Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism

The Image of Palm Sunday "Tridentine Mass"

The caption on the image of a priest celebrating Palm Sunday is inaccurate, because it says "Tridentine." The image is actually from a celebration of the post 1955 rites. In the Tridentine rite, the color assigned to Palm Sunday was purple. In 1955 it was changed to red. Perhaps this picture is no longer appropriate for this article. In recent years, traditionalist communities in good standing with Rome have been given permission to celebrate the pre-1955 (that is, the Tridentine) rites. This image, which represents a transitional version of the liturgy, might become obselete.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.186.22 (talk • contribs)

You raise a more fundamental question: What does "Tridentine Mass" mean. You seem to apply it to the form of Mass mandated by Pius V in 1570. Others apply it to the variants of that form adopted by later Popes, especially by Pope John XXIII in 1962, in editions of the Roman Missal that in their titles still claimed to have been authorized by the Council of Trent. Bealtainemí (talk) 07:00, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Both are Tridentine, but the 1955 Tridentine Mass was used during two short periods in history. Perhaps an image with purple vestments would better suit both the contemporary and historical expression of the Mass. --Valepio (talk) 21:00, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

The whole "Mass wars" thing shouldn't even be on this page beyond a brief mention. Wikipedia isn't a place to hash out theology or extremely niche areas that are better discussed elsewhere. This could easily be summarized by saying something like, "Traditional Catholics use the Roman Missal and Pontifical that were used prior to the changes in the late 1960s, with disagreements between groups on which books to use" and then cite sources that argue back and forth about it. There is no need to get into extreme levels of detail here, and detailed liturgical book discussion is really something that could take a life of research just into that topic.

Non-infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium

The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is only infallible when it is either presenting teachings that are "Dogmas of divine and catholic faith" (that is, doctrines that are divinely and formally revealed) or "Definitive teachings on faith and morals" (that is, teachings [by the magisterium] that are not proposed as being revealed). The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium can be non-infallible when it is presenting "Non-definitive teachings of the magisterium" Ex: Gaudium et Spes 24 claims "love of God and neighbor is the first and greatest commandment", this is false as Jesus taught that "love of God is the first and greatest commandment", love of neighbor is the second greatest commandment. So under "Responses to traditionalists' claims", the final counterpoint seems to be false. https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1998_professio-fidei_en.html MysticSoothsayer (talk) 03:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

"Indult Catholic" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Indult Catholic and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 21#Indult Catholic until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 15:46, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

"Indult Catholics" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Indult Catholics and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 21#Indult Catholics until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Old archive list

See Talk:Traditionalist Catholicism/Archives for an old archive list of this page, from before the archives were rearranged. Graham87 11:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Rewriting of Entire Page

This entire article should be rewritten by a neutral source. It's wildly biased and is obviously written by people within the movement who are arguing over extremely minor and inconsequential issues.

Ignored is how much this entire movement is based on literary cherry picking. Leaders within this movement arbitrarily select texts from before the 1960s to compare against documents after the 1960s, but when you have 2000 years of stuff piled up, you can create anything you want (proof texting becomes infinite with this much material). This is now done with Youtube videos and memes. There's nothing serious going on here, it's all trickery and deception (as it's been since the 1960s), and totally ignores the scholarship done since the 1990s that has been accepted by everyone outside of the Traditional Catholic movement.

Any what of all the abuse that's happened within the Trad Cat movement? That deserves its own page for abuse common to the SSPX, FSSP, and independent groups. Much of the abuse is happening within Trad Cat marriages based on Trad Cat theology.

First off, the world "Traditionalist" implies perennial philosophy, which is something else entirely (though there is some overlap in the two, with figures such as Coomaraswamy in the mix). A better renaming of the page would be "Traditional Roman Catholic" as this is a label the group itself has generally assumed. The various names of the Mass are inconsequential and meaningless. The focus on terminology is also meaningless and a distraction. What's more important are the ideas that are common to the whole movement, and this is nearly completely ignored. When the movement got started, the focus was not on Vatican II, but was instead a worry over changes in the culture happening in the 1960s, like music, communism, and clothing. A big focus was that everyone was going to hell, and we are the "remnant church." Most Traditional Catholics are largely motivated by wanting to return to a 1950s lifestyle, and a very specific focus on certain ways-of-life practiced in the 1950s. Also there's a big focus on a small number of very specific things, which are a random selection of items popular among some Catholics in the early 20th century, such as Marian apparitions, certain saints popular in the 1950s, hand missals (a blip in time in Catholic history, but huge with Traditional Catholics), women's "modesty" clothing, anti-Communism, Marian devotions, and very specific items such as "Holy Slavery" or "Total Consecration."

Traditional Catholics attempt to claim they are holding to the "true Catholic faith" when in reality it's a very specific subculture and really a separate thing that never even existed in the 1950s like this.

G4wa5r4gasag (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)