Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools

If a school's name is changed by the school board (with no new name selected yet, nor with a date of name change determined yet), should that be mentioned in the article?

Please see Talk:Robert E. Lee High School (San Antonio) and the talk page history for a debate over whether including the fact the school's name will change as per school board order (even though the new name and the date on when the name will change are not yet determined) should be included in the article at this time (currently).

It is important because inexperienced Wikipedia editors attempting to update the article may possibly have their edits reverted, and we need to determine whether this should be done.

Please discuss the matter here: Talk:Robert E. Lee High School (San Antonio)

@John from Idegon:

Common sense in applying featured school criteria

This is going nowhere. Discussions about individual schools belong on the article talk pages

I suggest that it be stated that one should use common sense in applying featured school criteria, for the following reasons. The goal of cleaning up all school articles on the basis of featured article criteria may give way to selective application of unrealistic standards. Most schools under this project do not have the prominence or reader interest (perhaps even literacy) in their area that featured schools enjoy. In most cases, retreat and service programs, along with other extracurriculars, get little or no media coverage, but they may be credibly claimed as characteristics of the school, listed only on the school's website. Please note the special characteristics of the five schools that have reached featured status (followed by the number of footnotes on their website). Also note, added later in this section, a review of the nature of the citations in Wikipedia articles for these schools. Amador Valley High School – its size (2500) enables it to excel in extracurriculars; it is in the third wealthiest city in the country with a large pool of interested newspapers readers. (122) The Avery Coonley School – an experimental school serving gifted children (123) Baltimore City College – a magnate school for the whole area of Baltimore, the third oldest active public high school in the country (143) School for Creative and Performing Arts – an extremely selective school, the first school in the country to combine a full range of arts studies  (151) Stuyvesant High School – a very selective, large school with 3387 students, that has produced 4 nobel laureates (145) The Judd School (First UK school FA!) – an historic, high-performing specialist school, among the best in England (111) Jzsj (talk) 07:01, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Jzsj. Wikipedia articles can only be created based on material that is available about them and can be verified in reliable sources; it's not a question of giving way to selective application of unrealistic standards. or only choosing to bring prominent schools up to FA standards. WP:FA is a measure of article quality, not of the standing of its subject. Articles are reviewed as featured article candidates for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to our featured article criteria. The specific features of a school or college, its notability, or the actual number of footnotes are not especially taken into consideration. By virtue of their completeness and scope however, Featured Articles are often somewhat longer than most other articles about schools. If you have a particular school article in mind that you would like to see promoted to FA, please feel free to work on it and let us know - we can probably help. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC) I see little chance of the schools like Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School in the Cristo Rey Network having enough media coverage to be good or featured schools. I am suggesting that they not be held to the featured school criteria that have been made more rigorous by the Schools Project. The statement (on the Talk:Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School page) that I question is from an administrator who says: "I find your notion that it is OK for articles that are not yet Good or Featured articles to deviate from our established standards to be just plain wrong". Here the "our established standards" are the non-official, more rigorous standards proposed by the Schools Project. If you read the give and take I've had, mainly with two members of the Schools Project, at Talk:Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School, then you may understand the cause of my concern. I would like to know that school websites are acceptable for ordinary citations, like the retreat program and service program which they removed. Also that I needn't include a complete demographics table in a school article, when it grosses out the rest in the article, and all that's relevant is that over half of the school is of Hispanic origin. Also, common sense inclusion of the category "poverty-related organizations" seems helpful, since the subcategory "Cristo Rey Network" says nothing in itself about the clientele of the school. I see now that this discussion might have better been opened on the "Article guidelines" page of the Schools project, but I would like to restore some of the removed material (with clear reference to the school's website); I see such material (mentioned above) as factual, not promotional. @Kudpung: Jzsj (talk) 17:26, 29 January 2018 (UTC) Examples from featured schools Wikipedia is less restrictive in its policies and less narrow in its interpretations than are those who propose to hold all schools to supposed criteria for featured schools. Their more restrictive policies and narrower interpretations are found at Talk:Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School. You will find evidence in the citations below of the more "common sense" understanding of Wikipedia policy even toward these very specially endowed, featured article schools. Citations for the featured Amador Valley High School. (Footnote numbers are given in parenthesis.) The school district's own announcement of its new principle is cited from the local weekly. (1) Student statistics are briefly summarized rather than a demographics list being given. (2) Its own school district report is referenced for the statement: “Performance results for 2008 show Amador Valley with an Academic Performance Index (API) of 10 on a 10-point scale.” (3) Thirty four of the citations in the article are to the Pleasanton Weekly, which hardly has a neutral point of view as it writes to appeal to its small town readership, and is not a “mainstream newspaper” as mentioned in Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Its editor/correspondent Jeb Bing, who covers the school for the weekly, would not likely pass a very critical NPOV check. But please note the tolerance of Wikipedia for other reliable sources, as distinguished from what the verifiability policy calls Sources that are usually not reliable. What I consider a minor point, but likely not admissable for the Schools Project: The statement “Amador Valley and the school district won national recognition” is sourced only to the school's report on its plan and to the local newspaper which doesn't explicitly mention Amador High as recipient of the recognition. (30,14) Check these citations, including the school's own website, to see what verification you find of Teacher of the Year. (41-45) What sports we're to look under for these championships are not mentioned and the references lead to the school's website. (54) Jzsj (talk) 19:37, 3 February 2018 (UTC) Citations for the featured Avery Coonley School. If the criteria applied to Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School were applied to Coonley, the whole section on Extracurricular activities would be removed as referenced to the school website and going well beyond what is contained on that website. Also, the statement that the Chess Club “won the first-place trophy in the Naperville Chess Tournament in 2009” might more precisely mention that this was in “the kindergarten – grade one flight”. (85,98) Jzsj (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2018 (UTC) Citations for the featured Baltimore City College. The statement that it finished eighth in the nation in football is referenced only to the school's yearbook. (84) This section from a featured school might dictate more tolerance on the referencing of school activities. The only citation given is the school's yearbook, which I suggest is only marginally different from contemporary accounts from the school's website or newspaper: Baltimore City College offers more than 20 student clubs and organizations. These include chapters of national organizations such as the National Honor Society (established at the school in 1927) and Quill and Scroll. Service clubs include the Red Cross Club and Campus Improvement Association.[87] Other activities include the Drama Club, which produces an annual play, the Art Club, Model UN, Band, Dance, and One City One Book, an organization that invites the entire school community to read one book selected by faculty and invites the author of the book for a reading, discussion, and question and answer period.[87] In 2007, Pulitzer Prize winner, MacArthur Fellow, and novelist Edward P. Jones discussed his book Lost in the City. The school store is operated by students and managed by the Student Government Association. One of City College's most notable academic teams is the It's Academic team which participates on It's Academic, a local television show.[87] No citation is given for the following statements: In recent years, the team has advanced to final rounds at the Harvard Invitational Tournament and the National Forensic League National Tournament. Baltimore City College debate has sent multiple policy debate teams to the Tournament of Champions, the most elite high school debate competition in the United States. Jzsj (talk) 22:02, 3 February 2018 (UTC) If you think that Amador Valley High School, Avery Coonley School, and Baltimore City College no longer meet featured article criteria, you can request a review at Wikipedia:Featured article review. If you think that some statements in those articles require reliable sources, you can request them. If you think that the Pleasanton Weekly is not a reliable source, then you can open a discussion about it at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. The same is true for any other source you have questions about. 32.218.38.11 (talk) 23:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC) Please take the time to read what I am saying, which goes directly contrary to your suggestion. I say above that special Schools Project criteria are too restrictive and should not be enforced as they have been on Talk:Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School, as evidenced in many of your 15 comments there. My point is that you should pay attention to what Wikipedia says: "Featured articles are considered to be the best articles Wikipedia has to offer, as determined by Wikipedia's editors. They are used by editors as examples for writing other articles."Jzsj (talk) 07:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC) I've read every word you've written, and all you've said (over and over and over and over again) is that because some featured school articles don't seem to follow Wikipedia guidelines (in your estimation), then the Cristo Rey schools shouldn't have to follow them either. In other words, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. 32.218.152.188 (talk) 20:08, 4 February 2018 (UTC) In response to the insistence that all articles must comply with the criteria for featured schools, I went on to exemplify those criteria from the articles on these schools. The point is that these featured school articles do not follow the interpretation of Wikipedia policy applied by the chief collaborators in the Schools Project. And Wikipedia itself describes featured school articles as guides to its policy. I never said that featured schools are acting contrary to that policy. Jzsj (talk) 10:14, 5 February 2018 (UTC) Citations for the featured The Judd School. There are dozens of references to the school's website, but most to our purpose might be these statements: In recent years crowd numbers have swelled to 1,000 supporters on occasions. The fixture is notorious for generating noisy, passionate, support with fans from both sides interacting in a humorous and banterous manner. (92) The fact that a notable person attended the school is referenced only to the school website. (107) The three paragraphs on the current curriculum are quite detailed and sourced only to the school. Depending on your perspective, some of what's presented about the curriculum may be considered promotional: it serves to generate interest in prospective students. But I suggest that we use these featured articles as criteria of what “common sense” application of Wikipedia policies means. Use of school websites as references in Wikipedia is extremely widespread and I suggest one reason for this is that these websites are just as accountable for telling the truth about a school as are many of the books that are accepted as references but are clearly written to promote the school. One must judge by the credibility of the information, and I suggest that in the case of Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School what it says about itself is made credible by the abundant references we have on the Cristo Rey Network of which they are a part. (65,73,77,78) Jzsj (talk) 14:24, 4 February 2018 (UTC) Jzsj, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. Here at WPWPSCH we mainly discuss the more general aspects of school articles, their content, and notability. If you wish to bring up issues concerning individual featured school articles, I suggest you start a discussions on their talk pages and invite their FA reviewers and their other contributors to comment there. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:53, 5 February 2018 (UTC) I see that at "Revision as of 23:40, 28 January 2018" you eliminated some of the key words in my proposal above, making it unintelligible. I have placed these words (second paragraph, first sentence) in bold because they are critical to what follows, that the Schools Project can easily "give way to selective application of unrealistic standards" (even beyond the featured school criteria), perhaps due to the personal preferences of those spending much time with the project. As is evident from the discussion at Talk:Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School, the few independent editors, who have somehow found this talk page, reflect what may be a dominant perspective, that Wikipedia policy should not be made more demanding to accommodate those who will (perhaps selectively and not without prejudice) savage school articles to impose some unrealistic ideals of their own construction. (If the reversions of my work had been well-sourced, much of the talk on the Notre Dame page would have been avoided.) I agree with your guideline that "lists should be kept to a minimum" which is in line with general Wikipedia policy, but then why do you not come to our defense when the chief collaborator in the Schools Project insists that a separate section and complete list be included? Also, does he still have your support when he excludes simple mention of the school's retreat and service program? How about his confusing pre-nominals (like Fr.) with the honorifics mentioned in Wiki policy? And why exclude the category "Poverty-related organization" when it gives a succinct description of the school that is not clear from the subcategory Cristo Rey Network? I would hope that you, as an administrator and chief patron of the School's Project, will indicate when anyone exaggerates the demands this project makes for articles on schools. As to moving this discussion to some school's talk page, what is at issue here is the policy being imposed by the Schools Project, as exemplified by its chief collaborator and one or other who unwaveringly follow his lead. And someone, likely from the schools project, goes anonymous (32.218) when making more careless statements. This seems to me the proper place to raise the issue.Jzsj (talk) 09:42, 5 February 2018 (UTC) Jzsj, the deletion of a snippet of your text was unintentional - that ought to be fairly obvious. It came about while adding links you were too lazy to add for the pages you were discussing. Now please take your discussion to the individual article talk pages as requested, and if you wish to make suggestions there, please first familiarise yourself with the difference between guidelines and policy. There is no such person or thing as chief collaborator in the Schools Project. Nobody from our schools project is following this thread here except its coordinators whose job it indeed is to direct discussions and/or comments to the appropriate venues . Please be very careful with your mischaracterisations of the editors and discussions to the appropriate venues work on this project. Thank you. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:46, 6 February 2018 (UTC) As I review all the material in the Schools Project websites, it is the application to Notre Dame Cristo Rey High School of the principles by members of the School Project that gives me serious reason for concern. The issue is much larger than what happens to that one school article. I opened the question here in the hopes that it would guide the actions of those dedicated to the project. I have never attacked them personally but only identified them to bring attention to their edits. I hope this will do some good! I suspect that the discussion will end up in dispute resolution. Thanks for your help. Jzsj (talk) 10:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

When is it appropriate for material about a teacher sexually assaulting a pupil to be in the school's article

See this edit at Mater Dei High School (New Jersey). A teacher (28, teacher Dean and coach) admitted to sexually assaulting a student and was given 4 years. There's no suggestion that the school was at fault, and I have thought that generally this material doesn't belong in a school's article. Doug Weller talk 15:37, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

responded on Talk:Mater Dei High School (New Jersey)--ClemRutter (talk) 16:40, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

responded on Talk:Mater Dei High School (New Jersey). See also WP:WPSCH/AG#WNTI. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

RfC about including a map of the school's attendance boundary

Should the article High Point High School include a map of the school's attendance boundary (meaning the area which the school draws its students)? This RFC is applicable to most US and Canadian public schools, which draw students from particular catchment areas.

See the thread: Talk:High_Point_High_School#RfC_about_including_a_map_of_the_school's_attendance_boundary WhisperToMe (talk) 04:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

School Zoning Map RFC

There is an RFC about the inclusion of school zoning maps at Talk:High Point High School#Map RFC BillHPike (talk, contribs) 05:06, 30 January 2018 (UTC)duplicate notice BillHPike (talk, contribs) 06:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorting Notable Alumni?

From what I saw, there isn't any preset rules for sorting the "Notable Alumni" list, should it go by year graduated? Nevermind, all lists are by alphabetical order. TomasTomasTomas (talk) 15:23, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Proposed update for two existing parameters in Infobox school

I have proposed for the two existing parameters in {{Infobox school}}; other_name and former_name to be updated. At present, these display as Other name and Former name but to cater for schools that have more than one other name and/or former name, I proposed other_names and former_names to also be added which would display as Other names and Former names. This is already present in {{Infobox university}}. Steven (Editor) (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Well spotted. Can't see any problem in adding them. You can test the idea at {{Infobox school/sandbox}}; I know of three ways of handling this sort of labelling problem. That is the simplest. The altenatives involve an second field- |other_name_use_plural and the second involves parsing the input for a arbitary break character such as #. This is done in some of the geotagging code but would be overkill here. This change also will need to be applied to {{tl|Infobox UK school}.}The school renaming policy and practice as a whole needs to be examined. Kidbrooke School was recently renamed, and will be renamed again in March, when it is rebranded. This has reached epidemic proportions, as multi-academy trusts fail or hand back the keys. As you can see the link we use for the old_urn has been broken at the government end, and their website is inconsistent in how it names the dfeno- sometimes using that, and sometimes laestab . See Template talk:Infobox UK school for where the discussion is takng place.ClemRutter (talk) 21:27, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

How

How can join a member of WikiProject Schools?