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Split proposed

I think the Effects on wildlife section of this article is disproportionately long and detailed compared to the rest of the article. I think it makes sense to split this to Impact of feral cats on wildlife, and include a brief summary of it on this article, potentially as a subsection of a "Controversy" section or similar. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: we can split the article; however, the suggested article title is wrong. Both domestic cats and feral cats have an impact on wildlife. We should make the title more generic, ex. "Cat predation on wildlife". As humans urbanize we are pushing out natural predators of vermin, such as foxes, coyotes, etc, and cats are providing a service to humans, i.e. cat predation on wildlife is not always bad! The new article should not be hateful and mean spirited toward cats; and in particular toward feral cats, it is often not their fault they have had to go wild! IQ125 (talk) 11:01, 20 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I've split it off to Cat predation on wildlife. It, and the remaining section in this article, could use some attention, but it's a start. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I moved hybridisation back. It's not the same things as predation. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:51, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Lead image

@IQ125: I notice you changed the image in the lead from File:Feral cat 1.JPG to File:Gatos_de_Galicia.gif. Do we know that all the cats in that GIF are feral? I don't see any indication in the image description(s). GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@GorillaWarfare: For your interest: Article IQ125 (talk) 19:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@IQ125: Thanks for the article. Do you have any comments on the lead image? GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:31, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The image was posted under the category feral cats. 10:32, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm not seeing it in that category. I think the image should be changed back to the previous image, which we know is a feral cat, and also shows the tipped ear. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Taxobox

The taxobox is as per Wikispecies and I think it is good to have for less knowledgeable readers! In addition, there are plenty of citations at Google Scholar.IQ125 (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Folks who wish to learn about cats as a species (as opposed to feral cats as a phenomenon) can head over to the cat article, which I've added as a wikilink to the lead. This aligns with what is being done in other articles, such as Free-ranging dog, Feral horse, etc. and other articles about feral animals which are the same species as the domesticated kind. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Latin name

Can you find a specific cite to support that a feral cat is Felis silvestris catus, whereas a domesticated cat is Felis catus? Because I'm finding plenty that use both Latin names for both types of cat. We should not include it in the lead.

GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(@IQ125:) GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@IQ125: Please stop adding this back to the article without discussing it here. See WP:BRD. GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@GorillaWarfare: Please stop removing this from the article without discussing it here. See WP:BRD. IQ125 (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@IQ125: ... are you just trolling here? You made the edit, I disagreed, now it's time to discuss. Per WP:BRD, "Discuss the edit, and the reasons for the edit, on the article's talk page. Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante), but don't engage in back-and-forth reverts because that will probably be viewed as edit-warring." GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:17, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you linked to the Wikispecies entry. Ignoring that wikis are not reliable sources, that page says nothing about feral cats. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This page may be relevant: http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Felis_catus.htm . --Proud User (talk) 23:41, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Proud User: I've undone your edit about feral cats being a variant of the Felis catus species. The difference between feral and domesticated cats is in their environment and behavior; there is no biological difference, as your edit had implied. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:12, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

Rephrased "... able to survive in the wild" to "... self-sufficient."

Every cat, even those who never come outside, is never truly domesticated and can survive with ease in the wild. It would apply to dogs but not to cats. Unless they're purposely misshapen, like the Sphinx cat or the Persian breeds. 2001:1C06:504:3300:C95A:C7F9:C257:6EF (talk) 16:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source to support "Every cat, even those who never come outside, is never truly domesticated and can survive with ease in the wild"? GorillaWarfare (talk) 07:55, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for not backing it up right away. Most of what I know about animals comes from encyclopedia I've read in the past. Here's a link I just looked up. I hope it's sufficient. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/ask-smithsonian-are-cats-domesticated-180955111/ On a separate note, I was being too black and white trying to make a point. I should've written, "Most cats, even those that never come outside, are never truly domesticated and are able to survive in the wild." 217.121.65.15 (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem, thanks for looking up a source. The article you link does seem to support the comment about cats never truly being domesticated. However, I'm only seeing “Cats have retained their hunting skills and they’re less dependent on humans for their source of food,” he said, adding that “with most of the modern breeds of dog, if you were to release them into the wild, most would not survive." While this does seem to imply that the person being quoted believes that many cats (or many breeds of cat? not quite sure) would survive if released, this source does not support the claim that "Most cats, even those that never come outside... are able to survive in the wild." That said, this discussion may be beside the point—I think your change from "able to survive in the wild" to "self-sufficient" is fine, though I'm not sure I see a huge difference in meaning between the two. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's all right then. You most likely have more experience with wikipedia. I may try to find the book that says it. I will get back to it then. Thanks anyway. 217.121.65.15 (talk) 21:53, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good! Thanks for following up and taking the time to find the reference. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:37, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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I'm not interested in edit warring but I object to reverting opposing views.

I am concerned by edit by GorillaWarfare. I added a lot of content to a section that was entirely pro-TNR, and backed my edits up with multiple citations from peer reviewed journals. I did not remove any existing pro-TNR arguments, although I did rephrase one section to reflect that the POV was POV and not an undisputed fact. What was Various long-term studies have shown that TNR is effective in stopping reproduction and reducing the population over time.[33][27][53] became Proponents of TNR argue that it is effective in stopping reproduction and reducing the population over time, with an explanation of why people found the studies inconclusive or wrong further down. The revert included an edit summary statement that beginning the para framing feral cats as "vectors for disease" is not restoring neutrality. There is an already existing section of the article, not written by me, that discusses the zoonotic risks of feral cats. The article I linked to stated that feral cats are controlled for reasons of public health - we can quibble to the cows come home about whether the reason is valid but it is incontestable that cats are controlled for this reason. So I ask that my edits be restored. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:56, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've already responded to your post on this matter on my talk page, but see now you've posted here as well. You're right that it would have been better to reword the content I thought was poorly worded, which I've since done. It's not my intention to remove cited content and studies disputing the effectiveness of TNR—they just need to be represented accurately. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:27, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

History section

Thanks Kb03 for reverting the deletion of content that I added today. Highly appreciated!!!!-- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:55, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No problem @BhagyaMani:. Have a good day!

Changes needed to conform to current data, global info, and to remove poor citations w/unsupportable statements.

Needs updating - various information and citations lack validity Section 1 – definition: The definition is outdated. There is a newer edition to the book that is cited as the basis for the definition. Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Domestic_Cat.html?id=4avCAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=snippet&q=feral%20cats&f=falseCite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). This reference clearly admits the terminology of “feral” is confusing, mentioning that references to free-roaming cats include: feral, semi-feral, lost and abandoned, or owned. (pg 142).

In settling on a definition that is going to be routinely accessed in web searches, it is necessary to establish the controversy about it and to offer one that fits in the framework of the cited materials, some of which use “feral” to encompass any free-roaming cat, others to mean a certain behavior or type of cat, and still others that are simply referring to the members of a colony. (Reference 2 provides a definition right in the citation that is different than what is offered.)


Propose: The definition of "feral cat," as it relates to the domestic cat (felis catus), varies in countries worldwide and even between professions.[1] A 2013 study on some of these variations suggests the following definition to enhance communication regarding the welfare and management of them, as well as providing consistent frames of reference in research and education of the public: "A feral cat is ... a cat that is unapproachable in its free-roaming environment and is capable of surviving with or without direct human intervention, and may additionally show fearful or defensive behaviour on human contact." [1]

A feral cat typically avoids human contact: it does not allow itself to be handled or touched, and usually remains hidden from humans.[2] Some feral cats may become more comfortable with people who regularly feed them, but even with long-term attempts at socialization they usually remain fearful.

References, data, or public information may not make clear distinctions between feral cats, street or community cats, or stray or abandoned cats, although some guidelines are available.[3] Stray and feral cats are generally considered to be different by rescuers, veterinarians, and researchers. Stray cats are cats who were, at one time, socialized to humans but no longer live in homes. They could potentially be successfully reintroduced to a home environment.[4]“

"Attempts to control feral cats are widespread” – no citation or basis for this in the context of the definition. Attempts to control free-roaming cats are widespread - numerous citations avail, refer to TNR article.

Section 2: Definitions: Unnecessary section. The definitions in countries vary according to the agency providing it. Government agencies, NFP organizations, researchers, medical specialists, shelters, NFP cat rescues all may have different ones. Too many countries to list. Too many variations. The 1st section should simple mention the disparities.

Farm Cats – there is already a wiki entry for this. Unneeded repetition. Claim that these cats are “feral or semi-feral” is not substantiated. Followed the citations on the wiki article for Farm Cats after the statement that these cats are “feral” or “semi-feral” -these are not reliable citations (Huff Post. Colorodean, etc) and certainly cannot be used to establish a broad-based definition for all farm cats.

Ships Cat - there is already a wiki entry for this. Inaccurate statement There is no credible citation that establishes these cats were or are “feral” or “semi-feral.” The cited blog even mentions that some of the cats went home with sailors.

More to come ....

References

  1. ^ a b Gosling, Lara; Stavisky, Jenny; Dean, Rachel (2013). "What is a feral cat?: Variation in definitions may be associated with different management strategies". Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery. 15 (9): 759–764. doi:10.1177/1098612X13481034. PMID 23966002.
  2. ^ Liberg, O.; Sandell, M.; Pontier, D.; Natoli, E. (2014). "Density, spatial organisation and reproductive tactics in the domestic cat and other felids". In Turner, D. C.; Bateson, P. (eds.). The domestic cat: the biology of its behaviour (Third ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 119–147. ISBN 9781107025028. {{cite book}}: External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
  3. ^ Sparkes, Andrew H; Bessant, Claire; Cope, Kevin; Ellis, Sarah L H; Finka, Lauren; Halls, Vicky; Hiestand, Karen; Horsford, Kim; Laurence, Christopher (Sep 2013). "ISFM Guidelines on Population Management and Welfare of Unowned Domestic Cats ( Felis catus )". Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery. 15 (9): 811–817. doi:10.1177/1098612X13500431. ISSN 1098-612X.
  4. ^ "Feral and Stray Cats—An Important Difference". Alley Cat Allies. Retrieved 9 March 2016.

Samantha Michaels (talk) 00:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Samantha Michaels: Some of this is probably worth looking into, but it doesn't make much sense to argue that there are conflicting definitions, an alleged "controversy" about them, a real-world recommendation for a consistent definition, and so on, then simultaneously argue that we can't have a section about definitions. That's the opposite of the encyclopedic conclusion we would come to. Second, the fact that something has a separate article doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned or even have a section in another article; see WP:SUMMARY and Template:Main. The way it's being done exactly in this article may need work, though. Third, "some ships' cats went home with sailors" is not incompatible with the idea that some ships cats were essentially feral, though the Ship's cat article is the place to get into that. And if frequent ferality of ship's cats can't be established in sources, then it shouldn't have a section in this article. Farm cats obviously should since they are in fact often feral. The trick is to ensure all details in the section are also in the main article Farm cat, then write a summary of that article in this one (probably a single paragraph).

PS: Some talk page hints: Your sig goes at the end of your post, not the top. It's not clear what in the above material is you talking to us as editors, and what is intended to be replacement article content. You can bracket the latter with something like {{block indent}}.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:14, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Farm cats are in fact often feral" = a conclusion based on what facts? and in what country? The citations that are used in this section do not support generalities.

Samantha Michaels (talk) 01:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree with SMcCandlish: if several differing country-specific definitions exist, they need to be referred to and referenced, but definitely NOT deleted in favour of just one. I also find the int links to and summaries of farm and ship cats very useful; would probably not have read these pages yet without the links provided here! I also think that some sections can be improved, both in content and references: there are at least 60 peer-reviewed articles to choose from instead of referencing websites. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 02:54, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Think entire rewrite or major changes are needed.

Samantha Michaels (talk) 01:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC) Many of these citations are incorrect - the references are clearly about "free-roaming cats" or "community cats" which encompasses feral, strays (owned but either escaped, lost, or allowed to roam) and/or abandoned or dumped cats. The last categories may or may not be feral. Some are citations of web-based pages that give no references. For some that do, back-tracking to the actual citation shows that the quoted section is arbitrarily edited and misleading. Some citations are simply not verifiable (not available).[reply]

The photo captioned "a colony of feral cats" is misleading. The source simply notes these as "stray" cats - they may or may not be feral.

I did do an entire rewrite, posted it, and clearly mis-stepped doing so because it was deleted. I followed all the old citations/references. Even went within them and backtracked internally referenced citations. I deleted unsupported info and added more current citations. I'm fine with none or any or all of it being used, but very much want to see this article more reflective of Wiki standards of reliable references/sources with clarification on how "feral" is referred to as opposed to "free-roaming" or "stray."

A prime example is the highlighted teaching point on the header of this page stating a feral cat's lifespan of being 2 years. I could find NO study that supports or claims that. Some studies give the lifespans of the cats they followed, but this included all "free-roaming" or "community cats" in the study (not necessarily "feral") and is only based on the ones that didn't disappear. The citation in the main article on lifespan leads to the ASPCA's website, which is about "community cats." They define these as: "Cats born and raised in the wild." and "Cats who have been abandoned or lost and turned to wild ways in order to survive." The 1st potion - "born in the wild" - is likely feral, the second may or may not be. This ASPCA page does not use the word "feral." They do not provide any references/citations for info in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samantha Michaels (talk • contribs) 01:57, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Stray cat, "community cat" (a euphemism), and feral cat are all the same thing, which is a cat living outdoors with no owner. Of the three, the term "feral cat" is less POV and more encyclopedic, it's the one you find in the best sources, such as this one [1]. I'm not particularly interested in what jargon the ASPCA uses, as they're an advocacy organization. Geogene (talk) 19:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion - Articles on ferals appear a wee bit biased.

This is an opinion on these articles and you can do with it what you will. I came here looking to cite this article on my website and I was hugely disappointed that the debate between eradicating feral cats and TNR feral cats is continuing even on this article. It is not impartial at all. Even the TNR article, which is supposed to be about what the TNR proponents support is biased as if it's 'unproven' or weird alternative health suggestion like Reiki or Yoga or anti-vaxxer stuff.

I'm actually shocked by this. Wikipedia isn't supposed to be showing bias, which is why it's an open edited project. But this article is seriously lacking. Anyone who's wanting to destroy millions of animals would be happy by this article.

I'm not up to doing the research and siting independent sources for the article as I have other projects I'm doing. So I am giving the current editors my opinion on this pages bias and hope that your integrity in creating accurate articles is prodded to do research on the other side of the argument, or even look into the experts in those fields.

These are the reasons I feel this article is biased, though there does seem to be an attempt to remove the bias in some places, for example:

1. It's very obvious when there are sited tons of anti-feral studies as fact but anything that proponents of TNR site is 'claimed' even backed by proof. There are even quotation marks around anything that supports TNR.

2. When you go through the edits for this page, I even saw one comment by an editor using PETA's tagline about "re-abandonment" which clearly SHOWS the editor's bias on that.

3. One study that is sited that compares TNR and euthanasia together with different immigration rates was stated that "culling is more effective' when immigration was not controlled, which is not what it said, I looked: It said the numbers are comparable for both when the immigration rates are 0%, but in simple English, it says, "Euthanasia required higher treatment effort than TNR" when immigration is NOT 0%. That's a direct quote, btw. I haven't checked them all, but one study quoted wrong leads me to suspect the whole article.

The UK's Royal Society for the Protection of Birds even admits there is no scientific basis for cats being the cause of declining bird populations and the humans and climate change are the biggest causes and that cats are more of a danger to GARDEN birds: https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/animal-deterrents/cats-and-garden-birds/are-cats-causing-bird-declines/

There was a study done on the effectiveness of culling (which is an attempt to not horrify people by calling it killing) in Tasmania where they were concerned because it wasn't working: http://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/WR14030

Every time this article mentions any study about the effectiveness of TNR or the non-effectiveness of culling, it seems they quickly throw out that TNR encourages people to abandon more pets so it's ineffective, or that they can't prove more cats weren't moving out, or they use "this" to emphasize it's just an opinion.

And while I did give up halfway through this article, I didn't see one section on why TNR actually is effective in a lot of cases, "the vacuum effect." TNR'd cats actually keep out other cats from moving in. Nature abhors a vacuum and even when a species becomes extinct, other species quickly come in to fill that niche. It's common in anything in wildlife. If a niche needs filled, nature ensures other species do it. Established colonies reduce the number of free-roaming cats moving in. I've seen this with my own eyes. It doesn't help when people are DUMPING kittens in areas, but it helps keep out the free-roaming unfixed cats.

I'm a logical person and I believe scientific facts and what I've observed with my own eyes. I've seen the effectiveness of TNR and I've seen what happens when a cat colony is destroyed. I read studies and then I also go with the studies that support my own experiences. I have my own opinions. I also understand in some instances feral cats are a very real menace, like in Australia and New Zealand, because of their ecology. The issue is NOT black or white, and I want impartial evidence, not this... whatever this article and the TNR article is.

I understand *I* am a little biased, so I always go to BOTH sides of a debate to see the fact before I make a decision. I'm hugely disappointed this article is very much tilted towards the destructiveness of feral cats and not impartial at all, even using a study inaccurately. You can do with my opinion what you wish, but please, actually research the other side too to create articles here that are well-rounded, especially when it's regarding the actual term people who support the method used.

Thanks for your time.

Selenityjade (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. It's time to unlock the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.228.95 (talk) 13:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with you. I felt the same way when I recently tried to add information on the new trend to support TNR, as well as the philosophical changes on how feral cats are viewed, which also supports TNR. It was great seeing this postJmm26 (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2021 (UTC)! Jmm26 (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since this complaint is, unfortunately, still attracting commentary, I would just like to point out that the Selenityjade account only ever made a single edit to a Wikipedia article, this edit [2], in which the user was tacitly encouraging people to potentially expose themselves to rabies. This fails MEDRS and, in my mind, it's both harmful and incompetent enough that it discredits all of this user's opinions about the article. It's possible that that edit is linked to this news item from about seven months before [3], in which 13 people (!) had to receive rabies prophylaxis after being bitten or scratched by four rabid stray cats in Florida. TNR was implicated as a possible factor in the re-emergence of rabies there. Geogene (talk) 03:28, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Short description

Geogene, Qwertyxp2000, Quisqualis, obviously this article needs a short description. Everyone can talk about what it should be in this section instead of doing that over and over. Invasive Spices (talk) 18:34, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The edit summary I gave here [4] is perfectly clear on my position. I'm not a grammarian, and am flexible on whatever the specific wording comes out to be, as long as it's factually accurate. I was thanked by two other editors for that edit, so I know that Qwertyxp2000 needs to develop a consensus. Geogene (talk) 18:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not very sure if "un-owned domestic cat" is sufficient, because feral cats are basically domestic cats who returned to wild instincts. Not sure what else to say about this short description stuff. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:00, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The earlier "domestic cat that has returned to the wild" strikes me as an adequate definition. The bit about "unowned" is both unencyclopedic and, a bit, ridiculous, in light of the feline worldview. "One that lives in the wild but is descended from domesticated specimens" is the Wikipedia definition of a feral life form. Perhaps "domestic cat that lives in the wild"?--Quisqualis (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What is a feline worldview? Only human beings have worldviews. Cats aren't people, and aren't wildlife. Most feral cats aren't living in "the wild," they live around human disturbance, and are either intentionally fed by people, or are eating rubbish. Geogene (talk) 23:47, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If a short description is needed, then let's keep it short : just *feral cat*. All else like adding 'returning to the wild' is too long and superfluous. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ownership has nothing to do with whether a cat is feral. Meters (talk) 23:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then there's a problem with the first sentence in the Lead. Geogene (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. I don't know when 'un-owned' was added, but it's not needed. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 03:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's probably been there since 2014, because it passes verification. The source given for it (The Domestic Cat: The Biology of Its Behaviour, 2nd edition) does clearly use the term feral to distinguish un-owned cats from owned ones. The total cat population includes both owned (pet) and unowned (stray or feral) cats, but it is difficult to establish their proportions..... [5]. A quick look at Google Scholar shows that sources there are using 'feral' to mean 'un-owned' there as well. Geogene (talk) 03:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The ref does not equate "unowned" with "feral". I read it as meaning that unowned cats are either strays or feral. Meters (talk) 05:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is a direct statement that feral cats are unowned, and it's a perfectly viable interpretation that it's equating "stray" and "feral" as well. Geogene (talk) 06:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. It's not about whether the cat is owned. It's simply about how the cat lives. Most feral cats are unowned, but they don't have to be unowned, and some (or even many) unowned cats are feral, but that does not mean that any unowned cat is feral. If someone releases their owned cats into their large property (with cat-proof fences) and lets them fend for themselves, eventually the result will be a colony of feral cats which that person owns (assuming they can find food, shelter, etc.). And, on the other hand, a stray cat that lives under someone's porch and is fed and watered by that person is neither owned by that person nor feral. Even if you argue that the person taking care of the cat has de facto ownership, what if the person dies? It does not suddenly become a feral cat overnight because the person feeding it has died. Once again you have a stray cat that is neither owned nor feral. I can quote proper definitions of "feral" (such as the Oxford English Dictionary's "animals or plants that have lapsed into a wild from a domesticated condition") that make no mention of ownership, and do not rely on assumptions about what is meant. Meters (talk) 06:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware that you disagree. Nevertheless, you are reading it as unowned (stray or and feral) cats which is a misreading of the source. Geogene (talk) 07:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not misreading anything. It says "unowned (stray or feral)". I'm interpreting that as meaning an unowned cat can be one that is stray, or one that is feral. Why don't you show us real definition of "feral" that is dependent on the ownership status of the cat? Meters (talk) 07:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your change of the description to simply "Un-owned domestic cat" is not valid. An unowned stay cat in the pound is not a feral cat. Period. Meters (talk) 07:38, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What? A cat in the pound is owned by the pound, obviously. Look up the surrender paperwork of any shelter of your choice, it will say that when you bring them an animal you are permanently conveying ownership. Geogene (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Attempting to get this back on track, I've checked a new source, Cat Wars (Marra and Santella, 2016, Princeton University Press). It says, The term "feral" is often used as a catchall for outside cats, though it technically should apply only to animals that have completely returned to the wild, have no reliance upon humans for any sustenance or shelter, and reject any interaction with humans. Other descriptors for outside cats encountered in an urban or suburban environment include "semi-owned," "street," "stray," "colony," and "neighborhood," all of which imply a level of human dependence and thus are more accurate. The waters are further muddied by the fact that many "house" or "pet" or "owned" cats are allowed to wander outside, some for as long as they wish. (p.43). The fact that these terms are being muddled in the real world is why I'm not interested in strict OED definitions, and why I am interested in distinguishing between outdoor cats that are owned and those that aren't. Geogene (talk) 07:54, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a source saying a term is sometimes used inaccurately in a particular way should be used as a reason for following that inaccurate use. The quoted text says what a feral cat is and gives alternatives for other cat life-styles. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Here's another source following the same convention. (Levy et.al. "Humane strategies for controlling the feral cat population. Journal of the American Verterinary Medical Association, 2004) The lines between loosely owned outdoor cats, tame strays, and feral cats are often blurred. Owned cats that wander or become lost may become stray cats. Stray cats that have lived in the wild for an extended time may become feral. Homeless cats may be adopted. Thus, individual cats may occupy different categories at various stages of their lives. For the purposes of this discussion, “feral cat” will be used to denote any unconfined, unowned cat, regardless of its socialization status. As a Wikipedia editor, it isn't your place to decide if a term is used "incorrectly" in the sources. You must use the English language as the rest of the world does. Geogene (talk) 08:27, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am following the source, which says the catchall use is technically wrong and inaccurate. You are the one distorting the meaning of the sources (here and above about the stray or owned). The last source puts feral cat in quotes to describe how they will use it so makes it clear that this is not a widely accepted definition. —  Jts1882 | talk  09:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources, and the real world, don't define the term the way you think they should. You're wrong, not them, and what you're doing here is disruptive (WP:IDHT). Here's another example. (Population characteristics of feral cats admitted to seven trap-neuter-return programs in the United States. Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery (2006) Wallace and Levy.) Because both owned and unowned cats are frequently free-roaming without identification, the line is often blurred regarding classification of loosely owned outdoor cats, tame strays, and unsocialized feral cats (Levy and Crawford 2004). For the purpose of this study, feral cats were defined as any unowned free-roaming cat, regardless of a wild or tame socialization status. Geogene (talk) 15:06, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources don't make the points you say they do. Pointing this out is not disruptive, it is an attempt to stop misleading information being added to the article. Poorly thought out Wikilawyering doesn't strengthen your arguments. Both those studies (with same author) say for the purposes of their study they use the loose definition, not that it is the most accurate or only definition. —  Jts1882 | talk  15:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And, here's yet another source (Feral Cats and their Management, University of Nebraska Lincoln Extension) that uses un-owned in its definition. This one actually uses a table to distinquish between feral, free ranging, limited range, and indoor cats, based on whether the cats are owned or not, indoors or not, and tame or not. Quote: Feral cats are domestic cats that have gone wild (figure 1)....Today, domestic cats can be classified into four categories (indoor, limited range, free range, or feral), based on whether they are owned, tame or acclimated to human contact, and allowed to roam extensively outside (table 1)....Feral cats are not owned and therefore have reverted to a wild state. They frequently exhibit aggressive or avoidance behavior around people. [6]. Geogene (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


  • Proposal the first sentence and short description of the article should say that a feral cat is an unowned or unsocialized domestic cat living outdoors. Or perhaps a free ranging unowned or unsocialized domestic cat? Geogene (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. This is a basic logic error. "Feral cats are not owned" does not mean that all unowned cats are feral. Just take unowned out of the definition. The important thing is the way feral cats have returned to the wild, not whether or not they are owned. Meters (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, sources disagree with you on that, as I've already demonstrated. Further, what do you consider to be "the wild," anyway? Do you think that, as "wild animals," they have owners? I find that a logical contradiction. Geogene (talk) 19:19, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you insisting that we must use "unowned"? The definition is fuzzy. Some people include that term and some don't. We don't need to use it, it is not the defining characteristic, and is not always true (a stray cat that is being cared for is not owned, and not feral). Again, "just take unowned out of the definition." Meters (talk) 19:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because it appears to be an essential component of the definition? Why are you insisting that we can't? Where are your sources? Geogene (talk) 19:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Further, since you acknowledged that my sources do use the term unowned, what is your objection to the first option I gave above, an unowned OR unsocialized domestic cat living outdoors? Geogene (talk) 20:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commentary on edits by Jmm26

Regarding this revert [7], some problems are:

  • Who are the American Association of Feline Practitioners, and why do they deserve so much WP:WEIGHT? As far as I can tell, they're a chapter of the AVMA, and one with unusually strong views about euthanizing healthy feral cats. In 2016, it seems they tried to get the AVMA to drop its conditional non-opposition to euthanizing feral cats [8] and failed. It appears that their proposal failed 94.2% to 5.8% [9]. This implies that their position on euthanizing feral cats is a fringe view within the AVMA.
  • The statement The non-lethal Trap-Neuter-Return approach is now being supported by veterinarians and nonprofit organizations all over the nation, as well as over 550 local laws. is written like a press release or promotional ad.
  • The statement This growing support and trend towards managing and controlling the feral cat population in a more humane, non-lethal TNR approach is similarly promotional in tone, and also POV because not everyone agrees that TNR is humane.
  • The text goes on to make POV claims about "zoocentric ethics" in Wikipedia's voice, claims which are heavily disputed in the literature.
  • The POV being presented in WP's voice is sourced to an alleged (by his opponents) pro-TNR lobbyist working for Best Friends Animal Society [10] and is being published in a controversial Frontiers Media journal.
  • Why don't we use TNR to control the rat population, and do birds have the same rights that cats allegedly do under "zoocentric ethics"? Geogene (talk) 02:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In addition to your comments : this section on TNR is anyway quite long, so not necessary to add more web-based statements, imo. And in view of the link to trap-neuter-return, some of this verbose part can perhaps even be moved to this other page. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Geogene, I agree with all your points here. Neutralitytalk 15:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commentary Regarding Possibly False, Definitely Biased Picture text

  • One of the statements under a picture of a cat is, "Feral cats are an invasive species and one of the greatest threats to native wildlife." This is objectively false, as it is widely accepted by science that without cats, the world would be overrun with rodents. They are not an "invasive" specie to 90+% of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:2308:470:3def:7fcd:8469:1dcd (talk) 10:18, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You could argue that feral cats and any domestic cats are an invasive species anywhere outside the Middle East, but I agree the statement is inaccurate as a generalisation and factual questionable, at best unsourced. It's editorialising rather than encyclopaedic so should be changed. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Feral cats belong to a distinct species (Felis catus) that is fully separate from F. sylvestris, the African and European wildcats that are the closest wild relatives [11]. As a domestic species that evolved to live with people, they have no native range [12]. Geogene (talk) 22:22, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BhagyaMani: Regarding this revert [13]:
  • The caption does seem relevant for the image.
  • WP:BAREURL says that There is nothing wrong with adding bare URL references to Wikipedia. If you only have time and inclination to copy the reference URL you found, we thank you for your contribution!
  • I used bare URLs in this case because I thought it so obvious that it's WP:SKYISBLUE territory, meaning you should not have demanded the sources in the first place. (I'm sure all the sources you need are *already* in the body of the article)
  • The comment by the IP above that precipitated this is pseudoscientific nonsense. Geogene (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request 20 February 2022

Since towns and cities are part of these animals' range, Category:Urban wildlife seems appropriate. 151.177.58.208 (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Information incomplete

I think this wiki doesn’t include a neutral and completed information about the feral cat. The author is only talking about one case that some unowned cats don’t like to be with people so they would rather live in the wild world. However, there’re some unowned cat which is stray cat which means that they’re being homeless might be abandoned by their pet owner and they dont have any ability to feed themselves. Moreover, the author holds a strong opinions on the feral cat which choose the article about how it have negative impact on the wild animals. Moreover, the topic is only limiting in the range of western country. The author didnt talk about the stray cat situation in Asia especially like Japan and China. In my opinion, I think stray cat and feral cat are two different topic based on my own research and knowledge. I think they’re both under the topic about unowned cat but they should be separated.X5mao (talk) 07:23, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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