Talk:Varna (Hinduism): Difference between revisions
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== What is your problem == |
== What is your problem == |
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What is your problem
Part 1
Joshua Jonathan Look like you didn't read the Sources
This source says Varna can be changed
and this source
says Buddha was Kshtriya
Now what is your problem IndianEditor (talk) 08:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
- Could you please leave out terms like "what the hell"? Your edit added
Vedic Verses doesn't implies Varna being fixed. Varna can be changed anytime. For instance rishi Vishvamitra and Gautam Buddha where both were born in a Kshatriya family but both choose to become to Brahmin.[1][2]
References
- ^ Constance Jones, James D. Ryan (2006). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Infobase Publishing. p. 479.
- ^ Jacob N. Kinnard (2010). The Emergence of Buddhism: Classical Traditions in Contemporary Perspective. Fortress Press. p. 16.
- Jones & Ryan do indeed say that Vishvamitra became a Brahmin. Kinnard does indeed say that the Buddha belonged to the caste "of warriors and kings"; he says nothing about changing varna, nor does he refer to Vedic verses. Saying that the Buddha choose to become a Brahmin is plain bullshit. Concluding that Varna wasn't fixed, based on these two references, is pure WP:OR. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:04, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Joshua Jonathan And could you please leave out terms like "bullshit"
Now as Buddha is Concerned No doubt he was born in Kshatriya Family Now definition of Brahmin is (Check the first line of this Page) Brahmin And Gautam Buddha is Brahmin as per the definition So you can't deny that Buddha is not Brahmin IndianEditor (talk) 09:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
- He didn't "deny" anything. He told you it's original research, which isn't allowed here. If you think the idea that Varna isn't (or wasn't) fixed belongs in the article, find reliable sources that say so. PepperBeast (talk) 21:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Part 2
*** Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Varna ***
You removed [1] this
The sources are totally perfect and now if you you think my grammar isn't good please add that in your own wording. GhostProducer (talk)18:47, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
How is this Original Research??? . I am not saying Varna can be changed Sources are saying.Then how is this Original Research GhostProducer (talk) 19:45, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
??? No reply Should I add it back??? GhostProducer (talk) 14:16, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
- You can comment at Talk:Varna (Hinduism)#What is your problem. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:22, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
*** End of copied part ***
What I removed was preceded by this text:
The earliest application to the formal division into four social classes (without using the term varna) appears in the late Rigvedic Purusha Sukta (RV 10.90.11–12), which has the Brahman, Rajanya (instead of Kshatriya), Vaishya and Shudra classes forming the mouth, arms, thighs and feet at the sacrifice of the primordial Purusha, respectively:
11. When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaishya, from his feet the Shudra was produced.
This is what I removed, which was placed after the text above:
But nothing in this Vedic Verse implies Varna being fixed. Varna can be altered anytime. For instance Rishi Vishvamitra was born in a Kshatriya family but choose to become to Brahmin.[1]
References
- ^ Constance Jones, James D. Ryan (2006). Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Infobase Publishing. p. 479.
The source says (I have limited access):
It is well-known, for instance, that the rishi (seer) Vishvamitri, though born a warrior, became a Brahmin.
Does this source refer to this verse? The sentence "Varna can be altered anytime" is a WP:REDFLAG. A story about a legendary figure changing varna is not enough to validate such a claim. And taken together, this is pure WP:OR.
Mind: maybe the original varna-system wasn't that fixed. Pankaj Jain, Associate Professor of Indic Studies (2011), The Caste System of Hindu Society], Huffington Post:
The original varna system was quite flexible in which one’s varna could be changed based on one’s skill and was not fixed as is often understood.
But then, that's Huffington Post. And still different from "Varna can be altered anytime" (present tence). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:41, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Focus
This article has lost its focus. Look at the title and then at the content - Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism etc are irrelevant. Further, we have pages redirecting to it which refer to concepts which should be noted but are not, eg: varnashramadharma.
The article seems to have changed a lot during a period when I wasn't editing much. It isn't all for the good. - Sitush (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Hm. I suppose one solution would be to rename it as Varna (religion)? We would probably have to rework the lead section. - Sitush (talk) 10:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Sikh texts
SimranSidhu, there is no point in reinstating content without addressing the the objection. You need to use SECONDARY sources and summarise what they say (not quote them). And PRIMARY sources should only be quoted as examples, but only if the SECONDARY sources do so. Since the Sikh texts are not promoting varna, there is no need to quote them at all. Perhaps Ms Sarah Welch can help you work out a reasonable content. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Kautilya3, apologies if I am shaky on the rules. I'm not the most experienced Wiki contributor and am still learning how to give quality contributions.
Are you suggesting that I paraphrase the writings of Patwant Singh and follow them with a citation? If so, I am more than happy to do that.
Regarding citations from the Guru Granth Sahib itself, I think if there is a section titled "Varna in Sikh Texts" the first "Sikh text" that ought to be cited is the Guru Granth Sahib itself. Beyond that, Patwant Singh is a Sikh writer of repute.
The idea that Eleanor Nesbitt's is the only "Sikh text" quoted to explain Sikhism's position on caste/varna seems an oddity, especially when there appears to be an issue quoting Sikh scripture directly.
Again, please bear with any mistakes or misunderstandings on my part. I assure you that I am doing my best. SimranSidhu (talk) 15:36, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, my revert was based on the format. I don't have all that much to say about the content itself, except that, when writing about religion, it is best not to cite the insiders. They will generally tend to present their religion in the best light and won't be critical about it. Other editors more knowledgeable about the Sikh literature might have comments on whether Patwant Singh is acceptable or not. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:06, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- @SimranSidhu: Primary sources should be avoided here, for reasons @Kautilya3 explains. Patwant Singh is a Sikh writer, but per WP:NPOV and WP:Fringe, we must avoid sources that do not reflect peer-reviewed mainstream scholarship. Wikipedia articles attempt to cover a subject as an encyclopedic reference source, not an advocacy nor every interesting or unusual idea/opinion/interpretation. Prof. Nesbitt's publication by Oxford University Press is a fine source and meets wikipedia's quality and other guidelines. I made a quick check into Nesbitt and the section looks fine, though I would reword a few things in there and add a few more scholarly sources. This a high level article on varna, and that should the focus here. Kautilya3/others: should the article be retitled to Varna (Indian religions) rather than Varna (Hinduism)? It can't be Varna, as that is a seaside city in Bulgaria. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks Sarah. I think that, for balance, we need do something like what this encyclopedia does. The Sikh texts don't condone caste distinctions, but in practice it still happens. (I think the term caste in this article is basically used in the same sense as varna.)
- I am fine with Varna (Hinduism). Hinduism is the mother of the concept, even if the other religions borrow it in bits. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:55, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kautilya3: Indeed, the 3rd and 4th para of page 42 in the Singha source in particular. Please summarize it in. Another good scholarly source with a historical summary of varna in Sikhism is by Prof. Oberoi. See pages 105-108 in particular along with the footnotes. History has been complicated, as it often is!, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC) (I can email me you scans of those pages, if you do not have them handy) Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Kautilya3: I have updated the Sikhism section. Please review and revise to improve it further. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:52, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
VarnAshrama Dharma includes both Varna Dharma and Ashrama Dharma
VarnAshrama Dharma is leading to this page which includes only Varna and not Ashrama posted at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashrama_(stage) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.78.165.224 (talk) 18:07, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sooo... what do you want to change? PepperBeast (talk) 22:59, 28 June 2019 (UTC)