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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 193.198.162.14 (talk) at 08:04, 17 August 2021 (→‎Ghani in exile: he just fled). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Notability

This fails WP:GNG and WP:CRYSTAL.

In all probabilities, it will be a (not anti-climatic) surrender with some kind of transitional government. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:27, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So if it's just some peaceful surrender, how come the source you removed referred to 'heavy assaults' and a citywide blackout?
Even if it is an anti-climatic surrender, it's still a major point in the conflict and should probably have an article of its own. The Fall of Saigon took all of one day, yet it still has an article dedicated to it and it has more than enough sources to back it up. NHCLS (talk) 09:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, it will still not be a battle and a title like Fall of Kabul (2021) will be more appropriate. But currently even that title is not appropriate, per WP:CRYSTAL. 176.62.32.5 (talk) 09:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to WP:CRYSTAL: "All articles about anticipated events must be verifiable, and the subject matter must be of sufficiently wide interest that it would merit an article if the event had already occurred." I think there's a good argument that the Battle/Fall of Kabul (you're probably right about needing to rename it "Fall") meets both criteria - there are verifiable sources about what's occurring and it's definitely of sufficiently wide interest for its own article. NHCLS (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A battle using lots of explosives would be anticlimatic - and the massive arrival of US aircraft for the evacuation could also be argued as anticlimatic, with a high carbon footprint. A nearly bloodless surrender, which seems likely since Ghani has already flown out of Afghanistan and left the other politicians to negotiate the power transfer, could rather be seen as pro-climatic. Boud (talk) 14:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
NHCLS, the only source to mention of "city-wide blackout" and "heavy assaults" is a private security firm who has no repute for journalism (of any kind) and is yet to be cited by any MSM across the entire Afghan Conflict. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Preliminary WP:SNOW consensus for Fall of Kabul (2021), which is a much stronger consensus than that for the current title. Editors also noted the current title is misleading and there is an immediate concern with Wikipedia spreading the idea of a fictional battle. Discussions may continue to find more suitable titles. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Kabul (2021) → Fall of Kabul (2021) – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change. Saqib (talk) 09:59, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Battle observably inaccurate since there is no report of meaningful clashes. Rapid renaming in "Siege" ? Yug (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Kabul (2021) → Fall of Kabul (2021) – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change. Saqib (talk) 09:59, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Battle observably inaccurate since there is no report of meaningful clashes. Rapid renaming in "Siege" ? Yug (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • President has fleed, he is then no more in charge. Who is ? Without formal-public agreement we don't know yet, we must assume some central government representative is still negociating. Yug (talk) 14:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

C class

Hi! I'm a relatively new editor and while I do agree this is a C-class article I'm wondering if there would be some kind of wait until the referencing and content sections of the B-criteria could be properly assessed. Like how would that process go? Especially since I doubt there will be academic articles until some weeks in the future.A. C. Santacruz (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It can be assessed at any time - realistically for this article, wait a few more days until events have settled down and editors have had time to update. Juxlos (talk) 00:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translated bold names for the lead

It may be wise of us to see if there are Dari or Arabic names for the events that are unfolding. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So far it looks like Arabic and Farsi Wikipedia are both currently going with "Fall", at least according to Google Translate. --eduardog3000 (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't a proper name for this in English yet, so thinking about other languages is rather premature. Surtsicna (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does anybody know how many hours it took for city to fall?

Does anybody know how many hours it took for city to fall?

Between https://twitter.com/AlArabiya_Brk/status/1426881306693095426

" الداخلية الأفغانية: نشر قوات أمن خاصة في كابل لتأمينها "

Afghan Interior: Deploying special security forces in Kabul to secure it 5:19 AM · Aug 15, 2021·Alarabiya Social Media Poster

to https://twitter.com/AJABreaking/status/1426974367230185477?s=20

" الداخلية الأفغانية: نشر قوات أمن خاصة في كابل لتأمينها "

Urgent | Taliban militants remove the Afghan flag from inside the presidential palace in Kabul 11:29 AM · Aug 15, 2021·AJAEditorialApp

So it took around 6 hours 10 minutes Randoperson1 (talk) 04:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are there other sources beside twitter to confirm the amount of time for the city to fall? To be fair, it does not appear that the major news networks have talked about the timeframe. The only reference I could find was it took about a week for the country to fall.See https://www.ksl.com/article/50223558/taliban-sweep-into-afghan-capital-after-government-collapses Jurisdicta (talk) 07:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kabul was a done deal once the Taliban was at the gates, it took no time, no resistance essentially, they drove right in. --Kathy262 (talk) 09:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead sentence

The lead sentence should not present the title of the article as if it were the established name of the event. It is not, and that would be misleading. Nothing is gained by forcing the article title into the lead sentence; see WP:AVOIDBOLD and WP:REDUNDANCY. The article title is not in the lead sentence of 2021 Taliban offensive either. Surtsicna (talk) 08:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A massive amount of sources are making reference to the Fall of Saigon in comparison (not to mention a very similar picture taken with the choppers), and as so it is being called the Fall of Kabul. Just Google searching it shows so many articles with that name. I think it's for certain that it will become the established name of the event, if it hasn't already. Here are some articles with the name: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Kettleonwater (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There was no battle in the end, and journalists all over are using Fall. --Kathy262 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There is a difference between "fall of Kabul", which is what sources are using, and "Fall of Kabul", which a proper noun which they are not using. "Fall of Saigon" has become a proper noun in sources (though not close to universally, from my searches) over time, and Wikipedia should not force "Fall of Kabul" to be a capitalized, proper name until the sources do that. Keep the lead without bold text. — Goszei (talk) 10:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to wait for "Fall of Kabul" to become a proper noun, it already has become one. Refer again to "Fall of Saigon": sometimes referred to as "the fall of Saigon" in passing: does not mean the proper name is not "Fall of Saigon". Eight of the 10 articles I linked use the direct phrase "the fall of Kabul", and 5 directly capitalise "Fall of Kabul" as such. Here are some additional articles that capitalise "Fall of Kabul" exactly: [1][2][3][4][5] Kettleonwater (talk) 10:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected opening line as before. Don't want to escalate further, but this name is backed by articles. Sources won't refer to it in a different name in the future. Kettleonwater (talk) 10:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is disingenuous. The first four of those capitalize "Fall" because it is the first word in the title; none of them capitalize it in mid-sentence, and two expressly use lower case in mid-sentence. The fifth is in all-caps. Surtsicna (talk) 10:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't see the point in your argument. It's a noun regardless (why do you think four out of five of those don't start with "the"?). Will wait until further sources develop. Kettleonwater (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They do not start with "the" because articles are usually left out of headlines. "Fall" is indeed a noun, but not all nouns are capitalized in English. The point in my argument is that the sources you cited do not use "Fall of Kabul" as a proper name. Surtsicna (talk) 13:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How is it not a proper name? There are numerous articles which refer to Fall of Saigon as "the fall of Saigon" both in headlines and paragraph text. [1][2][3] [4][5][6] There are certainly also numerous articles that capitalise Fall of Saigon as the start of their article headlines, too, and you also ignored my earlier sources which do capitalise Fall of Kabul later on in their article headlines. [1][2 (uses lowercase beforehand)] How is this not a noun? Kettleonwater (talk) 13:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Again, "fall" is a noun. And again, not all nouns need to be capitalized. Wikipedia uses sentence case; see WP:SENTENCECASE. The articles you cited are in headline case: all major words are capitalized. I am sorry that I have to be blunt, but all you are proving is your inability to comprehend basic grammar and orthography. Surtsicna (talk) 14:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nice deflection. You're not understanding my argument: that "Fall of Kabul" is a name. You just said not all nouns need to be capitalised: therefore you no longer have any argument that "the fall of Kabul", or otherwise, "Fall of Kabul" is not the established name of the event, as you stated first. Kettleonwater (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You do not have any argument that it is. The articles you cited prove absolutely nothing as they do not treat it as a proper name. Surtsicna (talk) 14:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Article 1: "The fall of Kabul". (in addition, an album that says "The fall of Kabul - in pictures" referring to it as an event. Article 2: "whether Fall of Kabul is his Saigon moment", Article 3: "In pictures: The fall of Kabul", Article 4: "The Fall of Kabul" (inspected for case), Article 5: "Fall of Kabul brings shame to the West", Article 7: "With The Rapid Fall Of Kabul"..., Article 8: "The West Prepares for the Fall of Kabul", Video: "Fall of Kabul: Rhea Chakraborty says 'smash the..." Article 12: "Fall of Kabul: Westerners rush to..." Article 14: "GOP Rep. McCaul: Fall Of Kabul Is "An Unmitigated Disaster Of Epic Proportions", Metro headline: "THE FALL OF KABUL"
These are all examples of articles treating the EVENT as a name in different tenses before and after it happened: whether "the fall of Kabul", "the Fall of Kabul", "Fall of Kabul" or otherwise. This argument is WP:LAME. Kettleonwater (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If it's in-line paragraph text you want referencing the name, then Articles 3, 5, 7 and 8 all call the event "the fall of Kabul" in their article content. Kettleonwater (talk) 15:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are misrepresenting again. Article 4 does not refer to "the Fall of Kabul" but to "THE FALL OF KABUL" (all-caps). Others capitalize it as the first word. You have not proven that capitalization choices point to it being the established name. The "fall of Kabul" is one of the many descriptive terms, others including "seizure", "takeover", and "capture". None of them is a proper name. Surtsicna (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are glossing over my points again. Article 4 uses all caps for its CSS, and when inspecting element, the pure text is "The Fall of Kabul", I even labelled this for you, and you can see some sources do not capitalise it as the first word. We are going around in circles. Historical context usually assigns "Fall of X" to these events (please search Wikipedia) and "Fall of Kabul" is by far WP:COMMONNAME when it comes to this. You haven't even sourced your descriptive terms, while "Fall of Kabul" HAS been capitalised as I've shown. In addition, your argument earlier stated that event names do not need to be capitalised nouns to be viewed as names. You are contradicting yourself. Do you believe that when people say "the fall of Saigon", that that is not the name of the event? Kettleonwater (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You still do not appreciate the difference between sentence case and headline case. You have not compared "Fall of Kabul" to other descriptive terms so it has not been shown to be the most common name; and in any case, it would still be merely a descriptive term rather than a proper name. You have not shown fall of Kabul to be capitalized in sentence case. I am not contradicting myself; you are failing to understand what we are writing about here. Surtsicna (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image for infobox conflict?

Does anyone have the picture of Kabul citizens running trying to flee their home because of taliban arrival? link like this? and this? linkMhatopzz (talk) 10:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe use this picture? Mhatopzz (talk) 10:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Copyrighted images cannot be used. I suggest checking FlickR. Surtsicna (talk) 11:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Commons has https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Taliban-office.jpg but it is up for deletion. --Kathy262 (talk) 11:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Best shot is probably public domain .gov or .mil - and I doubt there will be much media published by the US military/Dept of State regarding the evac. Juxlos (talk) 14:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/ghani-leaves-afghanistan-taliban-enter-kabul-set-take-control
https://www.voanews.com/us-afghanistan-troop-withdrawal/civilians-diplomats-seek-evacuation-chaotic-kabul-airport
How about this? this picture is from voa Mhatopzz (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno if Al Jazeera is on the ground there but I think it was Selfstudier who said they sometimes release their own images under CC licenses. If they have their own images from the area then it could be worth shooting them an email. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ghani in exile

Is Ashraf Ghani literally in exile, as the infobox says? --Mhhossein talk 14:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem like he's personally in exile, nor his government (per his Facebook post). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ProcrastinatingReader, yeah, I would presume that in exile would imply that he is not allowed or unable to return. Tyrone Madera (talk) 19:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of exile according to https://www.merriam-webster.com/ is "the state or a period of forced absence from one's country or home". Given the events in Afghanistan, it is unlikely that his government will continue to be in power nor would he be recognized at home. Jurisdicta (talk) 07:39, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
He just fled, abandoned the country and did not indicate an intention to act as a part of a supposed government in exile. Not sure if that qualifies as being "in exile". Related discussion: Talk:Islamic Republic of Afghanistan#Government in exile? 193.198.162.14 (talk) 08:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CH-46 N38TU (BuNo 154038)

On the 15th, a photograph was published by the AP https://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/Afghanistan/e08a5d9334c14988954b2d1afb0669d4/24/0 of a Dep't of State Air Wing CH-46 N38TU (BuNo 154038) flying over Kabul - evacuating the US Embassy

It was noticed that 154038 was actually also photographed long ago on the deck of USS Hancock during Frequent Wind, during the evacuation of Saigon.

https://twitter.com/whatismoo/status/1426939056970244103

https://www.helis.com/database/cn/8983/

Seems like a direct comparison to The Fall of Saigon...

History doesn't repeat....though it does echo....doktorb wordsdeeds 05:42, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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