Talk:Armenian genocide

Revisiting factual blunders in the lede

1. “Around one million ethnic Armenians”. Tons of edits have been suggested in an attempt to change this unbelievably stubborn number approximation mindset by the managing editors. Alas, still there.
2. “Spearheaded by the ruling Committee of Union and Progress (CUP)”. For uninformed readers it’d be unclear who the unidentified “ruling Committee” were. This inflexibility on the editors’ part not to specify, for clarity, that it was the wartime government of the Ottoman Empire, is striking. Political Science 101: The ruling party is elected for a fixed tenure and is changeable. The ruling party changes after they have lost elections, but the government, with all its functions, continue to exist as a perpetual entity. The CUP, as a government, continued to exist throughout the war. Besides, a committee cannot accomplish mass executions, death marches, and forced Islamization of a country’s subjects. The government, on the other hand, can.
3. “Forced Islamization of Armenian women and children”, “Around 100,000 to 200,000 Armenian women and children were forcibly converted to Islam […].” In many instances, Armenian males were also forcibly Islamized.
4. “Prior to World War I, Armenians were concentrated in eastern Anatolia”, “whose homeland in eastern Anatolia”, “more than two millennia of Armenian civilization in eastern Anatolia”, etc. I’m running out of ways to restate the fact that geographical and historical habitat of the Armenians was NEVER “eastern Anatolia”, a relatively new toponym, a tautology meaning “eastern East”, introduced to replace the geographically correct place name “Armenian Highlands” (or Armenian Plateau) Armenian Highlands. At least consider “eastern Asia Minor” or “eastern parts of Asia Minor”, for Heaven’s sake.
5. “Large-scale massacres of Armenians occurred in the 1890s and 1909.” There was another large-scale massacre in 1904 1904 Sasun uprising, fyi.

Hope you'll find these edits helpful and suggested in good faith.98.231.157.169 (talk) 17:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Davidian

I disagree, or at least am unconvinced, about 1, 2, and 4. Please don't take this as an invitation to expound further. To avoid further bludgeoning, I'd recommend leaving your points as is to see if other editors agree.

I think 3 and 5 are great points, although they are in need of reliable sources. If you make edit requests in change x to y format with citations included, I am likely to support accepting the requests. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@ Firefangledfeathers, when was the last time that the managing editor has taken heed of the mountains of RS I’d offered in this talk? If there is reluctance to make alterations to the pre-agreed text, especially as concerns the range of mass murdered Armenians placed in the lede, no RS is going to fix that. And, yes, Armenian males were also forcibly Islamized. Hold out for RS. And the 1904 Sasun uprising has also resulted in a large-scale massacre. RS coming up.98.231.157.169 (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2021 (UTC)Cheers, Davidian

The sentence in the lead

"Against the academic consensus, Turkey denies that the deportation of Armenians was genocide or a wrongful act."

I think this sentence violates NPOV slightly. The reason is that it shouldn't be up to us to say "deportations were a wrongful act" (even though they are). You may say, "Well, it is wrong because it is a genocide.", which I agree. Then I would say if something being genocide makes it automatically wrong, which it does, then we shouldn't append that it is also "a wrongful act" because that sounds like an overstatement as the same message is already given implicitly in the previous expression (i.e. deporatation of Armenians being a genocide). Best regards --V. E. (talk) 23:41, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

• I can see what you mean by this. However, it's not the case that Turkey's position is something like: "Yes, we agree that the deportation was an evil and inhumane act and are sorry for it [but don't use the word genocide to describe it]." As Akçam states, "What must be understood is that the thesis known in Turkey as the 'official version'... takes as its starting point the assumption that the events of 1915 were derived from governmental actions that were, in essence, within the bounds of what are considered normal and legal actions for a state entity... [according to this POV] there are no moral or legal grounds upon which such actions can be faulted." Perhaps it would be more clear to reword to something more like: "The Turkish government maintains that the deportation of Armenians was a legitimate action and cannot be described as a genocide". (t · c) buidhe 01:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Good suggestion, maybe depending on what you wrote, it can a be elaborated to "The Turkish government maintains that the deportation of Armenians was a legitimate action both legally and morally and cannot be described as a genocide." (Addition is put in italics.) I think your proposal is also fine.--V. E. (talk) 08:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

  Disagree. Per Akçam (mentioned by @Buidhe), the part of the lede is represented just fine, and your reason for change “it shouldn't be up to us to say "deportations were a wrongful act"” isn’t valid (it wasn’t up to us to begin with). ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, firstly, I didn't understand what you meant by "it wasn’t up to us to begin with", can you please explain it more clearly or paraphrase it?

Secondly, regardless of whether you agree with me on "it shouldn't be up to us to say "deportations were a wrongful act"", the wording proposed by Buidhe makes it easier for a reader to understand what is meant by "Turkey denies that the deportations were a wrongful act". In fact, in this quotation above, Taner Akçam's description of the situation is closer to the newer paraphrasing compared to the "a wrongful act". Besides, if someone has concerns about the genocide being not mentioned to be a wrongful action, it is wrong because it is a genocide itself. Best regards --V. E. (talk) 10:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I would understand your suggestion in other situations, but not here as we have specific context. What Akçam describes is that per Turkish government, there are no moral or legal grounds upon which such actions can be faulted.

"What must be understood is that the thesis known in Turkey as the 'official version'... takes as its starting point the assumption that the events of 1915 were derived from governmental actions that were, in essence, within the bounds of what are considered normal and legal actions for a state entity."

So in this context, the wording "Against the academic consensus, Turkey denies that the deportation of Armenians was genocide or a wrongful act" needs no change. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:03, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I am not saying that "wrongful act" is not an entirely wrong wording but with the new proposal it can be more clear to convey what is meant by "wrongful act". Furthermore, the new proposal is more similar to the Akçam's explanation compared to the current one, and what is the reason to not transform something from adequate to decent?--V. E. (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what you've described is just an opinion of yours. I explained why I think the wording is fairly represented, and needs no change. I don't see how your suggestion is "more similar" to Akçam or that it makes things "more clear". ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

It is more similar to Akçam's because Akçam explains that Turkish government thinks that there are no moral or legal grounds to consider Ottoman actions to be faulted instead of simply stating that it is "a wrongful action". It is more clear because it better helps to convey what is actually meant by "a wrongful action" which sounds vauge compared to the proposal.--V. E. (talk) 11:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

To me (and if you take a closer look, you might also notice), Akçam explanation sounds like that the Turkish government while denying the genocide and calling it "deportations", also says that those "deportations" were not wrong. In fact, they were considered "normal and legal actions for a state entity" by the Turkish 'official version'. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Akçam uses the word faulted in the context of Turkey does not consider itself to be liable for the deportations, however, the current wording "a wrongful act" sounds like to be referring to the whether deportations being something "good or bad" instead of Turkey's responsilibility in the event. A simple add such as "Turkey denies that the deportation of Armenians was genocide or a wrongful act which it can be hold liable for." would help to convey that meaning (addition is put in italics).--V. E. (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the proposed change from Buidhe is more clear: "The Turkish government maintains that the deportation of Armenians was a legitimate action and cannot be described as a genocide." The current phrasing is ambiguous, and risks WP:NPOV in that it doesn't Let the facts speak for themselves. The more factual thing is that Turkey doesn't think they did anything illegal, whereas "wrongful" sounds much more like an opinion. Again, it's not to say that genocide isn't wrongful – it absolutely is. But we should let that stand on the facts as presented. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Last edits

@Firefangledfeathers: Does any journal can be considered as a reliable source? even it was a self-published source? @Kevo327: Why do you think that the secular committee of union and progress will care about Islamization? And why do you think that the Islamization can be considered as "attack"? --14:46, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

What leads you to believe that Kurt 2016 is self-published? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 15:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I'm talking about the cited site, which can anyone publish on it. I have asked before about these sites here, and the answer was no, it is not allowed to cite a self-published sources. --Averroes 22 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

kurt has listed all the primary sources he cited,this particular work is also cited by 36 different academic works, this is as reliable as it gets for me. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 16:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, the journal is open-access, but that doesn't mean anyone can publish in the journal. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Kevo327: So you can cite here the listed primary source, that would be better than cite a self-published source. Where are these academic works? --Averroes 22 (talk) 17:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Averroes 22, one of the key parts of your arguments seems to be that the CUP can't have pursued islamization policies because it was secular. My limited knowledge of the CUP suggests that it pursued both secular and islamist goals, and that it can't be described as solely secular. More importantly, forced islamization happened, and the fact of its occurrence is well-documented by reliable sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I know, the forced islamization happened, but the purpose was to eradication of Armenian culture, so that writing "cultural assimilation" as what sources says would be better than "Islamization".

Even regimes whose goals are entirely Islamic, such as the regime of Abdul Hamid II, did not kill this number of Armenians, so why would regimes whose goals are also secular would kill this number? So if there were Islamic purposes that doesn't mean that they would kill all non-muslims in the empire. --Averroes 22 (talk) 18:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Akcam speaks of assimilation. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

And also of islamization. I am fine with discussing both, but someone would need to write up some content on cultural assimilation before I'd support a mention in the infobox. The stable version of the article had a well-sourced section in islamization and an appropriate mention of that in the infobox (with a link to Hidden Armenians). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: But the purpose was to eradication of Armenian culture, not to increase Muslim population, the CUP with his secular purposes doesn't look very care about Islamization. Please read my comment up there again. --Averroes 22 (talk) 20:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

• It did not suit the CUP's aims for Armenians to become Greek convert to the Greek Orthodox Church and start speaking Greek, but it was OK if they became Turks, Kurds, or Arabs. As Kurt states, the most important factor in losing Armenian identity was converting to Islam, and the CUP also saw identity in religious terms. I don't think that "cultural assimilation" would give the reader a better understanding of this process, the connotation of this word that it's a more or less voluntary process like immigrants to the US learning English. (t · c) buidhe 21:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC) I should add, at least one non-specialist reviewer of Akcam's book was confused by his usage of "assimilation" (see Peter Balakian's review). It's not incorrect terminology but it does have the potential to confuse the average reader. Also, just being open access journal does not mean it's self published. The journal has an editorial board staffed by legitimate academics so it can't be considered self-published. (t · c) buidhe 21:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: There is no doubt that the goal behind this process is the loss of the Armenian identity, and not for religious reasons, because the Committee of Union and Progress was essentially secular. I don't think that "cultural assimilation" would not understand correctly here, and you look don't understand what "cultural assimilation" mean, surly the fact that the immigrants to the US will learn English doesn't mean that they will completely lose their culture, and also there are people who learn English out of US. The presence of an editorial board does not mean that it is not considered a self-published source, for example, the ScienceDaily have an editorial board, but this doesn't mean that isn't a self-published source here. --Averroes 22 (talk) 22:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

ScienceDaily is a press release aggregator, which means it publishes press releases without editing. I don't see how that's at all relevant to the reliability of a published scientific journal. (t · c) buidhe 00:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: You look don't understand well, ScienceDaily is a journal source and it's publishing a very similar scientific articles with this source, and it's claim to have an editorial board, and it's also an open access (which means that it is self-published) journal. What do you mean by "without editing"? --Averroes 22 (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I encourage you to drop this line of argument. If you have serious reasons to doubt the reliability of the Kurt source, you might open up a thread at WP:RSN, though I recommend against it. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: I have already open up a very similar thread here, but the answer is no, it's not allowed to cite a self-published source. Also, I don't see that we have reached a dead-end (A long argument without agreement) yet, my comment is above, you can respond to it. --Averroes 22 (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

ScienceDaily is a press release aggregator, Études arméniennes contemporaines is not. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 01:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Any evidence? Even assuming that's true, so what? How this could provides the fact that the Études arméniennes contemporaines is "not" a self-published source. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Procedure for selecting papers: "Études arméniennes contemporaines is a peer-reviewed academic journal. Each submitted paper is anonymously reviewed by two experts, members of the editorial board, the scientific board, or external researchers. Reviewers are selected on the basis of their expertise in the given topic." Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: How this could provides the fact that the Études arméniennes contemporaines is "not" a self-published source, or a press release aggregator? ScienceDaily nearly say the same thing about itself here and here. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Neither of those links suggest that ScienceDaily conducts peer-review of submissions. Also, please stop pinging me; I am paying attention to this discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

You look don't read it well, it says: especially those tied to a peer-reviewed journal article. --Averroes 22 (talk) 02:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

From your link: "Please note that we cannot guarantee posting of all the releases we receive, since we try to select those which we think would be of most interest to our readers. Basically, that means any new research finding (especially those tied to a peer-reviewed journal article)..."

This is saying that they especially like to publish findings in peer-reviewed journals. This statement implies that ScienceDirect itself is not conducting any peer review. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Why do you think that ScienceDaily itself should conducting peer review? --Averroes 22 (talk) 03:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't. The fact that ScienceDaily doesn't conduct peer review is one of the things that distinguishes it from Études. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not a big difference, it doesn't make a big difference if the site reviews by itself or based on the reviews of other sites. It may make a difference if you succeed in proving that the review performed by the site itself will be better than the reviews of other sites. --Averroes 22 (talk) 03:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a big difference: publications with editorial boards and a peer-review process are not venues of self-publication. You brought up ScienceDirect as a possible counterexample, but ScienceDirect does not have any peer-review process.

I worry that I am repeating myself, which is often a sign that I should back away from a discussion. I am going to do so. If anyone besides Averroes 22 has reliability concerns about Études Arméniennes Contemporaines, or the Kurt article specifically, I would be happy to hear about them. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: It makes no difference, on both sides, the published content is reviewed, regardless of who reviewed it, and ScienceDaily says that it's publishing the already peer-reviewed content. It seems that you have no evidence to prove what you are saying, can you give me evidence? Also, I will ask, why do you think that the site should conduct the peer-review by itself? --Averroes 22 (talk) 13:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: No issues whatsoever. It's crystal clear. I have no idea what Averroes is talking about. Dr. Vogel (talk) 22:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: @Kevo32: @Averroes 22: Forced Islamisation? How about Forced Turkification or Forced Sunnification? The official religious sect of Ottoman Caliphate and empire was Sunni Islam, which is central to Turkish nationalism, it's the same Sunni Caliphate that Shia killing ISIS wanted to revive. Were Shia Muslims involved in the genocide? It looks like all Islam is being stereotyped as being one and the same? I remember reading that Shia majority Iran does not deny the genocide, and they did took in a steady stream of Armenian refugees during the world war. That leaves Shia Azeri Turks. What was their involvement of any? Nolicmahr (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC) @Kevo327: FYI see comment above Nolicmahr (talk) 23:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Nolicmahr, I see 'Turkification' and 'cultural assimilation' in a similar light for this article: I would love to see more discussion of the ways in which they were a part of the genocide. For now, I'd oppose 'Sunnification', not having seen it mentioned in reliable sources. Have you found some? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

forced islamisation is the correct term here (in my opinion), because the context is that women were forced into islam for marriage, so Turkification is invalid, and about suunification I agree with Firefangledfeathers. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 10:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

"forced islamisation is the correct term here (in my opinion)" - your opinion is not relevant. what is relevant is the wording that sources use. That is not an "in my opinion", it is policy. However, it is in my opinion that every few years a new set of idiots come to this page to endlessly argue the toss about small bits of nothing. Whatever the result the overall article remains the same mess it has always been. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 22:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Date and Number of Deaths

Wikipedia’s own article List of genocides by death toll states that the Armenian Genocide lasted from 1915 to 1922. Compare these dates with the dates shown in the infobox of the current article, 1915-1917. The same Wikipedia article provides estimates for the number of Armenians killed, RANGING from 600,000 to 1,500,000. Compare this RANGE with the rounded-up figure of “around one million” in the lede of the current article. This information has been provided as a courtesy to (t · c) buidhe.98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)Davidian

Please also note that in the same Wikipedia's own article List of genocides by death toll, the location of the Armenian Genocide is given as “territories of present-day Turkey, Syria and Iraq”, and not “eastern Anatolia,” as in the current article.98.231.157.169 (talk) 18:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)Davidian

• courtesy pinging buidhe. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 23:18, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

A courtesy perusal of the numerous talk archive pages would also be in order. The numbers subject has been talked to death and supposedly settled years ago. Who is now trying to make this corpse walk again? And why? And as for "eastern Anatolia". WTF! I am speechless. 78.149.46.96 (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)