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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by PanjshirLions (talk | contribs) at 07:24, 6 December 2021 (→Egypt Eyalet Suggestion: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Untitled

Ottoman or Egyptian Campaign? The Ottoman participation in this conflict was nominal; in reality it was Muhammad Ali's project from start to finish. Vassiliev, for example, consistently refers to the invading forces as "Egyptian." "Egyptian Occupation of Arabia" might also be suitable, as the Egyptians continued to govern the area until 1840. -- Slacker (talk) 03:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After carefully reading the article about Muhammad Ali of Egypt I think things are not as easy as that. In 1799 the ottoman sultan Selim III sent him to Egypt as member of the ottoman army. In 1805 he was recognized by the Porte and appointed Ottoman viceroy of Egypt. Though technically and de facto he probably was autonom and independant enough to rule as he wished. This was to some extant normal for Turkish governors, Pashas and Agas and maybe others at the time and the very thing the reforms of the ottoman sultan Mahmud II later tried to change. At least until the desaster of the egyptian fleet at the Battle of Navarino in 1827 Muhammad Ali probably saw himself as part of the Ottoman Empire and himself a subject of some sort to the Sultan at Constantinople. The First Turko-Egyptian War may be seen as the official break with the sultan in 1831. The conflict with the Saudis was in 1811-1818 even befor the egyptian campaign in Sudan. The Saudis had taken the Hejaz in 1802 from the Ottoman Empire and if indeed the ottoman Sultan sent Muammad Ali to reconquer Arabia, then I think it should be called an Ottoman affair carried out by their egyptian representives for that is what Muhammad Ali was at the time, though later he may have been an independend sovereign of his own. - But that was later. --T.woelk (talk) 12:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, but if the Egyptians invaded after being asked to do so by the Ottomans, that doesn't mean it wasn't the Egyptians who in fact invaded and not the Ottomans. I just feel this title may give the impression that there were Turkish troops and officers involved, or that the Porte had an active role in commanding the conflict, when in reality this was a campaign by the army created by Muhammad Ali. I suppose we can make that clear in the body of the article. -- Slacker (talk) 17:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm - I would agree that the troops involved started from the "ottoman province" of Egypt for this campaign. But how do you define "Egyptian troops". Soldiers who had been born, raised and trained in Egypt? William Facey states in Dir'Iyyah and the first Saudi State, p65, 1997, (ISBN 0905743 806) that the army of Ibrahim Pasha who had been born in what is today Greece and may have been of albanian heritage, incuded 3000 North African Cavalrymen and North African, Turkish and Albanian Infantry. The medical force seems to have been mostly of Italian origin (Scoto, Gentili, Todeschini and Socio)and the siege engineer Vaissiere was French. He also names the cavalry commanders 'Awzun Ali and Rishwan Agha though not making any reference to their origins. So I conclude that the Turkish and Albanian units in Ibrahim pashas army may have included some of the regular ottoman troops that Muhammad Ali pasha had brought with him when he landed in Egypt in 1799, himself an ottoman officer at that time. --- going to bed now --T.woelk (talk) 21:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he did use a lot of North Africans, but I meant that it was an army raised by Muhammad Ali himself, according to modern standards, and not an army supplied to him by the Porte, at least that was my impression. But if he was using Ottoman troops that landed with him in Egypt, then that would indeed be different. Since I don't know for sure, I guess we should leave the page as is. Thanks. -- Slacker (talk) 22:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commander

for every battle that says Muhammad Ali Pasha I will remove Muhammad Ali since he was not even there for these battles. Or was he? In all the Turkish articles it does not cite Muhammad Ali as a commander. Let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cauca50 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 11:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Ottoman–Wahhabi War → Wahhabi War – The article was repeatedly moved in the past few years without any relevant discussions ([1][2][3]). And, as obvious from the above 2008 discussion, whether to use "Ottoman-Wahhabi" or "Egyptian-Wahhabi" remains somewhat controversial ("Saudi" is much less common). The campaign involved an army raised by Muhammad Ali of Egypt, but was launched in the name of the Ottoman Porte. So I'm proposing a new title, Wahhabi War, that is both NPOV and used by several sources:

  • Support per nom and a perusal of Google Books results. Other names used include "Turko-Wahhabi War" but "Wah(h)habi" alone seems more common and avoids the confusion noted by the nominator above. —  AjaxSmack  03:20, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 31 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 18:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Wahhabi War → Ottoman–Saudi War – Ottoman–Saudi War is the Real name of the War, not Wahabbi War. D4rkeRR9 (talk) 16:36, 31 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —Nnadigoodluck███ 18:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Comment: If moved, it should be Ottoman-Saudi War (with a hyphen), as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES (combining form). —Biscuit-in-Chief :-) (/tɔːk/ – /ˈkɒntɹɪbs/) 01:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. "Ottoman-Saudi" is anachronistic, as "Saudi" is a common term for "Saudi Arabia", which did not exist as a kingdom until 1932. Moreover, the scope of this article is a bit weird. The Wahhabis have been at "war" generically since 1744. And have certainly been at war with the Ottomans since at least 1802. This article is covering just a single campaign. "Egyptian invasion of the Hejaz" would be a more accurate description. Or at least "Egyptian-Wahhabi war", particularly as the Ottomans were not directly involved, and indeed (if some sources are to be believed) the Ottoman Porte was kinda hoping it would drag out, and that both the Egyptians and Wahhabis would pummel and weaken each other. Walrasiad (talk) 09:23, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the proposed move. Ottoman-Saudi is the commonly used term in both Turkish and Arabic. There is nothing anachronistic about the term "Saudi", since that's what the House of Saud (and the land unde its rule) was called then and now. Saudi Arabia as it is now only emerged in 1932, but the Saudi domination of parts of Najd (Central Arabia) dates to the 18th century. Muhammad Ali's Egyptians were independent in practice, but officially still part of the Ottoman Empire, something that they acknowledged. Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TheEagle107: This is true, but "Wahhabi" denotes the religious doctrine, "Saudi" the state and territorial domain. Of course, the relationship is symbiotic in this case, but this was the Saudi state (that's how it's called in Arabic, الدولة السعودية الأولى), not the Wahhabi state. Unfortunately, there is the tendency of ex post facto projection (especially since 9/11) of the religious/ideological element, whereas we are talking about states and rulers. For example, the Soviets in the Cold War were the Soviets, not the Leninists. Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης (talk) 18:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ανδρέας Κρυστάλλης: Anyway, I would like to suggest adding all the appropriate titles to the preface of the article (the article's introduction). For example: Ottoman-Wahhabi War (1811–1818) (also known as Egyptian-Wahhabi War, Ottoman-Saudi War, Egyptian-Saudi War)... All these titles are used in books and websites, and should be mentioned at the beginning of the article, in accordance with WP:NPOV.--TheEagle107 (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article’s name

There is no term called Wahhabi، it is neither sectarian nor a name for nationality, this term is used by anti-Saudi groups As a kind of criticism or attack, As for the controversy over the use of the name (Saudi), this is the real and common name and it was used by the British in documents in the 19th century, in addition to that (Saudi) represents the name of the ruling family that has been ruling the country since 1744, If you notice that there are articles on Wikipedia named "First Saudi State" and "Second Saudi State" though there is no country called Saudi Arabia at that time, so the real name for the article should be “Saudi-Ottoman” war. Aziz bm (talk) 11:19, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The term "Wahhabi" refers to the followers of the religious doctrine preached by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, there is nothing inherently "anti-saudi" about it's use. The state ruled by the Saudi family was referred to at the time as "Emirate of Diriyah", the term "first Saudi State" is a retroactive classification. The motivations behind the war were also expressly religious, not national, including this with the fact that other Nejd tribes aside from the Saudi family also participated in the conflict in support of the Wahhabi ideology making the proposed "Ottoman - Saudi War" much less adequate in describing the conflict, the phrasing "Ottoman - Wahhabi War" is more accurate and contains no implications that would bring into question the neutrality of the arti

Name Change

We should change the name to the Ottoman-Wahhabi War, because just "Wahhabi War" is very bland and is probably not the greatest title to this conflict. PanjshirLions (talk) 10:05, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

TheEagle107 Elaborate specifically where the article is not neutral and does not correspond with the sources. Both Ottoman and Wahhabite persepctives are represented. A totally pro-Ottoman article regurgitating their anti-Wahhabi themes is not acceptable by the Neutrality standards. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) Shadowwarrior8 (talk)

Shadowwarrior8 Represent all point of views neutrally and with due weight, even if you disagree with the view. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. Can you tell me what is the reason for adding this phrase "Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab, the leader of the Wahhabi Reformation"?!--TheEagle107 (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TheEagle107 This is a war article and one state's view cannot be asked to be overly promoted, in this case, Ottomans. "popular" , "minority" etc these are subjective terms. Any objective evidence that Ottoman view is most popular? Infact Ottoman invasion is viewed negatively in arab circles. Promoting a Turkish nationalist view of the conflict cannot be accepted.

As for the phrase the leader of the Wahhabi Reformation", it signifies the theological background underlying the conflict. Ideas of Wahhabites perceived as "Reformist" in that context , vs what was considered "Traditional" by wide majority of Muslims. It is relevant since the conflict was justified on that basis by either parties. (talk) 12:30, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Egypt Eyalet Suggestion

Ottoman Empire should be listed above where it says Egypt Eyalet. PanjshirLions (talk) 07:24, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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