Talk:Saint Thomas Christians

Why the "Saint Thomas Christians" called the "Syrian Christians":

I have read different opinions in different articles. I would like to point out some of it.

1)They are also called Syrian Christians because of their use of Syriac, which is a dialect of Aramaic, in liturgy.

2)The Malankara Church is a church of the Saint Thomas Christians of Kerala, India, with particular emphasis on the part of the community that joined Archdeacon Mar Thoma in swearing to resist the authority of the Portuguese Padroado in 1653. This faction soon entered into a relationship with the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, and was thereafter often known as the Malankara 'Syrian' Church. Ref:Gregorios & Roberson, p. 285;Vadakkekara, p. 91.

Here they say the church came to be known as Syrian church because of their relationship with Syriac Orthodox Church in Antioch.

3) The term Syrian relates not to their ethnicity but to their historical, religious and liturgical connection to the Church of the East, or East Syrian Church. Ref:Županov, Ines G. (2005). Missionary Tropics: The Catholic Frontier in India (16th–17th centuries), p. 99 and note. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-11490-5

4)At least from the fourth century the Indian Church entered into a close relationship with the Persian or East Syrian Church. From the Persians, the Indians inherited East Syrian language and liturgies and gradually came to be known as Syrian Christians.

5)Syriac Christianity (Syriac: ܡܫܝܚܝܘܬܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܬܐ‎ / mšiḥāiūṯā suryāiṯā) encompasses the multiple Churches of Eastern Christianity whose services tend to feature liturgical use of ancient Syriac, a dialect of Middle Aramaic that emerged in Edessa in the early 1st century AD, and is closely related to the Aramaic of Jesus.

Ref:Allen C. Myers, ed (1987). "Aramaic". The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans. p. 72. ISBN 0-8028-2402-1.

6)The dutch colonial people in India first called the Saint Thomas Christians as "Syrian Christians' 7) I contest this 6th point. They were called Suriyani Christianis for centuries all together.

The division of Nasranis or Malankara Nasranis.

The St Thomas Christians church or "Malankara Sabha", was split into two because of Catholic Church authorities tried to tie it under its belt, now the details about the division is also seemed to have influenced by Catholics. Need to edit the details given about the divisions of Nasranis Syriannasrani (talk) 15:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The pattern of writing is not easy to read, can we edit to make it more lucid and simple to read (45.248.92.96 (talk) 13:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC))

Requested move 8 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: WP:SNOW not moved. This RM is clearly not going to pass. (closed by page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 02:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

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Saint Thomas Christians → Mar Thoma Nasrani – per WP:COMMON NAME, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes) - Self identification Achayan (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:05, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

• @Achayan: Better discuss this move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:05, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The present name is the WP:COMMONNAME. No evidence that the proposed title is common or otherwise preferable.Cúchullain ^t/c 01:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: St. Thomas is the WP:COMMONNAME. The redirection from Mar Thoma Nasrani seems sufficient. Crawford88 (talk) 05:35, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: The most common English terms for this community are 'Syrian Christians of Kerala' and less frequently, Saint Thomas Christians. It is true that 'Nasrani' used to be a popular colloquial term in Malayalam for this community until mid/late 20th century. AFAIK the combinative term 'Mar Thoma Nasrani' was not common and if at all used would have been restricted to formal contexts such as documents, speeches or books or in specific church contexts. Considering the above, I believe that the redirection from Mar Thoma Nasrani to Saint Thomas Christians is proper, contemporary and efficient. Sahrudayan (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: St. Thomas is the WP:COMMONNAME. This isn't the Syriac wikipedia. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Add information about the division in simple terms

"Syrian Christians are divided mainly into Syrian Catholic, Jacobite, Orthodox, Marthoma churches depending upon whether they owe their allegiance to the Pope in Rome, the Patriarch in Antioch, Catholicos in Kerala’s Kottayam or Metropolita in Thiruvalla."

Essenes/ Rabbinic Judaism

1) Essenes was a community that existed between 2nd century and 1st century AD. Manimekalai may or may not refer to a community existing in South India. However there are no credible sources linking Essenes to the Nasrani community of today. Please provide reference to an academic text or paper. 2) Rabbinic Judaism barely influenced the Cochin Jews by the 16th century. There is no way it influenced in any meaningful way the Nasrani community particularly after the Portuguese Synod. I do grant that Portuguese did proscribe the following of some Jewish customs. 3) Judeo-christian roots. The Thoma Parvam mention some Jews who converted to Judaism, but very little academic sources linking the two communities (though there is some reason to believe the Knanayas have had some links).

I suggest these connections are speculative. At best they are new theories and not established knowledge.

If you disagree please provide references (including page numbers), and we can go through the academic sources together. Josslined (talk) 19:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Would like to add the debunking of St. Thomas myth

Both the catholic church as well as several archaeological evidences have thoroughly debunked the possibility of Thomas having come to India (if he even existed). https://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/category/christian-mythology/

Can we update this wiki to reflect this please? this is largely a folklore created to give legitimacy to the belief.