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Uncited claims: "highest point in Prince George's County"

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I removed the claim that this school was built on the highest point in Prince George's County, as there was no reference. Elevation data and maps show the school grounds are over 100 feet lower in elevation than the highest elevation in the County, which according to the Maryland Geological Survey is located near West Laurel, Maryland at "Riding Stable Rd., nr Montgomery Co. Line; 1.2 mi. NW of jct. I-95 and Md. Rte. 198", with an elevation of 440-450ft above sea level, compared to High Point High School, at 300ft in elevation.[1][2] Too many websites and articles, including the High Point High School's own webpage are citing this unreferenced claim as fact, using Wikipedia as the only source.[3]

This is not the highest point in 2016, nor was it the highest point on record since at least as far back as 1911. [4][5] --Mellis (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Highest and Lowest Elevations in Maryland's Counties". www.mgs.md.gov. Maryland Geological Survey.
  2. ^ "PGAtlas". www.pgatlas.com. The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission.
  3. ^ "High Point High School". www1.pgcps.org. Prince George's County Public Schools.
  4. ^ Reports on County Resources: Prince George's County. Maryland Geological Survey.
  5. ^ Otton, Edmond George (1 January 1955). "Ground-water resources of the southern Maryland coastal plain". Maryland. Dept. of Geology, Mines and Water Resources. Bulletin. 15.
A WaPo Article stated: "At the top of a hill on Powder Mill Road in Beltsville sits High Point High School. According to local lore and it’s [sic] name, the school and the fenced-in, fully lighted-football field adjacent to it, sit at the highest point in Prince George’s County." so it may be just a belief. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:59, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Boundary discussion

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@John from Idegon: I really did not appreciate you reverting my additon of the Boundary map. On what grounds did my addition need to be removed from the page? I had been working on making sure that map worked properly all night. ~ Mellis (talk) 05:30, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's unusual content. Why is it needed on this article, as it is the ONLY one in the entirety of the US that has it? John from Idegon (talk) 05:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John from Idegon: Because you want sources for boundary remarks. Because it is an improvement to the article. Because it is informative to the reader. Because you haven't explained what the problem is. ~ Mellis (talk) 05:37, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The exact boundry of the school's attendance zone falls within the category "information that is of little to no use outside the school's immediate community" and is of very dubious encyclopedic value. We don't have encyclopedia articles on social geographic topics to inform the locals (that is better left to the school district's website), and how is this of use to Bennie in Bhopal or Bea in Boise? I'm sorry you wasted a bunch of time on it, but you'd have wasted just as much time drawing a floor plan of the school, which would be just as unencyclopedic. And BTW, it is up to the person wanting to add new content to justify its inclusion, as all contested content requires consensus. This is well outside the guidelines for school articles. It's generally a good idea to run new ideas for graphic additions past the projects that watch a page. We make this encyclopedia for our readers, and there is value in having some similarity in layout for articles on similar subjects. I ask again, why does this particular article need a graphic that no other school article has? John from Idegon (talk) 05:49, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Where do the "guidelines" say that a map of public school boundaries is inappropriate? I cite WP:IGNORE in stating that your behavior is preventing me from improving this encyclopedia, so I re-added my edit. A mapped floor plan would in fact be useless to the average reader, but this map is useful to all people who want to understand where the students of this school come from. I cannot understand your aggressive stance against showing a simple map relating to the school in the article. The fact that no other school has such a map, which is an unbelievable, unproven claim, only goes to show how much these articles need to be improved. ~ Mellis (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John from Idegon: The fact that you linked me to a WikiProject advice page and claimed they are "guildlines" is really absurd. You have not shown me any official Wikipedia policy or guideline that would rationalize leaving the Boundary map off the page. This isn't a 'graphic', because it isn't shown until the reader clicks on the link.~ Mellis (talk) 06:11, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John from Idegon: How dare you call the map 'original research'. THE MAP IS PROPERLY CITED AND I MADE NO MODIFICATION TO THE DATA. ~ Mellis (talk) 06:13, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Want a policy? WP:CONSENSUS. Want another one? WP:NOT. That's a pillar policy. And since one link you linked to for a source doesn't open and the other just shows a map with a bunch of schoolhouses on it, what am I supposed to think? I'm going to bed in 15 minutes. So, you can either cool down and discuss this reasonably and per guidelines, you can revert me again and get blocked or you too can sleep on it and attempt to discuss this reasonably. John from Idegon (talk) 06:45, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@John from Idegon: I appreciate your reply. However:
  1. I do not appreciate you calling my properly cited FACTS 'unsourced'. Which link didn't open for you??
  2. I do not appreciate you calling my properly cited DATA 'original research', despite the boundaries being imported UNMODIFIED straight from the County:  http://gisdata.pgplanning.org/opendata/ and the Prince George's County School System: http://www1.pgcps.org/schoolboundaries/ .
  3. I do not appreciate you stripping all critical information regarding the communities served by the high school.
  4. I did not appreciate you pulling unrelated policy claims out of a hat.
  5. I do not appreciate your stubbornness and aggression that led to a dramatic decline in the usefulness of this article.
  6. I will not edit the page any further today, but let the record show that I very strongly disagree with everything you have done to the article since my first edit today, and I DEMAND you to also stop editing the article until you explain why the heck you feel it is so absolutely critical for you to strip all information from this article which describes the communities that are served by this public school.~ Mellis (talk) 07:01, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its perfectly acceptable to cite school-district published maps showing the school's service area and to combine it with neighborhood, municipal, county, and/or US Census Bureau (for census-designated places) maps to show which communities are served by which schools. See Talk:ENSCO,_Inc. as a example of using maps to show the real location of a place being not "original research". I've been doing this school zoning stuff for years (over a decade) in many school and school-district related articles across the United States. I can help you find maps if you like.
  • Since many PG County communities are unincorporated, get the CDP maps from the US Census Bureau so the zoning stuff is verifiable.
  • The purpose of a neighborhood school is to serve all high school students within one or more communities, so attendance info is of vital importance to the subject, not something merely of "local interest'" - In addition, since Wikipedia is a gazetteer, matching school districts and schools to communities fulfills this role.
  • In regards to including the actual map on the page, I havnn't seen a lot of that but I like the idea as people can visualize which communities are served by the school. This is of importance outside of the immediate area as readers should be educated on which areas the school serves.
The problem with web-based school boundary map tools is that the data will eventually be taken offline, and the reference will be gone. I prefer it when maps are in PDF/JPG format as one can use an archival service (archive.is, webcitation or wayback machine) to save them
Use of demographic data can be Wikipedia:Original research if you're trying to make conclusions not stated in secondary sources, not because they're not true, but because published sources never made them (and therefore the changes are not important). For demographic trends look up articles from local newspapers or the Washington Post and see if they discuss demographic trends at the school.
WhisperToMe (talk) 07:37, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, WhisperToMe. Good to see you. I've seen you use census data maps to properly locate schools many times, but I do not recall you using map data to show "communities served", which is the issue here. My problem with the graphic he's tried to add (and he seems to be saying on my talk page now that he's letting go of that) is that he combined two separate databases to create it. If we did that with words, it would be SYNTH. Am I missing something? Further, he's wanting to source a listing of communities served in the article to a map on the school district's website. That map shows dots of different colors for different communities, the colors being keyed to a school. I'm not real comfortable with that as a source. Additionally, Mellis, that content is not generally put in the lede. Further, you are not going to get very far demanding anything. What is the basis for your demand? Discussion is how issues get solved here. Making unbased demands only serves to aggravate the situation. This article sucks. I'm not arguing that. But it can be improved by adding needed sourced content. The history section is pretty light. There is no academic section. There is no athletic section. Whisper, check me if I'm wrong, but communities served, although valid content when properly sourced, is not content that is often included, as it has little value outside the immediate geographic area of the school. I'm done for the night. But I did update the NCES stats. John from Idegon (talk) 08:06, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Example: In Lamar High School (Houston) I mention some of the communities served in the lead, but only incorprorated cities (CDPs would be equivalent) and/or prominent communities mentioned in secondary sources (River Oaks, and West U - while the article says "Bellaire pools from the West University area" West U itself is zoned to Lamar). I have a fuller list of neighborhoods served in the section Neighborhoods_served (I do need to add some maps to some other communities, such as Afton Oaks). Over the years I've added this info to various Houston-area schools. Then I added it to those in Dallas, San Antonio, Chicago, Miami, Los Angeles, etc.
People interested in, for example, Houston may want to know which schools serve which neighborhoods partly because better schools mean higher property values and more prestige for the neighborhood. People studying Houston may want to know the relative statuses of neighborhoods, and schools are a good way of determining that. This often is reflected in Houston Chronicle articles about neighborhoods for the real estate section: for Knollwood Village, "The neighborhood has gained in popularity among families because it is still relatively affordable. Buyers with children are drawn to the International Baccalaureate programs at Pershing Middle and Bellaire High schools.". Likewise, for Crestwood/Glen Cove "[s]chools are probably the weak part of the neighborhood, if there is one" (Feser, Katherine. "Few residents ever leave Crestwood." Houston Chronicle. Sunday April 10, 1994. Business p. 12.).
WhisperToMe (talk) 08:28, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John from Idegon: Please try to stop misinterpreting things I say. I am not 'letting go' of my desire to have the boundary map on this article. But now you have destroyed the content of the article by REMOVING MOST OF IT. Now it has become an even higher priority to me to have the content describing communities restored to the article. Yes, I should not have added two references to cite the map. The data only came from one source: gisdata.pgplanning.org/opendata/ I appologize for that confusion. By stating two sources I was hoping to providing a way that the reader could verify the data. The data can also be visualized on www.pgatlas.com
  • I did not create a SYNTH.
  • I did not combine data.
  • I did not fabricate data.
  • I did not add interpretation.
  • I did not change, modify, abstract, or otherwise alter any data.
  • I did not create, edit, or fabicate any 'graphic'. I only imported pure, unmodified map data, which is visualized on the Wikimedia platform through mw:Extension:Kartographer.
@WhisperToMe: Thank you very much for your comments. I am very familiar with what constitutes Wikipedia:Original research. I assure everyone that I have not created or posted such content. Nor have I stated any opinions in the article, nor drawn any conclusions, nor added any interpretation of any kind to any data. There was no 'interpretation' or tracing of lines. It is unmodified GeoJSON map data, visualized through mw:Extension:Kartographer. I downloaded the GIS map data from the county government, and uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons, here: c:Data:High Point High School/Data:Boundary Map.map. I made absolutely no modifications to the data. NONE.

"High Point High School data layer exported without modification from High_School_Bndry_BOE_Py.zip, from GIS Open Data Portal - Planning Department of Prince George’s County - The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission"

"Data available under Creative Commons Zero"

--~ Mellis (talk) 08:36, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So, once again, please explain why this article needs this graphic, keeping in mind Wikipedia's policy for images. How is this graphic presentation of something that can just as easily be expressed in words useful? If it changes, it cannot be easily edited, it provides no information at all to someone who is visually challenged and the geographic information imparted is meaningless to anyone but a local. The geographic information needed by the world is already on the article. John from Idegon (talk) 08:47, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@John from Idegon: Most people reading this article live in Maryland, and more specifically live in Prince George's County, Maryland. There is tremendous confusion on behalf of County residents and the public about which communities feed into this school. How can you say that the "The geographic information needed by the world is already on the article." IF YOU REMOVED ALL OF THE PERTINENT CONTENT DESCRIBING THE COMMUNITIES SERVED BY THIS SCHOOL?? The text would not convey that Chillum Manor and Hampshire Knolls feeds into this school and that areas East of University Blvd are outside of the served boundary area. Why does Bald eagle have a range map? Why does Chesapeake Bay have maps of the watershed? Why does Manhattan have maps? These maps provide no information at all to someone who is visually challenged.~ Mellis (talk) 09:00, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What do you guys think about an RfC? It might be good to get clarification since this issue may impact many US and Canadian high school articles. The vast majority of high schools in those countries have defined attendance boundaries.
Based on this revision- Presenting the school's boundary map alone IMO without making statements of which communities a school serves cannot be OR. It all boils down to an editorial issue and whether the article becomes too reliant on primary sources.
I understand that articles should be primarily reliant on secondary sources, but it's okay to get some things from primary sources, and urban planners, education officials, government officials (of any level), and academics studying PG County would get a lot of use out of school boundary maps. I also agree with Mellis's point that neighborhood/district articles have maps too, and people studying X subject generally expect to see maps.
WhisperToMe (talk) 09:06, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would support a RfC. Thank you @WhisperToMe: for your thoughts. ~ Mellis (talk) 09:25, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about including a map of the school's attendance boundary

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Closing this RFC as per a request at Wikipedia:Requests for closure, there's been no discussion since the end of January. The consensus is that a map could be included providing that it supports editorial content (such as around a zoning controversy) and is not just in there as a pretty picture. Noting (and this is my view and not germane to the closure) that this RFC would have probably attracted more interest and been easier to understand if it had included a sample map of the school's attendance boundary. Fish+Karate 09:51, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should this article include a map of the school's attendance boundary (meaning the area which the school draws its students)? This RFC is applicable to most US and Canadian public schools, which draw students from particular catchment areas. @John from Idegon:@Mellis: WhisperToMe (talk) 04:56, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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  • Conditional support John once told me “we don’t use pictures as decorations” in articles about schools. I disagreed with him at the time, but I’ve come to understand that those were words of wisdom. Images are most effective when they are supported by editorial content describing what the image illustrates. School zoning is often a controversial and racially divisive subject. The map can help illustrate the zoning controversy in ways that words cannot. Mellis has alluded to significant controversies involving zoning boundary changes for this school. If we add editorial content about those controversies, I think it would be appropriate to include the map. BillHPike (talk, contribs) 05:23, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Articles about such controversies may be found in PG County newspapers and/or the Washington Post. It may be good to look for them and build a model section other US and Canadian schools may use. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Seems like important, relevant information, useful for getting a better understanding of the school and the community it serves. Why not include it? —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:12, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support. I'm not seeing anything wrong with using the map in question in general even after reading the conversation below. It seems fine to use as part of text sourcing. Since it appears there is controversy over changing boundaries though, supporting text would be needed to outline the controversy in the section an actual image would be used in. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion

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Please note in many cases (especially in rural areas) the map of the school district itself and that of the high school will be identical, as it's the only school/high school in the school district. In some cases the district and the school/high school have the same article as it is a school district with a single school. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I've left a neutrally worded notice at WT:WikiProject Maps, WT:WikiProject Schools and WT:WikiProject Maryland. I tried to leave the same notice for each project, but I felt it was appropriate to add a bit of geographic context to my posting at Wikiproject Maryland. BillHPike (talk, contribs) 05:09, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: If the primary reason for wanting to include this in the article is what is posted here, then I would say no to inclusion. Wikipedia articles are not intended to be specifically written for any one particular group of people and they are certainly not intended to be treated as directory or guideline for any one particular subject. Trying to turn the article into reference material for parents trying to figure where they can send their kids to school seems like a bad idea to me; if there is confusion over which communities feed into the district, then that is something which should addressed with local governments or the school itself; it's not really Wikipedia's role to unconfuse such things per WP:RGW and WP:WPNOTRS. At the same time, if this particular issue/controversy/confusion is the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources and a map or maps can help further the reader's understanding of article content about the controversy (for example, two maps showing the current school zone in comparison with a previous or proposed zone), then there is probably some real contextual value to using such an image or images. The point I'm trying to make is that Wikipedia should not be trying to provide an up-to-date map of the school zone for parents to use as a reference guide, but only to use a map in support of relevant critical commentary content discussing any controversy involving the school zone. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:09, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - this map in question was not posted a a solution to depicting any kind of secondary source. Please provide secondary sources that show a need for it. If that is the reason for it, put the copy and the sources into the article. This is completely premature. All that was in this article yesterday was an unreferenced list of communities served, a short unsourced blurb on how the name was determined and a notable people's list. That's all. Whisper, your contention that readers expect a map is both unsourced and not born out by fact. Also off topic, as this RfC purports to be only about this article. And the originator of the entire thread's contention that somehow this article is for the locals smacks of WP:OWN. All in all, this is not a constructive use of RfC. So how about we make an article and then worry about what is needed to clarify it? John from Idegon (talk) 07:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • And as Whisper has made arguments toward a wider inclusion of such maps, let's talk about that too. First, as WTM pointed out somewhat incorrectly, in most cases, the district map and the high school zoning map will be the same, as the vast majority of school districts in the US are single high school districts. Second, what do you do when school attendance isn't zoned? Many districts are still under the effects or residues of consent decrees for mandatory integration imposed in the 70s, where attendance boundries were shifted annually to achieve the demographic mix goal. Third, many school districts are going to an all magnet plan (Louisville, KY notably) where the building you attend is based on what you want to study, not where you live. Fourth, School of choice is a thing in many states, further blurring attendance boundries. And last, who exactly is going to make the several thousand maps you seem to be desiring? John from Idegon (talk) 08:07, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh yeah....and what Bill said. In short, this is a solution looking for a problem to solve. John from Idegon (talk) 08:09, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • It is true that the majority of school districts have just one high school anyway since rural areas have smaller school districts (and therefore a lot more of them!). Nowadays urban areas have more residents and AFAIK urban schools generally get more attention from Wikipedians.
        • I agree that maps are unnecessary for magnet schools without attendance boundaries of their own. The maps boundaries just don't exist in those cases.
        • I filed this RfC because I think it will have applicability in school articles across the US and Canada, clarifying when and how these maps should be used. Many school articles are undeveloped anyway (like this one), so this may guide how to develop the articles.
        • As for who would make them, there are people on the Commons who volunteer to do that stuff. It may take awhile but if enough dedicated people are there, the maps can go to the commons like other maps. However the fact boundaries change year-to-year can make this very time consuming.
        • WhisperToMe (talk) 11:16, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • I found article that may help source my assertion about readers and maps: "Why We’re More Likely To Remember Content With Images And Video (Infographic)" Fast Company magazine. 09.18.14. A useful quote relevant to this discussion:
            • "According to the New Yorker, Abraham Lincoln often referred to a map that “bore the marks of much service.” More than just a map of the southern states, this three-foot parchment also reflected the number of slaves who lived in each county and was a constant source of reflection for the President."
          • I agree that mere decorations aren't useful; they don't add anything to the article. I like to develop school articles because of my interest in demographics and urban planning, and the attendance zones often dictate the school's academic performance and reputation. This article's connection with Langley Park, Maryland is key :).
          • WhisperToMe (talk) 08:06, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addendum: the school district's attendance boundary map WhisperToMe (talk) 05:48, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Former demographics

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Not sure if this would fit, but I found 2005 demographics:

It stated at the time the school's ESOL classes came from 78 countries and that of the 511 12th grade students, 53% were black, 29% were Hispanic, 11% were non-Hispanic white, and 7% were ASIAN. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:58, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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