to credit for development / perfection of magnetic-drum memory and/or magnetic tape memory, that name might be appropriate for inclusion on this page.

Eccles and Jordan for the Eccles-Jordan flip-flop.

Harry Huskey Standards Western Automatic Computer

AlanDewey (talk) 16:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

What about Edward Feigenbaum ?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 3omarz (talk • contribs) 17:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Changes to Boole and Minski

Marvin Minski was born in 1927, not much of an achievement. I changed Minski's date to the founding of the AI Lab/Project MAC, which is what the table mentions. Likewise, George Boole was fifteen years old in 1830. I changed the date to the publication dates of his works on logic. 75.15.115.245 (talk) 17:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Gates

Shouldn't Bill Gates be on this list?74.178.186.35 (talk) 02:08, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Gates is not a pioneer in Computer Science. Though he is a significant figure in the development of computers for the public (I don't know what Wikipedia list, if any, there is for that). Pioneers in Computer Science has to be early on, 1960 or even earlier. Lentower (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh,well to me he is,so.74.178.186.35 (talk) 15:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I came to this talk page expecting someone to argue for Gates, Wozniak, or Jobs... or even Torvalds. Sure enough... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.7.50.250 (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Bryan Cantrill (Dtrace)

I'm not sure that Bryan Cantrill should be on this list; I don't believe that DTrace is as notable/important to computer science as the rest of the achievements listed. I'm removing him from the list. Blelbach (talk) 05:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

al-Khwārizmī a computer scientist?

I don't think that al-Khwārizmī qualifies as a pioneer in computer science. Computer science relies on a number of earlier developments and isn't alone in using algorithms. --TedColes (talk) 10:49, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I think al-Khwārizmī has an indirect influence on computer science for his concept of the algorithm. I'm not saying that he made big contributions, however, algorithms are still important in computer science for solving problems. Also his introduction to the Hindu-Arabic numeral system (developed by Indian mathematicians), which introduces "0" and "1" to the western world has made a significant influence. You may refute against the second point, however, I think as long as we have a reliable source, that should suffice (which it has). Ninmacer20 (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

General Computational Limitations and Parallel Programing

I suggest adding the following people to the list:

Gordon E. Moore developed Moore's Law which empirically showed the increasing speed of computation technology (1965)

Rolf Landauer derived Landauer's principle, giving the thermodynamic limitations of computing systems (1961)

Gene Amdahl developed parallel scaling and Amdahl's law which shows the practical limits of parallelizing a given problem (1967)

John L. Gustafson developed weak scaling and Gustafson's law which helped to precipitate the parallel supercomputing revolution (1988)

— Rememberlands (talk) 18:18, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorting of the table

Isn't is a pity that the inventor of the first working general programmable computer (Konrad Zuse) is last in the table?

I would like to see the table by default sorted in timeline order. Schily (talk) 12:44, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Schily, I have a few thoughts on this:

1. On the practical side, maintaining the list will be a harder if it is sorted chronologically. There is always the ambiguity of when to have the pioneer placed; his birth, death, most famous work, first work of note, etc.? This criterion must be well defined and consistently applied.
2. Similarly, sorting by last name cannot be done directly in these lists. If we change to default sort by date, we cannot get the information on how the list sorts out by last names; it is explicitly a loss of information to sort by time, since at best we could only get it to re-sort by first name.
3. On the side of consistency with the rest of wikipedia, most lists are sorted alphabetically.
4. Tables look perhaps the cleanest if the left-most column is already sorted.
5. Finally, there is already an excellent Timeline of computing, so this page does not need to duplicate that material. I will add a link to that in the see also section.

—Rememberlands (talk) 04:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I concur with User:Rememberlands. The table is sortable. Chose your poison. Juan Riley (talk) 00:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I also agree with Rememberlands, for the reasons outlined above. Ry's the Guy ^{(talk|contribs)} 09:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Problems in al-Khwārizmī Section

It currently reads

The term "algorithm" is derived from the algorism, the technique of performing arithmetic with Hindu-Arabic numerals developed by al-Khwarizmi. Both "algorithm" and "algorism" are derived from the Latinized forms of al-Khwarizmi's name, Algoritmi and Algorismi, respectively. His Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing (Arabic: الكتاب المختصر في حساب الجبر والمقابلة‎‎ al-Kitāb al-mukhtaṣar fī ḥisāb al-jabr wal-muqābala) is a mathematical book written approximately 830 CE. The word Algebra is also derived from the title of his book and it is believed to be the first book on the subject. The notion of zero is found for the first time in this book. However, it is believed he had learned the notion of zero from Indians through his travels to India. With zero, he was able to invent the systematic Indo-Arabic number (decimal) system. The word algorithm was given in Europe to a method he called "Attarigolkharazmi" (Akharazmi's Method) for taking square root of whole numbers in decimal system. The method is based on first identity ((a+b)^2 = a^2 + b^2, where a= 10^n, n>1). The word "method" was dropped in time and the word algorithm referred to this method of taking square root. As more elaborate ways of doing complex things, in a mechanized way, through mathematical reasoning were discovered/invented, they were all called algorithms. Certain algorithms, such as deriving the greatest common divisor existed way before Alkharazmi (Greek time). However, Europeans were so impressed by Kharazmi's method that his name replaced the world "method".

I addition to being inordinately long, I think it has some errors. That "identity" is false, as a=100, b=2 gives (100+2)^2 = (102)^2 = 1040 while 100^2 + 2^2 = 1004. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.236.221.138 (talk) 14:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Sheryl Sandberg?

Sure she is accomplished but she is NOT a pioneer in computer science. 152.131.14.9 (talk) 14:56, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

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The first X to achieve Y is not noteworthy

I've noticed that one user has added significant changes (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pioneers_in_computer_science&type=revision&diff=803332873&oldid=799334223) for a lot of achievements that aren't noteworthy in my opinion. Most of them read in the form, the "The first X to do Y", where Y is something that a lot of people have achieved before. A common example is "The first female engineer to do ...". While those achievements are important in their own right, I don't think that makes them pioneers in computer science in general, although some of those in that list might be.

An example of an entry which I think shouldn't be here: "Named third (and first female) Chief Technology Officer of the United States of America (USCTO), succeeding Todd Park."

Just to be clear, I have nothing against entries with women such as Ada Lovelace, as most people that have studied computer science are likely to have heard about.

TLDR: Undo those changes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gajop (talk • contribs) 05:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Gajop: all of the people added seem to either be blue-linked or to be women in red, which suggests that they are notable. Being among the first women to achieve something substantial, in a male-dominated field, indicates a pioneer. If that field is computer science, then the person belongs in the list. Ergo, keep. Zazpot (talk) 13:02, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Should be very selective here, as this is not a male/female list or a 'male dominated field' list, but a computer pioneer list. For example, the entry mentioned above, "Named third (and first female) Chief Technology Officer of the United States of America (USCTO), succeeding Todd Park" seems to me way too tangential for this list and anything like that should be removed. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, this should be a list of people who had extraordinary contributions to computer science, and should not contain any biases towards race, gender, religion, etc. Basically just a list of people that left a lot of influence and shaped computer science as we know it today. For more specific lists which display list of female achievements, we have this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing Gajop (talk) 13:40, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Here's a refinement of my comment above: the entry should be kept if the person concerned features in any of the lists below, in conjunction with computing work, or in any other relevant list of computer science pioneers published in WP:RS:

• Gürer, Denise (June 2002). "Pioneering Women In Computer Science" (PDF). SIGCSE Bulletin. 34 (2): 175–183.
• "Pioneering Women in Computing Technology". The Ada Project, Carnegie Mellon University.
• Sparkes, Matthew (14 October 2014). "The female pioneers of the technological age". The Telegraph.
• Alderman, Naomi (13 October 2014). "Women in computing: the 60s pioneers who lit up the world of coding". The Guardian.
• Parkinson, Hannah Jane (13 October 2015). "On Ada Lovelace Day, here are seven other pioneering women in tech".

Zazpot (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Some of those lists (especially https://www.women.cs.cmu.edu/ada/Resources/Women/) are large, and almost all of them exclusively mention women. If you want such lists, again, I suggest this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing . This list should be selective and all people in the list should be judged equally. I think at this point we're clearly at a disagreement. How are disputes like this resolved on wikipedia? Gajop (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Gajop: well, first of all, there is WP:NOHURRY :) I have already invited some editors with relevant experience to comment here; perhaps they will. If not, then there are various options; see WP:DR. I would suggest leaving things for at least a day or two, to see if other editors chime in and broad consensus can be achieved. If that fails, then you can always invoke one of the options under WP:CONTENTDISPUTE, if you wish. WP:RFC might be the most appropriate one here, as clearly the list contains notable entries that should appear in Wikipedia; we're just at odds about where and how to best achieve that. At its best, an RfC might come up with a great solution that neither of us have thought of, and that satisfies both of us :) (Though at worst, it might invite suggestions or actions that satisfy neither of us; it's always a gamble. Hence my suggestion to wait a few days in the first instance.) Zazpot (talk) 16:42, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree that being "the first woman to do X" doesn't really constitute a pioneer in computer science--although they could be a pioneer in breaking gender barriers--as the recognition should go to the first person or group who made the breakthrough regardless of gender/race/orientation. The current list does include women who made pioneering contributions, such as Turing Awardees Barbara Liskov, Shafi Goldwasser, and Frances Allen, and I've added more as I've found them. Entries for "first woman to do X" are indeed better suited for the Women in computing page. --Blueclaw (talk) 17:11, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

These are my thoughts as well. Would it be better if we linked to the Women in computing page from here? It's related and technically also a list. Gajop (talk) 04:25, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

That's a great idea-- people can still get that information without diluting this list with entries that don't actually fit the page description. I've just added it to the "See also" section. Should we go ahead remove the "first woman to do X" entries and add them to the Women in computing page? --Blueclaw (talk) 02:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

@Blueclaw: being the first woman to achieve a specific thing can indeed be notable, especially in fields where women were actively prevented from making achievements. Such an achievement is arguably doubly pioneering: not only overcoming the difficulties of the field, but also the active opposition of one's peers. So, no, neither you nor anyone else should remove such entries. Zazpot (talk) 21:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Zazpot:I'm not arguing that these women aren't pioneers, just that their contributions break social barriers rather than research ground. The Women in computing page exists as a showcase for these types of contributions. I support removing these entries from this list because they're not primarily research contributions, which is what this page appears to be about and what our readers are likely interested in when they visit this page.--Blueclaw (talk) 23:17, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Meet criterium?

I'm not sure if several recent additions meet the criterium at the top of the article. "This article presents a list of individuals who helped in the creation, development and imagining of what computers and electronics could do." For instance, does this apply to all six original programmers of the ENIAC? For instance, none of them have an entry in Milestones in Computer Science and Information Technology by Edward Reilly. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 18:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Citing a source (Reilly) that may be biased is not necessarily conclusive:

Exciting inventions, innovative technology, human interaction, and intriguing politics fill computing history. However, the recorded history is mainly composed of male achievements and involvements, even though women have played substantial roles. This situation is not unusual. Most science fields are notorious for excluding, undervaluing, or overlooking the accomplishments of their female scientists [1, 16, 17, 22]. As J.A.N. Lee points out, it is up to the historians and others to remedy this imbalance...

— Denise Gürer

HTH, Zazpot (talk) 21:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

What makes you think that Rielly's book is biased against women? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 00:14, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

None of the six ENIAC programmers have entries in the much larger Encyclopedia of Computer Science by Ralston and Reilly either. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 00:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

List of pioneers in computer science or list of successful women in computer science?

I am under the impression that in the last few years somebody added a long string of names, largely irrelevant to computer science, which hold the sole distinction of being female: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pioneers_in_computer_science&type=revision&diff=805664510&oldid=390493835

Consider for example Marissa Mayer, who "was the first female engineer hired at Google", or Maria Klawe who "was the first woman to become President of the Harvey Mudd College since its founding in 1955", or Megan Smith, "named third USCTO [...] succeeding Todd Park".

They might be scientists, I have my doubts they are distinguished scientists and I am fairly certain they are not pioneers of computer science.

I recommend reverting these changes, as they can only damage the credibility of women in science.

Start, instead, with real pioneers in computer science, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhia_Cousot, who single-handedly invented abstract interpretation together with Patrick Cousot (over 6000 citations for https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=512973), or Hanne Riis Nielson (https://scholar.google.it/citations?user=5U0XVHUAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao), or Mariangiola Dezani-Ciancaglini (a student of Corrado Bohem), or ...

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.237.245.9 (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

• I agree. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Please see our above discussion under "The first X to achieve Y is not noteworthy". Yes I think we should revert (Ada Lovelace could stay though) and I think we have a consensus now. Gajop (talk) 04:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Grace Hopper should certainly stay too. Margaret Hamilton - maybe. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:20, 18 October 2017 (UTC)