Talk:Brutalist architecture

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web design

I added a mention[1] of the recent trend of "brutalist web design" that has recently been getting press (I gave just one citation but there's a fair amount more coverage out there). Another editor took it out and moved it to the web design article, on the basis that this current article is about architecture, so the addition here was out of place.

I'll defer to others here but I thought it was a reasonable addition to the current article as well, since it documents the influence of the brutalist architectural movement in areas outside architecture, which is imho of some relevance to the architecture article. So I'd support adding it back, maybe with different phrasing per the above. It's not a big deal either way, but I'm mentioning it here in case anyone else has thoughts. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 20:30, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

"a case example of" (photograph caption)

What is this supposed to mean? I have never heard this expression before, and I am a 64-year-old native speaker of English.213.127.210.95 (talk) 12:42, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

"Brutalism" vs. "New Brutalism"

Hi. I'm currently sighting the sources. There seems to be some confusion between Brutalism and New Brutalism (therefore the first Brutalist building actually isn't) Also other small things. See my comments:

• The term Brutalism was formed by Le Corbusier (French speaking as betón brut is French) and spreaded via Congrès Internationaux d'Architecture Moderne. There's not much written I found about that.
• The Frech term "brut" also means "brutal" or "rude", of course. Not only raw. And that's how it is intended. I also found the term "warehouse style" used by Le Corbusier, Mies van der Rohe and Frank Lloyd Wright (but would not mention in this article).
• The (first) Banham Article I found is from 1955. Furthermore it is about "New Brutalism", not Brutalism. His approach is widening the limitations of "Brutalism" so also Villa Göth (1952) or Hunstanton School (1949-1954) is covered (which would usually not be considered Brutalism). This worked yesterday, today it's asking me to register: https://www.architectural-review.com/rethink/viewpoints/the-new-brutalism-by-reyner-banham/8603840.article
• Cite from the 1955 Banham Article (about Hunstanton school): this is a building that some brutalists can apparently accept as constituent new brutalist structure
• The "New Brutalists" later founded Team 10 and then later they crashed the Congrès Internationaux d'Architecture Moderne. They called it "New Brutalism" to delimit from Le Corbusier.
• The press did not really accept this initiative and complained about the awkward name "New Brutalism" http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-46209489.html (sorry it's German language)
• The Britannica uses the other Title "New Brutalism" instead "Brutalism" https://www.britannica.com/art/New-Brutalism
• Earlier Buildings: This one was long believed to be the "first" concrete church, at least in Europe: de:Heilig-Geist-Kirche (Wien) (planned from 1907, finished 1913). István Medgyaszay in Muľa was finished 1910.

Comments? --Thomas Ledl (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with this line of questioning. Especially the appropriation of "New Brutalism" by the Smithsons in the early 50's and using it to promote their own brand of architectural aesthetics and principles. It is however quite hard to apportion Brutalism to Le Corbusier as he hasn't been on record using the phrase as far as I'm aware (edit : I have since provided sufficient sources to support the etymology of the term to le Corbusier beyond dispute, see below)

I think it is a real pity that Asplund's term was hijacked by the Smithsons at such a formative stage in the history of Brutalism. I think that it's even a greater pity that the brick, suburban modernist detached homes that are now being described as "point zero" for Brutalism (ie Villa Goeth and Sughden House) are now considered part of the movement as a result. I only have one angle of approach to this : It would be possible to argue that Le Corbusier has been consistently on record mentioning beton brut in his writings in the 40s and infatuated by the material by that time, and that Asplund and the Simpsons coined and used "New Brutalism" in a sarcastic manner, possibly to mock Le Corbusier ? This could be consistent with the Team 10 /CIAM schism in 1953, which could have been simmering since the late 40s in architectural circles.

Many take Reyner Banham's 1955 essay as a veritable source on the origins of Brutalism. My view is that it was written at a very fluid phase in the course of the Modernist Movement, and as such, Banham was very careful in providing definitive answers. I think he is capturing the essence of this transitional phase very well in his essay, but I also think that we'd have to look in the 40s, long before Banham and New Brutalism, to source a fairer and more credible origin of the term. We need to look for the original "Old Brutalism that prompted the "New Brutalism" response in the early 50s, and I maintain that this "old Brutalism" is very likely to be distinctively Corbusian in nature. Is anyone up for researching this further?

I would very much favour this distinction between Nybrutalism and its derivatives as a reaction to Corbusian beton brut to be added to the History section.11 west (talk) 17:17, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

With all due respect, this very much strikes me as a Creationist trying to pick and create facts to support their preconceived notions rather than letting the evidence speak for itself.

The suggestion that Sugden House or Hunstanton School have only been associated with Brutalism recently is wrong. In fact, the neologism here is the suggestion that all Brutalist structures must be concrete or that Brutalism was derived from Beton Brut.

Beton Brut and Art Brut may have existed on their own but it was not until Banham came along that they were associated with Brutalism.

Le Corbusier never once used the term to describe his own work. On the contrary, however, the Smithsons DID. To deny that they, along with Banham and others in their circle, introduced and popularized the term and were responsible for its formative development is folly. The current origin of the term is quite credible. -Jtfolden (talk) 08:38, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, these are exactly the simplifications I seek to oppose. Le Corbusier must be credited, at least with the etymology of original term, as he has referred to the importance of beton brut since the 1920s. He becomes infatuated by it in the next decades. Quoting the sight of Chandigarh in a letter to his mother in the mid 50s : "It is an architectural symphony which surpasses all my hopes, which flashes and develops under the light in a way which is unimaginable and unforgettable. From far, from up close, it provokes astonishment; all made with raw concrete and a cement cannon. Adorable, and grandiose. In all the centuries no one has seen that"

But Le Corbusier also wrote about concrete in his seminal Vers Un Architecture as early as 1923 "Reinforced concrete has brought about a revolution in the aesthetics of construction. By supressing the roof and replacing it with terraces, reinforced concrete is leading us to a new aesthetic of the plan, hitherto unknown" (Towards a New Architecture, Dover Publications, 1986, p63, par 2)

Coming to Banham's book in the 60s, who stated "Behind all aspects of the New Brutalism, in Britain and elsewhere, lies one undisputed architectural fact : the concrete work of Le Corbusier's Unite d'Habitation at Marseilles. And if there is one single verbal formula that has made the concept of Brutalism admissible in most of the world's western languages, it is that Le Corbusier himself described that concrete-work as beton brut"

And later in the same book (p.45), he directly quotes the Smithsons as saying "Our belief that the New Brutalism is the only possible development for the moment from the Modernist Movement, stems not only from the knowledge that Le Corbusier is one of its practitioners (starting with the beton brut of the Unite) but because fundamentally both movements have used as their yardstick Japanese architecture, its underlying idea, principles and spirit".

So we have even Banham and the Smithsons indicating the etymology of Brutalism back to Le Corbusier! But it has become one of the most common conjectures in the history of architecture that the Smithsons and their "New Brutalism" describe a brand new aesthetic style, when in fact all the Smithsons was to coin a term to create their own sub-genre !! Banham places Mies' Illinois Institute of Technology, the Hunstanton School and the Unite D'Habitation in the same canon in his book to describe this "new movement" based an a new set of (quite obscure and indiscernible, if you ask me) socio-ethical principles. So in very basic terms, we have Reyner Banham and the Smithsons around 1955 telling Mies Van Der Rohe and Le Corbusier something along the lines : "You may not know it yet, but your work is so New Brutalism"

So what was that really about? Well Banham would write his essay in 1967, over a decade after circles like the Independent Group and Team X had actively challenged Le Corbusier's CIAM and the Athens Charter as doctrinaire, and sought to clash with his functionalist aesthetics. The Smithsons were not even born when Le Corbusier exalted concrete, but they decided to challenge him in their mid 20s with work like Hunstanton and Sugden House. They clearly coined the term "New Brutalism" with reactionary intention, as a polemic to the Modernist establishment of the time. Hence it is "New" Brutalism and not "Brutalism" , and the terms perhaps should be better appreciated in their own merit. As to why Le Corbusier never used the term Brutalism to describe his architecture, well the answer is simple. The Godfather of Modernism, who steered an entire architectural movement for several decades didn't really participate in the vanity of coining a new sub-genre to describe his architecture exclusively. But this might be something the Smithsons would have been more susceptible to. In hindsight, perhaps it would me more appropriate to link "New Brutalism" with the definitions of Art Brut and Post Modernism, and link "Brutalism" with Modernism 11 west (talk) 16:49, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

The original structure referred to by the term "Nybrutalism" (New Brutalism) was a brick home. Early Brutalist work by the Smithsons was primarily brick, as well. Le Corbusier's work was only associated with Brutalism after the fact by Banham. He did so in his 1955 essay, "The New Brutalism". So it's a neologism to suggest Le Corbusier is the original inspiration or that he coined the term. Not all Brutalist structures are concrete. If you want to argue that all Beton Brut structures are concrete, there would be no debate but not all Brutalist structures are Beton Brut. It's merely one sub-category under the umbrella of Brutalism. It's also worth noting that Beton Brut already has its own page here and that's where the focus on Le Corbusier fits, imo. Jtfolden (talk) 18:04, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jtfolden Surely if we take Banham as basis for arguing the origins of Brutalism, we would need to clarify to a broader audience the context at the time his essay was written, as well as provide accurate quotations from it. I'd be happy to concede only that Banham and the Smithsons popularized (although I prefer hijacked) the term in the UK, but they both clearly allude to Beton-Brut as a key material, and Le Corbusier as their inspiration. This is evident in a number of clearly defined points in Banham's writings (I am preparing a longer essay to support this), and should take precedence in the History section.

Further, the anecdotal story that Banham references to Hans Asplund and his critique of Villa Goth, is highly contentious and should not be read at face value. The key point is that Asplund is referring to the architects of Villa Goth as "New Brutalists" SARCASTICALLY (Banham is clearly referencing this) . The Smithsons, I will argue, also adopt and popularise the term with a heavy dose of sarcasm. This is the architectural world of the 50s rebelling against Le Corbusier and his persistence with steering Modernism towards a beton-brut, high rise Utopia, and of course there's any number of young architects rejecting this playfully through their work : using traditional materials and a more "humane" scale in their designs. Hans Asplund will later move on to reject Corbusian Modernism, criticizing it's shortcomings in his book Farewell to Functionalism (1980). The Smithsons are also known to detract from strict Functionalism, not only through their participation in the counter-Modernist Team X manifesto, but also through their body of work, which is clearly post-modern in ethic and aesthetic. Throughout their career, they believe that they can provide a better solution for post war reconstruction than Le Corbusier's concrete architecture, what with their glass and steel schools or brick and mortar suburban homes. This is their "New" Brutalism you are looking for : the very beginnings of Post-Modernism. And what's more, all of this is referenced in Banham's book - available to anyone who will go on and read more than its cover. It is time for this record to be set straight, and a more in depth analysis of the essay, the themes, and situation at the time will testify with certainty where aesthetic credit should be due. It is about time to take Brutalism home. Soon 11 west (talk) 10:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

History doesn't support your suggestion of hijacking - unless you can come up with ANYONE using the term Brutalism to refer to architecture prior to Asplund and the Smithsons. Actually, if one were to discount Banham you have virtually ZERO connection between Brutalism and Beton Brut (or Art Brut for that matter). Le Corbusier certainly never used it. ...it is Banham that connected Le Corbusier to The Smithsons and their "New Brutalism" AFTER THE FACT. While Asplund was not being "positive" when he used the term, it was indeed the Smithsons, Michael Ventris, and other architects who introduced the term in the UK and to the english speaking world. These facts are WELL cited. It wasn't until 1955 that Banham started expanding the term to cover others projects as it was popularized.

Indeed, if one were inclined to discount Banham entirely then we'd probably have to rely on why the Smithson's claimed to introduce the term (that it was partly used because P. Smithson's nickname was ‘Brutus’) and accept the fact that the they described New Brutalism as an "ethic, not an aesthetic".

Original research and personal essays can't be used as citations on wikipedia. Again, if you have any direct citations showing the term "Brutalism" or "New Brutalism" being used for architecture prior to Asplund and the Smithsons, that would be prior to 1949, I would love to see them. That's the kind of info it would really take to legitimately alter the history section in this page. Jtfolden (talk) 23:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden I have already responded with regard to basic etymology : Both Banham, and The Smithsons are quoting Le Corbusier as the etymological originator of the word, "the owner of this verbal formula" - this I have quoted out of Banham's "The New Brutalism , Reyner Banham, 1967 edition" in my first comment above, please refer to that part for quotations, as it appears that I am the only author that quotes from the original source, rather than secondary sources such as internet magazine articles? It would be presumptious to continue mixing "New Brutalism" and "Brutalism" as if they carry one and the same meaning. "New Brutalism" certainly deserves its own Wikipedia entry, but should be clearly disambiguated from Brutalist Architecture on the basis of the well documented Team X revolt against CIAM of the 50s, a revolt that the Smithsons themselves orchestrated.

It is also documented that Banham and The Smithsons mingled in the Independent Group during the 50s , to construct the new-fangled, avante garde, anti-establishment architectural style "New Brutalism" sought to be, before it found a more solid basis and ultimately absorbed into the wave of Post-Modernism. Recently, there has been a significant semantic change with regards to what can be termed as Brutalist Architecture today - and I find that there is no conflict with what Banham has quoted in his book either. I am referring to urban renewal and architectural proposals that relate to high-rising, monumental scale architecture advocated by CIAM Modernism, with a suggested predominance (although not necessarily, exclusivity) of concrete as the material of choice. All architecture that was influenced by these principles and delivered between 1947 and 1983 can be, and in actual fact is liberally termed Brutalist - although very much of it is rejected by the Smithsons : Here's a video from a 1970 BBC interview where Peter Smithson is imperiously dismisses UK's Brutalist high rises as "clean, sun-drenched boxes with fitted carpets inside and vandalism outside" , possibly in anticipation of his low-rise, "New Brutalist" Robin Hood Gardens. Although he didn't take into account spaces like The Barbican Estate, an perfect example of the very idealised High Modernist estate he rejected. So to summarise, there's no problem I see with this situation in Banham's essay. We're looking at two different styles : perhaps related at source , but eventually conflicting in principle. They simply cannot be seen as the same without properly detailing the narrative of the CIAM/Team X conflict , and this disambiguation needs to be added, as it is indeed the basis of most confusion about what can be seen as "Brutalist" and what not today. It is a matter of scale, ambition and doctrine, in the end, and we certainly can't continue to associate the vertical neighbourhoods, mega-structures and extreme functional zoning advocated by CIAM Modernism with the Picturesque revivalist, counter-Modernist tendencies of the Smithsons, more suitably analysed under another entry for "New Brutalism" and perhaps linked to Post-Modernism. Anything else is paradoxical, and does no favours to those who are looking for a modicum of clarity in this fascinating narrative.11 west (talk) 22:47, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Rather than bringing clarity, that change would be illogical. We already have this existing page to cover Brutalism overall, and another page for Beton Brut. Your suggestion would leave Brutalism fragmented across three pages; The existing Beton Brut page about concrete works, a neutered Brutalist page about concrete works, and a new page about the history and popularization of Brutalism in the UK. As you already admit "It is however quite hard to apportion Brutalism to Le Corbusier as he hasn't been on record using the phrase as far as I'm aware" and have yet to provide citations of him ever doing so, because he hasn't. The term he did use to describe his work was Beton Brut and there exists a page for that. Jtfolden (talk) 01:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden we can certainly merge Beton Brut to Brutalist Architecture - what would be more logical? I am happy for referencing the entire episode of New Brutalism under Brutalist Architecture also, as you have seen I am not excluding it at any degree. It is not hard at all to apportion the etymology of Brutalism to Le Corbusier anymore - I have found the exact quotation at Banham and in the process of following up with mentions about beton-brut as old as 1927-1933 to supplement Banham. It just takes a bit of time to research in French, but in the interim, I believe the original source is sufficient. Why is there a need for consensus when quoting verbatim from original sources? 11 west (talk) 01:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@11 west: First off, please cease the strong arm tactics in an attempt to push your contested edit through. This page has been stable and edited without drama for a very long time. Between your comments on the edits, here, down below, and going out of your way to make derogatory comments about me in the Brutalist group on Facebook recently, it's virtually impossible to assume your edits are in good faith and instead seem to merely be edit warring to control the page and re-write the narrative to fit your personal viewpoint.

The reality is that the responsibility to achieve consensus is on the author who wishes to make the contested edits. That is you in this case since your edit was reverted. It is not appropriate for you to continue strong arming your personal agenda on the page.

Your Banham citation, at best, provides insight into why he associated Beton Brut with Brutalism to begin with but does NOT suffice as an explanation for the origin of the term at all. It was also made well after the fact. Indeed, as of the mid-50s Banham considered the Smithsons Soho house and Hunstanton School to be the reference architectural designs for New Brutalism. That obviously wouldn't be the case if he thought it entirely revolved around Beton Brut.

Also, if you are trying to build the case that Brutalism and The New Brutalism are two entirely different things then that doesn't seem to be supported. Indeed, they are used interchangeably, especially by Banham himself, and have been since introduction in the early 1950's. Again, I would love to see any citations you have, though.

I have asked, numerous times, for even simple citations showing usage of the term Brutalism (New or otherwise) by anyone prior to the Smithsons and you have not provided it. As far as I'm aware Alison Smithsons is the first person to use the term in print, as well.

Mentions of Beton Brut do not count as a mention of Brutalism. One does not automatically mean the other here. Nor would it at all be logical to merge the Beton Brut page with this one. Brutalism, as a whole, covers far more than just Beton Brut structures (such as Art Brut and furniture). Jtfolden (talk) 07:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden I believe you have mistaken my intentions. I have not, and I am not taking the Smithsons, or brick out of the story. Reyner Banham, mentioned a number of etymological (ie beton-brut, Asplunds story, the nickname, Art-Brut), and architectural (Le Corbusier's Unite in Marseilles, Mies Vand Der Rohe's Illinois institute of Chicago) origins for the word. All of these should be mentioned in equal terms in the History section, and I will be quoting reputable literary sources all the way beyond Banham. I will also be adding a photo of Unite, the Illinois institute and Hunstanton in the history section.

Please note, that I haven't edited any previous information out, only added to it. But we need to revise the spurious claim that the "first Brutalist building was made out of brick" that is widely circulating the internet and to which I know you personally subscribe. If we both take Banham as point zero, chronologically it doesn't really stand as all other key buildings he mentions to support his New Brutalism theory, buildings he devotes a much longer part of the essay to, are already in construction. I will use this order of buildings and materials Illinois Institute (1947 to 1956 / steel and glass) Unite D'Habitation (1947 to 1952 / concrete) Hunstanton school (1950-1954 / Glass and Steel) and Villa Goth (1950 / Brick). Would you agree with this pluralistic revision as the basis of future edits ? 11 west (talk) 08:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@11 west going off of your prior comments, I don't think I've been misinterpreting your intentions at all. It is quite clear when you use words like hijack, etc, that your view is not unbiased. I note you also continue to speak of me in a derogatory manner on your talk page while trying to change your tone here. Lots of editors have contributed to this page, not just myself, and the attitude that only you will fix it doesn't really belong.

I left the bulk of your contribution intact in my recent edit but did move it to a more chronologically appropriate spot.

It is not spurious to state that the first structure described as Brutalist was a brick building. Even if you don't like Villa Goth, Banham himself states that Hunstanton School was the first building described as New Brutalist by its own designers.

However, I do NOT take Banham as point zero. Just because he helped popularize the term, it did not originate with him and architects directly involved in Brutalism often disagreed with him.

You have to have more than Banham to base a major change on... Which is why I continue to ask what citations you have, pre-Banham, in regard to the origination of the term Brutalism or New Brutalism. Smithsons by way of Asplund has been the most credible and accepted so far by editors of the page. Other citations could change that but I haven't seen any directly from the period that move it much beyond the Smithsons and related architects. Jtfolden (talk) 09:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden I believe you were the one who set the tone by calling me a "Creationist trying to pick and create facts to support their preconceived notions" when I am merely presenting all facts in their entirety. At any case I will now be creating separate areas for each contested section to make it easier to track changes and the discussion. 11 west (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The phrase "The Smithsons' Hunstanton School completed in 1954 in Norfolk, and the Sugden House completed in 1955 in Watford, represent the earliest examples of Brutalism in the United Kingdom." - I haven't been able to find a source citing anything but "New Brutalism" for Hunstanton and Sugden House. If there is one to be found, please find a way to quote it in parallel with the below citations I provide, that should stand in any case :

- Elaine Harwood on both properties remains within the definition of New Brutalism

- Albert Hill refers to Sugden House as "The First Postmodern Home" here and although I like it, I am not fully prepared for this yet

The transition from "New Brutalism" to just "Brutalism" cannot be assumed arbitrarily, and I notice that many scholars are very carefully using these in different contexts (often alluding to dates and materials). There's also good argument for a semantic differentiation of the word through the years, but for the time being, and for lack of credible sources, I would not suggest to refer to the Smithson's early buildings as anything else but "New Brutalist"

I am gonna be making this small change in this segment, based on Harwood's approach, as she is ideally presenting both buildings in question on that citation. Thanks 11 west (talk) 16:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe you may drawing a conclusion that is not explicitly present in a reliable source. Hardwood explains where the term Brutalism comes from in the beginning and then uses it from that point in the video. New Brutalism and Brutalism have been used interchangeably from very early on. Banham even does it regularly himself. "The New Brutalism" appears to be the full, proper name for the movement while "Brutalism" is a less formal reference. If you have a "good argument for a semantic differentiation" based on reputable sources then perhaps you could start a new suggestion for discussion. The way it's currently heading it may be best to edit the lead in sentence from "Brutalist architecture, or Brutalism..." to "Brutalist architecture, or New Brutalism...". Jtfolden (talk) 17:09, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Also, please research how to properly add and re-use existing citations. You are causing duplicates, or breaking them, within the ref list. Jtfolden (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden : Jumping from "New Brutalism" to "Brutalism" isn't all that simple, neither the wanton connection of a huge body of architecture between the late 40s and the late 60s as originating from the work of the Smithsons. But this is what was attempted by Banham between 1955 and 1967 !! And this is what remains in the root of the confusion today. So there is indeed evidence of an aesthetic leap that had already taken in place at the time with regard to contemporary architecture internationally, and details exist on how The Smithsons and Banham attempted to put their own tag on it. The entire New Brutalist movement was Banham's invention, and based solely on one the review of a single completed building, the Hunstanton School. He retrospectively fuses a wide range of preceding and contemporary architecture, Le Corbusier, Mies, Stirling and Gowan et al, mixes beton brut with art brut, and chiefly the work of Peter and Alison Smithson adding (Brut(us)+Al(ison) to create his narrative of a unique movement that, stemming from that single building, had by 1966 had become a worldwide phenomenon. However, not all of his contemporaries shared this view.

- Banham admits on page 134 in his 1967 book "The reason why I have not reprinted my (1955) article as part of this book, is that I do not believe it to be truly representative of the state of the Brutalist movement at that important time of its evolution. In retrospect, it reveals only too clearly my attempt to father some of my own pet notions on the movement. Any reader who is interested enough to turn it up, should read it "cum grano salis" (with a grain of salt) as a description of the New Brutalism" .

- Gowan and Stirling, whom Banham attempted to associate with the movement (Ham Common Flats/Leicester University) rejected the attempted connection in 1958 "New Brutalism is a journalistic tag applied to some designers of architectural credit, in a morale-boosting attempt to to sanctify a movement as Britains contribution and to cover up for the poor showing of our post-war architecture". Stirling and Gowan, Plucky Jims New Brutalism, The New Statesman, July 26 1958, p116. And later in 1959 they said "New Brutalism, a term which we used to regard on one hand as a narrow interpretation of one aspect of architecture, specifically as the use of materials and components "as found" - an already established attitude ; and on the other hand, as a well-intentioned but over-patriotic attempt to elevate English architecture to an international status. But whatever the term might initially have meant, it is clear from recent and repeated derisive journalistic asides, that it must now have created in the public eye an image of pretentiousness, artiness, and irresponsibility, and as such the continuation of its use can only be detrimental to modern architecture in this country" Stirling and Gowan "Afterthoughts on the flats at Ham Common" Architecture and Building, May 1959, 1967

- Notably with regard to the climate they sought to cultivate, the Smithsons did their own steering by denying James Stirling's contribution in the 1962 Team X meeting at Royaumond "One example is the Smithsons’ strong opposition to the presence of James Stirling. Alison Smithson denied him a part in the Team 10 history simply by omitting any mention of him in her retrospective publication Team 10 Meetings, despite Stirling’s contribution to the Royaumont meeting." here http://www.team10online.org/team10/meetings.html

- In Australia, Robin Boyd argued that many of Banham's contemporary criteria in his 1967 book left out important buildings seemingly belonging to the same canon, such as Paul Rudolphs' work at Yale (1963) and John Andrews' Scarborough college (1964), or buildings in Latin America (ie Oscar Niemeyer's Brasilia in 1960) . "Banham's examples were", he argued "so diverse in style, that one is led finally to the suspicion that the aesthetic of New Brutalism can be found in anything that was built by Alsion and Peter Smithson, or in anything that in Dr Banham's opinion looks as though it might have been" . Boyd describes Banham's book "an oblique view of an episode in the life of the Smithson, an episode that was over the moment they gained larger scale commissions and no longer needed a slogan" Robin Boyd, The Sad End of New Brutalism, Architectural Review 142, July 1967

- I am also suggesting Anthony Vidler's Another Brick in the Wall here https://www.jstor.org/stable/23014873?seq=23#metadata_info_tab_contents . Here Vidler picks apart the New Brutalist narrative step by step, providing a most insightful narrative on the early days of New Brutalism.

So there's contemporary evidence that the aesthetic of New Brutalism was simply borrowed, and not at all newfound. any architects before them and after them were already building in that very same style, and many of them didn't even want to be categorised under the Smithsons and Banham. And this is in the root of why we may have Brutalist Architecture that is not necessarily New Brutalist. All we need is architects that never subscribed to the specific ethic that Banham and the Smithsons promoted, while demonstrating a similar aesthetic (either before or after them) to understand how the semantic leap has been achieved in popular use.

Capital or lower case?

In this article the initial "B", when it is not at the beginning of a sentence, is sometimes set in capital and sometimes in lower case. Which should it be? Michael Hardy (talk) 01:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Capital "B". LoopZilla (talk) 09:38, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

A contradiction

Early in the article this sentence appears."Architects Alison and Peter Smithson are believed to have coined the term "Brutalism" "

Later this appears. The term "Brutalism" was originally coined by the Swedish architect Hans Asplund to describe Villa Göth in Uppsala"71.36.157.252 (talk) 04:47, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I had a look at the sources and it appears that the Smithsons got it from Asplund. So I resolved the contradiction by crediting the Smithsons with introducing it to the English speaking world. Does that seem a reasonable resolution? Possums (talk) 11:42, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

This is hardly the only contradiction when it comes to the origins of the term Brutalism ... please read above the discussion "Brutalism" versus "New Brutalism"11 west (talk) 19:02, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

There is no contradiction. Asplund used the term "Nybrutalism" (New Brutalism) originally. This was introduced to the english speaking world by the Smithsons and Banham. Neither "Brutalism" or "New Brutalism" were used in architectural circles prior. Jtfolden (talk) 17:46, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Both Banham, and The Smithsons are quoting Le Corbusier as the etymological originator of the word, "the owner of this verbal formula" - this I have quoted out of the primary source, Banham's "The New Brutalism , Reyner Banham, 1966 edition", while all other quotations in this part are from secondary sources (articles etc). Consequently, and as derived by their own admission, Le Corbusier is beyond doubt the only one who should be credited with the etymology the word. Banham, Asplund and the Smithsons can be safely credited with coining and popularising a derivative of this etymological formula, namely "New Brutalism" . It is beyond doubt, and eminently evident in Banham's book, that there would have been no "New Brutalism" or indeed any other kind of Brutalism before Le Corbusier advocated beton-brut as the ultimate construction material.

In addition, certain distance has to be placed between the Brutalism of Le Corbusier, and Art Brut, a radical form of avant garde art advocated by Jan Dubuffet. Dubuffet was in the inner circle of the Smithsons, and very influential to the development of their work according to Dirk Van Der Heuvel . An idea here, that the abstract character of Art Brut and its relation to "New Brutalism" could merit further scrutiny. Might Art Brut have ultimately become more important than Le Corbusier beton-Brut for the Smithsons  ? I wouldn't be surprised. For now, I have removed Le Corbusier from that sentence as he is now adequately covered.

I will soon be addressing this by clearly crediting Le Corbusier for the etymology of "Brutalism", and Banham and the Smithsons for popularising and expanding on its derivative "New Brutalism". Asplund/Villa Goth and The Smithsons are now clearly associated specifically with "New Brutalism" remain part of the history section as they should 11 west (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest you not without direct and clear citations, lest the edit be reverted. I have repeatedly asked for direct citations and you have responded with conjecture and original research based around handpicked and misinterpreted quotes. Also, while Banham helped expand and popularize (New) Brutalism, he is a critic and secondary to the architects who introduced New Brutalism themselves - who on many occasions very publicly pushed back against some of his claims. Jtfolden (talk) 00:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden I have cited the original source, verbatim, a number of times, a fact you are ignoring. I will now be starting a dispute resolution process about your arbitrary reversals. 11 west (talk) 01:03, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Bt all means, you are welcome to do so. Original research and personal agendas should not be used as the basis for edits such as that. My revert is not arbitrary and the existing history should remain based on the numerous citations available. Jtfolden (talk) 01:07, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden is Reyner Banham original research? What personal agendas? Is this serious? All current citations in the Brutalist Architecture article are secondary sources, internet articles etc !!! We have a template message testifying to the existence of unsourced or unreliably sourced material, and it appears that currently I am the only one who cites Reyner Banham in the original ? This is the definition of edit warring - I expect you to be banned, hopefully for more than the indicated 24 hours 11 west (talk) 01:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@11 west: please reconsider your methods of interacting with other editors. Dial it back, and treat other editors with respect. If you treat Wikipedia as a battleground and other editors as opponents, you won't make much progress. Acroterion (talk) 02:45, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Lead rewrite

Hi fellow Wikipedians,

As someone not very knowledgable in architecture, I found the lead section very confusing, as it doesn't give a proper definition of Brutalist architecture nor does it highlight some of its defining features. The lead section should start off with the most important facts followed by less important facts. It may be helpful to define modernist architecture too. I would've rewrote it myself, but again, I'm not exactly an expert in this field. Thanks! Ganbaruby (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jtfolden: I attempted a small re-write that functions more as a broad introduction to "what is brutalism" Jtfolden undid my revision, having preferred the prior version. However I agree that the lead needs a re-write as it very quickly jumps into fairly esoteric details. It would be useful to have a more general overview. Perhaps jtfolden would volunteer to do this re-write, or at least discuss what about my edit was lacking? Possums (talk) 09:32, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

@Possums: I initially reverted it, before seeing the alert about re-writing the lead, mainly because it removed the reference to some structures also being made out of brick, steel, etc... Some past edits to the page removed everything but concrete. Given the earliest Brutalist buildings were brick, I think it's important to keep it in the lead. Some of the other info there is duplicated or also referenced in later sections though, and I'll see if I can't merge a bit of it together. Jtfolden (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jtfolden: I've cleaned up the lead. It's now a lot simpler and mostly just refers the content in the body below. I've added a picture of the High Court of Australia, I think its a good example but there could be a better one. All that glitters is (talk) 07:08, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

External links

We don't need external links to personal blogs on Wikipedia. I've removed several links to blog sites which were listed in the External Links section. See WP:EXT external links. Curdigirl (talk) 01:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Criticism and reception

As sharp as The Prince Charles' quote in this section may read (Luftwaffe/Rubble), it is not tied to a Brutalist building at all, but rather to Richard Rogers' 1987 Paternoster Square redevelopment proposal. Neither Richard Rogers as an architect, nor his specific plan for Paternoster Square were Brutalist in spirit or nature, therefore I will be delighted to remove this and transfer it to the Wikipedia article about Post-Modernism (in all honesty, I'm rather inclined to do that with many other parts of this here Brutalist Architecture entry, but one thing at a time). Sadly the original source was easily taken out of context in this case to apply to Brutalist architecture. The source referring the episode in its actual context is here : 11 west (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

History section : Villa Goth photo

It was captioned "Villa Göth (1949) in Kåbo, Uppsala, Sweden. "Brutalism" was used for the first time to describe this house." I have now corrected it to "Villa Göth (1950) in Kåbo, Uppsala, Sweden. "New Brutalism" was used for the first time to describe this house." My source is of course but also its Wikipedia entry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 11 west (talk • contribs)

You may not cite Wikipedia articles in references. Stick to external sources, and remember that you're having a meta discussion on whether Banham originated the term - that requires additional sourcing, not from Banham, but from later scholarship by others. Acroterion (talk) 14:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

History Section : Hans Asplund and "Brutalism"

The following phrase "The term "Brutalism" was coined by the Swedish architect Hans Asplund to describe Villa Göth, a modern brick home in Uppsala, designed in 1949 by his contemporaries Bengt Edman and Lennart Holm.[2] He initially used the Swedish term Nybrutalism (New Brutalism),..." is conjecture and contains inaccuracies for the following reasons

- This is not what is quoted in the cited resource Hans Asplund merely coined the term Nybrutalism with connection to Villa Goth.

- "He initially used..." there's no evidence that he dropped "Ny-" to refer to it as "Brutalism" at any point after "initially" using it. Please provide citations if so

- Villa Goth was built in 1950.. Both Banham and the Wikipedia page for Villa Goth point to that. Specifically Banham mentions that Villa Goth is still being designed in January 1950. I quote in support but also its Wikipedia entry

- I want to draw your attention to this citation too . In it, Elaine Harwood, only refers to the Smithsons' work in Sugden House and Hunstanton as "New Brutalism" at (00:09), but to a concrete high rise (Erno Goldfinger's) Balfron Tower in Poplar as just "Brutalism" (at 03:32). I am leaving it as it is in reference to (00.09) since it is relevant to that part of the history.

Therefore I will be changing the wording in the Hans Asplund Sentence to reflect the above 11 west (talk) 10:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe what was originally meant by "He initially used the Swedish term Nybrutalism" was the fact that his phrase was Swedish, as opposed to later english derivation. There was no suggestion in the text that he dropped "Ny-" himself. However, as noted in Banham's 1966 book (p10), what's important here is that "the originator of the word "Brutalist" seems fairly certainly to have been Hans Asplund." New Brutalism and Brutalism are used interchangeably. Jtfolden (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

History Section : New Brutalism coming to Britain

There's another assumption made here, that isn't cited appropriately. The phrase : "This was picked up in the summer of 1950 [4] by a group of visiting English architects, including Michael Ventris, and Alison and Peter Smithson.[5][2][6]" Alison and Peter Smithson's direct "adoption" from the Asplund term in 1950 doesn't derive from any of the cited sources. Neither I found any evidence that the Smithsons visited Sweden that year. Instead, there's consensus that it was Oliver Cox, Graeme Shankland and Michael Ventris who brought it back to England, where it apparently "spread like wildfire among a certain faction of young English architects" These are the changes I propose

- I rephrase to indicate that it was only Oliver Cox, Graeme Shankland and Michael Ventris who brought it back to the UK, and not the Smithsons

- I have moved Alun's citation temporarily to the next sentence, which is correctly placing Alison Smithson not utilising the term publicly before 1953. (Not a very useful citation, perhaps better suited for the Further Resources section. I am happy for this to be more suitably placed elsewhere or even removed)

- I have left the Guardian citation from Meades which correctly attests to the above

- I have removed the citation from Golan as it doesn't point to the Smithsons importing the term first hand

- I am adding the new citation from VIDLER, ANTHONY. “Another Brick in the Wall.” October, vol. 136, 2011, pp. 105–132. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/23014873 which clearly attests to the fact

- And last Banham relates the same story. Oliver Cox, Graeme Shankland and Michael Ventris, not the Smithsons. 11 west (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you are using the Source or Visual Editor but be careful when removing or editing citations. The Golan link was used somewhere else in the page and was broken somewhere along the way by it's removal. I have fixed it. Jtfolden (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Chronology discussion

It would be very helpful to provide a correct chronology of important events related to Brutalism in the history section, as dates currently go back and forth. This is justified, as contemporary discussions often used the term "New Brutalism" to retrospectively add buildings to the canon. I am oriented towards offering an absolute timeline based an all existing mentioned buildings and episodes currently in the History section, as such :

- 1946 and the Mies Van Der Rohe as the "first completed building to carry the title of New Brutalist"

- 1950 Asplund and Villa Goth, the first recorded use of New Brutalism (Nybrutalism)

- 1952 Le Corbusier Unite D'Habitation and the "verbal formula" story

- 1953 The Smithsons and their (unbuilt) SoHo house story as the first public mention of New Brutalism in the UK

- 1953 Le Corbusier's Chandigarh

- 1954 The Smithsons and Hunstanton School as "the first building completed in the world to be called "New Brutalist" by its architects"

- 1955 Le Corbusier's Ronchamp

- 1955 Sugden House justified as above

- 1955 Reyner Banham's essay to bind the above, and adding the art-brut story (and I would be fine to the Smithsons nickname story around here too as a contemporary truth, although this is not related until 1966)

I believe this would offer to readers a much clearer idea about the gradual shaping of various architectural and art influences into a coherent movement. Any thoughts? 11 west (talk) 11:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This is helpful, but please be aware of Wikipedia's no original research policy - you may not string a series of facts together and draw a conclusion that is not explicitly present in a reliable source. Find scholarship that states a conclusion on the origin of the term, not what Banham or Asplund say, and cite that. There have been many, many words expended on the subject of Brutalism by lots of architectural scholars. You need to look in sources from the 1990s and beyond, not in Banham's books. Banham was undoubtedly influential, but itf the topic is the origination of the term, you need later scholarship that looks at how that came to be. Acroterion (talk) 14:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Additional observations: Please remember that Wikipedia is a tertiary source that summarizes the views of reliable secondary sources. On the subject of whether Banham coined the term (leaving aside whether he popularized the term), Banham himself would be a primary source. Primary sources are to be avoided, or used with great care. Since the subject is about Banham's usage (or Asplund's, or Le Corbusiers's) we need references to scholars who aren't Banham, Asplund or Corbu. Acroterion (talk) 14:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Also, the reference to the IIT in Chicago as the "first completed building to carry the title of New Brutalist" is a misreading of Banham's text. The exact wording on page 17 is "Yet the first completed building to carry the title of 'New Brutalist' was not Corbusian; rather it was the most precise imitation of the building style of Mies Van Der Rohe outside the USA by that time..." The keywords here are "outside the USA". He is referring to Hunstanton and more clearly states this claim again on page 19 of his book. Too, though this edit was incorrect, even if someone decided in 1966 to describe a random building from 1946 as Brutalist, that doesn't mean the first usage of the term suddenly moves back in time. I do not believe a building can be the first to carry a title when the title in question did not even exist yet. This is why, on the topic of origination, that clear and well supported citations are needed to radically alter the history, imo. Jtfolden (talk) 15:05, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@jtfolden I'm fine with that reading and most of your edit. Would you mind adding back the date for Mies' building, though (it's 1946). It is customary to provide a date for every building mentioned, but also contributes to the timeline. We are discussing an artistic, philosophical and architectural continuum that covers a period of time, and not an instant and immaculate conception. The word has an multi-faceted origin, the ethic and aesthetic also have provenance in the past, (and as I will argue elsewhere, specific influence to the future). Thanks 11 west (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

References