Talk:Zeno of Citium

Cynicism

I think that writing Stoicism was based on Cynicism is a bit misleading as a statement on it's own, without even hinting that there were nuances to how those philosophies developed, and what their relationship to each other is. I think this can end up in confusion for people with only surface-level knowledge which I suspect most looking at this page will have.

I tried to think of how to explain this succinctly and the best explanation I can come up with is that:

Stoics are students of Zeno and eventually his students. This is supported at least by Diogenes Laertius in The Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers

Cynics were labeled as Cynics, usually by others. As far as I know, it's not entirely clear who was first called a cynic. It also is not clear whether it was used as a derogatory term or not: The ancient greek word for Cynic meant 'dog-like.'

Both groups share similar maxims about things like "Living in accordance with nature," but it seems they understood their shared ideas very differently

I don't have good, sourced sentences to fix this though, and I'm curious what others think.

Xenogis (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Sources

The issue I've come across though in improving the page is finding good sources to cite, I'd imagine many others have had similar issues. I've been studying Stoic philosophy for a while, and I've had a hell of a time finding a lot of writings. I've definitely read more of Stoics, than direct translation or copy of what they said/wrote. I would think for someone said to be celebrated and prolific like Zeno of Citium, that more would have survived. Maybe it's out there, but just more esoteric than I realized. Xenogis (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

(Question)

What the heck does the below sentence actually mean? "Having been companionable, the king, Antigonos of Macedonia, often abided by him." Is "companionable" even a word?

companionable |kəmˌpønjənəbəl|
adjective
(of a person) friendly and sociable : a companionable young man.
 • (of a shared situation) relaxed and pleasant : they walked in companionable silence.
New Oxford American Dictionary

Overall, I do have to agree. Some sentences read like a 60-year-old philosophy textbook. There are no refereneces at this time. How can that be? Is this page a "lift" from something copyrighted? I'll put this on my to-do list. Wikipedia can at least get the underpinnings of the Western World cited correctly!

--Charles Gaudette 21:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Anarchist

I have removed the nonsense piece about Zeno being the first anarchist. WolfgangRieger 18:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Dennis Dalton, in the teaching company lecture "Power over People: Classical and Modern Political Theory," cites Zeno as an early anarchist.

Furthermore, according to Kropotkin, Zeno was "the best exponent of Anarchist philosophy in ancient Greece". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.101.118 (talk • contribs)

If you've got the references, then make the edit. Zeno Izen 16:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

update

Folks, Zeno seems to be very influential, and this page is IMHO a disservice. I want to update this with a lot of meat (so to speak), and also want your opinion, additions, whatnot. Thanks and best, Mu5ti 14:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Zeno

Zeno was born in Citium on the Island of Cyprus. Originally he was a merchant, but he shipwreaked in Athens and stayed there to study philosohpies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.243.206 (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Physics - Logic - Ethics

The article states: "Following the ideas of the Academics, Zeno divided philosophy into three parts". Other than Aristotle's Topics (I.14), is there any basis for crediting this division to the Academics generally? And if the sole source was the Topics, should this not be explicitly stated? hgilbert (talk) 13:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

There is some evidence that the three-fold division may have originated among the Academics, but it's based on second-hand testimony by later classical authors. Several ancient sources claim that Plato invented (or anticipated) the three-fold division (eg. Cicero, Acad. i. 5, 19; Apuleius, De Platone, i. 3), although the claim is considered rather dubious. Cicero, in another passage (De Finibus, iv. 2, 3-4) says that Speusippus, Aristotle, Xenocrates, Polemon, and Theophrastus all anticipated the Stoics' three-fold division. Sextus Empiricus (Adv. Math. vii. 16) says that Plato pioneered the division but it was "Xenocrates and the Peripatetics who explicitly adopted the division". Concerning this passage, The Cambridge History of Hellenistic Philosophy (page xiv) says:

most scholars are content to ascribe the formal origin of the division to Xenocrates. The Peripatetics acknowledge a three-fold division, but not a literal tripartition; for they preferred to split philosophy itself into two parts, theoretical and practical (which corresponded roughly to physics and ethics), and to deem logic to be not a part but a tool or instrument of philosophy

Pasicles (talk) 19:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. hgilbert (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Zeno's pantheism

I undid the edits by User:68.40.73.26 on 27 April 2012, because he/she claimed the source used (Diogenes Laertius) doesn't say that the universe is god but rather "nature is god's will manifested, a divine decree". But in fact Diogenes Laërtius, vii. 148 says:

The substance of God, Zeno says, is the entire cosmos and the heaven.

There is a question over whether this slightly ambiguous statement equates to full-on pantheism, but a debate on this needs to reference scholarly sources on the matter. Pasicles (talk) 20:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Phoenician descent

Hi, amended the sentence as per Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Thank you 23x2 _φ 10:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The quote from Diogenes anecdote "Lives of Eminent Philosophers" of Crates saying to Zeno "Why run away, my little Phoenician?", can not be used as a source to come to a conclusion that Zeno was Phoenician. It is original research because Diogenes does not make that statement. Diogenes does not say "Zeno was Phoenician" 23x2 _φ 10:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Death

Currently it stands on the article that Zeno died of "self-suffocation," implying that he held his breath until he died. Ignoring the fact that this is simply impossible (you pass out and start breathing before death can occur), according to The Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers: Book VII: The Stoics" by the cited author Diogenes Laërtius as published on the Fordham University's portal called "Ancient History Sourcebook", Zeno "immediately...strangled himself." Source.

See the source for more information. I believe it is more accurate to say that Zeno strangled himself to death, not suffocated himself to death.

Hi JesseKramme. I should have made my explanation clearer, and that's my mistake. The translation of Diogenes Laërtius used on the Fordham website is that made by Charles Duke Yonge in 1853. In checking the information I used the translation by Robert Drew Hicks, 1925, for the Loeb Classical Library ([1]). The specific Greek text here at book vii. 28 is: "παραχρῆμα ἐτελεύτησεν, ἀποπνίξας ἑαυτόν" which translates (roughly) as "forthwith died, choked/suffocated himself". The problem here is how one translates ἀποπνίξας (apopnicas) which derives from ἀποπνίγω (apopnigo). He somehow choked himself or suffocated himself. It is of course impossible to die from holding your breath, but the story of self-suffocation was also told in antiquity about Diogenes of Sinope. There is actually a symbolism in the story in that as a philosopher he calmly and serenely just simply chose the right moment to die, and simply stopped his own life, (no matter that it's impossible to die from holding your breath or indeed from just strangling yourself). In modifying your edit - and I should have made this clearer - I was trying to reach a compromise between the two readings:

Yonge says he "immediately he strangled himself", Hicks says he "died on the spot through holding his breath" - I think simply saying that Zeno "died by self-suffocation" is probably a reasonable compromise between the two readings. Pasicles (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the great explanation. I am completely satisfied with the way it stands now. Thanks for taking the time to expand on this! JesseKramme (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

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Syrian Zeno?

Recently the claim has been added that Zeno was Syrian, sourced from a couple of encyclopedia articles that themselves do not source the claim. To the best of my knowledge, this claim is not supported by any ancient source and is indeed contradicted by what's in Zeno's biography provided by Diogenes Laertius, which is where most of our information comes from about Zeno. It seems to me that we should remove the claim from the article, with perhaps a footnote noting the issue. Teishin (talk) 15:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Done. This makes sense to refer to only original sources. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 16:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I've added a note about the discrepancy. Tariq afflaq, please address further concerns here. Teishin (talk) 17:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica is almost 250 years old, I don’t think you’re so !! It literally says : the stoic system was created by a Syrian Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Comments about my age are not relevant here. As noted, Britannica does not source this claim. The claim is contradicted by data we have in our primary source, which dates from around 300 CE. The claim from this tertiary source should be disregarded. Teishin (talk) 18:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica is a reliable source per WP:RS. Of course it may be in error, but you can't assume that it is just because you know of no ancient source which supports it's assertion. What we need here our modern scholarly sources which support or refute such claims. Paul August ☎ 18:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

It is well attested in the literaure that he is Phoenician. BTW, Britannica is obsolete for this and is not a source here. Also see Bevan. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 19:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Zeno could be Syrian and Phoenician at the same time just like papinian a phoenician and a native of Emesa Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

It couldn't be like that at all, as we know Zeno was from Citium.Teishin (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Here is a simple sample of modern scholarship. [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk • contribs) 19:03, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Tariq afflaq appears to be ideologically motivated. All of their contribs are associated with Syrian nationality/ethnicity claims. Note also that they've included this same error about Zeno on Syrians and they've introduced the exact same error on Porphyry (philosopher). I agree with PopulationGeneticsLevant note on their latest revert that it is likely that administrative action will be required. Teishin (talk) 19:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I’m not denying the fact that Zeno of citium is Phoenician I’m just adding the term Syrian this is what a lot of reliable sources him Tariq afflaq (talk) 21:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Label him* Tariq afflaq (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

teishin keeps reverting my reliable changes and just delete it without explaining, I think you have a personal problem with Syria Tariq afflaq (talk) 22:10, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

As promised, administrative action has been requested at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tariq_afflaq_reported_by_User:Teishin_(Result:_) Teishin (talk) 22:22, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You just want to neglect all of the reliable sources I’ve been given you!!! Britannica is 250 years old and one of Google’s most reliable sources and as I’ve said I didn’t say he’s not Phoenician but rather A Syrian and Phoenician Tariq afflaq (talk) 22:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Do you have other reliable sources besides Britannica? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our own article says that nearly all of our biographical details about Zeno come from Diogenes Laertius. Britannica is obviously in error here. This is, of course, why there is Wikipedia, because there's too much information for companies like Britannica to keep up with and get accurate. Teishin (talk) 14:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our articles cannot be used as reliable sources. Why can't Zeno be both Syrian and Phoenician? Paul August ☎ 14:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Our job is to be concerned with what this article says. I am pointing out what this article says, in the Talk page about this article. Teishin (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes I have this source states that he was a hellenized Syrian philosopher https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/stoics , I don’t see a problem with being Syrian and Phoenician at the same time, Phoenicia was incorporated into Syria after the Roman invasion of the levant, in fact papinian the Roman jurist was a Phoenician and a native of Emesa in Syria so i see it very normal, I’m not saying he’s not Phoenician I’m just added the term Syrian Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I’ve* Tariq afflaq (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I would like to add: in the book « Religion and Identity in Porphyry of Tyre: The Limits of Hellenism in Late Antiquity » Book by Aaron P. Johnson, it states that Pythagoras may be a Syrian from Tyre, and Tyre in phoenicia, so what’s the problem with bending both? Read here please https://books.google.ae/books?id=mM7N_v0xcmQC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA271#v=onepage&q=Pythagoras%20was%20a%20Syrian&f=false Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for the linguistic mistakes I keep doing, it’s the auto corrector Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Another minor factor that could be added is that phoenicia contained some Cities in modern day Syrian such as Ugarit, Arwad, Tartus, Latakia and Amrit so this could be factored in I think so Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Britannica cannot be in error, it was created in 1768, it’s not a grammatical nor punctuational mistake, there is no resemblance between the words Phoenician and Syrian to make such a big mistake, the claims that a 250 years old encyclopedia made a mistake are totally unsubstantiated. Tariq afflaq (talk) 19:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)