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I think East Jerusalem's population might just scrape ahead of Gaza's in theory - the bigger question being whether that population counts in this context. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:16, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
De jure
I removed this language from the lead, @Daveout: reverted with an invalid reason "Palestine is not de facto sovereign and this is important to stress since they're actively fighting for that" that also did not address the given reasons for removal, so I removed it again. Happy to discuss it more fully here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but removing the 'de jure' before 'sovereign' is 100% bullshit. Everybody knows that Palestine is not really sovereign because of the occupation. That is one of their own main complaints. (and 'de jure' in this case obviously means *only* de jure, as not de facto). –Daveout(talk) 10:44, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I already started a discussion above so I will merge it here to avoid confusion. Selfstudier (talk) 10:45, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"100% bullshit"? Please explain which WP policy this refers to.
Everybody knows that Palestine is not really sovereign because of the occupation I don't know that although I agree it is occupied.
'de jure' in this case obviously means *only* de jure, as not de facto Why is that obvious?
I am contesting the inclusion of the material and I provided reasons to which you have not responded with anything other than your opinion. The need is to justify the inclusion of the phrase "de jure" which merely means "legal". Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's one view. As far as the 137 UN member states that recognized it are concerned, it is a sovereign state. Although WP is not a source, it is included at List of sovereign states. It is a state party with UNESCO, UNCTAD as well as a state observer at the UN. The International Criminal Court debated ad nauseam the entire issue of whether Palestine was qualified to file with the court ultimately finding in its favor despite many objections from the usual suspects) so that view appears to be in the minority as well as having been overtaken by events at the ICC. All this is straightforwardly found in any number of sources. Selfstudier (talk) 12:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
De jure, recognition, it has some. In terms of being a sovereign state, there is no credible claim that Palestine controls its territory or has centralized government. It fails the definition. Philip Leech wrote: "despite winning overwhelming support from members of the UN General Assembly in 2012, the Palestinian national project stalled once again and the new ‘State of Palestine’ that emerged lacked independence, territorial integrity and sovereignty". Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 12:23, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And what's the issue? The article already makes it clear that its territory is occupied. Jeppiz (talk) 12:30, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jeppiz, this edit changed "de jure sovereign state" which was there to begin with to "sovereign state". Palestine does not have actual sovereignty, so saying it in this way is a problem. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is only you and one source saying it is not a sovereign state, the fact that it is occupied is entirely separate from that. It fails the definition What definition? Selfstudier (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Amici curiae filings made by eight states parties, Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary and Uganda argued that the ICC did not have jurisdiction on the grounds that Palestine is not a state.[2] Along with the US and Israel via proxies. Their objections were overruled in court. Selfstudier (talk) 13:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is the statement that Palestine is sovereign (without caveat), which is untrue. And the only source that supposedly supports that claim doesn't even say that Palestine is sovereign. It only says that it was promoted from "entity" to "non-member state" at UN. Selfstudier stop bullshiting. –Daveout(talk) 13:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please see WP:NPA, particularly WP:AVOIDYOU, and WP:CIVIL. You can make your point without being intentionally insulting. And if you cannot then you may be asked to not make your point at all. nableezy - 22:29, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is a de jure sovereign state, not de facto, and this is backed by numerous reliable sources, in fact you can find four in Legal status of the State of Palestine, which states " there is a general consensus that the State of Palestine is de jure sovereign.[3][4][5][6]" Plenty more sources can be found on this [1][2][3] and these are just three additional ones I found in a few minutes. Bill Williams 13:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"It is a de jure sovereign state" just means it is a legal sovereign state and since all sovereign states are legal, it is redundant. The 4 sources you give are hopelessly out of date, 1990, 1997, 2009 and 2011 (an oped) all predate Palestine becoming an observer state at the UN. Of the additional 3, the first is not an RS (it looks like they just copied from WP), the second is again out of date and the third supports what I am saying. Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Leech, Philip (2016). The State of Palestine: A critical analysis(PDF). Routledge. p. 5. However, some five years on from these events, and despite winning overwhelming support from members of the UN General Assembly in 2012, the Palestinian national project stalled once again and the new 'State of Palestine' that emerged lacked independence, territorial integrity and sovereignty
^Journal of International Criminal Justice, Volume 18, Issue 4, September 2020, Pages 905–925, doi:10.1093/jicj/mqaa049
^Segal, Jerome M., Chapter 9, "The State of Palestine, The Question of Existence", in Philosophical perspectives on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Tomis Kapitan editor, M.E. Sharpe, 1997, ISBN1-56324-878-6.
^Boyle, Francis A. Creation of the State of Palestine; 1 Eur. J. Int'l L. 301 (1990)
^Kearney, Michael and Denayer, Stijn, Al-Haq Position Paper on Issues Arising from the Palestinian Authority's Submission of a Declaration to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court Under Article 12(3) of the Rome Statute (24 December 2009), para 43.a.
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Should the first sentence of the lead include the phrase de jure (as in "Palestine... is a de jure sovereign state"). Selfstudier (talk) 13:47, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
!Vote
Yes, at a minimum, but political entity is better. Palestine has some recognition by other states, but it is not sovereign by any normal definition: "the new ‘State of Palestine’ that emerged lacked independence, territorial integrity and sovereignty"[1] saying it is a "sovereign state" is not verifiable or neutral. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 14:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither - it should just say state. It is not "some recognition", Palestine is in fact widely recognized. It does not exercise sovereignty over its territory, as even Area A remains occupied territory under Israel's military rule. That some of that rule has been outsourced to the PNA (now calling itself the state) hasnt changed that. Avoid this entirely and say Palestine is a state. de jure is redundant, all states are de jure states. This also could have been done without an RFC. nableezy - 14:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but it seems an odd question divorced from the rest of the opening paragraph/lead. It is potentially a useful adjective highlighting a unique situation, but it's not so common and well-known a term to a general reader that it could replace a slightly longer explanation elsewhere in the lead. Thus the inclusion or lack of doesn't seem that important. CMD (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither as per Nableezy. Looking at other articles, the most common working by far is to say that "X is a state". So drop both de jure and sovereign to say Palestine is a state. Jeppiz (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Prefer partially recognizedUN observer state but otherwise yes to dejure. The State of Palestine is verifiably not sovereign, since sovereign means having control of the territory, united political structure, and freedom to make decisions, which is stuff Palestine lacks now. The "Neither" proposal will have the article saying "the State of Palestine is a state" which is bad phrasing, besides also being a contested statement, it is partially recognized and not admitted as a regular state to the UN. Writing "partially recognized UN observer state" in the first sentence accurately summarizes the degree of recognition that Palestine has. PrisonerB (talk) 12:45, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss
Do you even have any RS saying tha Palestine is sovereign? –Daveout(talk) 14:00, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At a guess, this remark is directed at myself, this is a discussion among editors in general, so WP:AVOIDYOU and ask the question without personalization. eg "Are there RS saying that Palestine is sovereign?". Selfstudier (talk) 14:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
it is not sovereign by any normal definition I will repeat the question posed in the RFCbefore, what definition? Nor do I have any idea what "normal" means in this context. Normal according to who? Selfstudier (talk) 14:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thus the inclusion or lack of doesn't seem that important It was important enough to be reverted back in three times, probably with more to follow, hence the RFC. The principal argument being put forward in support of inclusion is that de jure somehow signifies non sovereign, which of course it doesn't. While occasionally claiming that Israel should be sovereign (as well as acting as if they are), Israel has variously proposed that Jordan is the sovereign or that there isn't a sovereign. Needless to say all three of these ideas have virtually no support in the international community and begs the question, if SoP is not sovereign, then what entity is? Selfstudier (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is not the argument that was put forward as I read it. What I read was that adding de jure provides an indication that de facto sovereignty is lacking, which is one of those rare facts in this topic that everyone seems to agree on. However, as I mentioned, I do not think adding de jure is enough to convey this point to a general reader. CMD (talk) 15:51, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sovereignty is defined by the exercise of absolute authority over a territory. Palestine does not do that. But the argument on de jure misses that point entirely. All states are de jure states, what makes them sovereign states is the exercise of sovereignty. nableezy - 15:57, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Leech, Philip (2016). The State of Palestine: A critical analysis(PDF). Routledge. p. 5. However, some five years on from these events, and despite winning overwhelming support from members of the UN General Assembly in 2012, the Palestinian national project stalled once again and the new 'State of Palestine' that emerged lacked independence, territorial integrity and sovereignty
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