Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)

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How do I name this?

If I'm going to write an article on a Korean variety show, how would I name it (it's called "X-Man", so I need a descriptor after it)? It's not exactly a serial, but would X-Man (variety show) work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SKS2K6 (talk • contribs) .

X-Man (variety show) seems good. There would likely be confusing with X-Man (TV show), so I would go with (variety show) instead. -- Ned Scott 05:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Related discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, about the best way to consistently title Lost episodes (such as to use a suffix of "(Lost)" or "(Lost episode)"). Interested editors are invited to participate, to ensure consensus. --Elonka 23:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Episode naming, again!

I'm a bit confused over episode naming. I have seen both Episode-name (Show-name) and Episode-name (Show-name episode) used. General naming convention is to describe WHAT the item is, not where it is from - for example, (actor) and (politician) would be preferred for diambiguating two names, and if there were more than one politician, then (Australian politician) and (Canadian politician) would be preferred. using (Australia) and (Canada) would be wrong using this method.

I would have expected television episodes naming conventions to be a subset of the general naming conventions - and as such use (Lost episode) and (Jericho episode) for example. I have seen a few articles using just (Lost) which is wrong - the word "Lost" by itself doesn't do anything to tell you what the article is about, unless you already know that it is an episode of the show. Looking deeper I have found that this is the recommended naming convention for WikiProject Television episodes!

Trying to find past discussion about this is tricky, I've found info scattered over WP:Naming conventions, WP:Naming conventions (television), WP:Disambiguation, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, and the associated talk pages. I'm not sure where I should bring it up, but the episode naming convention should be "(Show name episode)" - it is after all a part of Wikipedia and where possible different projects should not have different naming schemes.

Note: Whether or not episode article names should be pre-emptively disambiguated is another topic altogether! -- Chuq 02:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable rational to me, I agree. -- Ned Scott 03:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Requesting comments for Lost episodes

Requesting comments for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix - a debate over the use of disambiguation titles for episode articles of a TV show when no disambiguation is needed. -- Ned Scott 21:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Please note that this is the same discussion as was already pointed to, two sections up. --Elonka 23:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Same discussion, but it was originally noted for (Lost) vs (Lost episode) instead of where the current discussion is at. -- Ned Scott 00:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Star Trek example

Since it's being discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines I thought it would be good to note this here as well. Here is the reason the Star Trek "exception example" was removed from the guidelines:

To use a disambig title when it is not necessary, for style or consistency reasons seem to be against general naming conventions. For example, one should title the Lost episode "Fire + Water" as Fire + Water instead of Fire + Water (Lost), where "Fire + Water" doesn't exist as another article. Here are some discussions that seem to support this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, Talk:Fire + Water#Requested move, Talk:List of Torchwood episodes#Article names. One exception was given for this without explanation, Star Trek episodes.

I've been trying to find out how the Star Trek example got in the guideline in the first place, and here's the first edit I've seen it in. The talk page at that time did not have any mentioning of Star Trek, nor did the poll that was taken a few days before. I found two places in the talk archive where Star Trek is mentioned:

• Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive2#Further discussion regarding this poll - about a non-episode Star Trek article where it was preferred to use a non-disambig title when it was not needed.

• Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Archive1#Episode names - which does talk about episode articles and the use of disambig titles, but ironically was being used as an example of articles that don't disambig when not needed.

Had there been at least something that lead to this addition I would have likely discussed first before removing, but there was not. There is no major support for this, and it's very misleading. The inclusion of the Star Trek example is what mislead me to my own assumption that this was acceptable. If we have an exception in a guideline then the exception needs some explanation, some context. The Star Trek example has none, and its removal was appropriate. -- Ned Scott 00:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I oppose your removing the information from the guideline (especially while you were involved in an active controversy about this in another part of Wikipedia). The information was useful, to show that there are multiple ways that episode titles can be handled. The Star Trek exception clearly affects hundreds of articles, as can be seen at Category:Star Trek episodes. It's worth mentioning. --Elonka 02:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I originally removed it long before we were in a dispute. Being in dispute alone is not a reason to keep a bad note that conflicts with other guidelines on naming conventions. It clearly has affected a lot of articles, and because of it we have a lot of cleanup to do. It's best not to make the job any bigger. -- Ned Scott 03:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You removed it, without discussion, concurrent with the dispute at Talk:Fire + Water about a page move, even though that wording had been in place for months.[1] Further, every time different wording was suggested, you simply reverted it without discussion.[2][3][4] , and then in a display of profoundly bad faith, you then insisted that your version was "consensus", and that discussion was needed to restore the information that you had removed. [5].For the record, this is my current recommendation of what should (re)-added to the Guideline page, in the section under "Episode articles":

Certain shows such as Star Trek and Lost may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.

I would also point you to Wikipedia:Guidelines, which says, "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.". --Elonka 20:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I did remove it without discussion, because it was added without discussion, and you were trying to push an absurd and unjustified exception. Your current recommendation is without sound logic. A bad example is a bad example, no matter how many times you re-word it. Advice that is not easily agreed upon and that has clearly caused confusion is something that should be removed. Even if the example is allowed, the way the information was being presented clearly wasn't helpful. It provided no context, had no explanation whatsoever, and there was no "consensus" to include it. Just because no one noticed it for a while doesn't mean it gained consensus. It's not much different than removing unsourced text from an article, because there's nothing backing this example. -- Ned Scott 06:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

RfC Episode Article Naming conventions

I am starting this as there is already four discussions on this page regaurding this issue, also It has come up on Talk:Heroes (TV series) and Talk:Jericho (TV series) and though I'm not involved I understand from this page that the debate is also raging (poetic license) on Talk:Lost (TV series). I am going to try to detail the options as I see it and then give my recomendation.

• The current debate on the Lost articles is actually on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines, for anyone who's interested. -- Ned Scott 20:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Summary of the issue

Currently there is a bit of confusion since WP:D says that the first article with a given name should be just that name. However in specific to episodic television episode articles, WP:TV-NC says to reference the guidlines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes. Since the project guidlines aren't specific every one seems to be pushing for their own preffered version of NC. This RfC seeks to define a single NC for Television Episode articles.

-- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Potential Guidelines

1. Use the existing naming convention from WP:NC and WP:D ("Disambiguate only when necessary")
2. Articles should be named <EpTitle> (NameOfSeries)
3. Articles should be named <EpTitle> (NameOfSeries episode)

Notification

I created {{User:Argash/TVEpNCRfC}} for placement on appropriate talk pages. Feel free to put on talk pages where you deem appropriate to direct people to this discussion.

Poll

Add #'''Support''' ~~~~ to ONE of the two options to indicate which one you agree with. Voting "support" for one equals voting "oppose" for the other. Do not alter the setup. We're trying to keep this simple.

Disambig only when necessary

1. Support. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
2. Support Shannernanner 21:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
3. Support —Wknight94 (talk) 22:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
4. Support —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
5. Support Nohat 23:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
6. Support --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
7. Support --theDemonHog 00:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
8. Support ThuranX 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
9. Support Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 03:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
10. Support Jay32183 03:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
11. Support Izhmal (User page | User talk page) 03:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
12. Support ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
13. Support - Just the episode name, then X (Y), then X (Y episode), if a previous version is taken. KISS - Peregrinefisher 04:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
14. Support. -- Wikipedical 05:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Disambig title

1. Support --Elonka 20:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
2. Support thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 20:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
3. Support - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 21:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
4. Support - There are several episodes which are named after a character, place, event etc. even within that fictional universe, therefore appending 'episode' makes it clear it's an article about an episode, not the place, character etc. Marky1981 22:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
5. Support --EEMeltonIV 22:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
6. Support per Marky1981 --Mnemeson 22:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
7. Support--Opark 77 23:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
8. Support -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
9. Support --EnsRedShirt 02:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
10. Somewhat support I don't feel strongly about this, but if I had to make a choice it would be to include the word episode. -- Ned Scott 02:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
11. Support -- Chuq 07:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Further comments

I guess now that I have summed up the issue I will note that the option that I prefer is the second as it's unifying, descriptive and not overly wordy.

Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of pros v cons but it should be enough to get an idea and debate the issue. I will be posting this to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies and hopefully we can come to a concensus and make a unifying standard.

-- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

There is also a discussion about this at Talk:The New and Improved Carl Morrissey, thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 14:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I've done what I can to clean it up. Let's hope something good comes out of this. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This RfC is a bit confusing. For one, the discussion over the Lost episodes is happening on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines and not the other Lost talk page. Also, on the Lost discussion we're mostly talking about the use of disambig titles ("Showtitle (Lost whatever)") when no disambig title is needed. However, the 3 "vote" options presented don't allow for someone to say if they prefer "(Show Name episode)" or "(Show Name)" without needless disambiguation. Can we change the wording on this and the options before people get too far into this so there's less confusion? Also, it'd be nice if we could transclude some of the comments from that Lost talk page to here, as I'd hate to bug everyone again for a second comment. -- Ned Scott 20:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point, Ned. I wonder if we actually need to take two votes here: one to determine whether episodes should always have the parenthetical disambiguation suffix or should only include when necessary, and one to determine whether that suffix should be "(ShowName)" or "(ShowName episode)" or something else.

Regarding the first point (whether to disambiguate always, or only when necessary): I would normally be quick to go with the universal standard, but the fact of the matter is that episode titles are actually pretty rarely used in day-to-day discussions. I mean, if I were to say to my co-worker, "Hey, did you see 'Static' last night?" he wouldn't know that I was referring to last night's episode of Cold Case. I agree that Wikipedia articles should be named with the simplest, clearest title possible, and that we should only add disambiguation when necessary. But "simplest and clearest" doesn't always mean "shortest." In this case, I think adding the disambiguation is actually simpler and clearer than not adding it.--TobyRush 20:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure who added the previous comment, I'll dig through the history later and find it but I agree with your first point as I would most deffinately vote for either 2 or 3 before option one. And I do agree with Ned as well. The main reason I posted the discussion here was because it was spread across so many shows. I will through together a notice later tonight that we can throw up on talk pages to let people know that this discussion is here. -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

A lot of films aren't recognizable in the mainstream, but I don't think they all need to be appended with "(film)." I think if the current guideline is sufficient; if ambiguous, they should be appended with the showname in parentheses, otherwise they should not. Shannernanner 21:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think using films is a bad analogy here as films are singular where as it's not uncommon for a tv series to have 100-200 episodes or more. -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually experienced this myself moments ago... Matthew referred to The New and Improved Carl Morrissey above and it wasn't until visiting the page that I realized it was even a television episode, let alone one from The 4400. And I was reading a comment about television episodes. Sure, a large part of that may be due to my own daftness... --TobyRush 20:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not real useful to have the same subject being discussed at multiple places. There's no way this "vote" can be considered binding unless people in the other discussions are notified as well. I only stumbled on this by looking at other people's contributions. That notwithstanding, can someone please explain this supposed watchlist benefit to number 2 above? Are there people that are watching pages but don't want to fix vandalism in them because they're not related to Lost?! Please tell me that's not the case. If an article is in your watchlist, you should look for vandalism in edits to that article, regardless of the article's subject - and certainly regardless of that article's naming convention! —Wknight94 (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's actually not a primary consideration, but for me, I do a lot of work on Wikipedia, and routinely have about 2,000 articles on my watchlist at any one time, even with constant pruning. If I have time, yes, it's nice to be able to go through and check the most recent change on every single article I'm watching. More often, however, I'm just on Wikipedia for a few minutes, so I like to focus on the Lost articles, since I'm very familiar with that subject matter right now. Also, to be honest, the changes to the Lost episode articles are more likely to need patrolling for vandalism or original research than many of the others on my list. However, I don't have every single episode title memorized, and many of the episode titles don't look like episode titles (like The Greater Good or Maternity Leave). So having the additional suffix makes them easier to spot in my watchlist. And again, it's not a major issue with me, but it is still something that's helpful, which is why I added it to the "Pro" section. :) --Elonka 23:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI, you can get a watchlist for just Lost episodes if you bookmark this link: [6]. Nohat 23:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with you on this point as well -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Preemptive disambiguation has always been and continues to be a bad idea. Article titles should consist only of the titles of articles. In some cases, this policy doesn't work because some things have the same title. In those cases, as a last resort, we disambiguate the title using a parenthetical disambiguation. Parenthetical disambiguations are bad thing, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. We should not be implementing policies that change article titles to generic information containers that contain titles and any other random grab-bag of information, like the name of the series it is a part of, or whatever. It's a muddy semantic mess that would only cause worse semantic muddying elsewhere on Wikipedia. Once we put "(Star Trek episode)" (or whatever) in the title of every Star Trek episode, why not put "(Star Trek character)" after every character or "(2005 novel)" after every novel written last year or "(person who graduated college)" in the title of every article about college graduates, and so on? Star Trek episodes are not special and there is no compelling reason why they should have special exemption to the general policy of only disambiguating when disambiguation is necessary. While it may provide a small benefit in remembering link names for those users who exclusively edit articles relating to Star Trek, for the rest of us, who are just as likely to link to a Star Trek episode as any other article, having a policy of preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek articles is just another dumb exception that has to be memorized and makes Wikipedia less consistent overall. Nohat 23:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, well stated. Shannernanner 23:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Imo it has evolved into more then being just "disambig." thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 23:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I completely disagree with you in this case. Normally yes preemtive disambig would not be advisable (i.e. 2005 novel, film, etc) but in this case i think the pro's far out weigh the cons. -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, are you saying that disambiguation isn't disambiguation?

I think that the summary doesn't quite do justice to the first option. The current guideline isn't "first come, first served"; it's "disambiguate only when necessary". Specifically, it's "disambiguate only when there would be confusion if you didn't." True, it's not readily apparent that The New and Improved Carl Morrissey is about an episode of The 4400; but then, it's not readily apparent that The Man in the Brown Suit is an Agatha Christie mystery — until you click on the link. We don't title that page The Man in the Brown Suit (novel), because there's nothing else that would claim that title. Similarly, unless there's another article that could be titled The New and Improved Carl Morrissey, we shouldn't title the article The New and Improved Carl Morrissey (The 4400 episode).

I'm also confused by the obsession that some editors have with "consistency". Why should we fetishize the names of articles? In any article related to the television series, an episode's name will be piped anyway. It's only in a category that people will see that some articles have the suffix and some do not. Do Category:First Doctor serials and the other daughter categories of Category:Doctor Who serials look less "professional" because the Doctor Who WikiProject follows standard Wikipedia practice? For that matter, does Category:Agatha Christie novels look less "professional" because some articles have the (novel) suffix and some do not? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, well stated, I agree. Shannernanner 00:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The point I was trying to make above is that televisions episodes are exceptional in that the episode titles are not usually known by anyone except avid fans of the series. I agree that it would be silly to use The Man in the Brown Suit (novel), because that book is generally referred to, and thought of, as "The Man in the Brown Suit," and not "Christie's 1924 novel" or "The one she wrote after Murder on the Links." TV episodes, on the other hand, are only known to most people as "last night's Heroes episode" or "the E.R. fifth season finale." I have become a pretty avid fan of Jericho, but I'd be hard pressed to give you the names of any of the episodes without looking at the episode list.

Because the most official name for a television episode is also the least-known and least-used, I think an exception to the Wikipedia standard is justified. --TobyRush 00:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Josiah, I agree with you in that there is nothing unprofessional about leaving off the disambiguation. I think it has more to do with ease-of-use than professionalism. --TobyRush 00:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough; I'm just not convinced that there is a significant ease-of-use advantage in adding a suffix every time.

I also think that there are probably plenty of casual readers of Agatha Christie novels who might think of, say, Appointment with Death as "the one set in Jerusalem". I don't see that as an argument for moving that page to Appointment with Death (novel). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you guys not pick two options? Seriously, it sets a bad example and it just attempt to have it "one way or the other". Should the two propositions just be merged? Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 00:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My own feeling is that it's a bad idea to pick one and only one way of doing with it, and then trying to force that one method on every episode article for every series. I think that for some series, using the suffixes is a good idea, and for others, the "only in cases of disambiguation" works well. But some others appear to disagree and want to insist that there should be only one method of handling it. Maybe we should add a "Flexibility" option to the above poll? Then we could a sentence like this to the guidelines: Certain shows such as Star Trek and Lost may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program. --Elonka 00:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Nohat, I am assuming good faith regarding your additions to the pros and cons above, but many of them seem (to me, anyway) to be somewhat redundant and some are a little flippant. I invite you to consolidate your arguments a little to more accurately represent the different sides of this issue. Thank you! --TobyRush 00:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are major advantages and disadvantages and minor advantages and disadvantages. Since many of the existing entries seemed to me to be extremely minor, it seemed reasonable to just make the lists as exhaustive as possible and let readers decide for themselves the significance each pro and con. As for whether any are redundant, I don't think any of my additions are; they all occurred to me as distinct advantages or disadvantages, although the distinction in some cases is somewhat subtle. Perhaps some related but subtly distinct pros and cons could be combined into single bullet points, but aren't we splitting hairs enough? Nohat 00:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

My view (as someone who is very peripheral to this discussion, on which I don't have immensely strong feelings) is that people are using the "Pro" and "Con" statements above to implicitly argue for their bias, rather than present a neutral laying out of various approaches. The statements seem overwhelmingly slanted towards Option 1, in other words. I find this objectionable as a debating style, frankly, and it makes me wonder why people feel they need to stack the deck in this manner. -- PKtm 00:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine, I removed everything but the options. Now, can get back to what's importante?

Elonka, no. Whatever the ultimate fallout is, a clear policy needs to be set, no exceptions. And I was talking about votes. People voting for guidelines two and three, specifically. We might as well merge them for now if people are just going to vote for both Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 00:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be OK with merging options 2 and 3 for now and then doing a sperate poll if that option prevails. -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the removal may have been a bit hasty. There were some valid points on both sides that people should take into consideration. Please consider restoring the information, perhaps putting it in a slightly different context. Nohat 00:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I rephrased the characterization of the existing policy from "first come first served" to "disambiguate only when necessary". I think that's a more accurate description. Whether the pros and cons are kept or not, I hope this can be retained. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Not to start anything but alot of the pros/cons that were added were just restating WP:NC and WP:D -- Argash  |  talk  |  contribs  | 00:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I think there are two arguments here that should be discussed separately:

1. Should article titles for television episodes use parenthetical disambiguations in all cases, or only when the article title is ambiguous?
2. When television article titles use parenthetical disambiguations (that is, regardless of which option is picked for choice 1), should the format of the parenthetical disambiguation be (SeriesName) or (SeriesName episode)?

The two questions are completely orthogonal, and the current format of the poll conflates them. Nohat 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For now, I think we should stick with the poll as it's structured, rather than making quick course changes. I see a lot of commentary here from people (including myself) who have the luxury of being able to check Wikipedia multiple times per day. But as I'm sure we all know, many Wikipedia editors who might like to offer an opinion, haven't even seen the poll yet. So I recommend letting it run for a few days, and give everyone a chance to weigh in. Meanwhile, we can also discuss proper wording for another poll, if one becomes necessary. Remember, Voting is Evil. We're not here for a "majority rules" option, we're here to try and have a good faith discussion, and see if we can find a consensus. For example, along with the "do it or don't do it" options, I still think it's worthwhile to discuss the "It depends" option, to allow flexibility in the titling systems for different television programs. --Elonka 01:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the poll format a bit so people can state a preference for disabig titles and indicate support or oppose for disabig only when necessary. Those who wish to oppose the latter will need to re-sign under the new section. Sorry for the late change, but I did sort of suggest this early on (and then had to go to work). -- Ned Scott 02:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this discussion could benefit from the KISS principle. Adding disambiguation when unnecessary just complicates things. If "Title" is redirecting to "Title (disambiguation)" the page always gets moved. Any argument that a particular type of article is an exception puts too much emphasis on trivia, which we also like to avoid. Jay32183 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the stupid votes for multiple policies and "opposition". Let's be clear: you cannot vote for two things, period. One or the other. By voting for one thing, you're voting against the other. Pick an option and stick with it. Double votes for dabbing and no dabing have been removed. If the voters really care, they can re-add ONE vote to ONE choice and no more. Honestly.... Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 07:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)