Talk:Mukkulathor

Meaning of Kallar

See in Tamil for most of the words there are several meanings if u are a tamilian you may definitely know it, here we peoples are not writing our own theory this meaning of Kallar (Brave peoples) was agreed by Venkataswamy nattar, and our Honorable Chief minister Karunanidhi

Please read கள்ளர் சரித்திரம் - நாவலர் பண்டித ந மு வேங்கடசாமி நாட்டார் and Thenpandi Singam by M. Karunanidhi.

There are lot of books were wriiten by other caste peoples about Kallar which clearly state their Bravery.

Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar. Maviran Pandara Vanniyan By Kalaingar. Pudhukkottai varalaru by Asif Alli. Palhuvetaraiyar by Palanimanicham

I also want to state some proof from Tamil literature for the meaning of Kallar.

Kallarin Kilavi Kariyon enba-Purananuru

Kallar Kooman Pulli – Purananuru

Kalvar Kalvan Perumbidugu Muthirayan – South Indian Inscriptions.

Kallaral puliyai veru Kaniya – Purananuru.

Where, Thirumal where Mal Means Black and Krishna means Black Please see tamil nadu official website for Krishnagiri.

List of Historians postulate Kallars are Chola and Pallava.

Dr.Barnal (டாக்டர் பர்னலும்) Srinivasa Iyengar (ம. சீனிவாசையங்கார்) Vengaswamy Rao (வெங்காசாமி ராவ்) வின்சன் ஏ. ஸ்மித் என்னும் சரித்திர அறிஞர் 'புராதன இந்திய சரித்திரம் என்னும் தமது நூலில் பல்லவர் வரலாறு கூறுமிடத்தே கள்ளர் வகுப்பினரையும் இயைந்து கூறுகின்றனர்.

PLease dont delete or damage articles which will spoil our valuable time.

if you want any more reference for any of the statements mentioned u r welcome to ask in Talk Page.

Thank You,

Rajnwiki (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Based on Castes and tribes of South India by Edgar Thurston, Volume 3, page 64 :

In the Census Report, 1901, Mr. Francis records that " the Kalians, Maravans, and Agamudaiyans are responsible for a share of the crime of the southern districts, which is out of all proportion to their strength in them. In 1897, the Inspector-General of Prisons reported that nearly 42 per cent, of the convicts in the Madura jail, and 30 per cent, of those in the Palamcottah jail in Tinnevelly, belonged to one or other of these three castes. --Jack.Able (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of the word Kallar (taken from Castes and tribes of South India by Edgar Thurston, Volume 3, page 53) :

The word Cullar(Kallar/Kallan) is used to express a thief of any caste, sect or country....--Jack.Able (talk) 06:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the answer is in your statement, Jack. It could be a thief from any caste or sect. Implying that all thieves in south india formed a new caste called kallar and that kallar means thief is very wrong in this context. So don't make such rash statements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It is really funny to see some people saying Edgar thurtan as a historian..he was a just joker who recorded british imperial wills ans whims..look at his book, he was just recording all heresay as per his boss (british) instruction. His book even much below the school book. He never knew Tamil, He never lived in Tamil society, then how could he made a book? There are lot books written in Tamil available now, proving all british era books are plain shit. Look how he deals with tanjore kallar, he say they have royal surnames, and skips that subject(tanjore Kallar) thereafter..Even there was only tamil king ruling tamilnadu during that time was kallar king thondaiman..and he says "Kallar means thief of any caste" LOL..was he historian ? non sense..did he know tamil? Noththing..what a funny ..Chritian Missionary conspiracy still going on in name of Wikipedia..176.45.111.163 (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2016

Please change Most Backward Class (MBC) to Backward Class (BC) because as per you reference in "Tamil Nadu Public Services Commission: List of Communities" see BC Communities List serial no 1. Agamudayar , Serial No 58. Kallar serial no 100. Maravar. Hope this changes would be done ASAP. Since you have given false information.

May I know on what basis you given MBC. Can you please provide evidence why you mentioned MBC.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 03:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC) 

Thanjaipvr (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:59, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

For your reference. This is the link which is already in this page as [2] "Tamil Nadu Public Services Commission: List of Communities". http://www.tnpsc.gov.in/communities-list.html#bc

Already I mentioned What serial no in the above link under BC.

I dont know what more you are expecting.

Thanjaipvr 03:36, 10 August 2016‎ (UTC)

 Done: All three peoples in this group are in the source's BC list. Some exceptions are noted; however, the list doesn't not expand to whether or not they are exceptionally more or less backward. Since none are in the MBC list, the logical conclusion is that to mention them as MBC probably means that their status has improved a bit over the years. In any case, it is clear to me that the source categorizes them as "backward class" rather than as "most backward class".  Rules of engagement Paine  23:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2016

Please remove They are known to practise female infanticide because as per your reference between page 11-15, it is geographic specific where less economic activity like farming, etc lead to less income.

The Mukkulathor comprise the Agamudayar, Kallar and Maravar. When you say Mukkulathor practise female infanticide,

1. You are generalize female infanticide to Agamudayar, Kallar and Maravar but it is not true. In addition, Kallar in other region like Thanjavur, Tiruchirapalli, Pudukottai is not practicing this. so it is not even Kallar common practice.

2. This was practiced in Usilampatti but not now. either remove or mention specific region and specif caste in the past. Do not generalize.

Thanjaipvr (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I clearly mentioned based on your reference, it only talks about geography and particular sub sect(Piramalai Kallar) not entire community. One of earlier talk, your reviewer mentioned page 11-15 on the following link. Hope you understand our feelings. [1]

Muthulakshmi, R. (1997). Female Infanticide, Its Causes and Solutions. Discovery Publishing. pp. 11–13. ISBN 978-8-17141-383-6.

https://books.google.com/books?id=N1Q_TdiGzVIC&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanjaipvr 03:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add the following content in Notable Person

Bhaskara Sethupathy (1873 to1895) was a Raja of Ramnad and regarded as a pious, brilliant and generous ruler by his supporters. In 1892, Swami Vivekananda stayed with Bhaskara when he visited Madurai and he sponsored Vivekananda's visit to Parliament of the World's Religions held in Chicago.[5] During his stay, Swami Vivekananda had extensive discussions on Hindu philosophy with eminent scholars like Mahavidwan R. Raghava Iyengar. [5]

Rani Velu Nachiyar was an 18th-century Indian queen from Sivaganga. She was the first queen to fight against the British in India. [6][11]

The Marudhu Pandiyar brothers (Periya Marudhu Chinna Marudhu) ruled Sivagangai, Tamil Nadu towards the end of the 18th century. The Marudhu brothers were the first to issue a proclamation of independence from the colonial British rule from Trichy Thiruvarangam Temple, Tamil Nadu on 10 June 1801, more than 56 years before what is generally said to be the First War of Indian Independence which broke out mainly in Northern India in the year. [10]

Pandithurai Thevar, The founder of the fourth Tamil Sangam was formed on the 14th of September, 1901. [7][8][9]

Pasumpon Muthuramalinga Thevar, Freedom Fighter, Social Reformer, Political Leader, Parliamentarian, known for his relationship with Nethaji, leader of the All India Forward Bloc (AIFB) in Tamil Nadu, and was national deputy chairman of the party from 1952 onwards. He was elected thrice to parliament

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaskara_Sethupathi

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velu_Nachiyar

[7] http://maduraitamilsangam.com/founder.html

[8] http://gksadagoban.blogspot.com/2008/01/founder-of-fourth-tamilsangam.html

[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palavanatham

[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruthu_Pandiyar

[11] http://www.tamilhindu.com/2010/07/great-women-warriors-of-sivagangai/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 01:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: Firstly, I understand if things have changed for the better over the last almost twenty years since the source was published (1997). It is likely in my opinion that the processes of education have had a positive effect on the rates of female infanticide in the regions described in this article. Without a more updated reliable source, the information you would like changed can only be changed by what Wikipedia calls "original research". So the requirement is a modern reliable source that confirms your information, and I hope you find one or more good ones. Secondly, it appears that there may have been a good deal of controversy and contention in regard to a notable persons section. That then would be what caused its removal from the article. As it would have taken a consensus to remove the section, it would take a new consensus to reinstate it. And please obtain a consensus before further usage of the edit semi-protected template. Thank you, and I sincerely hope that you find updated sources for the first issue, and that you are able to obtain a consensus in regard to the second issue!  Rules of engagement Paine  23:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2016

Please change Most Backward Class (MBC) to Backward Class (BC)

Because as per you reference in

see BC Communities List

Serial no 1. Agamudayar

Serial No 58. Kallar

Serial no 100. Maravar.

Hope this changes would be done ASAP. Since you have given false information and it is very sensitive info. May I know on what basis you given MBC since your existing reference is wrong.

References

Thanjaipvr (talk) 12:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: It appears to me that the regions in which this group of people lives are listed as exceptions in the BC list in the source provided. However, I am far from an expert in this area, so I will leave this open in hopes that a more knowledgeable editor might be able to help. Topher385 (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done: All three peoples in this group are in the source's BC list. Some exceptions are noted; however, the list doesn't not expand to whether or not they are exceptionally more or less backward. Since none are in the MBC list, the logical conclusion is that to mention them as MBC probably means that their status has improved a bit over the years. In any case, it is clear to me that the source categorizes them as "backward class" rather than as "most backward class".  Rules of engagement Paine  23:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for changes. Tamilnadu/Indian government is not revising category on some period.

All Backward Community is called Other Back Ward class by Indian Government, That is not required, since it can be inferred. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 03:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Please change sentence on the introduction "and claim to have once been members of ancient South Indian dynasties."

with the following sentence from the R Muthulakshmi book reference on the same para where you took the above(page 11 last para and 12 first para).

"People believed that these clans descended from three ancient major clans namely Cholas(Kallar), Pandians(Maravar) and Cheras(Agamudayar)"

Please add district in Demographics like Theni, Dindigul, Sivaganga, Tiruchirapalli, Thriuvarur, Nagapattinam. since over the period, Thanjavur was divided into Thriuvarur and Nagapattinam and Madurai was divided into Theni and Sivaganga. Tiruchirapalli and Dindigul was missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanjaipvr (talk • contribs) 11:51, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Please remove Politics section. It has no relevance and creates conflicts between 2 community. This kind of conflict happened between Dalit and other community across Tamilnadu and India.

Caste system diluted when Agriculture Economy overtaken by Industrial and information economy across the India and World.

Don't be smart and once sided. if you are not from Tamilnadu and does not know reality, so please don't write blindly based on the Book reference.

Similarly Thevar community also improved their economy through education and entrepreneurship and work as professionals across the world. I did not see any such point and always trying to mention they economically not progressed as if you have statistic. Even India government has no statistics. Please be aware, Tamilnadu is one of the Industrialized state in India. This growth can be seen across all section of people.

Please remove "the sociologist Hugo Gorringe noted in 2005 that "their educational and economic achievements have been negligible", with many being small farmers or agricultural labourers.[6]"

This reference cannot be considered as valid unless government of India or Tamilnadu Government published recently.

Please remove They have been recorded as practicing female infanticide as recently as the 1990s.[1][4][a]

I am repeatedly raising this point that it is a practice of particular sub sect(Piramalai Kallar) in and around Usilampatti. Mukulathore comprise Agamudayar, Kallar, Maravar. So don't generalize. It is sensitive information.

Hope you understand and take action on the all the above point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:246:0:1D30:B805:6E2F:112A:1B6A (talk) 04:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Past as rulers

The Hollow Crown: Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom By Nicholas B. Dirks, University of Michigan Press.. Please use this book to expand this article. The current article speaks very little about their military past. I dont have complete access to this book. If you have access to this book, please try to expand this article. Thank you.Mayan302 (talk) 10:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Mukkulathor is caste of robbers

Mukkulathor is caste of robbers. We need a separate section on this.

Paths to Power and Patterns of Influence: The Dravidian Parties in South Indian Politics

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=thevar+robbers#tbm=bks&q=thevar+robber+caste Ingrid Widlund

Christianity in India: Search for Liberation and Identity F. Hrangkhuma https://books.google.com/books?id=KMrYAAAAMAAJ&dq=thevar+kallar+thief&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=thieves

Ethnicity and Populist Mobilization: Political Parties, Citizens, and Democracy in South India Oxford University https://books.google.com/books?id=iyuBAAAAMAAJ&dq=thevar+kallar+thief&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=theft

Actually, according to the article they are not a caste at all but rather a group of castes. I think Kallar is generally recognised as having claims such as those you make. - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Add another notable peoples

P.k.mokkiah thevar , pulithevan Kavin manoharan (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

No source and no article = no mention. - Sitush (talk) 17:03, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Sitush are you surely know about this Incase there is an articles in wiki Kavin manoharan (talk) 09:21, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

How dare you tell that Kavin manoharan (talk) 09:22, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Did you mean P.K. Mookiah Thevar? That article doesn't seem to have a source for him being a Mukkulathor. - Sitush (talk) 17:05, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Sitush you first understand about the community

MUKKULATHOR also called as a THEVAR Kavin manoharan (talk) 16:19, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Last name is not verification of caste - see User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. - Sitush (talk) 16:42, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Discuss the mukkulathor history as criminal tribes

Discuss the links

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=QHduAAAAMAAJ&q=thevar+criminal+tribes&dq=thevar+criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjarYGcgtLcAhWIGpAKHVvEAw84ChDoAQgoMAA

https://books.google.com/books?id=joKTCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA197&dq=Mukkulathors++criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwuN_d44TdAhX3HjQIHfy6Cv8Q6AEISjAG#v=onepage&q=Mukkulathors%20%20criminal%20tribes&f=false

Mentions the Mukkulathor as criminal tribes and their profession seems to be bandit and thief for some time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangitha rani111 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sangitha rani111: From what I have seen the content you are adding is inappropriately phrased, being given undue weight by placement in lede and stand-alone section, and extrapolates from the cited sources. But if you are wiling to discuss the issue, we can decide what is worth including and what are the appropriate sources to cite. To begin with, can you quote the relevant bits from the sources you have listed above and your recent edit that support the content you wish to add? Note that the subject of this article is Mukkulathor and not its constituent groups per se. Abecedare (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Abecedare

I am providing three links

https://books.google.com/books?id=x7BPAQAAMAAJ&q=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&dq=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2qc-0qYbdAhV-IDQIHfEQBng4FBDoAQgoMAA Anand Sankar Pandian / University of California, Berkeley, 2004 Page 408 States "Petition to the government of India by the Mukkulathor Sangham .... to repeal the Criminal Tribes Act" - Please read

https://books.google.com/books?id=joKTCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA197&dq=mukkulathor++crime+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicsJSNqYbdAhUKGDQIHSDZARsQ6AEITjAH#v=onepage&q=mukkulathor%20%20crime%20tribes&f=false Page 197 From the Margins to the Mainstream: Institutionalising Minorities in South Asia/edited by Hugo Gorringe, Roger Jeffery, Suryakant Waghmore States " Muthuramalingam ... best know for mobilizing thevars ....criminal tries act "

https://books.google.com/books?id=pOqgYpCgCXsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=mukkulathor++criminal+tribes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU8aKEp4bdAhXPGTQIHV_8D58Q6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=mukkulathor&f=false Crooked Stalks: Cultivating Virtue in South India / By Anand Pandian Mukkulathor Sangham petitioned .... organizing against the criminal tribes act

I would like to add a section on Criminal tribes with contents explaining the history behind the act

Please do let me know your thoughts