Talk:AV1

Lossless?

Does this codec support lossless RGB encoding/decoding? That seems like it would be useful information to have in this article. I came here looking for that information, but it was missing. -AlexFolland (talk) 11:29, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I second that request. I've been reading up on all kinds of sources but could find no information regarding support for a lossless mode.2A02:8109:8700:11A0:8DD1:24F3:1D5D:BEB3 (talk) 14:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

If I read the specs correctly, it does: https://webmproject.github.io/av1-bitstream/ 83.87.131.205 (talk) 21:44, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it does, see Changelog v1.3.0 too: https://github.com/mbebenita/aom/blob/master/CHANGELOG Slhck (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Logo

Is the logo supposed to be an A+1+v for Av1? Anyway, please add an infobox here. –193.96.224.9 (talk) 12:47, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

lists

Shouldn't we describe important features and the process how features are added in prose instead of bloating the article with those questionable excessive lists? I find such lists to add little value and regard them mostly as a sign for low quality articles.--Flugaal (talk) 20:14, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

For current experiments, let's drop those lacking explanations – that's no sacrifice at all. Actually, it doesn't matter, since that list is supposed to be empty in a month's time. Meanwhile, the list of former experiments will gain at most 5 more (J.Krishnan, STSWE 2017) before it's final. That list, in list form, is golden: All sources we have about the features of the format so far are sparse or outdated, while this list, to the best of our knowledge, is complete! If/when an official or better list or overview of any sort is revealed, we should of course link to that instead.—84.208.177.88 (talk) 22:10, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

I see how you may profit from the knowledge that the list is complete. Maybe it's a useful aid for our work as authors here. But I still don't see how readers profit more from having this info in list form instead of having it in prose. (I don't see what kind of an argument "is golden" is supposed to be.) Therefore, I'll move forward with prosifying this stuff.--Flugaal (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

There is no point in putting WP:Too much detail into an encyclopedia article. Regurgitating what can already be found in documentation (rather than coverage in independent reliable sources) doesn't add encyclopedic value to the article. The lists should be removed. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

extended from VP10

VP10 is not a thing. It never made it past the vaporware state. AV1 is the successor to VP9, not VP10. There was an internal research project at Google whose results would have been named VP10 if AV1 and AOM had not happened and if it would have made reached publication. They decided against publishing a VP10. So, User:MennasDosbin, please leave VP10 out of the list in the "extended from" item of the infobox.--Flugaal (talk) 22:36, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

That wasn't me, that was MennasDosbin with this edit. Regardless, just because something wasn't published doesn't mean it didn't exist. Stickee (talk) 22:46, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

The official spec is abandoned

Documentation work has moved to github, apparently.

• What I initially noticed: The documentation is written for GitHub Pages. Googlesource's source code view does not render it very well (for one thing, the images are gone), whereas those able to guess the github pages url will find a glorious document.
• The nail in the coffin: The documentation repository on googlesource[1] hasn't seen updates in 2 months, whereas the github one[2] has, and is based on the last googlesource commit (90adec).

I'm changing the bitstream link back to github.—84.209.101.182 (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Ambiguous wording/meaning in cited source: "binding specification," or software "bindings"? (AV1 Spec release, March 28th)

Hi all,

I am wondering what "binding" or "bindings" means in the context of this release. The source we cite isn't totally clear on the matter.

Relatedly, I just updated a sentence in the Wiki article: "The Alliance announced the release of the AV1 bitstream specification on 28 March 2018, along with a reference encoder, a reference decoder, test files ("reference streams"), and software bindings."

But the source seems a little vague with its usage of "binding" and "bindings":

"Designed at the outset for hardware optimization, the AV1 specification, reference code, and bindings are available for tool makers and developers to download here to begin designing AVI into products."

(This sentence seems to refer to software "language bindings".)

"Binding specifications to allow content creation and streaming tools for user-generated and commercial video"

(Does this sentence mean that the whole set of specs is "binding," in the sense that all implementers must now follow the specs? (Whereas before, the draft-status specs were "non-binding"?) Or does this refer to specifications that describe how to write/use bindings that ease use of the encoder and/or decoder libraries?)

In my own research on the subject, I have heard no reference to "bindings" anywhere else but this announcement. (No cite-worthy sources turned up, that I can remember.) I fear this might have been a typo or a brain fart or Freudian slip by the editor of the release announcement, and there may in fact be no bindings to speak of, only "binding specifications". But who can tell?

If anyone can help clear that up, I think it would help improve the factual accuracy of our treatment of this release event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.226.126 (talk) 05:41, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

I deleted the claim about "bindings" in the article, since there weren't any references to bindings in coverage around the net, that I could find (other than a source or two that directly copy-pasted from the release announcement). 2601:4B:300:5D46:CC75:736C:89F2:FFC5 (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Found an informative (probably not citeable-quality?) source; Seems to clarify the meaning of "reference streams" as mentioned in spec release announcement (28 March)

http://www.argondesign.com/products/argon-streams-av1/

This company, Argon Design, is directly editing the spec document itself, which according to their site (see URL above) contains psuedo-code that they actually compile and use to generate "reference streams," which (near as I can tell) are just tiny, correctly-formatted video files matching the encoding spec. They have some mechanism to run these files through a given decoder programatically, and see if the output is "formally correct" per the encoding/decoding specs.

So basically, reading between the lines, Argon Designs will likely author the "reference streams" mentioned in the AV1 spec press release today (28 March). (They have already done similar for VP9 and HEVC, according to their site.)

(My reasoning here is something like original research, plus heavy reliance on primary sources, I know, so please don't put any of this into the article until we have proper source(s) to site. But I thought this was informative, and useful in interpreting the AOMedia announcement from today, so I wanted to mention it here in the mean-time.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.226.126 (talk) 06:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

The article no longer mentions "reference streams" (with regard to the 1.0 announcement), because most secondary or third-party sources didn't mention reference streams, so verifiability is poor IMO, and in any case the fact of their existence is doubtful IMO. Tom's Hardware mentions "reference streams,"Armasu, Lucian (28 March 2018). "Next-Generation And Royalty-Free AV1 Video Codec Is Released". Tom's Hardware. Retrieved 6 April 2018. The release of the AV1 video codec includes a bitstream specification for future chips, an experimental software decoder and encoder to create and consume the bitstream, as well as reference streams for product validation. but they're the only source I found that mentions them without directly copy-pasting from the release announcement. I don't think the one source is enough incentive to add this back to the article, since as far as I am aware, the streams aren't real just yet. I do expect them to come in due time, but if I'm reading between the lines correctly, Argon Designs needs to spec to be finalized before they can produce the reference streams. And I don't know of any other likely source of the reference streams, but I could be wrong. Just working with what I can find. Until there is a more-substantial source on reference streams for verifiability, I personally don't think it's worth changing the article to mention them. 2601:4B:300:5D46:CC75:736C:89F2:FFC5 (talk) 19:35, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Release is just a PR statement

(Hi all, sorry for adding so many topics to the Talk lately, but if wer're discussing a 1.0 release, that seems important to cover well here on Wikipedia.)

The announcement from AOMedia makes a number of claims about releasing stuff, but I can't verify any of it as actually released in a final state. Close-to-final maybe, but not final.

(As noted in the article, the spec is still being edited. The likely reference streams, as mentioned in an above section of this Talk page, aren't released yet, and I can't find any other ones released yet, so as far as I know there are none released as of today. I don't personally know exactly what to look for, and I may be missing them in the "aomedia" repo, but I'm not sure the "bindings" are released either.)

I tried to find sources that clear this up, but no sources so far have actually fact-checked the release announcement; They've all repeated its claims, and maybe framed them in some context. But the actual facts of the release need clarifying and confirmation IMO.

(And perhaps AOMedia and constituent members are about to wrap the 1.0 release, and we'll see all the things from the announcement within a short amount of time. That much may be genuine. But as it stands of today, none of the release's basic claims look to be accurate; Nothing is released in any final format. (Which, for the record is not to say they aren't close to ready to release. They look very close. But "very close" and "done" is an important difference in my view.))

In short, until we can cite a source that fact-checks the release, our coverage will be factually dubious as per the factually dubious release announcement itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4B:300:5D46:92:E79C:3778:76D6 (talk) 14:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed details that couldn't be found in a secondary/third-party source. (I guess the number of edits to the spec are sort-of minor at this point, so in a close but no cigar way I guess the spec is "final enough" to start implementing.) (To rail on factual accuracy too much at this point, without appropriate sources to back it up, I think risks losing the spirit of Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth.) 68.81.226.126 (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The meat and potatoes of the announcement, a "1.0" release of the spec, seems only vaguely/loosely real. AOMedia's announcement is apparently signalling "we'd like to think of it as done," or even "We'd like you to think of it as done"... but the spec itself is still being edited, using a process of "reverse-engineering the reference code," and I'm finding no clear communication that the code-base was ever frozen, although I admit I can't claim to have done an exhaustive search for such a code-base freeze. What I can say is that "[NORMATIVE]" changes keep landing at the source repo's master branch: https://aomedia.googlesource.com/aom/+log/master. Perhaps there was a "1.0" tag placed in the repo at some point, and that is considered the "freeze" point. That would make plenty of sense and be a typical thing to do these days (tag the milestone and keep going.) I just don't get the sense there has actually been a freeze. (I personally need to confirm a freeze or milestone tag has happened, or else I will believe the release's claims are misleading.)

Again, I'm just putting this out there so we can consider how accurate our coverage is; I don't advocate for breaking Wikipedia editing guidelines by trying to assert truth over verifiability. I just wish there were sources out there questioning and confirming the details of the release announcement.

2601:4B:300:5D46:CC75:736C:89F2:FFC5 (talk) 19:13, 6 April 2018 (UTC)