Talk:Lee Harvey Oswald

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Lee Oswald's right-wing friends

Lee Oswald's mother believed that her son worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. At that time the CIA was going through a very violent period in its history with close connections with mobsters, and right-wing fanatics. The CIA had a bad history of conspiring in assassination plots, bribing the news media, and other lawless behavior. The Wikipedia article on the CIA details some of the history.

Lee Oswald came from a family connected with organized crime in New Orleans and was in the Civil Air Patrol until he was 17. The Civil Air Patrol is an auxiliary branch to the United States Air Force. There he met right-wing fanatic, David Ferrie, who was connected with both mobsters and the Central Intelligence Agency in New Orleans. Oswald later connected up again with Ferrie in the months leading up to the Kennedy assassination. At the time Kennedy was murdered Ferrie was working for a mob boss in New Orleans that wanted Kennedy dead.

This was explored for the first time in any detail by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Ferrie died a sudden death before he had to testify.

Another right-wing Texan by the name of George de Mohrenschildt, who had a number of ties with the CIA and had close ties with very wealthy Texas right wingers, became Oswald's best friend in the year before the assassination. George de Mohrenschildt reportedly committed suicide after being contacted by the House Select Committee on Assassinations about his ties with Oswald. The Wikipedia article on de Mohrenschildt discusses this briefly.

At 17, Oswald went into the Marines as did his older brother whom he idolized. Oswald was stationed at an air base in Japan where the CIA operated its U-2 spy plane flights over Russia. It was there in the Marines that Oswald learned to speak Russian.

Oswald then unexpectedly "defected" to the Soviet Union and then returned to the United States, and got back together with right wing fanatics.

This background of Oswald as developed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations needs to be presented in the Oswald article along with the assumptions in the article that he really was a Communist.

The oddest thing about Oswald is that if he were a Communist, he never seemed to have any Communist friends. Once we get some of this information into the article it will provide the reader other significant viewpoints of Oswald than was presented 42 years ago by the Warren Commission.

There are plenty of sources. Looking back on the "history" of this article, I’ve noticed time and again that reliable information backed up by reliable sources is deleted because some one doesn't like it. One point that is repeatedly taken out of any assassination article is information that didn’t become public until fairly recently:

• • "But when LBJ then asked "Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico in September," an event of no little interest to the inner circles of government, Hoover replied "No, that's one angle that's very confusing for this reason. We have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet Embassy, using Oswald's name. The picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there." In other words, an imposter had implicated Oswald in a relationship with Soviet agents, less than two months before the assassination.”

[[1]

I will try again now that November 22 is coming up again and many students and others will be reading the Kennedy Assassination related articles.

RPJ 06:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ferrie died almost 10 years before the HSCA convened. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 18:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Ferrie's untimely death came just before the Garrison trial with whom Ferrie allegedly conspired.

RPJ 04:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Rebuttal to information of Oswald's right wing friends

There is NO credible evidence that Oswald connected with Ferrie again just before the assassination. The witness testimony was later admitted to be completely lied about, or else from people who did not know the men personally at the time, which kind of testimony we've since learned is worthless. All indended comments here are mine, and further margin comments are RPJ's SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ferrie died long, long before the HSCA hearings. He had a brain hemorrhage after telling the FBI he didn't even remember or know Oswald.SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

So? de Mohrenschildt was hardly Oswald's best friend by anybody's account, including de Mohrenschildt's. And what's the point of discussing him? His main place in history is as a recipient of an Oswald backyard rifle picture, signed by Oswald. So much for the fake. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oswald studied Russian informally from the mid 50's on. And never was very good at it. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

de Mohrenschildt as right wing fanatic? Come, now. And there is no good evidence that Oswald had anything to do with Ferrie or Banister, despite Oliver Stone's fantasies. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Earth to RPJ. He really was a Communist. Just not a Soviet-believer by that time. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Communist friends are hard to find in Texas. Oswald found as many Russophiles as he could, including Ruth Paine and de Morhenschildt. As a right winger, De M would hardly have found the backyard photo funny, nor would Oswald have sent it. But he did. And he did take that shot at rapidly right wing General Walker. Does that sound like a CIA plan? SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

”Less than 24 hours after the assassination of President Kennedy, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover reported to the new President Johnson on the state of the investigation. Noting that the evidence against [Oswald] is "not very very strong", Hoover reported on the tracing of the rifle to an alias of Oswald and other details implicating him in the shooting.

That must be a dictation error. By that time, Hoover would have been saying IS very, very strong. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Another FBI screwup, and another Hoover premature and confused summary, just to have smoke to blow. None of this made it into any final reports. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Ferrie would have sailed through the Garrison trial even better than Shaw did, having great alibies. Garrison's lucky the man stroked out. Poor Ferrie's rep is not so lucky. SBHarris 06:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Was a right winger Oswald’s “best friend?”

• Besides knowing right wing fanatic David Ferrie, who worked for the CIA and the New Orleans mob boss, the House Select Committee on Assassinations pointed out that Oswald considered de Mohrenschildt his “best friend” and in return de Mohrenschildt considered Oswald a good friend. This was odd since de Mohrenschildt also had extreme right wing leanings. His Nazi leanings are discussed in the House Report in 1979. [2]

• The HSCA Report which went deeply into this strange relationship. In fact, de Mohrenschildt felt that one of the senators implied that he and Oswald had a homosexual relationship, but de Mohrenschildt claimed this was not so. He said they were just good friends he said.

• The Congressional Committee’s report noted that de Mohrenschildt died of a gunshot wound on the day the committee investigator contacted him: “Apparent suicide.”

• de Mohrenschildt said he had conferred with the CIA before befriending Oswald and was told “He is ok.” For help given to the CIA, de Mohrenschildt believed that he received some valuable business deals in Haiti. This is all in the government report. [3]

• This Report should help clarify Oswald's background and give substance to what Oswald's mother believed that he was a CIA agent recruited while in the Civil Air Patrol as a teen ager (probably by David Ferrie who was notorious pedophile). This would explain why Oswald was stationed at CIA bases when he was in the Marines. If Oswald's mother was correct, Oswald was an agent that went undercover and then used as a "patsy" by the right wing fanatics when they killed the President.RPJ 09:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

RPJ 07:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted info

I deleted the following information because I could find no source supporting it. Please find a reliable source for it. Thanks

“ On Monday, April 1, after six months of work, Oswald's supervisor terminated Oswald's employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, after seeing him reading a Russian satiric magazine (Krokodil or Crocodile, named for its political bite) in the cafeteria. ”

Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Magic Bullet" : Was Oswald framed?

Now we can give the full picture on each of the alternative theories on the origin of the "Magic Bullet." Oswald claimed he was framed and didn't murder the President. Then Oswald was murdered. Now he is blamed for the President's murder by the Warren Commission whose conclusion rests on a "magic bullet." From where did the "magic bullet" come. The three theories are:

• The Magic Bullet came out of the body of Governor Connally:
  • Although [Hospital employee]Tomlinson was not certain whether the bullet came from the Connally stretcher or the adjacent one, the Commission has concluded that the bullet came from the Governor's stretcher. Warren Report

• The Magic Bullet came out of the body of JFK:
  • A week after the assassination, J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson that the "matching" bullet came out of Kennedy--not Connally-- when Kennedy was given heart massage. FBI [4]

• The Magic Bullet was planted to frame Oswald, by Jack Ruby (who then went on to murder Oswald):

• • The bullet that is said to have inflicted seven wounds in two men, breaking a rib and shattering a wrist, was found in near-pristine condition on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital after the wounded men had been rushed there for treatment. It came complete with the rifling marks of Oswald's weapon. The Commission was so worried about the implication of a "planted" bullet that it refused to believe that Jack Ruby was at the hospital at a time when he could have placed the bullet on the stretcher, even though [Seth Kantor] a respected journalist who knew Ruby swore to the Commission that he spoke with Ruby at the hospital, a story corroborated by a second witness who saw Ruby there. Skeptics [5] RPJ 07:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, give it up. The idea of the bullet coming from JFK was based on the report of two FBI agents at the autopsy, and was out of date already when they wrote it, and certainly by the time Hoover used it. This is exactly the reason such stuff shouldn't go in the article. The doctors had called Dallas trying frantically to figure out the non-penetrating neck wound and were told of the intact stretcher bullet, but NOT of the throat exit hole. So they made a preliminary guess about the heart massage taking out a non-penetrating intact back-bullet. Only later, when it was found from fibers that the front throat hole not only existed but was an exit, with X-ray air connected the two holes in the neck, did the doctors learn better, and figure it out. (Also, the Warren Commission found the stretcher bullet could not have come from JFK's stretcher, whereever it came from, at least if the man who found it was to be believed). Hoover at this time was still in the dark. So sad. SBHarris 19:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Ruby shot Oswald, after first stopping off to wire a little bit of help-money to a stripper (who cares if you're about to murder a man? You gotta do what you gotta do...). Which act would actually have made him late for the assassination, had the Oswald transfer not happened to ALSO have been late. Great plan, there, Ruby, but you lucked out. And Ruby took his dog along and left it in the car. Maybe he thought it would enjoy sitting out there after he was arrested; or maybe he thought they were going to quickly give him a medal and let him go home with it. Yeah, I see evidence of a massively powerful mind in Ruby, all right. ;) If he planted the magic bullet at Parkland, I can well imagine him getting the wrong stretcher. SBHarris 19:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The above editor's ideas on presenting the three possible theories on the "magic" bullet are unclear. Which, if any, of the three theories does he want to keep out. Remember, 1) some believe the Magic bullet was planted by Jack Ruby or some one else before Ruby killed Oswald; 2) some, such as the FBI, think the bullet came from Kennedy's body; and 3) some believe the bullet came from Connally's body.

Consistent with web site policy, I think all three theories should be included. I provided the reliable citations.

Since, the editor above who might be oppossing the inclusion of all three, provides no citations for the information he cites, nor does he clarify what theories he wants to keep out of the article, he should try to clarify his position and provide reliable sources. RPJ 19:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There are a small number of people that still believe the Warren Report

Above is a person who still believes the Warren Report. That is his right. Also it is proper to put in the Oswald article the Warren Report theory of the "magic" bullet, both where the Warren Report theorized it came from and its odd ballistic qualities. I'm not sure if that person wants to exclude some or part of the three viewpoints on the "magic" bullet.

The policy of this web site is neutrality: In other words all three viewpoints should be included and allow the reader to decide.

Therefore, all three theories should go into the article.

RPJ 07:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm probably going to regret wasting words on you, but:

1. The idea that Ruby or anyone else planted the bullet is pure conjecture backed by nothing. It is no more a "viewpoint" than the idea that Kennedy faked his own death and now lives on the planet Tralfamadore with Elvis.

2. What makes you think that you have the right to add that phony header to SBH's response above? That's just wrong. Joegoodfriend 08:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You can believe anything you want to believe.

I moved what he wrote. The editor took it upon himself to intersperse what I had written with a number of his comments. That is similar to butting in while a person is speaking. One sees this all the time on the TV talk shows where people rudely don't even let people finish what they are trying to say, but instead try to drown them out.RPJ 09:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You may have yourself confused with Geraldo Rivera. Indeed, on a TV talk show you otherwise wouldn't be allowed to go on with point after point, for as long as you liked, with nobody interrupting you. Also, you're not an invited political speaker at a luncheon here. And I'm sorry, but this is not a wedding at which you're either preacher or bride. You rather are here as one among equals, and in an actual group of such equal people at a function, if you insisted on long speeches to everyone with no interruptions, then YOU would be viewed as the boor, and rightly so. We have Robert's Rules of Order to deal with such boors in actual social situations involving real-time debate (which this isn't). Thus, in your case, I'd leave the whole "conversation metaphor" alone, because you're on the wrong side of it.

That said, this is actually not a real-time conversation, but a point-by-point debate in print. In which it's often easier to intersperse comments to differing points, for ease of following by those reading and adding after. You might not like that style of point by point nested rebuttal, but that's too bad. It's done and accepted, and it's not going to change for you. SBHarris 19:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved his comments down to its own spot and gave it a header. If he didn't like the header he should have made his own. RPJ 09:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'll be glad to make offensive headers for your comments, and move them around if I don't like them. But I think it would be a violation of WP:POINT. In any case, as others have told you, quit it.SBHarris 19:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't stick offensive headers onto other people's comments. Consider that an official administrative warning. Restrict your comments to article content and stop giving us your opinions about other editors. We're all well aware of what you think about the rest of us. Gamaliel 07:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

To what do you refer, when you say the offensive offensive header?

And whom do you include within the definition of "the rest of us."

What opinion do you claim is incorrect?

RPJ 08:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Your approach of constantly feigning ignorance when you are called on your offensive behavior is both tiresome and unconvincing. If you really were confused about the nature you could have easily checked the edit history where you would have immediately seen the edit where I removed the header you created. You have no problem digging up quotes from other editors when it is to your advantage, so your claim of ignorance here fools no one. You have been blocked for this type of behavior many times in the past. Restrict your comments to article content and do not attack other editors. Gamaliel 18:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The information below was deleted and no reason given

This information was deleted for no stated reason:

Back in the United States, the Oswalds settled in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Oswald had found a best friend in the well-educated and worldly petroleum geologist George de Mohrenschildt who held extreme right wing views. [6] Marina meanwhile was befriended by a married couple, Ruth Paine and her husband Michael.

• The above information was prepared and published in 1979 by a Congressional Committee called the House Select Committee on Assassinations.[ [7]]

• The citation contains a lengthy report on Lee Oswald’s very close relationship with de Morhenschild. [[8]]

• Oswald’s mother testified before the Warren Commission that she believes Oswald worked for the CIA. Facts already in other parts of the article already suggest that Oswald did work for the CIA and as he claimed was set up as a "patsy" for the murder.

• The citation to the Congressional Report on de Morhenschildt's relationship to Oswald was replaced by information supported by no source; much less a reliable source.

Conclusion:Taking out information based on a reliable citation to a congressional committee report, and replacing it with new information that has no citation to any source does not comply with the policy of the web site that information be supported by reliable sources.

RPJ 19:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who deleted it, and perhaps they have other reasons. But, once again it appears that you are doing original research. Your consclusions are not born out in the HSCA report. No where in the cite provided does it say that de Mohrenschildt had "extreme right-wing views". Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

RPJ, your edit summary said you were merely adding a citation, but instead you removed a significant amount of material while adding your own POV pushing. You can't complain about the lack of an edit summary from others if yours are inaccurate or misleading. Gamaliel 19:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)