Talk:Oscar López Rivera

Needs attention

This article is a dog's breakfast. The section titles are terrible, too. It needs attention, ideally from someone quite familiar with Lopez's case.184.145.42.19 (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Actually there is plenty of work to be done even by those with little subject matter expertise. Just organizing and getting things into position, getting citations out of the summary unless they are essential, removing some wordy writing, completing citations. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 03:28, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

I started a reorganization, just to get something like an outline. I get the feeling that there has been substantial episodes of biased editing in the past. Somehow Clinton has almost no positive support for his conditional clemency, while Obama has very little criticism! The escape attempt was practically buried. The nuts-and-bolts details like which prison he was in when are handled only accidentally in the course of argument. There is probably a lot of useful material to recover from the history, and in any case, the story needs to be fleshed out. I just hope that a little organization will help things from getting so crazy again. Wnt (talk) 12:21, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Bmclaughlin9 and Wnt for your substantial improvements to this article. -Darouet (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Lead section

I've removed the tallying up of FALN bomb attacks in the lead section as WP:UNDUE – this material is already covered in the article on Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional Puertorriqueña, and neither article states that López Rivera was involved directly in these attacks. The source used for the phrase "more than 120 bomb attacks" doesn't mention López Rivera at all. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

There's no shortage of media RSs that discuss the bombings prominently in articles about Rivera - Guardian, CBC, NYT, etc. The lead needs to mentions FALN's tactics as well as their goals, in line with the sources. NPalgan2 (talk) 23:43, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

The article clearly states that López Rivera was an acknowledged leader of the FALN, an organization that perpetrated these violent actions. Leadership implicitly includes accountability for the actions, (often directed, sanctioned or merely to aware of such deeds), committed by those to whom the leader is reported to by. In short, a leader does not have to get their hands dirty. but rather to be merely in the loop for culpability to exist. Hammersbach (talk) 01:22, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Talk pages are not a forum for general discussion. The above comment has no bearing on improving the article within the relevant content policies. I've removed the phrase "killing five" from the lead sentence, since it unduly implicates López Rivera in the deaths, while he was never charged with any specific bombings. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:07, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Richard Pascarella

The statement by Richard Pascarella is relevant since it aptly refers to the clemency offered to López Rivera was an acknowledged leader of the FALN. Pascarella was a victim of FALN violence. It can be argued that the fact that he is "Peurto Rican" (sic) is not relevant to his opinions. I would be agreeable to removing that phrase, but if the opinions of Tito Kayak are considered worthwhile, then I think that Pascarella, a law officer harmed by FALN, should have equal or more weight. The prior article made it sound that there was only a movement for clemency, and made little mention of the crimes attributed to his organization. I think to remove the opinions of Pascarella, diminishes the the strong sentiments that opposed clemency.Rococo1700 (talk) 20:12, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

It's a valid point to say that leaving Tito Kayak's opinion may have slanted the article's presentation. I've removed both Kayak's and Pascarella's views as WP:UNDUE – BLP articles must be extra cautious in reproducing opinions about living people – in particular, even though these were reported by independent sources, the opinions in question are not those of any recognized legal experts. Being a victim of a FALN attack might make someone a good guest on the Oprah Winfrey Show, but it doesn't automatically make someone a subject-matter expert for encyclopedic purposes. And in any case, detailed responses to the organization belong at Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional Puertorriqueña, not Rivera's bio, per WP:COATRACK, WP:WEIGHT, WP:BLPSTYLE, etc. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:21, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Please do not engage in edit wars. The text as it stood attempted to balance the strong opinions on both sides. I have removed the quote from Pascarella, but not the fact that he was part of the effort to stymie the release. You fail to convince me that your effort was sincere, since you only removed one mention of Tony Kayak, but not the others, and not the mentions of Spanish students or TV personalities. Clearly Pascarella has as valid, and as influential an opinion, as all those others. None of the latter has been maimed by the organization of which OLR was a leader. If you continue to change the original article, then we should request an administrative review. You are injecting your biases into argument, selectively editing out the opinions. Such bias has no place in Wikipedia.Rococo1700 (talk) 05:20, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I won't respond to such personal attacks, but I have tagged the article with {{POV}}. At minimum, the back-and-forth between supporters and opponents of López Rivera should be removed. See the relevant policy at WP:BALANCE, WP:STRUCTURE, and WP:WEIGHT. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:24, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to Pascarella, which is sourceable only to a single breaking-news article from 1999 (see WP:NOTNEWS). I don't have a strong opinion on whether to include Tito Kayak's response, but at the very least it comes from a wiki-notable person, unlike Pascarella's response. The concerns about balance and structure of the article (i.e., not presenting a back-and-forth between supporters and opponents) still apply. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:43, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Sangdeboeuf's edits

I have problems with Sangdeboeuf's selective edits on this text. He repeatedly only targets one version of the story, deletes items that are clearly stated in the sources. I am reverting the text to the original prior to his revisions. I prefer that you bring these up for discussion before unilaterally altering the established text, which attempted to provide a balanced, and sourced, biography. I recommend you see WP:BALANCE, WP:STRUCTURE, and WP:WEIGHT. You cannot just slant the text to your point of view.Rococo1700 (talk) 02:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Let me address some of the edits with specific comments: The introduction states correctly that OLR was a leader in the FALN, and notes that five deaths are attributed to the group. I do not think that the phrase killing five can be attributed grammatically to OLR, since it is separated from his name by a long phrase defining the FALN. One alternative would be to say that the FALN is a a clandestine paramilitary organization devoted to Puerto Rican independence that between 1974 and 1983 carried out more than 120 bomb attacks in the United States, which caused five deaths.[1][2][3][4][5]

I think it is important to link OLR to a group that was involved in violence that lead to deaths. The term "political prisoner" used later makes it sound that he was only imprisoned for his beliefs. This fact above, well sourced, provides balance. Rococo1700 (talk) 03:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)