Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic Supply shooting

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is a clear absence of consensus for deletion of this article, and reasonable policy-based arguments that national coverage reaches the level necessary to support inclusion. bd2412 T 02:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Catholic Supply shooting

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Catholic Supply shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Ugh. As much as I hate doing this, it doesn't appear to be a significant event that has received wide-spread coverage or even in depth coverage. Mostly just local/state wide and a brief mention on CNN but not much more than what i'd expect to see in a scroller. Praxidicae (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Missouri-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 20:04, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
• Delete This is a 'one-note and follow the trial' story only notable to KMOX radio and St. Louis television, not to the rest of the country. NOTNEWS. Nate • (chatter) 00:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Change to Keep I thought at first this would be indeed just a local news story, but now that we know the suspect was a former pastor for a church with a very complicated history, this isn't going to stay just in St. Louis (and if not for 45/politics monopolizing the news channels, this would easily be their #1 story for the week if we were in a place where politics were boring). There's more to this story, and the first day Ctrl+C of the AP wire about this has changed considerably to plenty of sustained and diverse coverage, and now doesn't meet WP:109PAPERS. I wouldn't usually change my mind on a story like this in the days we have a nom up, but this will be covered for months, even if it has the usual week-after decline between hearings and trial (the article thus does need an update now that a suspect has been located and detained). Nate • (chatter) 05:57, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:RAPID. At present we have wide non-local coverage - e.g. TIME (via AP wire), aciprensa (Spanish), Chicago Tribune. As we can not evaluate future coverage or lasting effects, and present coverage is SIGCOV (with the exception of SUSTAINED which we can't evaluate due to the event being recent) we should err towards keeping the article, per RAPID, until we can evaluate this at a future date.Icewhiz (talk) 06:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• Delete along with Mercy Hospital shooting and Jeffersontown Kroger shooting. Every shooting where 2 or 3 people are killed should not have a Wikipedia article. This is getting a little ridiculous, plus most experts define a mass shooting as at least four killed. BubbleWobble (talk) 12:20, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment We're not removing a hospital shooting or a defined hate crime. This is why we don't have mass nominations for these, so they're talked about on their own merits. Nate • (chatter) 17:34, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep All events of this nature will continue to receive references. DGG ( talk ) 02:37, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep needs expansion. Coverage meets WP:NCRIME.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep - coverage meets WP:NCRIME. Plenty of good sources.BabbaQ (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I have undone my previous close per discussion on my talk page. Relisting instead so that a clearer consensus can emerge.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 13:34, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Delete Per WP:NOTNEWS, which is a policy. RAPID is misguided, it should be the other way around (cf. WP:DELEY): Do NOT create an article too soon, because there is no deadline. If an event that originally appears to be minor (and shootings with only a few people killed are regrettably quite routine) later turns out to get sustained widespread coverage and/or can be shown to have an impact beyond the initial event, then the moment has come to create an article. Application of RAPID just results in keeping something on the thought that it can always be deleted if it turns out never to become notable (which is the world on its head), but in practice this just means that it gets forgotten and lingers in limbo without anyone editing or even reading it. Anyway, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a newspaper and the tendency of some editors to jump upon everything currently in the news to create articles about what may be ephemeral events is quite regrettable... --Randykitty (talk) 13:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Delete mostly per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:SENSATIONAL/WP:NCRIME/WP:ROUTINE. 15,000 or so people get killed by guns every year in the US. There is no long term significance to this shooting over the other 14,999. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• No one above argues that all murders are notable, but the facts of this case have made the coverage extraordinary. And we are here to guage whether WP:RSes deem a crime notable, not whether we personally think it is.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• I don't see that covered in any of the sources. He's a pastor of a non-standard church, and a gun rights guy, and was in debt. The article is a WP:COATRACK of random facts. There will be routine coverage until they find the guy, routine coverage when they find him, routine coverage at trial if he's not shot dead by then, and in the meantime he'll be used as a routine example of what's wrong with gun culture by a handful of columnists/bloggers on the left, an excuse to buy more guns on the right, blah blah blah, and no one will remember him 3 weeks from then because the new cycle will have moved on. This is all routine stuff. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• They found him (detailed coverage of intense 2-day manhunt, tip that helped police identify and locate him.) Judge has denied bail. Discussion in St. Louis at present is about whether Wesley Bell, an anti-death penalty politician who was just elected county prosecutor will seek the death penalty in this case.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:08, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• • today's round of national coverage is about the meticulous police work that went into identifying perp. Many newspapers picked up the AP story, the New York Post ran a reported story.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• WP:HEY - additional notability can come from unexpected angles. In this case, the regional media are giving intense coverage to the question of whether a newly elected, Democratic Party, county prosecutor who won in a dramatic upset victory (part of this year's Blue Wave,) and opposes the death penalty, Wesley Bell (attorney), will ask for the death penalty for the killer.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:41, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep but needs extensive work, and expansion. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:20, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Keep - per above like-minded !votes, article needs expansion, easily passes WP:GNG. Inter&anthro (talk) 22:20, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
• Note that coverage is ongoing. Formal charges laid in court: murder first degree; sodomy. The Archbishop led a prayer service at the store where murder happened, blessed the store, which reopened today.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:00, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

• and now this: Investigators pursuing Catholic Supply suspect’s possible link to other crimes. There had already been storie like Police: St. Louis and Delphi Cases Have Some Similarities; St. Louis PD contacted Delphi police after the Catholic Supply Store shooting and rapes. relates to Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

• Delete. WP:MILL violent crime; sensationalist routine reporting does not change this (WP:NOTNEWS). Recreate if still written about 5 years from now. Sandstein 20:10, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• Delete — Wikipedia is not a newspaper—a fundamental policy of an encyclopedia—and this is just current (unfortunate) news; we argue about charges, a trial, and later a possible conviction but those are all routine to a news cycle of a crime. With that understood, coverage cannot be said to be sustained at this time and the same can be said for an obvious lack of lasting impact. Notability simply cannot be established when so much is determined on what may be written about this crime. I suggest deletion, per policy, and to slow our roll on breaking news stories.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.