Talk:Bakarkhani

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Recipes

Where are recipes Singh4455 (talk) 16:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a cookbook, so there shouldn't be any recipes in the article. Recipes can be posted to the Wikimeda Cookbook. Ibadibam (talk) 16:43, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Unsourced POV pushing by Gotitbro

User:Gotitbro has been repeatedly reverting edits to restore his own preferred version that replaces "Bangladesh" with "India" throughout the article and has been removing reliable sources from Banglapedia by calling them unreliable. He has not provided a single source for his edits but pushing his POV repeatedly despite being explained in the edit summaries. Za-ari-masen (talk) 04:02, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-masen: Your problematic edits that conflate Bengal with Bangladesh have already been reverted by multiple editors including admins. To claim the exact thing your are doing and projecting that onto me highly is ridiculous. I don't need to provide source to revert clear POV which you are looking to brute force by engaging in highly disruptive editing on multiple articles. Gotitbro (talk) 04:31, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Gotitbro, not only you have been discarding the reliable sources in the article but also rejecting the importance of providing a source for your edits, that in itself reflects your disruptive behaviour. You have been involved in a similar unsourced POV pushing in different articles with multiple users and have been doing so for a while now. I don't know where I have been warned by an admin as you are talking about, but I think it's high time an admin decision is imposed on you. Za-ari-masen (talk) 04:41, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@Za-ari-mase: Not sure where you are coming with your ridiculous allegations, all of which pretty seriously apply to yourself. Your similar edits were revrted on Shorshe Ilish by an admin who had already explained on the Talk page the dispute (nowhere do I say you were warned by an admin). If you are so smug about having me "done under" for my edits go ahead and report me, you probably won't come unscathed for you edits. Also you coatraking users more disposed to your edits is simply not done, you clearly do not want to engage in any discussion but brute force edits that cater to your liking. Gotitbro (talk) 04:50, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

You have just been blocked for your edit-warring in this article. Please quit this battleground attitude and make constructive edits when you return. Za-ari-masen (talk) 04:58, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Banglapedia is used in majority of Bangladesh-related articles and even has a Template:Cite Banglapedia on Wikipedia. Bakarkhani originates from Eastern Bengal e.g. modern day Bangladesh, not India. I agree with Za-ari-masen and think that Gotitbro needs to stop edit-warring. UserNumber (talk) 13:54, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

@Utcursch, El C, Huon, and Gotitbro: I just carefully reread the Banglapedia article again; nowhere does it say the origin is in Dhaka or present-day Bangladesh/East Bengal. Here is the link to the article, the first paragraph clearly states the following: "a food-product peculiar to Dhaka city... original home of this bread or biscuit is Afghanistan or beyond". Nowhere does it say the origin is Dhaka or Bangladesh/East Bengal. Also, the Times of India article, which Za-ari-masen removed from his version, states, the following: "There are a few new variants of the bakarkhani though, that trace their origin to Bangladesh and Kashmir. As you can observe, there is zero source for the sole claim of Dhaka or Bangladesh/East Bengal. What we know is, it is a dish inspired by Central Asian Muslim migrants to medieval India, just like General Tso's chicken is inspired by Chinese migrants to North America. The version that @Gotitbro: reverted is the best version. (This also shows the problematic edits of Za-ari-masen, they use words like "preferred", "favorite" or "peculiar" and constructs it as origin to Dhaka or Bangladesh. As can be seen with chomchom, the Banglapedia there only stated it was a favorite in Tangail, to use that as a statement to claim origin, thankfully @Utcursch: caught that.) As you can see, Za-ari-masen is falsifying the sources. Please read the Banglapedia source on Bakorkhani and Times of India article on Bakorkhani and be the judge yourself. (96.240.28.30 (talk) 18:44, 10 February 2020 (UTC))

What do you think "peculiar" means? Did you take a look at other sources in the article, Muntasir Mamun (July 2006). Dhaka Smriti-Bismritir Nogori; Nazir Hussain (April 1995). Kingbodontir Dhaka and others? Did you even have any glance over the history section of the article? Za-ari-masen (talk) 09:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

They said it was once peculiar as in hundreds of years ago when it first arrived. The term "Bakarkhani" originates from Eastern Bengal and was not used in Central Asia.UserNumber (talk) 13:18, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

"peculiar" means odd or curious, not origin. If they meant origin, they would have said it. Your entire argument was based on Banglapedia article, now it is falling apart. Now trying to dodge with some obscure names without any link or a direct quote like I did is being disingenuous. @Utcursch, El C, Huon, and Gotitbro: please see what they are doing, kindly intervene as admins. (96.240.28.30 (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2020 (UTC))

The Bakarkhani word is Bengali not in a Central Asian language. The main argument here is whether it is Indian or Bangladeshi and it is very clear Old Dhaka and the other regions mentioned in the article are part of Eastern Bengal which is Bangladesh (apart from Kashmir which is of course Pakistani not Bangladeshi). @User:Alivardi, what do you think? UserNumber (talk) 14:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion seems to be getting pretty intense and I think it's worth reminding that we should keep things civil here. I also have to disagree with the idea that Banglapedia is not rs; the articles are written by academics and it's partially funded by UNESCO. While the Banglapedia article does state that the dish originated in Afghanistan etc., I don't believe anything beyond a cursory mention of is necessary, with the "History" section being the most appropriate place in my opinion. Bakarkhani's South Asian association and name warrants that that aspect be the focus of the lead. Also note that as per Merriam-Webster, peculiar can be defined as "characteristic of only one person, group, or thing : DISTINCTIVE".[1]
Alivardi (talk) 16:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

See also our sister project's definition: "Common or usual for a certain place or circumstance; specific or particular." To say that something is "peculiar to Dhaka" means it would have a strong association with Dhaka, and might usually be found only there. Ibadibam (talk) 22:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

By that definition, it is even less of a valid statement to say the origin is solely from Dhaka. Per the sources, the name of the dish comes from the adopted son of the Nawab of Bengal, Murshid Quli Khan, the family ruled from Murshidabad in West Bengal, India. Plus, per the sources above, there are three major variants, Kashmiri (India/Pakistan administered), Awadi (India) and Bengali (India and Bangladesh) (Also, as a Sylheti, I was shocked none of these sources mentioned the Indian Sylheti version, which is eaten by most on a regular basis in the Barak Valley; we Sylhetis are so proud of our Syhleti version, we have a myth, in which we think our homeland, Barak Valley is named after this dish. Again, most likely a myth.) I agree with Alivardi, this is a dish from the subcontinent -- state the various versions like Kashmiri, Awadi and Bengali in the lead, and put the various origin story in the history section. The truth is, so many versions exist of this dish, and with few sources, it is like the Balkan wars over Ćevapi, with very few sources. (But, keeping my fingers crossed someone will find a source for the Sylheti version from Barak valley.) I will leave this to other experienced users to discuss further for the next few days. Thank you all! 96.240.28.30 (talk) 23:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I am Sylheti as well and I did come across a source which vaguely mentioned its origin there and I added to the end of the history section as well. However, most sources say that its origin is in Eastern Bengal, specifically Dhaka, and spread to other parts of the Indian subcontinent (Sylhet, Awadh, Kashmir). Of course if we find the other theories we can put them there but for now we should stick to Dhaka as that currently has the most sources. Murshidabad has nothing to with this; the adopted son was working in Eastern Bengal and Murshidabadis and West Bengalis don't even claim it themselves.UserNumber (talk) 11:30, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Update: I found some sources will add more information later on.UserNumber (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

@El C: Za-ari-masen is continuing WP:EW on this page after coming off from a block without gaining consensus first. NavjotSR (talk) 15:43, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2020

2001:16A2:514C:DB41:BC1A:6528:6805:A135 (talk) 14:26, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

i need to remove one Category

Which category do you want to remove and why? RudolfRed (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:31, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

We have a consensus here

Please don't replace "Bangladesh" with Indian subcontinent as the origin place without any discussion. We have already reached a consensus that the bread originated in Bangladesh according to the reliable sources. Za-ari-masen (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

 Administrator note if it really does prove there's consensus for your changes, Za-ari-masen, I will supplant the second partial block (which still allows you to edit this article talk page, by the way) which I just applied to your account with a strong warning against further edit warring. It does seem as if the onus is on you to demonstrate that consensus has been actually achieved, though. El_C 15:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

• Even though it didn't existed before 1971 but this bread did? Makes no sense. NavjotSR (talk) 16:01, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, please take a look at the thread above, Talk:Bakarkhani#Unsourced_POV_pushing_by_Gotitbro. Also, if you remember, I did predict in your talkpage that IPs and accounts with few edits would appear to reinstate the unsourced version and this is exactly what is happening. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I'd rather you prove it to me here, in this thread — which you are so far failing to do. El_C 16:09, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

pinging @UserNumber: who was the neutral participant in the dispute. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:09, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, this was the last comment of the thread after which UserNumber edited the article based on the consensus and none of the participants objected. That essentially makes it a consensus.Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Za-ari-masen, fair enough. Now I just need you to demonstrate you understand how what vandalism is not applies to this dispute, after which you could be unblocked. Also, NavjotSR has concerns, which I would like you to address, as well. El_C 16:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C: This was acceptable, what Username put, but Za-ari-masen went on replacing with Bangladesh here. Also, the sources listed state Sylhet region as an origin. Which is divided between both India and Bangladesh. Which Za-ari-masen also excluded, and removed the source. 2600:1001:B02E:E15C:61CE:670E:BF59:56F7 (talk) 16:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, I fully understand what constitutes vandalism, if you still believe I'm incompetent about the policies I will again make thorough reads on those pages. What happened here is, IPs from the ISP are making the same unsourced POV edits even after discussions that made me feel like they were disruptive and not good faith edits. Perhaps, I was wrong. For NavjotSR, I would refer to the source from Banglapedia. If there is any confusion over interpretation of the source, I would refer to the discussion in the thread mentioned above. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

You do not fully understand it if you label this content dispute "obvious vandalism" — what is obvious to me, is that it is not obvious. As for NavjotSR, I would rather you two had a more substantive conversation. Please stop referring us to the lengthy thread above per se. — that is unhelpful. Summarize what you need to and/or point to specific diffs from that thread. I need more pointed, detailed and better-documented responses from you, overall. El_C 16:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Again, Banglapedia does not confirm the origin. It states the popularity, the other sources three sources mentions Sylhet region and Kashmir; Sylhet is divided between India and Bangladesh and Kashmir between India and Pakistan. 2600:1001:B02E:E15C:61CE:670E:BF59:56F7 (talk) 16:38, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

References

Did you even take a look at those Bengali sources? All of them are actually stating Bakarkhani is a dish from Old Dhaka complete opposite of what you are arguing. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Old Dhaka and Sylhet region. It was created by Sylhetis, that is clear in the Bengali sources. Sylhet and Sylhetis are equally divided between India and Bangladesh. Plus, timesofindia states both Kashmir and Bengal. You are replacing with Bangladesh only, that is not true. We all agreed above. 2600:1001:B02E:E15C:61CE:670E:BF59:56F7 (talk) 16:45, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

The articles state that Bakarkhani is made and found in Old Dhaka and people who came from Sylhet District are involved in making the bread. The Sylhet District itself refer to the present-day Sylhet Division of Bangladesh, Sylhet region is a different thing. In any case, please refer to this post by UserNumber who himself first mentioned about Sylhet in this article. He states himself that only few sources mention Sylhet but Bakarkhani is widely regarded as dish from Old Dhaka. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, I already said that I was wrong in labeling them as "obvious vandalism", apologies if I couldn't make myself clear. As for the interpretation, please take a look at the posts by Ibadibam and Alivardi who were both uninvolved editors. Za-ari-masen (talk) 16:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I am not here to evaluate the content. If you reach an impasse with normal talk page discussion, you might benefit from codifying the consensus through a dispute resolution request such as a Request for Comment. While the discussion takes its course, the status quo ante version is the version that should be displayed. I'm just not sure which it is at this time. El_C 17:02, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, You said "fair enough", I thought you agreed that there was indeed a consensus. Also, shouldn't this edit made by UserNumber after the discussion as an uninvolved editor be the status quo? And am I eligible to get unblocked after explaining my position? Za-ari-masen (talk) 17:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not unblocking you just so you revert again. I said "fair enough," but that did not mean all conditions were met. The status quo ante version would be the version before this entire dispute started, not just this latest iteration of it. El_C 17:12, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

@El C:, could you please tell me what else should be done to meet the conditions? Do I need to explain anything specific? Za-ari-masen (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

On further consideration, I would rather see the discussion progressing further a bit before allowing either you or the IP the ability to edit the article, so as to avoid further edit warring on the part of either one of you. El_C 18:06, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I have made a mistake. I was incorrect to state Greater Sylhet as the source which I referenced talks about Sylhet District in particular (which previously included the Moulvibazar District and parts of Habiganj District and Sunamganj District, now known as Sylhet Division) and not the greater region (known as Greater Sylhet) surrounding it, and so this shows that Bakarkhani is very much a Bangladeshi origin bread and not Indian. There is not a single piece of evidence to show that its origins lie in modern-day India.UserNumber (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

RfC about the infobox

Should the "place of origin" (country) in the infobox be Bangladesh? Za-ari-masen (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Survey

• Yes: All the reliable sources state that Bakarkhani is a delicacy from Old Dhaka. The most authenticate academic source would be this from Banglapedia which states, "Bakorkhani is a traditional bakery product dating back to Mughal times. Until very recently, it was a food-product peculiar to Dhaka city. Among the food items of Mughal times this has lingered to date and now it is also found in other cities of Bangladesh." Then there are other academic sources, Muntasir Mamun (July 2006). Dhaka Smriti-Bismritir Nogori; and Nazir Hussain (April 1995). Kingbodontir Dhaka which again refer Old Dhaka as the origin of the bread. There are some newspaper articles which mentions that people from "Sylhet district" (which refers to the present day Sylhet Division of Bangladesh) are involved in making the bread. In any case, the country of origin is very precisely be concluded as "Bangladesh" based on these reliable sources. The opponents of this proposal argue that Kashmir is also considered a place of origin of this bread referring to this source which is a mere review piece of a news outlet and not an academic source. However, what the source actually states is that only a variant of the bread was created in Kashmir, not the bread itself. Considering these facts, I'm proposing the place of origin in the infobox be changed to "Bangladesh", as it had always been till the dispute started. Za-ari-masen (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes I am with Za-ari-masen on this. Idealigic (talk) 21:01, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
• Yes: I also agree with the above, almost every reliable source on this states that it is a part of Bangladeshi culinary traditions.UserNumber (talk) 12:43, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
• No It does not matter what your unverifiable source say as long as you have no evidence. See what this reliable source say: "Historical accounts have suggested that bakarkhani belongs to the Mughlai cuisine of the Indian subcontinent and is believed that this Mughlai bread has been originated from the Central Asia and arrived to the Indian subcontinent as part of Mughal dynasty." Ethnic Fermented Foods and Beverages of India: Science History and Culture, Springer, p. 238. I don't see any mention of "Bangladesh". Bangladesh was not even created before 1971. NavjotSR (talk) 12:55, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you meant by "what your unverifiable source say as long as you have no evidence". If you have doubts about offline sources, please refer to WP:OFFLINE. Also, the description about Bakarkhani in the source you presented appears to be suspiciously similar to the earlier versions of this Wikipedia article. I'm not sure how reliable the source is because a number of books, news articles and other sources have been seen recirculating Wikipedia content which couldn't be considered WP:RS. Za-ari-masen (talk) 19:32, 12 March 2020 (UTC)